From how i understand the rules, i can cast somatic spells while wielding a shield as a paladin and I can draw or stow my weapon as part of my action and movement (once per turn?) . So I can stow my weapon as part of the action i take when casting a somatic spell and redraw it as part of my movement or action on my next turn, so all the "You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands" part of warcaster does for me is allow me to use a bonus action spell like shield of faith after i make my first attack and make oppertunity attacks during the round i cast my somatic action spell, cus id have to cast shield of faith before drawing my weapon without warcaster and cant make opprtunity attacks with my weapon stowed right?
So, with Paladins, if your shield is your holy symbol, you can perform the somatic component if there is a material component. So, you can cast Shield of Faith without stowing your sword regardless.
However, to answer the spirit of your question (for in cases where there is no material component), then yes, to cast it, you'd have to put away your sword. That would mean that you can't use it for attacks of opportunity if it's still stowed at the end of your turn.
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This looks wrong why would the fact that my symbol covers the material mean i can use my shield hand for somatics?
Seems to me you missinterperting this rule. "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components." My shield hand isnt used for the material if the symbol on the shield, i just dont have to perform the material component if the symbol is visible. the important part is "A spellcaster must have a hand free" the fact my symbol on my shield dont magicly make it a free hand so id still have to stow my weapon to perform the somatic component of shield of faith cus my shield hand isnt a free hand. My shield hand isnt used for the material, i can just ignore it if my holy symbol is visible.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Thanks for the input and the link i now understand where this train of thought is comming from, i'd still value rules as written over a twitter post tho and rules as written specify i need a free hand.
This looks wrong why would the fact that my symbol covers the material mean i can use my shield hand for somatics?
Seems to me you missinterperting this rule. "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components." My shield hand isnt used for the material if the symbol on the shield, i just dont have to perform the material component if the symbol is visible. the important part is "A spellcaster must have a hand free" the fact my symbol on my shield dont magicly make it a free hand so id still have to stow my weapon to perform the somatic component of shield of faith cus my shield hand isnt a free hand. My shield hand isnt used for the material, i can just ignore it if my holy symbol is visible.
The point is that of the emblem focus is basically to make a shield into a divine focus, which qualifies as an M component for the spells; and yes, you do still need to "perform" the M component- that's what you're doing by holding the emblazoned shield in your hand. "Free" in the context of M components means "not occupied with something else", not "empty". Also, the ability to use the M component hand for both is dependent on there being an M component. And if you look at the Paladin spell list, you'll see that it's very clearly curated so that the vast majority of your spells won't run up against this issue, so clearly they do intend for it to come into play for the ones that fall outside the criteria.
RAW is that you just have to bear the shield (emphasis mine):
HolySymbol. A holysymbol is a representation of a god or pantheon. It might be an amulet depicting a symbol representing a deity, the same symbol carefully engraved or inlaid as an emblem on a shield, or a tiny box holding a fragment of a sacred relic. A cleric or paladin can use a holysymbol as a spellcasting focus, as described in chapter 10. To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield.
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Point out where it says i can perform somatics with the shield hand cus of the symbol, spoiler it is only stated on Twitter RAW dictates i cant perform somatic components with my shield hand cus its not a free hand and the holy symbols text does not include the word somatic anywhere.
You quoted the rules where you can use the hand with the focus to perform the somatic component.
I've quoted the rules where it says you can use your shield as a focus.
Therefore the hand holding the shield (IE focus) can perform the somatic component.
I've also shown you where the lead designer says that the intent is that you can, as a Paladin, perform the somatic component with the shield on one hand and a weapon in the other without stowing the weapon.
I'm not sure what else there is to say. It's all been quoted to you. The RAW is right there. You need one hand to access the focus (it is the one holding the shield), the same hand can also perform the somatic component.
Play as you want. We can only explain what the rules say.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
it also specifies it needs to be a free hand and the shield isnt. The shield does not become my holy symbol. the holy symbol which is required to be visible to be used is attatched to the shiel. I am not wielding the symbol in my hand, it is simply displayed on the shield, the same way as it is while fastened to my armor or worn arround my neck.
Do not belittle me and claim you explaining rules to me when you fail to grasp the wording of said rules.
No it doesn't say it has to be a free hand - you have to have a hand free to hold the focus, which is your shield:
A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus
There's nothing else to say on the matter at this point. If you want to play that you have to stow a weapon before casting the spell, that's up to to you.
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I would also point out that most of the time the Paladin only casts spells out of combat. Usually they use their spell slots for smiting. In addition none of the Paladin only spells are have material components. Most are Verbal only. As for the spells they cast that other people can cast, they typically get them much later and are therefore unlikely to use them. Banishment for example is a great 4th level spell that Wizards get at 7th level and Paladins get at 13th.
As a practical manner, Paladins do not normally need to worry about this issue.
Paladins are special and can use their shield emblazoned with the holy symbol to cast many spells, but a few which are not applicable like Cure Wounds or Spirit Shroud do exist. Many DMs simply do not bother with this because while you are on your own turn you can technically just drop your weapon, cast the spell, and pick it up again as your object interaction. One thing would matter was if you were multiclass or had access to other spells or if you need your reaction (say Counterspell) and that would make Warcaster more enticing on a Paladin. Purely for somatic casting, Warcaster on a Paladin is not as useful compared to other classes.
none of the Paladin only spells are have material components.
I don't know how many, but at least one does - Shield of Faith - which is what sparked the discussion.
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specific rules trump general rules, the symbol makes it so i dont need a free hand for m, as specified in its discription. "To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield." "Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus" The spell casting focus allows me to perform m components without interaction while it is visible, it does not make my shield a holysymbol or a free hand it just allows me to perform m components without a free hand, i still need a free hand to perform s, the symbol just needs to be visible and it takes care of m, it has no ties to my s component unless is chose to grasp my holy symbol which i do not do when i chose to bear the symbol on the shield, it is simply worn/carried on my shield. "Must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield." if bearing it on the shield is holding it in hand why are they sepperated? To anyone with a grasp of english and rule creation the BEAR IT ON A SHIELD is there to specify that fastening the symbol to your shield does not make it a holy symbol, so people dont pull shit like "My weapon or shield is my holy symbol" and get a feature of war caster for free.
THIS GUY! This guy has experiece and knows how to read! wouldnt dropping, stowing, drawing and picking up the weapon all count as an object interaction tho? So how am i able to drop and pick it up on the same turn?
If i can really do that i get why people ignore the rule, but i dont think you can, cus then whats the point of this portion of war caster? "You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands."
specific rules trump general rules, the symbol makes it so i dont need a free hand for m, as specified in its discription. "To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield." "Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus" The spell casting focus allows me to perform m components without interaction while it is visible, it does not make my shield a holysymbol or a free hand it just allows me to perform m components without a free hand, i still need a free hand to perform s, the symbol just needs to be visible and it takes care of m, it has no ties to my s component unless is chose to grasp my holy symbol which i do not do when i chose to bear the symbol on the shield, it is simply worn/carried on my shield. "Must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield." if bearing it on the shield is holding it in hand why are they sepperated? To anyone with a grasp of english and rule creation the BEAR IT ON A SHIELD is there to specify that fastening the symbol to your shield does not make it a holy symbol, so people dont pull shit like "My weapon or shield is my holy symbol" and get a feature of war caster for free.
sage adcive isnt RAW its advice and it contradicts itself a lot. According to sage advice invisible creatures are still functionally invisible against creatures capable of seeing em with true sight.
sage adcive isnt RAW its advice and it contradicts itself a lot. According to sage advice invisible creatures are still functionally invisible against creatures capable of seeing em with true sight.
Official Rulings
Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium.
It is by definition RAW because the designers say it is.
Edit: In case you do not understand what I mean. The designers are WRITING what the RULES are here, and declared that these rules are official. These are therefore RULES AS WRITTEN.
From how i understand the rules, i can cast somatic spells while wielding a shield as a paladin and I can draw or stow my weapon as part of my action and movement (once per turn?)
.
So I can stow my weapon as part of the action i take when casting a somatic spell and redraw it as part of my movement or action on my next turn, so all the "You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands" part of warcaster does for me is allow me to use a bonus action spell like shield of faith after i make my first attack and make oppertunity attacks during the round i cast my somatic action spell, cus id have to cast shield of faith before drawing my weapon without warcaster and cant make opprtunity attacks with my weapon stowed right?
So, with Paladins, if your shield is your holy symbol, you can perform the somatic component if there is a material component. So, you can cast Shield of Faith without stowing your sword regardless.
However, to answer the spirit of your question (for in cases where there is no material component), then yes, to cast it, you'd have to put away your sword. That would mean that you can't use it for attacks of opportunity if it's still stowed at the end of your turn.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This looks wrong why would the fact that my symbol covers the material mean i can use my shield hand for somatics?
Seems to me you missinterperting this rule.
"A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components -- or to hold a spellcasting focus -- but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
My shield hand isnt used for the material if the symbol on the shield, i just dont have to perform the material component if the symbol is visible. the important part is "A spellcaster must have a hand free" the fact my symbol on my shield dont magicly make it a free hand so id still have to stow my weapon to perform the somatic component of shield of faith cus my shield hand isnt a free hand. My shield hand isnt used for the material, i can just ignore it if my holy symbol is visible.
I mean, the designer of the game literally disagrees with you, but I've learnt that there's little point arguing at this point in a discussion, so play as you like.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Thanks for the input and the link i now understand where this train of thought is comming from, i'd still value rules as written over a twitter post tho and rules as written specify i need a free hand.
The point is that of the emblem focus is basically to make a shield into a divine focus, which qualifies as an M component for the spells; and yes, you do still need to "perform" the M component- that's what you're doing by holding the emblazoned shield in your hand. "Free" in the context of M components means "not occupied with something else", not "empty". Also, the ability to use the M component hand for both is dependent on there being an M component. And if you look at the Paladin spell list, you'll see that it's very clearly curated so that the vast majority of your spells won't run up against this issue, so clearly they do intend for it to come into play for the ones that fall outside the criteria.
RAW is that you just have to bear the shield (emphasis mine):
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Point out where it says i can perform somatics with the shield hand cus of the symbol, spoiler it is only stated on Twitter RAW dictates i cant perform somatic components with my shield hand cus its not a free hand and the holy symbols text does not include the word somatic anywhere.
You quoted the rules where you can use the hand with the focus to perform the somatic component.
I've quoted the rules where it says you can use your shield as a focus.
Therefore the hand holding the shield (IE focus) can perform the somatic component.
I've also shown you where the lead designer says that the intent is that you can, as a Paladin, perform the somatic component with the shield on one hand and a weapon in the other without stowing the weapon.
I'm not sure what else there is to say. It's all been quoted to you. The RAW is right there. You need one hand to access the focus (it is the one holding the shield), the same hand can also perform the somatic component.
Play as you want. We can only explain what the rules say.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
it also specifies it needs to be a free hand and the shield isnt.
The shield does not become my holy symbol.
the holy symbol which is required to be visible to be used is attatched to the shiel.
I am not wielding the symbol in my hand, it is simply displayed on the shield, the same way as it is while fastened to my armor or worn arround my neck.
Do not belittle me and claim you explaining rules to me when you fail to grasp the wording of said rules.
No it doesn't say it has to be a free hand - you have to have a hand free to hold the focus, which is your shield:
There's nothing else to say on the matter at this point. If you want to play that you have to stow a weapon before casting the spell, that's up to to you.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I would also point out that most of the time the Paladin only casts spells out of combat. Usually they use their spell slots for smiting. In addition none of the Paladin only spells are have material components. Most are Verbal only. As for the spells they cast that other people can cast, they typically get them much later and are therefore unlikely to use them. Banishment for example is a great 4th level spell that Wizards get at 7th level and Paladins get at 13th.
As a practical manner, Paladins do not normally need to worry about this issue.
Paladins are special and can use their shield emblazoned with the holy symbol to cast many spells, but a few which are not applicable like Cure Wounds or Spirit Shroud do exist. Many DMs simply do not bother with this because while you are on your own turn you can technically just drop your weapon, cast the spell, and pick it up again as your object interaction. One thing would matter was if you were multiclass or had access to other spells or if you need your reaction (say Counterspell) and that would make Warcaster more enticing on a Paladin. Purely for somatic casting, Warcaster on a Paladin is not as useful compared to other classes.
I don't know how many, but at least one does - Shield of Faith - which is what sparked the discussion.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
specific rules trump general rules, the symbol makes it so i dont need a free hand for m, as specified in its discription. "To use the symbol in this way, the caster must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield."
"Casting some spells requires particular objects, specified in parentheses in the component entry. A character can use a component pouch or a spellcasting focus"
The spell casting focus allows me to perform m components without interaction while it is visible, it does not make my shield a holysymbol or a free hand it just allows me to perform m components without a free hand, i still need a free hand to perform s, the symbol just needs to be visible and it takes care of m, it has no ties to my s component unless is chose to grasp my holy symbol which i do not do when i chose to bear the symbol on the shield, it is simply worn/carried on my shield.
"Must hold it in hand, wear it visibly, or bear it on a shield." if bearing it on the shield is holding it in hand why are they sepperated? To anyone with a grasp of english and rule creation the BEAR IT ON A SHIELD is there to specify that fastening the symbol to your shield does not make it a holy symbol, so people dont pull shit like "My weapon or shield is my holy symbol" and get a feature of war caster for free.
there are plenty, theres 4 bonus action spells on the pala spell list that require m and many more full action spells that requires m
THIS GUY!
This guy has experiece and knows how to read!
wouldnt dropping, stowing, drawing and picking up the weapon all count as an object interaction tho? So how am i able to drop and pick it up on the same turn?
If i can really do that i get why people ignore the rule, but i dont think you can, cus then whats the point of this portion of war caster?
"You can perform the somatic components of spells even when you have weapons or a shield in one or both hands."
You are being obtuse. There is literally OFFICIAL sage advice that explains developer intent here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#SA165 .
sage adcive isnt RAW its advice and it contradicts itself a lot. According to sage advice invisible creatures are still functionally invisible against creatures capable of seeing em with true sight.
Official Rulings
Official rulings on how to interpret rules are made here in the Sage Advice Compendium.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#OfficialRulings
It is by definition RAW because the designers say it is.
Edit: In case you do not understand what I mean. The designers are WRITING what the RULES are here, and declared that these rules are official. These are therefore RULES AS WRITTEN.