At the end of the day it boils down one very really basic but fundamental principle of game design.
Class balance is relative to core mechanical balance. If we are not all using the same core, trying to balance the classes against the core becomes an impossible chore. The reason classes "feel" and are unbalanced is that the core of the balance of the game is based on 6-8 encounters per day structure which no one uses, as such, fiddling with martial or caster classes to try to tune them is objectively impossible to balance given that each of us are using a different version of core. Balance the core and create a centralized structure on which all of our games are balanced and then we can have a conversation about how to tune classes, but its kind of pointless right now because you're balancing classes based on "your" version of core balance, not "a" or "my" core balance. Your game and my game are different because neither of us are playing the same game.
Nah I disagree that the encounters per day fixes this. While it helps, the fighter isn't going to have enough hit dice to "be resourceless". The casters run out of spells a little earlier than the fighter runs out of hp but not that much earlier (and second wind rocks at early levels but isn't that meaningful later).
Simple healing potions do not give casters back spell slots but they do give martials back their HP. If spell slot VS Hit Points is your resource argument. Nothing but a rest gives casters back their spell slots.
In one resent campaign we had a good fight going. 6 characters total. After the 5th fight on the crawl or day the casters were down to 2 leveled spells total plus cantrips, all the healing potions and spells were used up. The martials had max hit points and full attack and defense abilities. The casters had max hit points and nothing more than cantrips to rely on. And this was when all the characters were at 13th level.
More options would go a long way IMO, especially if it introduces some things that others can't do.
High on my list would be more kinds of melee actions/reactions (parry for any martial anyone?); access to multiple styles maybe tied to weapons so you can't bring more than one into play at a time (my whole life is "fighter" and I can't be good at bows and swords?!); more options in tactical movement/shoving/etc (BG gets this more right).
They are trying to compare the martial and the caster over a period of rounds, one combat. The caster will win all the time.
But if they have another combat before a rest of any kind? How about the third combat before a rest?
The fighter is just as strong in the last fight as he was in the first. The caster not so much. All of his spells are used up while the fighter just keeps swinging.
The fighters attacks start lower than the casters but they never go down where as the casters attacks always go down.
Ehhh it's true to a point. As those spell casters are burning their slots, the martial is likely running out of hit dice anyway. Sure they can "do just as much damage" if only they were able to stay conscious.
Nah I disagree that the encounters per day fixes this. While it helps, the fighter isn't going to have enough hit dice to "be resourceless". The casters run out of spells a little earlier than the fighter runs out of hp but not that much earlier (and second wind rocks at early levels but isn't that meaningful later).
You are kind of making it sound like I'm guessing or theorizing. I ran a 2-year campaign using this rule, it works. How long have you tried Gritty Realism to come to this conclusion?
Ehhh it's true to a point. As those spell casters are burning their slots, the martial is likely running out of hit dice anyway. Sure they can "do just as much damage" if only they were able to stay conscious.
You would think so but in practice, that doesn't really happen. What actually happens is that players figure out the system and start working to circumvent it. In the absence of natural healing, they find other ways. Potions primarily, scrolls, henchmen Clerics or Cleric services in towns, pretty much anything they can think of. They find work arounds.
You would be surprised how much more interesting the game gets when you can't fix everything with spells.
Fighters and other martial classes are hard hitters, especially at low levels. At high levels they can't compete with big hitting spells like Fireball. But against single targets they still do a solid job keeping up with burst and ongoing damage.
One of the massive misunderstanding of DMs, including the professionals who write the official 5e modules is the number of encounters per long rest. It's supposed to be 5-10 encounters per rest with ten being more common than five. Running an average of say 8 encounters per long rest brings much better class balance as pure casters are mostly using cantrips that at best match a great axe in damage until level 5. With between 2-5 spell slots for a low level caster, they need to pick and choose when to shine.
At higher levels, or in a campaign with one fight per long rest, I like to hand out magical items for martial classes to help balance out the power of spells when a caster can confidently use their most powerful spells during the two rounds of fighting between long rests.
In a "deadly" campaign, the survivability of the fighter starts to shine. High AC at low levels, high HP always makes it harder to knock them out of a fight than a caster with much lower abilities to survive a fight. Add in enemies intentionally targeting the squishy spell casters when they have enough intelligence to do so and your group will want the fighter to pick up a cleric level of carry a huge stockpile of healing potions.
Generally speaking fighters aren't supposed to be AOE damage dealers or crowd control characters, that is the job of casters. The fighter move into direct contact with the hard hitting enemy and punishes them for targeting others.
I agree they shouldn't be AOE but they should be better at the direct contact (or indirect if you like bows).
The encounter day thing kind of breaks down when cantrips scale like they do (sure not as good as a spell slot but often not that much worse). Also after those 5-10 encounters how many hit dice and hp do you suppose your "durable" front line fighter has left? If second wind scaled better with higher levels (and arguably it might be too good at lower ones) then I might be more inclined to agree with the argument.
Going back to the initial set of statements, so what is the goal for improvements with the Fighter (martial classes) then? Is it to have more fun options to bring to the table; or is it modify the build completely so they match the spellcasters all around?
Martials should have comparable plot power to spellcasters. It doesn't have to work the same way, but in the end, spellcasters can reshape the world, and martials really can't without a lot of DM assistance.
Yes! It should not feel like "I'm taking fighter because I like it even though my character will be less than (especially at higher levels)."
I would note that an awful lot of the proposals for how to improve martials add new features at low levels. That's not what's needed; martials are generally better than casters in tier 1. New features that influence combat power should come on line in tier 3 and 4, though things that just make them more interesting to play or grant out of combat options can come earlier.
I could buy this if (a) the casters got far fewer resources as they increase in level and (b) the martials actually had more resources (you can say they are resourceless but a fighter's best resource is hp/hd and they are in just as bad a shape as the caster after 5-10 encounters)
Yeah, but isn't that the gimmick? Spellcasters study how to reshape the world; Martials study weaponry and battle techniques.
So other than providing the martial classes with more powerful weapons and armor, how does this gap get bridged?
Reshaping the world is not a gimmick, it's an effect. The gap gets bridged by providing world-shaping abilities for martials. This pretty much means legendary feats of strength, speed, charisma, etc. The UA rogue's Stroke of Luck feature, if the rules gave more examples of what DC 30 really means (and heck, DC 35 and 40, it's not like those aren't achievable numbers), would be an example of this type of ability.
Yes! Why the heck do martials get trapped in low fantasy while the casters live in high fantasy. Look no further than Hercules, Achilles, Beowulf, Conan for examples of extraordinary feats by warriors that aren't even possible while the wizard walks around with his wish spell.
How about some abilities that map to this-
- Legendary resistance instead of indomitable is a good example of this.
- An ability where a fighter can substitute a CON save for a WIS/CHA save so many times a day could be another (overcoming things with sheer physical stamina)
hp/hd are a kind of meaningless resource by tier 3; you have plenty of cash by that level to burn through healing potions like water.
Ah so once again the martials are fine as long as some external resource (healing potion, magic weapon, etc) is available. How about a class design where they are just good on their own?
Or you could add rules (back) to the largely undefined areas of the game. Right now, if you want to acquire drinking water, you can probably roll a check or two, and if you succeed, you can get the water. Any character can do it, but the rules are fuzzy. There's also a non-fuzzy way: be a caster and use Create Water. Isn't that... Strange? That the "normal" way of doing things has no hard rules, but a caster can do it guaranteed?
This is the line of thinking that originally got us the Thief class, which would eventually become the Rogue.
I will remind you all that in the Dying Earth novels upon which the so-called Vancian magic system that D&D uses was based, anyone can cast spells. Yes, that's right. Anyone. And yet, the designers made it so that only Magic-Users (who would eventually become Wizards) could do it. And only Thieves (who would become Rogues) could pick pockets. The game has evolved to a point where anyone can pick pockets, but it's still only Magic-Users who can cast spells.
Think about all the things you can do if the DM lets you, but if you're a caster you can do them guaranteed. Find water. Acquire trained horses. Get a weapon enchanted. Heal someone. Set a trap. Find a lost object. Scare someone into surrendering. The list goes on. How many of these would fit into a class fantasy? But instead, they're spells. There's more, too. Some that aren't spells either. Raise a fighting force. Train a wild animal. Reverse engineer a device. Find a legal loophole. Create art.
If you locked these away behind classes, the way the designers did with magic spells -- and I remind you, they did that in defiance of the source material, so don't get on my case about how it doesn't work that way in real life or in fiction -- I think you'd find a more satisfying class fantasy for each class, as well as a more interesting game in the areas that don't involve sticking swords in the bad guys. But hey, what do I know.
Honestly, I would not call the game evolving to everyone being a spell caster a good evolution, though I agree it's definitely heading in that direction. Spell casters more often than not, break adventures with their "magic solves all problems" approach, it's only popular with players BECAUSE they can break the game with all of their gadgetry, which makes them feel powerful. It is in a sense a form of infinite power creep and it's actually making playing D&D incredibly boring, one core issue on a laundry list of core issues with 5e. It doesn't matter what problem you throw at the players by a certain level ALL problems can be solved with magic. It's actually fundamentally the core reason modern D&D campaigns are short and virtually never go beyond 10th level and most published adventure campaigns run by DM's never finish. In a sense, published adventures assume that powerful caster won't cause a problem but most of them are easily circumvented with magic and not as intended leaving DM's scrambling to figure out how to fix them with no advice offered (see this forum as evidence). The primary reason is that by 10th level, casters are basically immortal gods who have Genie-like powers of everything. You name it, they can fix it and they can do it better than those without magic.
The course correction here shouldn't be to turn martial classes into casters, it should be a dramatic reduction of the utility powers of casters included with the re-balancing of the adventure day, course correction on monster design, a significant reduction on power creep and a who bunch of crap I don't even have the energy to repeat.
The evolution of D&D right now is based on what is popular with players, as is the future of this game (See UA process) and players aren't thinking about what makes a story good, a balanced game or an interesting campaign, they are thinking about their builds, character level progression, class comparison balance (which is what players think balance is) and effective utility of the "I can do everything" levers.
This evolution of D&D and what it's based on is why 5th edition is so immensely popular and is still (mechanically) a pretty shitty version of D&D and unquestionably the hardest one to DM. It's a game design based on what players want, not what makes a good game. WotC doesn't see the distinction and neither does the vast majority of the player base, which is a great way to sell books and to create a very marketable game, it's not a great way to make a good, balanced game. Everyone thinks they are a game designer but all anyone designs is more power creep as if 5e characters who are basically immortal gods by 10th level are still somehow not powerful enough, fast enough.
I do have to admit a desire to play Dragonbane or Forbidden Lands lately but I stick with my table because they like 5e.
hp/hd are a kind of meaningless resource by tier 3; you have plenty of cash by that level to burn through healing potions like water.
Ah so once again the martials are fine as long as some external resource (healing potion, magic weapon, etc) is available. How about a class design where they are just good on their own?
That's not a 'martials are fine' argument. It's just that running out of healing resources isn't something the game can usefully balance around in tier 3-4.
Yeah, but isn't that the gimmick? Spellcasters study how to reshape the world; Martials study weaponry and battle techniques.
So other than providing the martial classes with more powerful weapons and armor, how does this gap get bridged?
Reshaping the world is not a gimmick, it's an effect. The gap gets bridged by providing world-shaping abilities for martials. This pretty much means legendary feats of strength, speed, charisma, etc. The UA rogue's Stroke of Luck feature, if the rules gave more examples of what DC 30 really means (and heck, DC 35 and 40, it's not like those aren't achievable numbers), would be an example of this type of ability.
I agree with the increase of abilities and legendary feats. I am not challenging that and the Stroke of Luck features is a good attribute for the rogue's class. Again, I do think there is plenty of room for improved feats and features to the martial (sub)classes in the game.
The question I still have is if these improved abilities would satisfy the arguments proposed throughout the thread. I feel like no matter what boons and legendary feats the martial classes will be receiving, to some, they will always pale in comparison to capabilities of spells. And that is because spells literally reshape the world of the game. Martial classes can grow to a superhero status, but it will most likely be limited to Batman and Captain America levels. And that is still great. But as non-spellcasters they will be limited to their physical capabilities and limited to accessing the benefits that magical manipulation offers in the game.
I am all for increasing the legendary feats and even improving some of the (sub)classes features, but will that be enough to close the gap to the spellcasting improvements?
Yeah, but isn't that the gimmick? Spellcasters study how to reshape the world; Martials study weaponry and battle techniques.
So other than providing the martial classes with more powerful weapons and armor, how does this gap get bridged?
Reshaping the world is not a gimmick, it's an effect. The gap gets bridged by providing world-shaping abilities for martials. This pretty much means legendary feats of strength, speed, charisma, etc. The UA rogue's Stroke of Luck feature, if the rules gave more examples of what DC 30 really means (and heck, DC 35 and 40, it's not like those aren't achievable numbers), would be an example of this type of ability.
I agree with the increase of abilities and legendary feats. I am not challenging that and the Stroke of Luck features is a good attribute for the rogue's class. Again, I do think there is plenty of room for improved feats and features to the martial (sub)classes in the game.
The question I still have is if these improved abilities would satisfy the arguments proposed throughout the thread. I feel like no matter what boons and legendary feats the martial classes will be receiving, to some, they will always pale in comparison to capabilities of spells. And that is because spells literally reshape the world of the game. Martial classes can grow to a superhero status, but it will most likely be limited to Batman and Captain America levels. And that is still great. But as non-spellcasters they will be limited to their physical capabilities and limited to accessing the benefits that magical manipulation offers in the game.
I am all for increasing the legendary feats and even improving some of the (sub)classes features, but will that be enough to close the gap to the spellcasting improvements?
I think the gap could be closed. it would require people letting go of the idea that martials have to somehow "adhere to reality" (i.e., they have to be low fantasy) and giving them really powerful abilities to shrug off damage, dish it out, move around like nobody's business, just immense awesome physical prowess that scales. To your question though, if my martial could feel like Batman to your caster's Superman that would require a lot of improvements to the martials.
Martial classes can grow to a superhero status, but it will most likely be limited to Batman and Captain America levels.
Why should that be the case? Heracles is a martial hero. He's also a demigod, but so?
That is fair. I consider the notion of a superhero to be on par with that of a demigod. And Heracles tales focused on his physicality, wits, and skills in combat. Which is like Batman and Captain America. Again. all great things. But the these are not stories about heroes who manipulate the fabric of the universe (and they don't have to be in order to be impressive).
I am all about giving an epic boon to the Fighter that is: "You have reached the status of a Hero and civilizations will write epics of your exploits for generation after generation. Take the following array of scores: 26, 25, 24, 22, 20, 18 and apply to your ability scores. If you have magical items that increases a score; you may apply the items' bonus to increase you ability score to no higher than 30. " At level 20, they should be great. But my concern is there will still be comments like "Yeah, but a Wizard can banish targets to another plane at like level 7. Imagine what they can do at level 20."
A Wizard being able to Banish wouldn't be such a big deal if he was meaningfully worse at any of the things his nonmagical allies are supposed to be experts at.
I am not sure this is an idea of "adhere to reality". There are martial classes that have abilities to increase movement, shrug off damage, dish it out, etc. Monks can potentially stun targets and catch missiles; Barbarians can have bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage halved; and there are other features we can look at as well. Can these continue to scale? Potentially, if the build out makes sense within the game. But if you read up on what the classes can do some items transcend reality even in the world of D&D.
One of the biggest limiting factors to the martial classes is they rely on tools to some degree. For example, most classes' damage is based on the weaponry selection and not the class (I said "most", Monks). Feats and features can be added but the weapon is defined. It is not like at level 6 they gain access to a warhammer than does 3d8. So the question now comes how to address this. Do you rely on the DM to give out magical weapons with enhanced powers? Do you build in features to the class that allow them to increase the damage of specific weapon attack? Do you build in new abilities to allow a character or their allies to gain advantages over targets? This is where the debate comes in and it can vary based on class.
My opinion is, for the most part, the scaling is good until tier 3 and then some classes pull a respectable tier 4 together. I still feel there needs to be some boons post level 10 and redesign for a few (sub)classes.
But I don't compare to the spellcaster. I compare to what the martial characters should be doing. I look at a (sub)class with a decent feature at a level and compare with how the others scale against it. What they are expected to do is different than a caster. There are things with a caster I would change to help balance an adventure more but I don't relate that to the improved or modified abilities I want on a martial class. And I feel these improvements should come post level 10 for the most part. There are still some really cool things a martial character can do.
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Nah I disagree that the encounters per day fixes this. While it helps, the fighter isn't going to have enough hit dice to "be resourceless". The casters run out of spells a little earlier than the fighter runs out of hp but not that much earlier (and second wind rocks at early levels but isn't that meaningful later).
Simple healing potions do not give casters back spell slots but they do give martials back their HP.
If spell slot VS Hit Points is your resource argument.
Nothing but a rest gives casters back their spell slots.
In one resent campaign we had a good fight going. 6 characters total.
After the 5th fight on the crawl or day the casters were down to 2 leveled spells total plus cantrips, all the healing potions and spells were used up.
The martials had max hit points and full attack and defense abilities. The casters had max hit points and nothing more than cantrips to rely on.
And this was when all the characters were at 13th level.
More options would go a long way IMO, especially if it introduces some things that others can't do.
High on my list would be more kinds of melee actions/reactions (parry for any martial anyone?); access to multiple styles maybe tied to weapons so you can't bring more than one into play at a time (my whole life is "fighter" and I can't be good at bows and swords?!); more options in tactical movement/shoving/etc (BG gets this more right).
Ehhh it's true to a point. As those spell casters are burning their slots, the martial is likely running out of hit dice anyway. Sure they can "do just as much damage" if only they were able to stay conscious.
You are kind of making it sound like I'm guessing or theorizing. I ran a 2-year campaign using this rule, it works. How long have you tried Gritty Realism to come to this conclusion?
You would think so but in practice, that doesn't really happen. What actually happens is that players figure out the system and start working to circumvent it. In the absence of natural healing, they find other ways. Potions primarily, scrolls, henchmen Clerics or Cleric services in towns, pretty much anything they can think of. They find work arounds.
You would be surprised how much more interesting the game gets when you can't fix everything with spells.
I agree they shouldn't be AOE but they should be better at the direct contact (or indirect if you like bows).
The encounter day thing kind of breaks down when cantrips scale like they do (sure not as good as a spell slot but often not that much worse). Also after those 5-10 encounters how many hit dice and hp do you suppose your "durable" front line fighter has left? If second wind scaled better with higher levels (and arguably it might be too good at lower ones) then I might be more inclined to agree with the argument.
Yes! It should not feel like "I'm taking fighter because I like it even though my character will be less than (especially at higher levels)."
I would note that an awful lot of the proposals for how to improve martials add new features at low levels. That's not what's needed; martials are generally better than casters in tier 1. New features that influence combat power should come on line in tier 3 and 4, though things that just make them more interesting to play or grant out of combat options can come earlier.
I could buy this if (a) the casters got far fewer resources as they increase in level and (b) the martials actually had more resources (you can say they are resourceless but a fighter's best resource is hp/hd and they are in just as bad a shape as the caster after 5-10 encounters)
hp/hd are a kind of meaningless resource by tier 3; you have plenty of cash by that level to burn through healing potions like water.
Yes! Why the heck do martials get trapped in low fantasy while the casters live in high fantasy. Look no further than Hercules, Achilles, Beowulf, Conan for examples of extraordinary feats by warriors that aren't even possible while the wizard walks around with his wish spell.
How about some abilities that map to this-
- Legendary resistance instead of indomitable is a good example of this.
- An ability where a fighter can substitute a CON save for a WIS/CHA save so many times a day could be another (overcoming things with sheer physical stamina)
Ah so once again the martials are fine as long as some external resource (healing potion, magic weapon, etc) is available. How about a class design where they are just good on their own?
I do have to admit a desire to play Dragonbane or Forbidden Lands lately but I stick with my table because they like 5e.
That's not a 'martials are fine' argument. It's just that running out of healing resources isn't something the game can usefully balance around in tier 3-4.
I agree with the increase of abilities and legendary feats. I am not challenging that and the Stroke of Luck features is a good attribute for the rogue's class. Again, I do think there is plenty of room for improved feats and features to the martial (sub)classes in the game.
The question I still have is if these improved abilities would satisfy the arguments proposed throughout the thread. I feel like no matter what boons and legendary feats the martial classes will be receiving, to some, they will always pale in comparison to capabilities of spells. And that is because spells literally reshape the world of the game. Martial classes can grow to a superhero status, but it will most likely be limited to Batman and Captain America levels. And that is still great. But as non-spellcasters they will be limited to their physical capabilities and limited to accessing the benefits that magical manipulation offers in the game.
I am all for increasing the legendary feats and even improving some of the (sub)classes features, but will that be enough to close the gap to the spellcasting improvements?
Why should that be the case? Heracles is a martial hero. He's also a demigod, but so?
I think the gap could be closed. it would require people letting go of the idea that martials have to somehow "adhere to reality" (i.e., they have to be low fantasy) and giving them really powerful abilities to shrug off damage, dish it out, move around like nobody's business, just immense awesome physical prowess that scales. To your question though, if my martial could feel like Batman to your caster's Superman that would require a lot of improvements to the martials.
That is fair. I consider the notion of a superhero to be on par with that of a demigod. And Heracles tales focused on his physicality, wits, and skills in combat. Which is like Batman and Captain America. Again. all great things. But the these are not stories about heroes who manipulate the fabric of the universe (and they don't have to be in order to be impressive).
I am all about giving an epic boon to the Fighter that is: "You have reached the status of a Hero and civilizations will write epics of your exploits for generation after generation. Take the following array of scores: 26, 25, 24, 22, 20, 18 and apply to your ability scores. If you have magical items that increases a score; you may apply the items' bonus to increase you ability score to no higher than 30. " At level 20, they should be great. But my concern is there will still be comments like "Yeah, but a Wizard can banish targets to another plane at like level 7. Imagine what they can do at level 20."
A Wizard being able to Banish wouldn't be such a big deal if he was meaningfully worse at any of the things his nonmagical allies are supposed to be experts at.
I am not sure this is an idea of "adhere to reality". There are martial classes that have abilities to increase movement, shrug off damage, dish it out, etc. Monks can potentially stun targets and catch missiles; Barbarians can have bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage halved; and there are other features we can look at as well. Can these continue to scale? Potentially, if the build out makes sense within the game. But if you read up on what the classes can do some items transcend reality even in the world of D&D.
One of the biggest limiting factors to the martial classes is they rely on tools to some degree. For example, most classes' damage is based on the weaponry selection and not the class (I said "most", Monks). Feats and features can be added but the weapon is defined. It is not like at level 6 they gain access to a warhammer than does 3d8. So the question now comes how to address this. Do you rely on the DM to give out magical weapons with enhanced powers? Do you build in features to the class that allow them to increase the damage of specific weapon attack? Do you build in new abilities to allow a character or their allies to gain advantages over targets? This is where the debate comes in and it can vary based on class.
My opinion is, for the most part, the scaling is good until tier 3 and then some classes pull a respectable tier 4 together. I still feel there needs to be some boons post level 10 and redesign for a few (sub)classes.
But I don't compare to the spellcaster. I compare to what the martial characters should be doing. I look at a (sub)class with a decent feature at a level and compare with how the others scale against it. What they are expected to do is different than a caster. There are things with a caster I would change to help balance an adventure more but I don't relate that to the improved or modified abilities I want on a martial class. And I feel these improvements should come post level 10 for the most part. There are still some really cool things a martial character can do.