I expect there to be a new FR sourcebook after the revised edition releases...
The thing is, I expect there not to be.
You may be right, but they've published a bunch of pure setting books over the years, so they presumably sell.
The logical time to drop one would have been alongside MotM. It would have avoided the "lost content" upset and it's just logical. It didn't.
Nah, that'd be a poor time if it were to contain the same content. Everyone who cared about that stuff already had it.
The thing is, they can publish a new FR book for the revised edition while mostly providing new (to 5e) material. The FR is huge, and because of the movie and BG3, it's probably of more interest to people than it has been in some time. The book they'd be replacing is the SCAG. If they cover wide-scale politics, they'll pull in some of the old stuff, just by explaining the cultures involved. Would there be thirty (or whatever) pages on the blood war? Probably not, but so what? Even for the FR, that's some deep-cut lore, and better belongs in a supplement on the outer planes. (which we may also get if Planescape sold well enough) But we'd get a bunch of the elf/draw/dwarf/etc. stuff, contextualized so that it's obviously "this is what the elves/drow/dwarves/whatevers of this part of the FR are like", rather than "This is what elves/drow/dwarves/whatevers are like".
There's also the issue of repeated content. If they come up with lore or whatever for, say, Orcs, then there'll be the expectation of containing the statblocks for those Orcs...which will largely be repeats or close to them. In fact, much of the book would just be repeats...but with the lore put back in again. That's not really going to go down well, especially since it wasn't even hinted at when they sold MotM.
If orcs are in the new main books, why would they need to include stat blocks? That's what core books are for.
If WotC doesn't make any, then support third party that do, via DM's Guild/DTRPG. You'll not only get the lore you want, but you'll signal to WotC that there's a market for that stuff and they should be prioritizing it in their own publication schedule - win/win.
Let's be honest here, lore isn't going to sell books anymore. Even the main proponent in this thread only says they would "likely" buy a lore book. This isn't an issue of the Hasbro overlords squeezing every cent out of the game, it's just basic common sense with regards to running a business. Prioritize the stuff your customers want, don't pour resources into something that even the strongest proponents only "might" buy.
It's already been said here that data shows FR lore applies to the minority of campaigns being played (I personally have never been into FR and honestly was always slightly annoyed at the lore presented in 5e because it labeled all other settings as homebrew), so at most tables the lore is thrown out anyway or at least mostly ignored. It's also noteworthy that the lore from a modern book is not only competing with all of their own books that contain lore, but also info from books, movies, and the massive data repository of the internet - with the latter being largely free. You could literally spend days just looking up and reading lore on the internet with only basic Googling skills.
If you want lore, it's out there. More than you could ever really want. I think what people actually want is a new book that draws them in like X book did when they were young or just getting into the game. Just as with other things where nostalgia is present, that experience is not something you will find again because part of it was where you were in your life and your mindset. A new book with even the richest lore is not going to bring back that feeling in its entirety.
I do think there could be a place for lore in a book about a specific campaign setting, if they ever do those again. But even that is only really needed for new settings. The only new content I need is updated mechanics. Lore does not expire with new editions like mechanics do, so I have decades of that to pull from when I need it.
Let's be honest here, lore isn't going to sell books anymore. Even the main proponent in this thread only says they would "likely" buy a lore book. This isn't an issue of the Hasbro overlords squeezing every cent out of the game, it's just basic common sense with regards to running a business. Prioritize the stuff your customers want, don't pour resources into something that even the strongest proponents only "might" buy.
It's already been said here that data shows FR lore applies to the minority of campaigns being played (I personally have never been into FR and honestly was always slightly annoyed at the lore presented in 5e because it labeled all other settings as homebrew), so at most tables the lore is thrown out anyway or at least mostly ignored. It's also noteworthy that the lore from a modern book is not only competing with all of their own books that contain lore, but also info from books, movies, and the massive data repository of the internet - with the latter being largely free. You could literally spend days just looking up and reading lore on the internet with only basic Googling skills.
If you want lore, it's out there. More than you could ever really want. I think what people actually want is a new book that draws them in like X book did when they were young or just getting into the game. Just as with other things where nostalgia is present, that experience is not something you will find again because part of it was where you were in your life and your mindset. A new book with even the richest lore is not going to bring back that feeling in its entirety.
I do think there could be a place for lore in a book about a specific campaign setting, if they ever do those again. But even that is only really needed for new settings. The only new content I need is updated mechanics. Lore does not expire with new editions like mechanics do, so I have decades of that to pull from when I need it.
Let’s be honest; we don’t have nearly enough information to be able to make an absolute judgement on what will or will not sell books, so it’s rather presumptuous and unproductive to the discussion to simply reject lore out of hand. And I said “likely” because this is a disposable income hobby; if such material came out tomorrow I’d jump on it. It’s not reservations about the quality, just the simple fact that the purchase is not an absolute unqualified certainty.
Let's be honest here, lore isn't going to sell books anymore. Even the main proponent in this thread only says they would "likely" buy a lore book. This isn't an issue of the Hasbro overlords squeezing every cent out of the game, it's just basic common sense with regards to running a business. Prioritize the stuff your customers want, don't pour resources into something that even the strongest proponents only "might" buy.
It's already been said here that data shows FR lore applies to the minority of campaigns being played (I personally have never been into FR and honestly was always slightly annoyed at the lore presented in 5e because it labeled all other settings as homebrew), so at most tables the lore is thrown out anyway or at least mostly ignored. It's also noteworthy that the lore from a modern book is not only competing with all of their own books that contain lore, but also info from books, movies, and the massive data repository of the internet - with the latter being largely free. You could literally spend days just looking up and reading lore on the internet with only basic Googling skills.
If you want lore, it's out there. More than you could ever really want. I think what people actually want is a new book that draws them in like X book did when they were young or just getting into the game. Just as with other things where nostalgia is present, that experience is not something you will find again because part of it was where you were in your life and your mindset. A new book with even the richest lore is not going to bring back that feeling in its entirety.
I do think there could be a place for lore in a book about a specific campaign setting, if they ever do those again. But even that is only really needed for new settings. The only new content I need is updated mechanics. Lore does not expire with new editions like mechanics do, so I have decades of that to pull from when I need it.
Let’s be honest; we don’t have nearly enough information to be able to make an absolute judgement on what will or will not sell books, so it’s rather presumptuous and unproductive to the discussion to simply reject lore out of hand. And I said “likely” because this is a disposable income hobby; if such material came out tomorrow I’d jump on it. It’s not reservations about the quality, just the simple fact that the purchase is not an absolute unqualified certainty.
A quality book sells. Word gets out fast about books that are not high quality, and they don't sell. I know of any number of DM's that would buy a book that was a central repository of solid rich aterial, that could be applied to any number of settings. Let alone collectors of books.
Let's be honest here, lore isn't going to sell books anymore. Even the main proponent in this thread only says they would "likely" buy a lore book. This isn't an issue of the Hasbro overlords squeezing every cent out of the game, it's just basic common sense with regards to running a business. Prioritize the stuff your customers want, don't pour resources into something that even the strongest proponents only "might" buy.
It's already been said here that data shows FR lore applies to the minority of campaigns being played (I personally have never been into FR and honestly was always slightly annoyed at the lore presented in 5e because it labeled all other settings as homebrew), so at most tables the lore is thrown out anyway or at least mostly ignored. It's also noteworthy that the lore from a modern book is not only competing with all of their own books that contain lore, but also info from books, movies, and the massive data repository of the internet - with the latter being largely free. You could literally spend days just looking up and reading lore on the internet with only basic Googling skills.
If you want lore, it's out there. More than you could ever really want. I think what people actually want is a new book that draws them in like X book did when they were young or just getting into the game. Just as with other things where nostalgia is present, that experience is not something you will find again because part of it was where you were in your life and your mindset. A new book with even the richest lore is not going to bring back that feeling in its entirety.
I do think there could be a place for lore in a book about a specific campaign setting, if they ever do those again. But even that is only really needed for new settings. The only new content I need is updated mechanics. Lore does not expire with new editions like mechanics do, so I have decades of that to pull from when I need it.
Let’s be honest; we don’t have nearly enough information to be able to make an absolute judgement on what will or will not sell books, so it’s rather presumptuous and unproductive to the discussion to simply reject lore out of hand. And I said “likely” because this is a disposable income hobby; if such material came out tomorrow I’d jump on it. It’s not reservations about the quality, just the simple fact that the purchase is not an absolute unqualified certainty.
A quality book sells. Word gets out fast about books that are not high quality, and they don't sell. I know of any number of DM's that would buy a book that was a central repository of solid rich aterial, that could be applied to any number of settings. Let alone collectors of books.
I’m not clear on what your point is. Word of mouth is useful, but rarely impartial and truly representative of a large population. In a similar vein, while asserting that “quality” material will sell well is tautologically true- insofar as the measure of quality for an entertainment product is its acceptance and thus market performance- it’s of limited use as a projective data point on something as subjective as fictional writing. Saying “all lore is unlikely to sell well because certain books with lore did not” is an extrapolation, not positive proof.
Let's be honest here, lore isn't going to sell books anymore. Even the main proponent in this thread only says they would "likely" buy a lore book. This isn't an issue of the Hasbro overlords squeezing every cent out of the game, it's just basic common sense with regards to running a business. Prioritize the stuff your customers want, don't pour resources into something that even the strongest proponents only "might" buy.
It's already been said here that data shows FR lore applies to the minority of campaigns being played (I personally have never been into FR and honestly was always slightly annoyed at the lore presented in 5e because it labeled all other settings as homebrew), so at most tables the lore is thrown out anyway or at least mostly ignored. It's also noteworthy that the lore from a modern book is not only competing with all of their own books that contain lore, but also info from books, movies, and the massive data repository of the internet - with the latter being largely free. You could literally spend days just looking up and reading lore on the internet with only basic Googling skills.
If you want lore, it's out there. More than you could ever really want. I think what people actually want is a new book that draws them in like X book did when they were young or just getting into the game. Just as with other things where nostalgia is present, that experience is not something you will find again because part of it was where you were in your life and your mindset. A new book with even the richest lore is not going to bring back that feeling in its entirety.
I do think there could be a place for lore in a book about a specific campaign setting, if they ever do those again. But even that is only really needed for new settings. The only new content I need is updated mechanics. Lore does not expire with new editions like mechanics do, so I have decades of that to pull from when I need it.
Let’s be honest; we don’t have nearly enough information to be able to make an absolute judgement on what will or will not sell books, so it’s rather presumptuous and unproductive to the discussion to simply reject lore out of hand. And I said “likely” because this is a disposable income hobby; if such material came out tomorrow I’d jump on it. It’s not reservations about the quality, just the simple fact that the purchase is not an absolute unqualified certainty.
A quality book sells. Word gets out fast about books that are not high quality, and they don't sell. I know of any number of DM's that would buy a book that was a central repository of solid rich aterial, that could be applied to any number of settings. Let alone collectors of books.
I’m not clear on what your point is. Word of mouth is useful, but rarely impartial and truly representative of a large population. In a similar vein, while asserting that “quality” material will sell well is tautologically true- insofar as the measure of quality for an entertainment product is its acceptance and thus market performance- it’s of limited use as a projective data point on something as subjective as fictional writing. Saying “all lore is unlikely to sell well because certain books with lore did not” is an extrapolation, not positive proof.
I am not going to try to get past the jargon of "projective data points". But I do know that many DM's are crying out for books that are not deleted/changed for "reasons", that provide that lore in both intensive and extensive manner. The demon and devil cults alone in the real Mord's was a godsend for me, providing me new ways to think about cults, with a decent framework. And Volo's, its sections on Gnolls, among others, explaining their evil nature, I find brilliant. A few points based in reality:
1. Not all DM's have the time to search the web for snippets of lore, and then put it all together.
2. Not all DM's have the creativity to come up with the lore that used to be available. Having ready made material to either lift wholesale or use as inspiration is a hugely valuable resource.
What do you think an adventure module does? The same thing. It provides DM's a timesaver and a rich bed for creation. wotc has decided that resource is no longer marketable.
A quality book sells. Word gets out fast about books that are not high quality, and they don't sell. I know of any number of DM's that would buy a book that was a central repository of solid rich aterial, that could be applied to any number of settings. Let alone collectors of books.
So, not lore books, then, which are pretty much definitionally setting-specific.
Wizards has been very clear that they do find lore-heavy books to be marketable and their release patterns clearly show there is enough of a return on investment to keep publishing lore-dense books. The clear indication is that they’ll do slightly lighter lore in the core books, but continue to offer setting-specific books for those who want them.
Fizban’s, a lore-heavy book about dragons, was successful enough they decided to publish a second monster-type specific lorebook with Bigby’s.
Adventures-as-sources of lore have been successful enough that many modern adventures like Icewind Dale, Strixhaven, and Dragonlance have focused heavily on lore (arguably at times to the detriment of the adventure). Additionally there was Spelljammer and Planescape, which combined setting lore books with an adventure.
Wizards has mentioned before that books like Van Richten’s, which is basically a massive lore dump, have done pretty well, so they are unlikely to abandon those types of release.
There is not even any indication that the new core books will be devoid of lore—MMM still has plenty of lore in it for DMs who just want to use their core books, with each monster getting a paragraph or more of more setting-neutral information.
The only thing they have said is that the core books are going to be setting-neutral. Given how Wizards continues to pump out lore-heavy books and has introduced new mechanisms for publishing lore-heavy books (see the Fizban’s and Spelljammer models), anyone who thinks lore is being completely abandoned either has not been paying attention or is trying to push an agenda.
Yes, they are a toy and game maker, but their actual money is made in licensing and rights structures around that. Both of the folks who are generally deeply disliked (heads of hasbro as a whole and WotC) have said, time and time again that the goal is to monetize the IP inherent in D&D.
Lore is IP. Rules, not so much. There is 50 years of lore in the game. They own Bigby, Mordenkainen, Iggwilv/Tasha, and tons of other stuff from the earliest editions -- part of the reason you see these things being used is they ae asserting that ownership and building more depth to the IP. I don't know what the specific agreement with Greenwood is, but iit is pretty obvious they can do a hell of a lot with FR. They also own a ton of other things -- including the world that wizards built themselves for 4e, that folks seem to forget about.
That is all stuff they can license -- BG3 takes place in FR, and things like that in Eberron and Krynn and even a Domain of Dread (a concept of IP itself) are all part of what they can do.
So, to the point of what was just mentioned a bit ago, yes, they are going to do more books. And it doesn't actually matter if they sell well -- the goal of them is to improve the value of the IP itself, and that is what they want, because then that poor selling lore book can be used as the basis for a massive and popular video game or book series or tv show or figure line of toys.
This is corporate thinking and approach, because they don't see D&D as being of value in stuff they cannot control, cannot sell (rules aren't really of value). They want to have toy lines of barbarians and fighters and sorcerers and such -- but to get there they have to make those toy lines viable, and not just to the collector market. THis isn't an anime style sales structure, it is a US style one, where the market has to be there first.
So, yes, they are going to do more Lore stuff. And some of that stuff will probably end up being about "certain specific beings" -- likely 48 of them, lol, who will stand in as representatives and be able to become the toys they are wanting to see -- and trading cards, and characters in a tv show or movie and...
What I am curious about is the way they are going to do that. I bet it will be interesting.
Edit to Add: and let us not forget that Hasbro owns three video game companies:
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
You may be right, but they've published a bunch of pure setting books over the years, so they presumably sell.
Nah, that'd be a poor time if it were to contain the same content. Everyone who cared about that stuff already had it.
The thing is, they can publish a new FR book for the revised edition while mostly providing new (to 5e) material. The FR is huge, and because of the movie and BG3, it's probably of more interest to people than it has been in some time. The book they'd be replacing is the SCAG. If they cover wide-scale politics, they'll pull in some of the old stuff, just by explaining the cultures involved. Would there be thirty (or whatever) pages on the blood war? Probably not, but so what? Even for the FR, that's some deep-cut lore, and better belongs in a supplement on the outer planes. (which we may also get if Planescape sold well enough) But we'd get a bunch of the elf/draw/dwarf/etc. stuff, contextualized so that it's obviously "this is what the elves/drow/dwarves/whatevers of this part of the FR are like", rather than "This is what elves/drow/dwarves/whatevers are like".
If orcs are in the new main books, why would they need to include stat blocks? That's what core books are for.
If WotC doesn't make any, then support third party that do, via DM's Guild/DTRPG. You'll not only get the lore you want, but you'll signal to WotC that there's a market for that stuff and they should be prioritizing it in their own publication schedule - win/win.
Let's be honest here, lore isn't going to sell books anymore. Even the main proponent in this thread only says they would "likely" buy a lore book. This isn't an issue of the Hasbro overlords squeezing every cent out of the game, it's just basic common sense with regards to running a business. Prioritize the stuff your customers want, don't pour resources into something that even the strongest proponents only "might" buy.
It's already been said here that data shows FR lore applies to the minority of campaigns being played (I personally have never been into FR and honestly was always slightly annoyed at the lore presented in 5e because it labeled all other settings as homebrew), so at most tables the lore is thrown out anyway or at least mostly ignored. It's also noteworthy that the lore from a modern book is not only competing with all of their own books that contain lore, but also info from books, movies, and the massive data repository of the internet - with the latter being largely free. You could literally spend days just looking up and reading lore on the internet with only basic Googling skills.
If you want lore, it's out there. More than you could ever really want. I think what people actually want is a new book that draws them in like X book did when they were young or just getting into the game. Just as with other things where nostalgia is present, that experience is not something you will find again because part of it was where you were in your life and your mindset. A new book with even the richest lore is not going to bring back that feeling in its entirety.
I do think there could be a place for lore in a book about a specific campaign setting, if they ever do those again. But even that is only really needed for new settings. The only new content I need is updated mechanics. Lore does not expire with new editions like mechanics do, so I have decades of that to pull from when I need it.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Let’s be honest; we don’t have nearly enough information to be able to make an absolute judgement on what will or will not sell books, so it’s rather presumptuous and unproductive to the discussion to simply reject lore out of hand. And I said “likely” because this is a disposable income hobby; if such material came out tomorrow I’d jump on it. It’s not reservations about the quality, just the simple fact that the purchase is not an absolute unqualified certainty.
A quality book sells. Word gets out fast about books that are not high quality, and they don't sell. I know of any number of DM's that would buy a book that was a central repository of solid rich aterial, that could be applied to any number of settings. Let alone collectors of books.
I’m not clear on what your point is. Word of mouth is useful, but rarely impartial and truly representative of a large population. In a similar vein, while asserting that “quality” material will sell well is tautologically true- insofar as the measure of quality for an entertainment product is its acceptance and thus market performance- it’s of limited use as a projective data point on something as subjective as fictional writing. Saying “all lore is unlikely to sell well because certain books with lore did not” is an extrapolation, not positive proof.
I am not going to try to get past the jargon of "projective data points". But I do know that many DM's are crying out for books that are not deleted/changed for "reasons", that provide that lore in both intensive and extensive manner. The demon and devil cults alone in the real Mord's was a godsend for me, providing me new ways to think about cults, with a decent framework. And Volo's, its sections on Gnolls, among others, explaining their evil nature, I find brilliant. A few points based in reality:
1. Not all DM's have the time to search the web for snippets of lore, and then put it all together.
2. Not all DM's have the creativity to come up with the lore that used to be available. Having ready made material to either lift wholesale or use as inspiration is a hugely valuable resource.
What do you think an adventure module does? The same thing. It provides DM's a timesaver and a rich bed for creation. wotc has decided that resource is no longer marketable.
So, not lore books, then, which are pretty much definitionally setting-specific.
Fizban’s, a lore-heavy book about dragons, was successful enough they decided to publish a second monster-type specific lorebook with Bigby’s.
Adventures-as-sources of lore have been successful enough that many modern adventures like Icewind Dale, Strixhaven, and Dragonlance have focused heavily on lore (arguably at times to the detriment of the adventure). Additionally there was Spelljammer and Planescape, which combined setting lore books with an adventure.
Wizards has mentioned before that books like Van Richten’s, which is basically a massive lore dump, have done pretty well, so they are unlikely to abandon those types of release.
There is not even any indication that the new core books will be devoid of lore—MMM still has plenty of lore in it for DMs who just want to use their core books, with each monster getting a paragraph or more of more setting-neutral information.
The only thing they have said is that the core books are going to be setting-neutral. Given how Wizards continues to pump out lore-heavy books and has introduced new mechanisms for publishing lore-heavy books (see the Fizban’s and Spelljammer models), anyone who thinks lore is being completely abandoned either has not been paying attention or is trying to push an agenda.
So, in regards to Lore Books...
Hasbro is an IP company.
Yes, they are a toy and game maker, but their actual money is made in licensing and rights structures around that. Both of the folks who are generally deeply disliked (heads of hasbro as a whole and WotC) have said, time and time again that the goal is to monetize the IP inherent in D&D.
Lore is IP. Rules, not so much. There is 50 years of lore in the game. They own Bigby, Mordenkainen, Iggwilv/Tasha, and tons of other stuff from the earliest editions -- part of the reason you see these things being used is they ae asserting that ownership and building more depth to the IP. I don't know what the specific agreement with Greenwood is, but iit is pretty obvious they can do a hell of a lot with FR. They also own a ton of other things -- including the world that wizards built themselves for 4e, that folks seem to forget about.
That is all stuff they can license -- BG3 takes place in FR, and things like that in Eberron and Krynn and even a Domain of Dread (a concept of IP itself) are all part of what they can do.
So, to the point of what was just mentioned a bit ago, yes, they are going to do more books. And it doesn't actually matter if they sell well -- the goal of them is to improve the value of the IP itself, and that is what they want, because then that poor selling lore book can be used as the basis for a massive and popular video game or book series or tv show or figure line of toys.
This is corporate thinking and approach, because they don't see D&D as being of value in stuff they cannot control, cannot sell (rules aren't really of value). They want to have toy lines of barbarians and fighters and sorcerers and such -- but to get there they have to make those toy lines viable, and not just to the collector market. THis isn't an anime style sales structure, it is a US style one, where the market has to be there first.
So, yes, they are going to do more Lore stuff. And some of that stuff will probably end up being about "certain specific beings" -- likely 48 of them, lol, who will stand in as representatives and be able to become the toys they are wanting to see -- and trading cards, and characters in a tv show or movie and...
What I am curious about is the way they are going to do that. I bet it will be interesting.
Edit to Add: and let us not forget that Hasbro owns three video game companies:
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Some of us have not forgotten and keep the vigil.