I put down graphics, since the maps I use are actually VTT things that I build (Talespire), so it's technically that?
I've played lots of Theatre of the Mind, both DnD and other systems (Call of Cthullu and Dragonquest being some).
And I hate it.
It inevitably leads to a LOT of weirdness when it comes to the flow of a fight. There's no real room for long-term strategy, the players and DM's often mix up positioning and range, and things get exponentially messier the larger a fight gets.
This is versus a map with minis (simple 2d stuff or full blown 3D, either will do), where you always know exactly where the characters are, what features are on the terrain, what sorts of things you can take advantage of, make long-term plans with regards to distances and holding points... long list that goes on.
The added bonus is having that nice visualization. Which I know some people feel like is a bad replacement for imagination, but I feel like you can have both. I also simply like making the maps and minis, and have always enjoyed conjuring the visuals for things on the board.
Naturally, it goes without saying; my critique of theatre of the mind is based on MY experiences. I'm sure many of you have had much smoother games where the rules and lay of the battlefield didn't constantly flip, or where there was never space/ distance confusion. Great for you all, glad to hear it! But I've personally found that games where everyone is looking at the same thing and has access the same information have just always gone better.
Naturally, it goes without saying; my critique of theatre of the mind is based on MY experiences. I'm sure many of you have had much smoother games where the rules and lay of the battlefield didn't constantly flip, or where there was never space/ distance confusion. Great for you all, glad to hear it! But I've personally found that games where everyone is looking at the same thing and has access the same information have just always gone better.
There is never confusion around space/distance or lay of the battlefield in TotM games because you just choose to not use those rules and just let people attack stuff on their turn without worrying about minutiae like whether you actually have enough movement speed left, whether enemies are actually clumped up enough to AOE, etc.
On the plus side it speeds up combat by removing combat mechanics that some people find boring, tedious, and restrictive; on the negative side it simplifies combat by removing combat mechanics that other people find tactically engaging and interesting. Whether you enjoy TotM or combat maps more will depend heavily on whether you find the strategic aspect of fights to be interesting or boring.
Naturally, it goes without saying; my critique of theatre of the mind is based on MY experiences. I'm sure many of you have had much smoother games where the rules and lay of the battlefield didn't constantly flip, or where there was never space/ distance confusion. Great for you all, glad to hear it! But I've personally found that games where everyone is looking at the same thing and has access the same information have just always gone better.
There is never confusion around space/distance or lay of the battlefield in TotM games because you just choose to not use those rules and just let people attack stuff on their turn without worrying about minutiae like whether you actually have enough movement speed left, whether enemies are actually clumped up enough to AOE, etc.
On the plus side it speeds up combat by removing combat mechanics that some people find boring, tedious, and restrictive; on the negative side it simplifies combat by removing combat mechanics that other people find tactically engaging and interesting. Whether you enjoy TotM or combat maps more will depend heavily on whether you find the strategic aspect of fights to be interesting or boring.
The thing is that D&D strongly favors the tactical side, as opposed to something like one of the World of Darkness games that favor a more abstract/narrative combat setup. Imo a D&D combat session you try to run as pure TotM is a lot more likely to end up feeling unfulfilling as opposed to a softer combat system, because the majority of spells and features have hard descriptions of what they can do that are built on the assumption that you'll be playing more tactically.
The thing is that D&D strongly favors the tactical side, as opposed to something like one of the World of Darkness games that favor a more abstract/narrative combat setup. Imo a D&D combat session you try to run as pure TotM is a lot more likely to end up feeling unfulfilling as opposed to a softer combat system, because the majority of spells and features have hard descriptions of what they can do that are built on the assumption that you'll be playing more tactically.
I'd say the real strength of DnD is that it is flexible enough that both methods work pretty well, and either playstyle can be "best" if that is what the group prefers. Also you can switch styles from one combat to the next, which is what I would've voted for if it were an option.
As far as what DnD mechanics favor, personally I'd argue the opposite of you wrote. I think DnD mechanics strongly favor the Theater of the Mind approach, but that's just my opinion on what I find more interesting. For my money, MMORPGs with a group of players all reacting in real time provide infinitely better tactical combat than DnD ever could, but DnD combat is far better at providing an open-ended imaginative experience. Either answer completely makes sense though depending on what each player prefers
I love this question. Thank you for asking this. (Love the answers.)
During game, I try to use as few tools as possible. (However, I'm always testing new stuff to see how it affects game cadence.) I use an iPad, notebook, dice, and mesh map with markers. The iPad is invaluable, though, because I can use it to link up to D&D Beyond and show the group pictures of their Characters, NPCS, or scenes.
The rest goes directly into their brain, I guess.
But before I act like I'm a master of the "Theater of the Mind", when it comes to PRE and POST game preparation, I'm building artwork and using map programs and even generating sound and music files. So yep, I support tools - I'm sold.
But here's what I do for the party to support the Theater of the Mind:
They're enjoying homebrew (They agreed to this). I'm using 5e rules, but I revised all the races and classes and have them surviving in a world that has lots of mystery. They like the "newness". When they face a creature, they don't see weak kobolds; they see a feral growling humanoids gathering in the shadows.
I always add a pregame surprise. Between games, I'll find a way to throw something in that creates a hook, creates anticipation, let's them know something is coming, etc. For example, I might have rumors growing in the city. (This week, I'm actually going to send them a message about their dreams; each character is having one with some significant elements of their last encounter.) +1 theatre of the mind.
All I'm really saying is that there's a benefit when your players stop thinking of NPCs, Feats, etc. as statistics. I'm not saying it has to go away completely, but between logic and feelings, there's a good place where this game thrives.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Player since 1978. Dungeon Master since 1980.
Basic and Advanced Ed. - Still have my basic boxed set. Still have my Deities & Demigods (1st print Cthulhu/Melnibonean). 2nd Ed. 3.5, 5th Ed. - Played in various tournaments throughout the US back in the 80's and 90's; it was great to crawl with you all.
~Avid Nerd I work with data, data analysis, data science, automation programming by profession. If I can help out, feel free to ask.
So we have an adventure map, towns and dungeons are totm but battles are standees and counters meassured by steel ruler to the desired distance, move and attacks are messure by steel ruler too but magic is messured with a aoe template we dont use map as its a small table(just about enough tcg space) and limited room as is for storing gaming stuff
I did think about grid paper books but fear the spine may get in the way of play
If i ever do map it'll be on a durable dry and wet erase map
If i ever do map it'll be on a durable dry and wet erase map
Chessex produces some of the best battle mats out there. They are vinyl so need wet erase markers. I still have mine from decades ago. Would recommend hexes as they are far superior to squares when playing an RPG combat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
If i ever do map it'll be on a durable dry and wet erase map
Chessex produces some of the best battle mats out there. They are vinyl so need wet erase markers. I still have mine from decades ago. Would recommend hexes as they are far superior to squares when playing an RPG combat.
apart from being the same as my adventure maps why would hexes be better?
If i ever do map it'll be on a durable dry and wet erase map
Chessex produces some of the best battle mats out there. They are vinyl so need wet erase markers. I still have mine from decades ago. Would recommend hexes as they are far superior to squares when playing an RPG combat.
apart from being the same as my adventure maps why would hexes be better?
Facing.
That is, the position of enemies around a character. Hex is more effective a use overall because there are six direction, as opposed to four, which gives it a more "realistic" feel. If you use grids, you have to enable "catty-corner" in order to reach 8 to 1, whereas with hexes you get the 6 to 1 and you don't have to alter terrain set ups.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
If i ever do map it'll be on a durable dry and wet erase map
Chessex produces some of the best battle mats out there. They are vinyl so need wet erase markers. I still have mine from decades ago. Would recommend hexes as they are far superior to squares when playing an RPG combat.
apart from being the same as my adventure maps why would hexes be better?
Facing.
That is, the position of enemies around a character. Hex is more effective a use overall because there are six direction, as opposed to four, which gives it a more "realistic" feel. If you use grids, you have to enable "catty-corner" in order to reach 8 to 1, whereas with hexes you get the 6 to 1 and you don't have to alter terrain set ups.
wouldnt no hex no grid albeit a bit slow due to measuring most realistic due to allowing for full free movenht? Like i say slower though
The drawback to hexes is that moving across the board or otherwise measuring distance or marking out an affected area can be less intuitive. Just making diagonals adjacent and handwaving the exact mathematical issues is easier for people to pick up, particularly if you’re eyeballing it rather than using something like a VTT with a measurement tool.
The drawback to hexes is that moving across the board or otherwise measuring distance or marking out an affected area can be less intuitive. Just making diagonals adjacent and handwaving the exact mathematical issues is easier for people to pick up, particularly if you’re eyeballing it rather than using something like a VTT with a measurement tool.
The drawback to hexes is that moving across the board or otherwise measuring distance or marking out an affected area can be less intuitive. Just making diagonals adjacent and handwaving the exact mathematical issues is easier for people to pick up, particularly if you’re eyeballing it rather than using something like a VTT with a measurement tool.
does this mean aeo templates are harder on hex?
I certainly would feel much less comfortable eyeballing one, especially a cone.
The drawback to hexes is that moving across the board or otherwise measuring distance or marking out an affected area can be less intuitive. Just making diagonals adjacent and handwaving the exact mathematical issues is easier for people to pick up, particularly if you’re eyeballing it rather than using something like a VTT with a measurement tool.
does this mean aeo templates are harder on hex?
I certainly would feel much less comfortable eyeballing one, especially a cone.
may be grid for me then as i have a template on the way
Just about any area effect is easier to figure out on hexes. With squares it can be a trial (read argument) as to which corners on a square "circular" effect to cut off. Which boxes count for a line area effect?
And you are contradicting that completely when you say to ignore the diagonal for movement and range. You can't ignore the diagonal for movement then say cut off the corners of your square for circular effects.
If you're using a map and markers for spatial relations, whether that map is demarcated into squares, hexes, or unmarked and everyone just uses tape measures and template keys, to resolve combat, yes you're playing an iteration of the war game principles that are fundamental to D&D's DNA. I don't see much to argue against that, name dropping other games derivative of D&D style war gaming or not.
To the question, I usually do theater of the mind, and even when I do combat theater of the mind, I'm often parsing space in my head or using a white board and magic markers, "blocking" the scene so to speak in a way that's still using all the concepts derived from wargaming to resolve that combat.
As a DM, I would prefer to use maps, but most often theater of the mind gets used instead.
MilestoGo_24's alt.
Come participate in the Competition of the Finest Brews, Edition XXI, and share your work!
Be not afraid.
Wait. Actually, be very afraid.
I put down graphics, since the maps I use are actually VTT things that I build (Talespire), so it's technically that?
I've played lots of Theatre of the Mind, both DnD and other systems (Call of Cthullu and Dragonquest being some).
And I hate it.
It inevitably leads to a LOT of weirdness when it comes to the flow of a fight. There's no real room for long-term strategy, the players and DM's often mix up positioning and range, and things get exponentially messier the larger a fight gets.
This is versus a map with minis (simple 2d stuff or full blown 3D, either will do), where you always know exactly where the characters are, what features are on the terrain, what sorts of things you can take advantage of, make long-term plans with regards to distances and holding points... long list that goes on.
The added bonus is having that nice visualization. Which I know some people feel like is a bad replacement for imagination, but I feel like you can have both. I also simply like making the maps and minis, and have always enjoyed conjuring the visuals for things on the board.
Naturally, it goes without saying; my critique of theatre of the mind is based on MY experiences. I'm sure many of you have had much smoother games where the rules and lay of the battlefield didn't constantly flip, or where there was never space/ distance confusion. Great for you all, glad to hear it! But I've personally found that games where everyone is looking at the same thing and has access the same information have just always gone better.
There is never confusion around space/distance or lay of the battlefield in TotM games because you just choose to not use those rules and just let people attack stuff on their turn without worrying about minutiae like whether you actually have enough movement speed left, whether enemies are actually clumped up enough to AOE, etc.
On the plus side it speeds up combat by removing combat mechanics that some people find boring, tedious, and restrictive; on the negative side it simplifies combat by removing combat mechanics that other people find tactically engaging and interesting. Whether you enjoy TotM or combat maps more will depend heavily on whether you find the strategic aspect of fights to be interesting or boring.
The thing is that D&D strongly favors the tactical side, as opposed to something like one of the World of Darkness games that favor a more abstract/narrative combat setup. Imo a D&D combat session you try to run as pure TotM is a lot more likely to end up feeling unfulfilling as opposed to a softer combat system, because the majority of spells and features have hard descriptions of what they can do that are built on the assumption that you'll be playing more tactically.
I'd say the real strength of DnD is that it is flexible enough that both methods work pretty well, and either playstyle can be "best" if that is what the group prefers. Also you can switch styles from one combat to the next, which is what I would've voted for if it were an option.
As far as what DnD mechanics favor, personally I'd argue the opposite of you wrote. I think DnD mechanics strongly favor the Theater of the Mind approach, but that's just my opinion on what I find more interesting. For my money, MMORPGs with a group of players all reacting in real time provide infinitely better tactical combat than DnD ever could, but DnD combat is far better at providing an open-ended imaginative experience. Either answer completely makes sense though depending on what each player prefers
I love this question. Thank you for asking this. (Love the answers.)
During game, I try to use as few tools as possible. (However, I'm always testing new stuff to see how it affects game cadence.) I use an iPad, notebook, dice, and mesh map with markers. The iPad is invaluable, though, because I can use it to link up to D&D Beyond and show the group pictures of their Characters, NPCS, or scenes.
The rest goes directly into their brain, I guess.
But before I act like I'm a master of the "Theater of the Mind", when it comes to PRE and POST game preparation, I'm building artwork and using map programs and even generating sound and music files. So yep, I support tools - I'm sold.
But here's what I do for the party to support the Theater of the Mind:
They're enjoying homebrew (They agreed to this). I'm using 5e rules, but I revised all the races and classes and have them surviving in a world that has lots of mystery. They like the "newness". When they face a creature, they don't see weak kobolds; they see a feral growling humanoids gathering in the shadows.
I always add a pregame surprise. Between games, I'll find a way to throw something in that creates a hook, creates anticipation, let's them know something is coming, etc. For example, I might have rumors growing in the city. (This week, I'm actually going to send them a message about their dreams; each character is having one with some significant elements of their last encounter.) +1 theatre of the mind.
All I'm really saying is that there's a benefit when your players stop thinking of NPCs, Feats, etc. as statistics. I'm not saying it has to go away completely, but between logic and feelings, there's a good place where this game thrives.
Player since 1978. Dungeon Master since 1980.
Basic and Advanced Ed. - Still have my basic boxed set. Still have my Deities & Demigods (1st print Cthulhu/Melnibonean).
2nd Ed. 3.5, 5th Ed.
- Played in various tournaments throughout the US back in the 80's and 90's; it was great to crawl with you all.
~Avid Nerd
I work with data, data analysis, data science, automation programming by profession. If I can help out, feel free to ask.
So we have an adventure map, towns and dungeons are totm but battles are standees and counters meassured by steel ruler to the desired distance, move and attacks are messure by steel ruler too but magic is messured with a aoe template we dont use map as its a small table(just about enough tcg space) and limited room as is for storing gaming stuff
I did think about grid paper books but fear the spine may get in the way of play
If i ever do map it'll be on a durable dry and wet erase map
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
Chessex produces some of the best battle mats out there. They are vinyl so need wet erase markers. I still have mine from decades ago. Would recommend hexes as they are far superior to squares when playing an RPG combat.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
apart from being the same as my adventure maps why would hexes be better?
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
Facing.
That is, the position of enemies around a character. Hex is more effective a use overall because there are six direction, as opposed to four, which gives it a more "realistic" feel. If you use grids, you have to enable "catty-corner" in order to reach 8 to 1, whereas with hexes you get the 6 to 1 and you don't have to alter terrain set ups.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
wouldnt no hex no grid albeit a bit slow due to measuring most realistic due to allowing for full free movenht? Like i say slower though
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
The drawback to hexes is that moving across the board or otherwise measuring distance or marking out an affected area can be less intuitive. Just making diagonals adjacent and handwaving the exact mathematical issues is easier for people to pick up, particularly if you’re eyeballing it rather than using something like a VTT with a measurement tool.
does this mean aeo templates are harder on hex?
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
I certainly would feel much less comfortable eyeballing one, especially a cone.
may be grid for me then as i have a template on the way
Hexes remind me of wargames
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
I don't hate to say that once initiative is rolled, it is a wargame.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I guess combat is a wargame speicaly if you use house rules that make it like Warhammer
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
If you're using a map and markers for spatial relations, whether that map is demarcated into squares, hexes, or unmarked and everyone just uses tape measures and template keys, to resolve combat, yes you're playing an iteration of the war game principles that are fundamental to D&D's DNA. I don't see much to argue against that, name dropping other games derivative of D&D style war gaming or not.
To the question, I usually do theater of the mind, and even when I do combat theater of the mind, I'm often parsing space in my head or using a white board and magic markers, "blocking" the scene so to speak in a way that's still using all the concepts derived from wargaming to resolve that combat.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
if i'm doing totm mind combat you are in mellee,range,near or far/ranged though i've yet to work a good rule for spells
I do prefer totm in general as you can add things in that may not be in your maps if the story takes a unexpected turn that requires a new space
I played a game set in phandalin and the stonehill inn had a grave out back which ended up leading to a previous event
in a hole in the ground you notice a halfling
As long as everyone sitting at the table (virtual or not) agrees I don't see a problem.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.