I can only chalk up this attitude to Player Privilege. They know their doing the "right" thing, but they can't seem to empathize with the natural irrationality of scared, hurt people. How do I help them remember that not every NPC can take more than 4 damage, how do I remind them that to the NPCs, this isn't a game, its their one and only life on the line? How do I make them remember that their characters are a step above the common man, and that the common man can't just pick up a sword and smite for 30+ damage??
Looking over what you've been saying.. i don't think the players are the problem. They're there to play a <game>, and you're not. You seem to be there for them to play your story and they're not doing it the way you want them to.
With further thought... if you want them to get warm fuzzy feelings for being the big heroes, instead of being belligerent or just being in opposition to the townsfolk, you should start making sure they're treated like heroes. You say they are being rewarded by having " a safe haven to rest in, a place to purchase supplies and repair gear, an area to de-stress during downtime, etc"; That's just a town. Every campaign has that. Every. Single. One. In fact, most campaigns have several of those.
The players have done a lot for the town. Have they gotten positions of note in the town? Titles? Items that the town has held as sacred, but the players deserve them more? Are the townsfolk trying to start up a militia to assist the heroes through various ways? Do the shop keeps acquire a rare item from a contact in a province over and give it to the heroes so they can continue to protect the town? Heck, do the players even get paid at all by the town or are they just being expected to do it because they're "heroes"?
You want the players to live (and possibly die) for this town, and with the context that you've given us, it doesn't seem like the town reciprocates. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can only go off of the context you've given us.
As for the alignment thing. Alignment isn't a "how nice you are" scale. Good doesn't mean you are nice and respectful. Punishing your players with possible gameplay issues because they aren't nice enough is, frankly, just being childish.
Show the consequences: people maimed, children orphaned. If they still don't change, then yeah I think they qualify for neutral alignment at best. I think alignment is mostly a personal thing, but yeah if there are any in-game effects that respond to a target's alignment, they might not get the benefits of good alignment.
If they are the descendants of Great Heroes of Old, and they are failing to live up to the responsibilities that come with being a hero, then maybe those Great Heroes of their past could come back to haunt them. Maybe some magic items that they inherited from those ancestors suddenly start losing their magic. Maybe every time they yell at a local NPC they suddenly see their grandmother's face on them. Maybe they start having nightmares where their ancestors are berating them for being unworthy and for besmirching their memory. Maybe they are unable to complete a Long Rest when such a nightmare happens.
Ghosts are a time-honored literary tradition. It worked for Shakespeare, it worked for Dickens, it can work for you!
If they are the descendants of Great Heroes of Old, and they are failing to live up to the responsibilities that come with being a hero, then maybe those Great Heroes of their past could come back to haunt them. Maybe some magic items that they inherited from those ancestors suddenly start losing their magic. Maybe every time they yell at a local NPC they suddenly see their grandmother's face on them. Maybe they start having nightmares where their ancestors are berating them for being unworthy and for besmirching their memory. Maybe they are unable to complete a Long Rest when such a nightmare happens.
Ghosts are a time-honored literary tradition. It worked for Shakespeare, it worked for Dickens, it can work for you!
As a player this would have an adverse effect on me, make me double down on my WIIFM (What's In It for Me) stance.
If the players are behaving "badly" according to your story, change the story so every one are having fun. Alternatively, change the players, or the DM. Don't force people into your narrrative
Maybe every time they yell at a local NPC they suddenly see their grandmother's face on them. Maybe they start having nightmares where their ancestors are berating them for being unworthy and for besmirching their memory. Maybe they are unable to complete a Long Rest when such a nightmare happens.
Ghosts are a time-honored literary tradition. It worked for Shakespeare, it worked for Dickens, it can work for you!
This sounds like a really awful DM attempt to railroad the players into doing exactly what the DM intends the story to be, with zero possibility for the players to have any impact on the results. Also sounds like a great way to break up the group and stop adventuring together. I definitely wouldn't follow a DM like this
If they are the descendants of Great Heroes of Old, and they are failing to live up to the responsibilities that come with being a hero, then maybe those Great Heroes of their past could come back to haunt them. Maybe some magic items that they inherited from those ancestors suddenly start losing their magic. Maybe every time they yell at a local NPC they suddenly see their grandmother's face on them. Maybe they start having nightmares where their ancestors are berating them for being unworthy and for besmirching their memory. Maybe they are unable to complete a Long Rest when such a nightmare happens.
Ghosts are a time-honored literary tradition. It worked for Shakespeare, it worked for Dickens, it can work for you!
Punish the players because they want to play a different style of game. Yeah that’s going to help. Frankly I would simply walk. The only real way to fix the issue is to sit down out of game with the players and talk to each other about what everybody wants to get from the game.
Personally, I'd do a minisession zero. Find out if they're doing it because they want to play that way...or if something in your DMing is provoking them. If it's the former, roll with it. If it's the latter, then change.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I agree with Caerwyn. Get them out of the town. Maybe something that they need to save the town or help rebuild it quickly is rumored to be in a nearby cave (from a scrap of note found on a monster raiding the town) and that leads to a complex of caverns or dungeon. Which leads to something else related to why the town is being plagued by these issues, etc.
The DM sets the world and the players set the story. If you don't want to allow the players to use outside resources to trivialize encounters you can tell them that. If they want to have the NPC's fight something sure they can come along for verisimilitude because most would try to get extra help. If you don't like the language just do an OOC and say guys that's getting a bit creepy can we cut it out. If it doesn't improve, tie up the campaign and stop playing.
No one has to play a game that they don't like playing player or DM.
I have a simple rule in my games: The PC's are the heroes. NPC's don't do anything, really. Oh, they may be shop keepers or farmers or sailors or masons - but they aren't heroes and warriors, they don't go out and fight. That's the PC's job.
Rubbing the danger off on random civilians is a very un-hero thing to do. And I won't tolerate it. You don't get to be an adventurer by avoiding risk.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Or let the party coerce the civilians into fighting and watch as the civilians get slaughtered. Then the rest of the town turn on them and throw them out of town or message the local lord who sends soldiers (once the lord hears how many of the town were killed at the behest if the party) to escort them out of the area, to the boos and sneers of the townsfolk who thought the party was supposed to be heroes and not the villains.
Or let the party coerce the civilians into fighting and watch as the civilians get slaughtered. Then the rest of the town turn on them and throw them out of town or message the local lord who sends soldiers (once the lord hears how many of the town were killed at the behest if the party) to escort them out of the area, to the boos and sneers of the townsfolk who thought the party was supposed to be heroes and not the villains.
Actions have consequences
you can lead a horse to water but you can't shame it into drinking.
if players are expressing feelings of being underpaid, then why not just pay them more? if not lauds, land, titles, or gold... then, well, maybe try options. have an out of game conversation and find out what it is players do want. give positive reinforcement a chance. acting out and "turning evil" are probably just symptoms, don't you suppose? inaction has consequences.
You can handle this one where a few hot heads offer to help but then have their mothers, fathers and wives all yell back no, if they die who will take care of the farm etc. If the players persist, now you can have some fun with them. Depending on how the players deploy them, and yes I'd let the players deploy them if they A) cannon fodder all of them deliberately or B) assign no leader and just let them die, give them consequences when they return to town. If they C) Protect the npcs, buy them missile weapons and have them stay in the back and not to risk themselves then they get bonus rewards. Maybe give them some followers to help carry the loot.
Have the town guards at the gates ask "Where is my boy Emory, you said you'd protect him", when they are let in have more and more people come up and give them notice that the mood in the town has gotten quite and dark, children don't look at you, door are shut as you approach. Give them a chance to flee the town, let them know they screwed up. The barkeep refuses to serve them. Towards midday the town has men in chain and leather armor and weapons come up to you. Have the local sheriff read off "You have been charged with the wanton slaughter of 76 (read their names out, make the players wait) for disregard of their safety. You have been remanded to the jail to away trial.
Jail their butts for about 10-15 years, lose their gear, and then have an assault by monsters on town they break out, they resume their adventures then. Preferably with a new campaign direction in a new area because their reputation is garbage now.
I tend to the idea that evil characters do not get willing help from any NPC's be they good or bad.
They get nothing at a discount and often find closed doors. Thus they get pushed to more and more evil acts. They get pretty infamous pretty quick. Quick enough that its hard to outrun their own reputations.
Or let the party coerce the civilians into fighting and watch as the civilians get slaughtered. Then the rest of the town turn on them and throw them out of town or message the local lord who sends soldiers (once the lord hears how many of the town were killed at the behest if the party) to escort them out of the area, to the boos and sneers of the townsfolk who thought the party was supposed to be heroes and not the villains.
Actions have consequences
you can lead a horse to water but you can't shame it into drinking.
if players are expressing feelings of being underpaid, then why not just pay them more? if not lauds, land, titles, or gold... then, well, maybe try options. have an out of game conversation and find out what it is players do want. give positive reinforcement a chance. acting out and "turning evil" are probably just symptoms, don't you suppose? inaction has consequences.
It really does boggle my mind how replies (not yours) seem to be turning into punishing the players somehow; As if that's going to get the group to enjoy themselves; Especially when the players just seem to be (at most) rude and demanding to the NPCs in the face of (seemingly) getting nothing more than room and board from the town that they're the thrice time saviors of.
At some point, the players themselves will just walk because the DM will piss them off through trying to punish them, or just by not making the players feel rewarded about the things they're doing.
The town might be to small and impoverished to afford more of anything. If the players can not see that and move on to a new town or work out a new agreement then its their fault.
Or let the party coerce the civilians into fighting and watch as the civilians get slaughtered. Then the rest of the town turn on them and throw them out of town or message the local lord who sends soldiers (once the lord hears how many of the town were killed at the behest if the party) to escort them out of the area, to the boos and sneers of the townsfolk who thought the party was supposed to be heroes and not the villains.
Actions have consequences
you can lead a horse to water but you can't shame it into drinking.
if players are expressing feelings of being underpaid, then why not just pay them more? if not lauds, land, titles, or gold... then, well, maybe try options. have an out of game conversation and find out what it is players do want. give positive reinforcement a chance. acting out and "turning evil" are probably just symptoms, don't you suppose? inaction has consequences.
It really does boggle my mind how replies (not yours) seem to be turning into punishing the players somehow; As if that's going to get the group to enjoy themselves; Especially when the players just seem to be (at most) rude and demanding to the NPCs in the face of (seemingly) getting nothing more than room and board from the town that they're the thrice time saviors of.
At some point, the players themselves will just walk because the DM will piss them off through trying to punish them, or just by not making the players feel rewarded about the things they're doing.
Well, my initial post (#28) was to get them out of the town and expand the adventure to more than just sticking in town rebuilding. Seems like it wasn’t what the players were interested in. And then I offered an alternative if it was just the players being jerks.
Some players have no interest in playing a role, they just want to play a game. OPs players sound like they're looking for a game while OP is looking to run a simulation where everyone plays a role. Those kinds of conflicting desires need to be worked out or the tension will eventually blow the group apart.
In one campaign, a solo one, the player pursuaded the town to send her some help to clear out a gnoll lair. They sent 4 commoners with basic weapons, because it's what they had. One of them was immediately skewered by a gnoll spear, and the rest fled. When she came out to shout at them, she saw the son of the dead commoner in stunned silence. The son had always been kind to her, but now blames her for his dads death.
That's the consequences I gave for how things went down, because these people aren't heroes.
Or let the party coerce the civilians into fighting and watch as the civilians get slaughtered. Then the rest of the town turn on them and throw them out of town or message the local lord who sends soldiers (once the lord hears how many of the town were killed at the behest if the party) to escort them out of the area, to the boos and sneers of the townsfolk who thought the party was supposed to be heroes and not the villains.
Actions have consequences
you can lead a horse to water but you can't shame it into drinking.
if players are expressing feelings of being underpaid, then why not just pay them more? if not lauds, land, titles, or gold... then, well, maybe try options. have an out of game conversation and find out what it is players do want. give positive reinforcement a chance. acting out and "turning evil" are probably just symptoms, don't you suppose? inaction has consequences.
It really does boggle my mind how replies (not yours) seem to be turning into punishing the players somehow; As if that's going to get the group to enjoy themselves; Especially when the players just seem to be (at most) rude and demanding to the NPCs in the face of (seemingly) getting nothing more than room and board from the town that they're the thrice time saviors of.
At some point, the players themselves will just walk because the DM will piss them off through trying to punish them, or just by not making the players feel rewarded about the things they're doing.
Well, my initial post (#28) was to get them out of the town and expand the adventure to more than just sticking in town rebuilding. Seems like it wasn’t what the players were interested in. And then I offered an alternative if it was just the players being jerks.
What do you mean it didn't* seems like what the players weren't interested in? The OP hasn't posted in this thread since #4; There actually hasn't been any feedback at all from him since the first day...
Looking over what you've been saying.. i don't think the players are the problem. They're there to play a <game>, and you're not. You seem to be there for them to play your story and they're not doing it the way you want them to.
With further thought... if you want them to get warm fuzzy feelings for being the big heroes, instead of being belligerent or just being in opposition to the townsfolk, you should start making sure they're treated like heroes. You say they are being rewarded by having " a safe haven to rest in, a place to purchase supplies and repair gear, an area to de-stress during downtime, etc"; That's just a town. Every campaign has that. Every. Single. One. In fact, most campaigns have several of those.
The players have done a lot for the town. Have they gotten positions of note in the town? Titles? Items that the town has held as sacred, but the players deserve them more? Are the townsfolk trying to start up a militia to assist the heroes through various ways? Do the shop keeps acquire a rare item from a contact in a province over and give it to the heroes so they can continue to protect the town? Heck, do the players even get paid at all by the town or are they just being expected to do it because they're "heroes"?
You want the players to live (and possibly die) for this town, and with the context that you've given us, it doesn't seem like the town reciprocates. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can only go off of the context you've given us.
As for the alignment thing. Alignment isn't a "how nice you are" scale. Good doesn't mean you are nice and respectful. Punishing your players with possible gameplay issues because they aren't nice enough is, frankly, just being childish.
Show the consequences: people maimed, children orphaned. If they still don't change, then yeah I think they qualify for neutral alignment at best. I think alignment is mostly a personal thing, but yeah if there are any in-game effects that respond to a target's alignment, they might not get the benefits of good alignment.
If they are the descendants of Great Heroes of Old, and they are failing to live up to the responsibilities that come with being a hero, then maybe those Great Heroes of their past could come back to haunt them. Maybe some magic items that they inherited from those ancestors suddenly start losing their magic. Maybe every time they yell at a local NPC they suddenly see their grandmother's face on them. Maybe they start having nightmares where their ancestors are berating them for being unworthy and for besmirching their memory. Maybe they are unable to complete a Long Rest when such a nightmare happens.
Ghosts are a time-honored literary tradition. It worked for Shakespeare, it worked for Dickens, it can work for you!
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
As a player this would have an adverse effect on me, make me double down on my WIIFM (What's In It for Me) stance.
If the players are behaving "badly" according to your story, change the story so every one are having fun. Alternatively, change the players, or the DM. Don't force people into your narrrative
This sounds like a really awful DM attempt to railroad the players into doing exactly what the DM intends the story to be, with zero possibility for the players to have any impact on the results. Also sounds like a great way to break up the group and stop adventuring together. I definitely wouldn't follow a DM like this
Punish the players because they want to play a different style of game. Yeah that’s going to help. Frankly I would simply walk. The only real way to fix the issue is to sit down out of game with the players and talk to each other about what everybody wants to get from the game.
Personally, I'd do a minisession zero. Find out if they're doing it because they want to play that way...or if something in your DMing is provoking them. If it's the former, roll with it. If it's the latter, then change.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I agree with Caerwyn. Get them out of the town. Maybe something that they need to save the town or help rebuild it quickly is rumored to be in a nearby cave (from a scrap of note found on a monster raiding the town) and that leads to a complex of caverns or dungeon. Which leads to something else related to why the town is being plagued by these issues, etc.
Let them adventure outside of town for a while
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The DM sets the world and the players set the story. If you don't want to allow the players to use outside resources to trivialize encounters you can tell them that. If they want to have the NPC's fight something sure they can come along for verisimilitude because most would try to get extra help. If you don't like the language just do an OOC and say guys that's getting a bit creepy can we cut it out. If it doesn't improve, tie up the campaign and stop playing.
No one has to play a game that they don't like playing player or DM.
I have a simple rule in my games: The PC's are the heroes. NPC's don't do anything, really. Oh, they may be shop keepers or farmers or sailors or masons - but they aren't heroes and warriors, they don't go out and fight. That's the PC's job.
Rubbing the danger off on random civilians is a very un-hero thing to do. And I won't tolerate it. You don't get to be an adventurer by avoiding risk.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Or let the party coerce the civilians into fighting and watch as the civilians get slaughtered. Then the rest of the town turn on them and throw them out of town or message the local lord who sends soldiers (once the lord hears how many of the town were killed at the behest if the party) to escort them out of the area, to the boos and sneers of the townsfolk who thought the party was supposed to be heroes and not the villains.
Actions have consequences
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
you can lead a horse to water but you can't shame it into drinking.
if players are expressing feelings of being underpaid, then why not just pay them more? if not lauds, land, titles, or gold... then, well, maybe try options. have an out of game conversation and find out what it is players do want. give positive reinforcement a chance. acting out and "turning evil" are probably just symptoms, don't you suppose? inaction has consequences.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
You can handle this one where a few hot heads offer to help but then have their mothers, fathers and wives all yell back no, if they die who will take care of the farm etc. If the players persist, now you can have some fun with them. Depending on how the players deploy them, and yes I'd let the players deploy them if they A) cannon fodder all of them deliberately or B) assign no leader and just let them die, give them consequences when they return to town. If they C) Protect the npcs, buy them missile weapons and have them stay in the back and not to risk themselves then they get bonus rewards. Maybe give them some followers to help carry the loot.
Have the town guards at the gates ask "Where is my boy Emory, you said you'd protect him", when they are let in have more and more people come up and give them notice that the mood in the town has gotten quite and dark, children don't look at you, door are shut as you approach. Give them a chance to flee the town, let them know they screwed up. The barkeep refuses to serve them. Towards midday the town has men in chain and leather armor and weapons come up to you. Have the local sheriff read off "You have been charged with the wanton slaughter of 76 (read their names out, make the players wait) for disregard of their safety. You have been remanded to the jail to away trial.
Jail their butts for about 10-15 years, lose their gear, and then have an assault by monsters on town they break out, they resume their adventures then. Preferably with a new campaign direction in a new area because their reputation is garbage now.
I tend to the idea that evil characters do not get willing help from any NPC's be they good or bad.
They get nothing at a discount and often find closed doors. Thus they get pushed to more and more evil acts. They get pretty infamous pretty quick. Quick enough that its hard to outrun their own reputations.
It really does boggle my mind how replies (not yours) seem to be turning into punishing the players somehow; As if that's going to get the group to enjoy themselves; Especially when the players just seem to be (at most) rude and demanding to the NPCs in the face of (seemingly) getting nothing more than room and board from the town that they're the thrice time saviors of.
At some point, the players themselves will just walk because the DM will piss them off through trying to punish them, or just by not making the players feel rewarded about the things they're doing.
The town might be to small and impoverished to afford more of anything.
If the players can not see that and move on to a new town or work out a new agreement then its their fault.
Well, my initial post (#28) was to get them out of the town and expand the adventure to more than just sticking in town rebuilding. Seems like it wasn’t what the players were interested in. And then I offered an alternative if it was just the players being jerks.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Some players have no interest in playing a role, they just want to play a game. OPs players sound like they're looking for a game while OP is looking to run a simulation where everyone plays a role. Those kinds of conflicting desires need to be worked out or the tension will eventually blow the group apart.
In one campaign, a solo one, the player pursuaded the town to send her some help to clear out a gnoll lair. They sent 4 commoners with basic weapons, because it's what they had. One of them was immediately skewered by a gnoll spear, and the rest fled. When she came out to shout at them, she saw the son of the dead commoner in stunned silence. The son had always been kind to her, but now blames her for his dads death.
That's the consequences I gave for how things went down, because these people aren't heroes.
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What do you mean it didn't* seems like what the players weren't interested in? The OP hasn't posted in this thread since #4; There actually hasn't been any feedback at all from him since the first day...
*forgot a key word.