Asking both dms and players. Let me explain where my head is at; I tend to like some classes or combos for their style or flavor, but understand that these classes tend to be under powered. Specifically, Monk and some of it'd subclasses (like shadow for example, which in practice is basically a rogue with no way to capitalize on its stealth with things like sneak attack.) So I sit there and try to think of ways that class could be brought up to par, and part of that is "well if he had x y z items I think maybe he could bridge the gap". But in my head I'm also thinking "but what if the dm never gives me access to these items? That would kind of suck"
Note: this thread isn't necessarily about weather or not you agree with my opinion on any given class combo. This is my own head circus.
So anyhow.. does anyone else ever face this struggle? Create a flavorful class and prey your dm will give you the tools you need to bring it up to par? And how has that played out for you?
Likewise to the dms out there... I know you don't always want to just GIVE your players exactly what they want right away... how do YOU handle this kind of stuff. Do you notice some of your players falling behind the rest of the group and decide its time for a bump. Do you ask players how they would like their character to feel in battle ahead of time and slowly introduce tools to help them achieve that?
For example. A shadow monk could go many ways, your dm could load you up with ac items or healing options and make you a demi tank. Or he could load you up with bonuses to attack and damage and really emphasize your "assasin" feel. But say you want your shadow monk to fill the roll of battlefield controller and sewer of confusion; putting darkness down on the map and locking people into it with stuns and sentinel strikes etc. Is that something you ask your players what they're looking for, or do you just watch the way they play and try to help them fill those niches if necessary.
I was also wondering how you handle "shopping" in general. My in game experience is limited, and 2 out of the 3 games I've played never even introduced shopping as an option... do you just hand players a list of general store items and say this is what you see for sale and these are the prices, or do you ask the players specifically what they're looking for and role-play it out matt mercer style as the shopkeep?
My biggest fear, because it's happened, is that dms will ignore loot, shopping, and money entirely.
As a DM I generally have no problem changing out some of the loot in a module or homebrew to fit the needs/desires of the characters. I also have places where items can be preordered for creation and will be delivered when completed (cost of creation as a down payment the rest of the price on delivery). If nothing else it’s a good way to strip some cash off the characters. Some loot is placed to aide the story (as DM I know they are going to face dragons but not giants so a Dragonslayer weapon is placed even if the random roll calls for a giant slayer), some is based on random rolls and some based on PC needs/desires. Part of playing “suboptimal” PCs is figuring out how to get the most out of them given their strengths and weaknesses. This can mean thinking outside the box of standard tropes and rethinking the build.
My biggest fear, because it's happened, is that dms will ignore loot, shopping, and money entirely.
Loot is a core of D&D. Now, like you pontificated, there's a lot of styles out there. That said, some classes just naturally scale better without it but the fact is when you look at base class balance? The idea was to balance the classes around zero magical items.
Zero.
So when thinking on it of those lines, the only classes that really suffer are Fighters, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians. Monks get magical strikes eventually, Artificers can make their own magical items, spellcasters gonna spellcast. Even then, Rangers and Paladins have some magic and can use magic weapon to bypass. The only ones who can't are Rogues and Fighters/Barbs, but again Rogues get some insane scaling.
Getting back to the loot question though, it should be a session 0 question. I recently joined a game where I'm playing a Gunslinger fighter, we start at level 7. The only magic item I had was my gun, and for the entire first session I gave it away. Other people were asking for more items but I rolled stats like a Golden God so I didn't feel I needed all these other things and even then I gave it away for story reasons for the first day. My entire kit was gone. Still had a blast without being able to blast.
I also think it depends on is it a short romp or are we playing a major thing in terms of games. If you're starting at 1 and going through the motions? There needs to be loot or shops because again, loot is a core of D&D. If you're starting at 7 and it isn't going long? Then you might get a couple of items up front and that's it, unless its a Monty Haul where the DM just gives everything and everyone just goes apeshit.
Likewise to the dms out there... I know you don't always want to just GIVE your players exactly what they want right away... how do YOU handle this kind of stuff. Do you notice some of your players falling behind the rest of the group and decide its time for a bump. Do you ask players how they would like their character to feel in battle ahead of time and slowly introduce tools to help them achieve that?
Short answer, yes. I notice and I try to counterbalance with special attuned items, personal boons, or mundane loot that helps particular characters. I also have open and ongoing dialogues with my players about their plans.
As for giving players what they want, I actually very rarely do that because they are usually requests for hyper-specific (and usually OP) magic items. Some DMs don't mind a player saying, "I want a belt of dwarvenkind" but that, to me, feels metagamey and power-grubby. It's not my playstyle, and I don't appreciate being pressured or steered into what magic items I should introduce. That said, when my players hunted through magic item lists on their own and came to me with requests, I would ask them what they liked about the items and how that fit their build/concept. If it made sense in my campaign, I'd find a way to give them an item that got them where they wanted, mechanically, but also had significance in my narrative.
I was also wondering how you handle "shopping" in general. My in game experience is limited, and 2 out of the 3 games I've played never even introduced shopping as an option... do you just hand players a list of general store items and say this is what you see for sale and these are the prices, or do you ask the players specifically what they're looking for and role-play it out matt mercer style as the shopkeep?
I usually handle shopping in summary during downtime, rather than via RP. I ask players what they want, and depending on where they are and how hard the items are to locate, I might ask for skill checks to find/buy stuff. On occasion, though, I have a fun NPC to feature or plot-related information to convey, so I'll RP it. And sometimes, a player (like Laura Bailey) really likes to haggle, so I'll humor them.
Shopping is pretty infrequent in my games, however. First, because adventurers don't go through their ammo/food/gear all that quickly, so they don't need to restock often. Second, because they pick up new stuff in dungeons and on missions. Third, because shopping is...kinda boring unless you're the person buying. It's time-consuming and boils down to an accounting transaction. Some tables may really enjoy it. Mine has a limited appetite for it. We'd rather be exploring ruins, fighting monsters, or following up on political rumors.
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Asking both dms and players. Let me explain where my head is at; I tend to like some classes or combos for their style or flavor, but understand that these classes tend to be under powered. Specifically, Monk and some of it'd subclasses (like shadow for example, which in practice is basically a rogue with no way to capitalize on its stealth with things like sneak attack.) So I sit there and try to think of ways that class could be brought up to par, and part of that is "well if he had x y z items I think maybe he could bridge the gap". But in my head I'm also thinking "but what if the dm never gives me access to these items? That would kind of suck"
Note: this thread isn't necessarily about weather or not you agree with my opinion on any given class combo. This is my own head circus.
So anyhow.. does anyone else ever face this struggle? Create a flavorful class and prey your dm will give you the tools you need to bring it up to par? And how has that played out for you?
Likewise to the dms out there... I know you don't always want to just GIVE your players exactly what they want right away... how do YOU handle this kind of stuff. Do you notice some of your players falling behind the rest of the group and decide its time for a bump. Do you ask players how they would like their character to feel in battle ahead of time and slowly introduce tools to help them achieve that?
For example. A shadow monk could go many ways, your dm could load you up with ac items or healing options and make you a demi tank. Or he could load you up with bonuses to attack and damage and really emphasize your "assasin" feel. But say you want your shadow monk to fill the roll of battlefield controller and sewer of confusion; putting darkness down on the map and locking people into it with stuns and sentinel strikes etc. Is that something you ask your players what they're looking for, or do you just watch the way they play and try to help them fill those niches if necessary.
I was also wondering how you handle "shopping" in general. My in game experience is limited, and 2 out of the 3 games I've played never even introduced shopping as an option... do you just hand players a list of general store items and say this is what you see for sale and these are the prices, or do you ask the players specifically what they're looking for and role-play it out matt mercer style as the shopkeep?
My biggest fear, because it's happened, is that dms will ignore loot, shopping, and money entirely.
As a DM I generally have no problem changing out some of the loot in a module or homebrew to fit the needs/desires of the characters. I also have places where items can be preordered for creation and will be delivered when completed (cost of creation as a down payment the rest of the price on delivery). If nothing else it’s a good way to strip some cash off the characters. Some loot is placed to aide the story (as DM I know they are going to face dragons but not giants so a Dragonslayer weapon is placed even if the random roll calls for a giant slayer), some is based on random rolls and some based on PC needs/desires.
Part of playing “suboptimal” PCs is figuring out how to get the most out of them given their strengths and weaknesses. This can mean thinking outside the box of standard tropes and rethinking the build.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Loot is a core of D&D. Now, like you pontificated, there's a lot of styles out there. That said, some classes just naturally scale better without it but the fact is when you look at base class balance? The idea was to balance the classes around zero magical items.
Zero.
So when thinking on it of those lines, the only classes that really suffer are Fighters, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians. Monks get magical strikes eventually, Artificers can make their own magical items, spellcasters gonna spellcast. Even then, Rangers and Paladins have some magic and can use magic weapon to bypass. The only ones who can't are Rogues and Fighters/Barbs, but again Rogues get some insane scaling.
Getting back to the loot question though, it should be a session 0 question. I recently joined a game where I'm playing a Gunslinger fighter, we start at level 7. The only magic item I had was my gun, and for the entire first session I gave it away. Other people were asking for more items but I rolled stats like a Golden God so I didn't feel I needed all these other things and even then I gave it away for story reasons for the first day. My entire kit was gone. Still had a blast without being able to blast.
I also think it depends on is it a short romp or are we playing a major thing in terms of games. If you're starting at 1 and going through the motions? There needs to be loot or shops because again, loot is a core of D&D. If you're starting at 7 and it isn't going long? Then you might get a couple of items up front and that's it, unless its a Monty Haul where the DM just gives everything and everyone just goes apeshit.
Short answer, yes. I notice and I try to counterbalance with special attuned items, personal boons, or mundane loot that helps particular characters. I also have open and ongoing dialogues with my players about their plans.
As for giving players what they want, I actually very rarely do that because they are usually requests for hyper-specific (and usually OP) magic items. Some DMs don't mind a player saying, "I want a belt of dwarvenkind" but that, to me, feels metagamey and power-grubby. It's not my playstyle, and I don't appreciate being pressured or steered into what magic items I should introduce. That said, when my players hunted through magic item lists on their own and came to me with requests, I would ask them what they liked about the items and how that fit their build/concept. If it made sense in my campaign, I'd find a way to give them an item that got them where they wanted, mechanically, but also had significance in my narrative.
I usually handle shopping in summary during downtime, rather than via RP. I ask players what they want, and depending on where they are and how hard the items are to locate, I might ask for skill checks to find/buy stuff. On occasion, though, I have a fun NPC to feature or plot-related information to convey, so I'll RP it. And sometimes, a player (like Laura Bailey) really likes to haggle, so I'll humor them.
Shopping is pretty infrequent in my games, however. First, because adventurers don't go through their ammo/food/gear all that quickly, so they don't need to restock often. Second, because they pick up new stuff in dungeons and on missions. Third, because shopping is...kinda boring unless you're the person buying. It's time-consuming and boils down to an accounting transaction. Some tables may really enjoy it. Mine has a limited appetite for it. We'd rather be exploring ruins, fighting monsters, or following up on political rumors.