If there is a D&D mechanical trope I'd be willing to give up, it's Classes. I'd like to see a D&D with an a la carte gestalt system where you build block by block, power by power, feat by feat, any kind of PC you can imagine.
So basically you want to play a completely different game?
There’s only so many things D&D can dump before it’s no longer D&D. Not to mention losing it’s core audience. You’ll note the number of respondents here against the number of players worldwide. Also, I prefer Monks without armor if they want to use their wisdom bonus for armor class, and obviously Barbarians are going to be restrained in their movement while using armor. I’m pretty sure Barbarians getting to add their Constitution modifier to AC is new to 5e (maybe 4e but that was a short lived edition).
If there is a D&D mechanical trope I'd be willing to give up, it's Classes. I'd like to see a D&D with an a la carte gestalt system where you build block by block, power by power, feat by feat, any kind of PC you can imagine.
If there is a D&D mechanical trope I'd be willing to give up, it's Classes. I'd like to see a D&D with an a la carte gestalt system where you build block by block, power by power, feat by feat, any kind of PC you can imagine.
There are so many other games out there that already do that and do it better than D&D ever could. If that's something you actually want.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You misunderstand, I was implying that adopting such a system could negatively affect D&D’s popularity. Personally have always loved Shadowrun (despite seeming to die every other session) but that doesn’t mean it would translate well to D&D.
Which is why I recommended playing a different game.
You say that like it's easy to do. I live in a very populated area and it's difficult to find campaigns for things that aren't D&D 5E or Pathfinder. You basically have to be "in the know" with the right groups to find GMs who run things like Shadowrun, Mutants & Masterminds, Mage:tA, etc. AND players open to learning those more complex rule sets. It was difficult before Covid, and it's gotten harder since.
Those warrior monks were more Samurai than Monk or think of them more as a multi class Monk-Fighter. They had the title of monk, but fought with all sorts of Samurai weapons.
They were Buddhist Monks that practiced martial arts and wore armor in battle. They used the same weapons and armor that were common for the era, just like Shinobi ("ninjas") did. I really wish people would stop ignoring cultural and historical realities just to play out their narrow fantasies of East Asian culture. I know the Shaolin Monk is a favorite Western stereotype for martial arts and D&D Monks, but that is only one example of East Asian martial arts culture and history. I think that is why I kind of wish Monk as a class would just go away completely.
Very much agree with you, Tilda. There's no real space for Monk in D&D because of how "high fantasy" the default settings of Forgotten Realms are. And "high fantasy" mostly means a vaguely European, Tolkien/Lewis-derived idea of magic, armor, and weaponry. The reason why 5E Monks underperform so much is that the devs looked at the concept as one being very much separate from that of the base classes of original D&D: Fighter, Thief, Wizard, Cleric. Monk as a game class identity is vague. So we got some hodge podge of mechanics for somebody who is Fighter-ish, but not very hard hitting. Rogue-ish, but can't Disengage or Dash without spending a limited resource. Some can kinda cast spells, but their spell resource is totally different from all other spellcasters, which makes multi-classing a pain. In summary, It's half-baked because the devs watched some kung fu movies, slapped on some mechanics, and called it a day.
If there is a D&D mechanical trope I'd be willing to give up, it's Classes. I'd like to see a D&D with an a la carte gestalt system where you build block by block, power by power, feat by feat, any kind of PC you can imagine.
So basically you want to play a completely different game?
At the very least, it does not hurt to give us the option to take classes/subclasses apart and treat each feature like feats where you can mix and match. Just as not every table uses side initiative, gritty realism rest, spell points, or even feats, not every table needs to use DIY classes/subclasses, but it is still nice to have it as an available option for those of us who want it.
With mixing and matching features, you can replace Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement with other features that is similar but does not have armor restrictions. That way, everyone gets to play their own fantasy of what a Monk is, or at least closer to that fantasy.
To be fair, the Monk is most easily identifiable as a Ninja / Samurai type class (or just general Wire Fu) and works perfectly for that. It is also fair to say that it doesn’t easily transfer over to a European / Carribean setting, which is definitely the default for most people. And yes, despite having some fun utility and movement, the Monk definitely underperforms in combat. Every time I see a class ranking, the Monk and Artificer are fighting over the bottom spot.
Edit: this was a reply to Song_of_Blues and Tilda_Wildbramble if it seems confusing.
To be fair, the Monk is most easily identifiable as a Ninja / Samurai type class (or just general Wire Fu) and works perfectly for that. It is also fair to say that it doesn’t easily transfer over to a European / Carribean setting, which is definitely the default for most people. And yes, despite having some fun utility and movement, the Monk definitely underperforms in combat. Every time I see a class ranking, the Monk and Artificer are fighting over the bottom spot.
Edit: this was a reply to Song_of_Blues and Tilda_Wildbramble if it seems confusing.
I believe that there are 3 things that keep Monk at the bottom of the Class Rankings.
It is MAD, yes other classes are also MAD but they generally don't suffer for it quite as badly as Monk does.
It is overly reliant on a limited resource to do pretty much anything.
It lacks diversity of theme. (Some will disagree, but this is my list of issues, feel free to make your own.)
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Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
Which is why I recommended playing a different game.
You say that like it's easy to do. I live in a very populated area and it's difficult to find campaigns for things that aren't D&D 5E or Pathfinder. You basically have to be "in the know" with the right groups to find GMs who run things like Shadowrun, Mutants & Masterminds, Mage:tA, etc. AND players open to learning those more complex rule sets. It was difficult before Covid, and it's gotten harder since.
And you think it would be any easier to turn D&D into a point-build rule system without character classes?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Which is why I recommended playing a different game.
You say that like it's easy to do. I live in a very populated area and it's difficult to find campaigns for things that aren't D&D 5E or Pathfinder. You basically have to be "in the know" with the right groups to find GMs who run things like Shadowrun, Mutants & Masterminds, Mage:tA, etc. AND players open to learning those more complex rule sets. It was difficult before Covid, and it's gotten harder since.
And you think it would be any easier to turn D&D into a point-build rule system without character classes?
History part 2: about the time the monk appeared TSR also introduced 3 new settings, 2 of which had whole new classes, Forgotten Realms, Oriental Adventures and an Arabian/Middle Eastern themed one. The monk was a sort of import from oriental adventures where there were classes similar to the sohei monks. Welcome to legacy pieces that are too popular to drop but not popular enough to spend a lot of time on. The truth is an unarmored fighter on a massed battle field full of armored foes (or even vs a smallish group, 5-20) stands almost no chance. As for opening up features for general selection - welcome to unbalancing the game horribly. It would be a power gamer’s delight - until they discovered the DM is an even better power gamer with the NPCs. Think of the classes and subclasses as being similar to the rules for sonnets and Haiku poetry - it’s fairly easy to write a decent poem in free verse, but while it’s much harder to do so in a rules bound system the result is generally of higher quality because of the increased effort and creativity. You might want to go read the short book “ The Dot and the Line.
@OctoberGeek (sorry quoting feature not working for me)
I'm sorry but that would not be D&D, and would lead to people only cherry picking the best abilities and combinations of features without any of the drawbacks that come along with it. The reason monks don't get armor in D&D is because their other abilities are stronger to compensate for them NOT having armor. If someone could wear plate armor and still have all the abilities of a monk plus the healing of the cleric and the smites of the paladin, this would be an entirely different sort of game.
Maybe related to how the classes work. For Barbarian I can see those restrictions existing so you don't get too Overpowered, and monks need the free movement and agility.
@OctoberGeek (sorry quoting feature not working for me)
I'm sorry but that would not be D&D, and would lead to people only cherry picking the best abilities and combinations of features without any of the drawbacks that come along with it. The reason monks don't get armor in D&D is because their other abilities are stronger to compensate for them NOT having armor. If someone could wear plate armor and still have all the abilities of a monk plus the healing of the cleric and the smites of the paladin, this would be an entirely different sort of game.
In an actual point-buy system, different abilities would have different costs. The really powerful stuff would be really expensive, so most characters wouldn't be able to get more than one or two of them and it would cost them a huge amount of flexibility since they'd have to skimp on most other options in order to afford it.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So basically you want to play a completely different game?
There’s only so many things D&D can dump before it’s no longer D&D. Not to mention losing it’s core audience. You’ll note the number of respondents here against the number of players worldwide. Also, I prefer Monks without armor if they want to use their wisdom bonus for armor class, and obviously Barbarians are going to be restrained in their movement while using armor. I’m pretty sure Barbarians getting to add their Constitution modifier to AC is new to 5e (maybe 4e but that was a short lived edition).
Bit of a non sequitur, isn't it?
There are so many other games out there that already do that and do it better than D&D ever could. If that's something you actually want.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Other games that are nowhere near as popular either.
In the words of Miles Davis, so what? Just because they're not as popular doesn't mean that you can't play them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You misunderstand, I was implying that adopting such a system could negatively affect D&D’s popularity. Personally have always loved Shadowrun (despite seeming to die every other session) but that doesn’t mean it would translate well to D&D.
Which is why I recommended playing a different game.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You say that like it's easy to do. I live in a very populated area and it's difficult to find campaigns for things that aren't D&D 5E or Pathfinder. You basically have to be "in the know" with the right groups to find GMs who run things like Shadowrun, Mutants & Masterminds, Mage:tA, etc. AND players open to learning those more complex rule sets. It was difficult before Covid, and it's gotten harder since.
Very much agree with you, Tilda. There's no real space for Monk in D&D because of how "high fantasy" the default settings of Forgotten Realms are. And "high fantasy" mostly means a vaguely European, Tolkien/Lewis-derived idea of magic, armor, and weaponry. The reason why 5E Monks underperform so much is that the devs looked at the concept as one being very much separate from that of the base classes of original D&D: Fighter, Thief, Wizard, Cleric. Monk as a game class identity is vague. So we got some hodge podge of mechanics for somebody who is Fighter-ish, but not very hard hitting. Rogue-ish, but can't Disengage or Dash without spending a limited resource. Some can kinda cast spells, but their spell resource is totally different from all other spellcasters, which makes multi-classing a pain. In summary, It's half-baked because the devs watched some kung fu movies, slapped on some mechanics, and called it a day.
At the very least, it does not hurt to give us the option to take classes/subclasses apart and treat each feature like feats where you can mix and match. Just as not every table uses side initiative, gritty realism rest, spell points, or even feats, not every table needs to use DIY classes/subclasses, but it is still nice to have it as an available option for those of us who want it.
With mixing and matching features, you can replace Martial Arts and Unarmored Movement with other features that is similar but does not have armor restrictions. That way, everyone gets to play their own fantasy of what a Monk is, or at least closer to that fantasy.
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To be fair, the Monk is most easily identifiable as a Ninja / Samurai type class (or just general Wire Fu) and works perfectly for that. It is also fair to say that it doesn’t easily transfer over to a European / Carribean setting, which is definitely the default for most people. And yes, despite having some fun utility and movement, the Monk definitely underperforms in combat. Every time I see a class ranking, the Monk and Artificer are fighting over the bottom spot.
Edit: this was a reply to Song_of_Blues and Tilda_Wildbramble if it seems confusing.
I believe that there are 3 things that keep Monk at the bottom of the Class Rankings.
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
And you think it would be any easier to turn D&D into a point-build rule system without character classes?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I didn't say that either, did I?
History part 2: about the time the monk appeared TSR also introduced 3 new settings, 2 of which had whole new classes, Forgotten Realms, Oriental Adventures and an Arabian/Middle Eastern themed one. The monk was a sort of import from oriental adventures where there were classes similar to the sohei monks. Welcome to legacy pieces that are too popular to drop but not popular enough to spend a lot of time on. The truth is an unarmored fighter on a massed battle field full of armored foes (or even vs a smallish group, 5-20) stands almost no chance. As for opening up features for general selection - welcome to unbalancing the game horribly. It would be a power gamer’s delight - until they discovered the DM is an even better power gamer with the NPCs. Think of the classes and subclasses as being similar to the rules for sonnets and Haiku poetry - it’s fairly easy to write a decent poem in free verse, but while it’s much harder to do so in a rules bound system the result is generally of higher quality because of the increased effort and creativity. You might want to go read the short book “ The Dot and the Line.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
@OctoberGeek (sorry quoting feature not working for me)
I'm sorry but that would not be D&D, and would lead to people only cherry picking the best abilities and combinations of features without any of the drawbacks that come along with it. The reason monks don't get armor in D&D is because their other abilities are stronger to compensate for them NOT having armor. If someone could wear plate armor and still have all the abilities of a monk plus the healing of the cleric and the smites of the paladin, this would be an entirely different sort of game.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Maybe related to how the classes work. For Barbarian I can see those restrictions existing so you don't get too Overpowered, and monks need the free movement and agility.
<< Life is ephemeral. Phyrexia is eternal >>
In an actual point-buy system, different abilities would have different costs. The really powerful stuff would be really expensive, so most characters wouldn't be able to get more than one or two of them and it would cost them a huge amount of flexibility since they'd have to skimp on most other options in order to afford it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah, point buy isn't broken, it's just not D&D.