As for the lore stuff, I prefer they excise the lore in setting agnostic books. I do not really want that fluff in the DMG, PHB, and MM. It is not helpful for homebrew campaigns, mixing lore and mechanics contributes to the disorganized information mess, and I do not want to lug around extra pages I do not need in case I fancy carrying the physical book with me.
I do want fat stacks of lore, but I want it to be confined to setting books and campaign books, so books like SCAG and COS. I also want fat stacks of lore that is organized and easily searchable. I do not want to dig through the DMG to find information on the planes when that information should have been in P:AITM. How information is distributed and organized right now is absolutely mind boggling stupid. I am a GM, I buy everything, and I use the digital books, so the disorganization is just a minor convenience to me. However, imagine a new player getting into D&D and they prefer to do things pen and paper, and they are reading about Planescape but want more information on the planes. Who the hell would think that it is reasonable to expect a new player to buy and crank open the DMG to find more of that info?
For themed books like FTOD and anthology books like CM, I prefer they use less lore so it is easier to slot throw them into any campaign, but the amount of lore they currently have is fine.
I think they do need some form of baseline lore in the PHB, otherwise you’re telling a new DM they either need to buy more material or build a whole setting from scratch. Doesn’t need to be the size of MToF entries, but some prompts on potential cultures and characteristics will probably help people new to the game hit the ground running. And, as I’ve said in other threads, I don’t hate the format of Monsters of the Multiverse in and of itself, the issue is that when it came out what amounted to two setting books of additional lore went off the market. If that material had been recompiled into another book, it would have been a non-issue, but it wasn’t. This is why I don’t like the current push for “setting agnostic”; it seems to be coming at the expense of lore rather than just at a separation.
if one specifically said the Goliath communities that live in the high tundra of the Craggy Mountains have the element I described as a prevalent component of their culture, that’s just considering how environment will influence culture, not the “genetic determinism” that sometimes gets brought up as the reason in-depth racial lore is a bad thing.
Yes, but that's information that there's just no reason to include outside of a setting book.
I think they do need some form of baseline lore in the PHB, otherwise you’re telling a new DM they either need to buy more material or build a whole setting from scratch.
I think they do need some form of baseline lore in the PHB, otherwise you’re telling a new DM they either need to buy more material or build a whole setting from scratch.
No, they need a sample setting in the DMG.
That’s largely “six of one, half dozen of the other”, and providing some prompts for players designing their first character who want them to feel like an elf or dwarf instead of just themselves with pointy ears or a bushy beard won’t hurt anything. The PHB provides tools for character creation, and that’s all that prompts are.
That’s largely “six of one, half dozen of the other”, and providing some prompts for players designing their first character who want them to feel like an elf or dwarf instead of just themselves with pointy ears or a bushy beard won’t hurt anything.
It will make it more difficult to run a game in which the stereotypes are not true.
In practice it doesn't actually matter very much because most people don't read the wall of text describing the species in the PHB to start with.
Every editions of D&D ended up publishing products of various quality or interest over their final years of lifespan and 5E is 10 years old so i'm not surprised of what we see.
I think WoTC makes the right decision for their IP and a revision of the core rules is a good way to update a popular system without killing it. I like what i saw of OneD&D thus far and believe it will be successful.
That’s largely “six of one, half dozen of the other”, and providing some prompts for players designing their first character who want them to feel like an elf or dwarf instead of just themselves with pointy ears or a bushy beard won’t hurt anything.
It will make it more difficult to run a game in which the stereotypes are not true.
In practice it doesn't actually matter very much because most people don't read the wall of text describing the species in the PHB to start with.
You realize you’re kinda contradicting yourself here, right. If it won’t matter, it shouldn’t make things any harder on people if it’s included.
You realize you’re kinda contradicting yourself here, right. If it won’t matter, it shouldn’t make things any harder on people if it’s included.
For the majority of people it doesn't matter. For the minority of people where it does matter, it's probably more harmful than helpful, because it's just giving them wrong information. The culture of elves, or dwarves, or whatever, is whatever the DM (or the setting, if published), says it is, or if the DM doesn't care, it's whatever the player thinks is cool and can get the DM to buy in on.
You realize you’re kinda contradicting yourself here, right. If it won’t matter, it shouldn’t make things any harder on people if it’s included.
For the majority of people it doesn't matter. For the minority of people where it does matter, it's probably more harmful than helpful, because it's just giving them wrong information. The culture of elves, or dwarves, or whatever, is whatever the DM (or the setting, if published), says it is, or if the DM doesn't care, it's whatever the player thinks is cool and can get the DM to buy in on.
And there’s no chance of even an equally small segment who will find it useful, based on your extensive and objective analysis of the population?
And there’s no chance of even an equally small segment who will find it useful, based on your extensive and objective analysis of the population?
The 'small segment' is people who care at all; by definition people who don't care won't find it useful. An actually useful segment would be to delete all the page space wasted on those wall-o-texts and have a segment on "how to write a good backstory", including cultural features that might be interesting to RP or lead to plots, along with some cautions about stuff that can cause problems (for example, you can include the Kender as a worked example of "this will probably make the other players want to kill you, don't create a culture like this").
Frankly, a lot of the issues folks have here could be accomplished through D&D Beyond’s articles… if the articles were in any way organized and useful to read.
Consider earlier editions of D&D - a lot of the best lore did not come from the adventures or sourcebooks, but from Dragon or Dungeon magazine. These supplements were often lore-heavy, mechanically light, providing plenty of information without taking up space in an actual book.
Beyond could fill that role very easily—it already is increasingly running “here is how to run aspects of the game” articles; lore dumps would not be that much harder—especially since a lot of it already has been written and could just be repackaged into a modern article form.
But, for that to be helpful as a tool, Beyond would need to get a whole lot better in its search tools and organization. The site is a bit of a mess, vastly outclassed in a lot of regards by the 4e digital tools.
This will likely not be well received but my opinion is that the real struggle WoTC needs to overcome is how to successfully monetize D&D going forward. I wasn’t here for 2e but neither were the endless free online resources. You want maps? They’re free just Google it. You want adventures or even just encounters and one shots (even including official WoTC content)? It’s free if you Google it and are willing to download a file from someone’s drop box account. Yes, it’s piracy and yes it’s illegal but it can also be found in about 2 minutes searching online which is a huge threat to WoTC and might make them think twice about how much money they want to pour in.. Don’t forget we’re only a few years out from WoTC beating back shareholders that wanted to see D&D spun off and sold. They’re still on rocky footing and most of their tools to market subscriptions are in alpha or beta with not a tremendous amount of progress visible for how long some have been in development. I think the real problem is that D&D is under monetized and there isn’t a great way to drive more monetization. That’s going to make it harder for the D&D folks making the budget pitches to get more resources from WoTC.
if one specifically said the Goliath communities that live in the high tundra of the Craggy Mountains have the element I described as a prevalent component of their culture, that’s just considering how environment will influence culture, not the “genetic determinism” that sometimes gets brought up as the reason in-depth racial lore is a bad thing.
Yes, but that's information that there's just no reason to include outside of a setting book.
Exactly. Craggy Mountain Goliath lore belongs in whichever setting contains the Craggy Mountains, not in a book like MotM or even the PHB.
You realize you’re kinda contradicting yourself here, right. If it won’t matter, it shouldn’t make things any harder on people if it’s included.
Book space isn't free, especially the space in the setting-agnostic books. Spending that space on lore that isn't actually setting-agnostic, nor even region-agnostic within a specific setting, is counterproductive.
I guess I just don't see the point in doom-and-glooming until they make some kind of statement of intent that we're not getting more setting books. Spelljammer and Planescape are multiversal settings by their very nature, so those are more 'agnostic; than most, but with those out of the way we've got plenty of reason for them to revisit the more specific things like FR. And oh look, FR just had a wildly successful video game adaptation that was absolutely filled to the brim with setting-specific lore. The smart thing for them to do after the new core has landed would be to put out a new Forgotten Realm's setting book, and then work on their next video game adaptation in 2026, which will also be full of lore.
I'm not saying you have to buy a video game, I'm saying you have to be patient for more books. Whether you follow that advice or thrash and froth is up to you.
I don't think we're in danger of losing lore altogether, I just think it will better serve to help new players if they're given some roleplay prompts and lore to go with their character creation options rather than telling them to figure everything out themselves or try to parse through extensive and possibly contradictory wikis and forums on the subject. Plus, in terms of page space, they're cutting out backgrounds as they were in 2014, why not earmark some of that space for other roleplay material?
Edit: And also they need to make some new FR lore book to reconsolidate the material on the various races from VGtM and MToF that stopped being available for purchase here with MotM. There's a lot of useful materials on histories and pantheons that can be referenced and tinkered with, even if you don't want to do a full on FR campaign. Fiends should maybe be reconsolidated into another book with Celestials, flesh the Celestials out a bit more.
I agree with you that roleplay prompts are a good thing - and my copy of Dragonlance is full of them. Information on the gods, the factions, the core races, the history of the world, it's all there. And yes, they should definitely publish an update to Forgotten Realms, preferably one that includes all the new canon introduced in BG3.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters. A few paragraphs of simple lore in the PHB is unlikely to displace any other content you would find particularly crucial, especially with all the background tables being pulled, and make it much more accessible for people who want to pick up the core 3 and try out the game. There's a reason it's called role-playing, and the core books should provide a simple but solid foundation for that, not just tell them to figure it out for themselves or buy more products.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.
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As for the lore stuff, I prefer they excise the lore in setting agnostic books. I do not really want that fluff in the DMG, PHB, and MM. It is not helpful for homebrew campaigns, mixing lore and mechanics contributes to the disorganized information mess, and I do not want to lug around extra pages I do not need in case I fancy carrying the physical book with me.
I do want fat stacks of lore, but I want it to be confined to setting books and campaign books, so books like SCAG and COS. I also want fat stacks of lore that is organized and easily searchable. I do not want to dig through the DMG to find information on the planes when that information should have been in P:AITM. How information is distributed and organized right now is absolutely mind boggling stupid. I am a GM, I buy everything, and I use the digital books, so the disorganization is just a minor convenience to me. However, imagine a new player getting into D&D and they prefer to do things pen and paper, and they are reading about Planescape but want more information on the planes. Who the hell would think that it is reasonable to expect a new player to buy and crank open the DMG to find more of that info?
For themed books like FTOD and anthology books like CM, I prefer they use less lore so it is easier to slot throw them into any campaign, but the amount of lore they currently have is fine.
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I think they do need some form of baseline lore in the PHB, otherwise you’re telling a new DM they either need to buy more material or build a whole setting from scratch. Doesn’t need to be the size of MToF entries, but some prompts on potential cultures and characteristics will probably help people new to the game hit the ground running. And, as I’ve said in other threads, I don’t hate the format of Monsters of the Multiverse in and of itself, the issue is that when it came out what amounted to two setting books of additional lore went off the market. If that material had been recompiled into another book, it would have been a non-issue, but it wasn’t. This is why I don’t like the current push for “setting agnostic”; it seems to be coming at the expense of lore rather than just at a separation.
Yes, but that's information that there's just no reason to include outside of a setting book.
No, they need a sample setting in the DMG.
That’s largely “six of one, half dozen of the other”, and providing some prompts for players designing their first character who want them to feel like an elf or dwarf instead of just themselves with pointy ears or a bushy beard won’t hurt anything. The PHB provides tools for character creation, and that’s all that prompts are.
It will make it more difficult to run a game in which the stereotypes are not true.
In practice it doesn't actually matter very much because most people don't read the wall of text describing the species in the PHB to start with.
Every editions of D&D ended up publishing products of various quality or interest over their final years of lifespan and 5E is 10 years old so i'm not surprised of what we see.
I think WoTC makes the right decision for their IP and a revision of the core rules is a good way to update a popular system without killing it. I like what i saw of OneD&D thus far and believe it will be successful.
You realize you’re kinda contradicting yourself here, right. If it won’t matter, it shouldn’t make things any harder on people if it’s included.
For the majority of people it doesn't matter. For the minority of people where it does matter, it's probably more harmful than helpful, because it's just giving them wrong information. The culture of elves, or dwarves, or whatever, is whatever the DM (or the setting, if published), says it is, or if the DM doesn't care, it's whatever the player thinks is cool and can get the DM to buy in on.
And there’s no chance of even an equally small segment who will find it useful, based on your extensive and objective analysis of the population?
The 'small segment' is people who care at all; by definition people who don't care won't find it useful. An actually useful segment would be to delete all the page space wasted on those wall-o-texts and have a segment on "how to write a good backstory", including cultural features that might be interesting to RP or lead to plots, along with some cautions about stuff that can cause problems (for example, you can include the Kender as a worked example of "this will probably make the other players want to kill you, don't create a culture like this").
Frankly, a lot of the issues folks have here could be accomplished through D&D Beyond’s articles… if the articles were in any way organized and useful to read.
Consider earlier editions of D&D - a lot of the best lore did not come from the adventures or sourcebooks, but from Dragon or Dungeon magazine. These supplements were often lore-heavy, mechanically light, providing plenty of information without taking up space in an actual book.
Beyond could fill that role very easily—it already is increasingly running “here is how to run aspects of the game” articles; lore dumps would not be that much harder—especially since a lot of it already has been written and could just be repackaged into a modern article form.
But, for that to be helpful as a tool, Beyond would need to get a whole lot better in its search tools and organization. The site is a bit of a mess, vastly outclassed in a lot of regards by the 4e digital tools.
This will likely not be well received but my opinion is that the real struggle WoTC needs to overcome is how to successfully monetize D&D going forward. I wasn’t here for 2e but neither were the endless free online resources. You want maps? They’re free just Google it. You want adventures or even just encounters and one shots (even including official WoTC content)? It’s free if you Google it and are willing to download a file from someone’s drop box account. Yes, it’s piracy and yes it’s illegal but it can also be found in about 2 minutes searching online which is a huge threat to WoTC and might make them think twice about how much money they want to pour in.. Don’t forget we’re only a few years out from WoTC beating back shareholders that wanted to see D&D spun off and sold. They’re still on rocky footing and most of their tools to market subscriptions are in alpha or beta with not a tremendous amount of progress visible for how long some have been in development. I think the real problem is that D&D is under monetized and there isn’t a great way to drive more monetization. That’s going to make it harder for the D&D folks making the budget pitches to get more resources from WoTC.
Book space isn't free, especially the space in the setting-agnostic books. Spending that space on lore that isn't actually setting-agnostic, nor even region-agnostic within a specific setting, is counterproductive.
I guess I just don't see the point in doom-and-glooming until they make some kind of statement of intent that we're not getting more setting books. Spelljammer and Planescape are multiversal settings by their very nature, so those are more 'agnostic; than most, but with those out of the way we've got plenty of reason for them to revisit the more specific things like FR. And oh look, FR just had a wildly successful video game adaptation that was absolutely filled to the brim with setting-specific lore. The smart thing for them to do after the new core has landed would be to put out a new Forgotten Realm's setting book, and then work on their next video game adaptation in 2026, which will also be full of lore.
I'm not saying you have to buy a video game, I'm saying you have to be patient for more books. Whether you follow that advice or thrash and froth is up to you.
I don't think we're in danger of losing lore altogether, I just think it will better serve to help new players if they're given some roleplay prompts and lore to go with their character creation options rather than telling them to figure everything out themselves or try to parse through extensive and possibly contradictory wikis and forums on the subject. Plus, in terms of page space, they're cutting out backgrounds as they were in 2014, why not earmark some of that space for other roleplay material?
Edit: And also they need to make some new FR lore book to reconsolidate the material on the various races from VGtM and MToF that stopped being available for purchase here with MotM. There's a lot of useful materials on histories and pantheons that can be referenced and tinkered with, even if you don't want to do a full on FR campaign. Fiends should maybe be reconsolidated into another book with Celestials, flesh the Celestials out a bit more.
I agree with you that roleplay prompts are a good thing - and my copy of Dragonlance is full of them. Information on the gods, the factions, the core races, the history of the world, it's all there. And yes, they should definitely publish an update to Forgotten Realms, preferably one that includes all the new canon introduced in BG3.
And the thing about your copy of Dragonlance is that's an extra $30+ bucks new to get at the material, which again is going to be a bit off-putting for a group that's just starting to dip a toe in the waters. A few paragraphs of simple lore in the PHB is unlikely to displace any other content you would find particularly crucial, especially with all the background tables being pulled, and make it much more accessible for people who want to pick up the core 3 and try out the game. There's a reason it's called role-playing, and the core books should provide a simple but solid foundation for that, not just tell them to figure it out for themselves or buy more products.
If you want to dip your toes in the water... adventure books include the amount of background you need to run the adventure. If you want to get a new player interested in a PC species, the main things you need are (a) a description of the cool things you can do, and (b) a cool picture.
Except you still need to buy the core books on top of that, which is my point. The core books should provide enough material to build a character from scratch and give you some direction on playing into your major character creation points without needing an additional $40 purchase.