Honestly, I’d personally just rule that familiars can’t attune since, no matter how you slice it, you’re opening the door to a lot of shenanigans if the player functionally has three extra slots to play around with that operate independently.
I agree with that, and as a DM myself. Say this comes out to one of my games, how do I disallow this without just saying no?
Heh. You obviously don't have kids. Once you become a parent "because I said so" becomes a much more reasonable explanation for everything.
A simple, that's not the way it works in my world, should suffice. If it doesn't, it's a sign of a much bigger problem with whichever player doesn't accept it.
I agree with that, and as a DM myself. Say this comes out to one of my games, how do I disallow this without just saying no?
Just say so, to be honest. Just say "That's a bunch of extra attunement slots and too OP for a 1st level spell. You can use the familiar to do whatever it can RAW, like scouting or using the help for example, but it's not going to be able to use magic items that require attunement like that". It doesn't need to get complicated, just tell them no, it's pushing the rules too far to keep any semblance of balance.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If your a player, and you are using your abilities fairly, according to RAW. and the DM just comes up to you and says "No, you cannot do that anymore" how would you feel?
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"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
If your a player, and you are using your abilities fairly, according to RAW. and the DM just comes up to you and says "No, you cannot do that anymore" how would you feel?
I might feel like, well, I guess the DM isn’t going to let me just exploit the rules to make an overpowered character. Turns out playing with a live DM is different from a video game. 😀 Every table that’s ever played has used house rules. To be fair, you tell the players that up front, so they don’t build a character around a cheesy minmax combo and have it pulled from under them (and honestly, most of them involve misunderstanding or very loose reading of what the RAW is, so it’s arguably not pulling anything out from anyone). But, there’s also no way you can know them all in advance, so it’s acceptable to shut them down as they come up.
How would this be "exploiting rules"? Its using one spell, in combination with another, just like using bless on a summoned creature, or any other combo ever.
Exploit is a rather good term one of three definitions is: To make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).
(I agree with almost every point you make, it all makes sense. Just wanted to let you know)
How would this be "exploiting rules"? Its using one spell, in combination with another, just like using bless on a summoned creature, or any other combo ever.
Exploit is a rather good term one of three definitions is: To make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).
In a gaming context, "exploit" means something like "an unintended or unanticipated rules interaction that provides some disproportionate or unfair benefit or advantage." Whether or not this situation fits that description is up to the individual GM, whom the game explicitly empowers to make rulings that override the text to prevent a disproportionate or unfair benefit or advantage.
If your a player, and you are using your abilities fairly, according to RAW. and the DM just comes up to you and says "No, you cannot do that anymore" how would you feel?
I'd feel like the DM made a call and I can abide by it or find a different game.
Again - this kind of crap is why everybody hates familiars. So many people try to use their familiar as what amounts to an entire second PC instead of an animal companion with a few neat tricks. Warlocks with Pact of the Chain get more leeway, but even then - it's a familiar, it's not You 2.0. There are limits to what a small animal can reasonably accomplish.
Well, why wouldn't you buff up your familar with an item? Why just keep it a bunny in a hat. For a character looking at his familar why wouldn't he/she want to become more powerful as an adventurer. Would you rather take the sword or the M4?
(I apologize for the small rant. Its useless. I am done.)
Because as prevoiusly stated, allowing your familiar to attune to stuff, can make it ridiculously strong, and just makes it harder on the dm, which has a tendency to lead to them disliking familiars
Well, why wouldn't you buff up your familar with an item? Why just keep it a bunny in a hat. For a character looking at his familar why wouldn't he/she want to become more powerful as an adventurer. Would you rather take the sword or the M4?
Because if my familiar is a cat, it is limited to the things a cat can do. Cats cannot cast spells. Cats cannot assail enemy dragons. Cats cannot coordinate a tightly planned joint operation.
If you're a warlock with Pact of the Chain and your familiar is a 14-intelligence sprite with three different languages and opposable thumbs? Your familiar is capable of more things than the average cat and this would be a different conversation. But as a DM, I am not going to allow somebody's pet cat to be an entire-ass additional PC with all of the PC's own native capabilities. It's bad for the game, and well beyond the intended capabilities of a basic first-level spell.
If somebody wants to make items specifically for their familiar, tuned to the familiar's capabilities? I'll work with them on that. Could be fun. But giving your pet cat a Ring of Spell Storing and telling it to meow and paw-pad its way through casting a spell so you can autocombo? Naw. That shit's not fun, it doesn't make for a better game of D&D, and I don't need any reason other than "this is not okay" to tell someone their pet cat cannot cast spells for them. Deliver a spell they cast, per the rules in the Find Familiar spell? Sure! That's a cool ability, and one the spell is good for. But the cat is not also its own separate wizard.
Well, why wouldn't you buff up your familar with an item? Why just keep it a bunny in a hat. For a character looking at his familar why wouldn't he/she want to become more powerful as an adventurer. Would you rather take the sword or the M4?
Because if my familiar is a cat, it is limited to the things a cat can do. Cats cannot cast spells. Cats cannot assail enemy dragons. Cats cannot coordinate a tightly planned joint operation.
If you're a warlock with Pact of the Chain and your familiar is a 14-intelligence sprite with three different languages and opposable thumbs? Your familiar is capable of more things than the average cat and this would be a different conversation. But as a DM, I am not going to allow somebody's pet cat to be an entire-ass additional PC with all of the PC's own native capabilities. It's bad for the game, and well beyond the intended capabilities of a basic first-level spell.
If somebody wants to make items specifically for their familiar, tuned to the familiar's capabilities? I'll work with them on that. Could be fun. But giving your pet cat a Ring of Spell Storing and telling it to meow and paw-pad its way through casting a spell so you can autocombo? Naw. That shit's not fun, it doesn't make for a better game of D&D, and I don't need any reason other than "this is not okay" to tell someone their pet cat cannot cast spells for them. Deliver a spell they cast, per the rules in the Find Familiar spell? Sure! That's a cool ability, and one the spell is good for. But the cat is not also its own separate wizard.
I just also realized that if allowing the familiar to use a ring of spellstoring, plus find familiar with a party of 5 could lead to some crazy up to 10 active conc spells if its a party full of casters/half casters, and has plenty of magic items, the reality is probably closer to a max of 2-3 which is still really strong
Well, of course. Execept if its just one lone guy
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
Honestly, I’d personally just rule that familiars can’t attune since, no matter how you slice it, you’re opening the door to a lot of shenanigans if the player functionally has three extra slots to play around with that operate independently.
Heh. You obviously don't have kids. Once you become a parent "because I said so" becomes a much more reasonable explanation for everything.
A simple, that's not the way it works in my world, should suffice. If it doesn't, it's a sign of a much bigger problem with whichever player doesn't accept it.
Just say so, to be honest. Just say "That's a bunch of extra attunement slots and too OP for a 1st level spell. You can use the familiar to do whatever it can RAW, like scouting or using the help for example, but it's not going to be able to use magic items that require attunement like that". It doesn't need to get complicated, just tell them no, it's pushing the rules too far to keep any semblance of balance.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
What’s wrong with just saying “no?”
If your a player, and you are using your abilities fairly, according to RAW. and the DM just comes up to you and says "No, you cannot do that anymore" how would you feel?
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
I might feel like, well, I guess the DM isn’t going to let me just exploit the rules to make an overpowered character. Turns out playing with a live DM is different from a video game. 😀
Every table that’s ever played has used house rules. To be fair, you tell the players that up front, so they don’t build a character around a cheesy minmax combo and have it pulled from under them (and honestly, most of them involve misunderstanding or very loose reading of what the RAW is, so it’s arguably not pulling anything out from anyone). But, there’s also no way you can know them all in advance, so it’s acceptable to shut them down as they come up.
How would this be "exploiting rules"? Its using one spell, in combination with another, just like using bless on a summoned creature, or any other combo ever.
Exploit is a rather good term one of three definitions is: To make full use of and derive benefit from (a resource).
(I agree with almost every point you make, it all makes sense. Just wanted to let you know)
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
In a gaming context, "exploit" means something like "an unintended or unanticipated rules interaction that provides some disproportionate or unfair benefit or advantage." Whether or not this situation fits that description is up to the individual GM, whom the game explicitly empowers to make rulings that override the text to prevent a disproportionate or unfair benefit or advantage.
I'd feel like the DM made a call and I can abide by it or find a different game.
Again - this kind of crap is why everybody hates familiars. So many people try to use their familiar as what amounts to an entire second PC instead of an animal companion with a few neat tricks. Warlocks with Pact of the Chain get more leeway, but even then - it's a familiar, it's not You 2.0. There are limits to what a small animal can reasonably accomplish.
Please do not contact or message me.
Well, why wouldn't you buff up your familar with an item? Why just keep it a bunny in a hat. For a character looking at his familar why wouldn't he/she want to become more powerful as an adventurer. Would you rather take the sword or the M4?
(I apologize for the small rant. Its useless. I am done.)
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
Because as prevoiusly stated, allowing your familiar to attune to stuff, can make it ridiculously strong, and just makes it harder on the dm, which has a tendency to lead to them disliking familiars
Because if my familiar is a cat, it is limited to the things a cat can do. Cats cannot cast spells. Cats cannot assail enemy dragons. Cats cannot coordinate a tightly planned joint operation.
If you're a warlock with Pact of the Chain and your familiar is a 14-intelligence sprite with three different languages and opposable thumbs? Your familiar is capable of more things than the average cat and this would be a different conversation. But as a DM, I am not going to allow somebody's pet cat to be an entire-ass additional PC with all of the PC's own native capabilities. It's bad for the game, and well beyond the intended capabilities of a basic first-level spell.
If somebody wants to make items specifically for their familiar, tuned to the familiar's capabilities? I'll work with them on that. Could be fun. But giving your pet cat a Ring of Spell Storing and telling it to meow and paw-pad its way through casting a spell so you can autocombo? Naw. That shit's not fun, it doesn't make for a better game of D&D, and I don't need any reason other than "this is not okay" to tell someone their pet cat cannot cast spells for them. Deliver a spell they cast, per the rules in the Find Familiar spell? Sure! That's a cool ability, and one the spell is good for. But the cat is not also its own separate wizard.
Please do not contact or message me.
I just also realized that if allowing the familiar to use a ring of spellstoring, plus find familiar with a party of 5 could lead to some crazy up to 10 active conc spells if its a party full of casters/half casters, and has plenty of magic items, the reality is probably closer to a max of 2-3 which is still really strong
They wouldn't even need frontliners because there summons do all the work.
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.