I never said that subclasses are a big selling point, I said that the reason why they're included is to help sell the book. The difference is subtle, but important for the discussion. They're not adding subclasses to DM books out of the goodness of their hearts.
I think they're adding them because they have ideas that are thematically fitting. They seem to have no qualms about not having them. The regular churn of having game designers on staff is going to create player stuff, and you have to put it somewhere.
I'm less convinced that subclasses in particular are a big selling point. Player options in general have some appeal, but I don't think players are a significant market for these books. GMs who want to run in a setting, or with a theme, are the target audience.
I don't have proper market data handy, but I've repeatedly heard that "more player crunch options" is the single biggest seller for the books. (Which is why things like the PHB and Xanathar's and Tasha's sell so well.)
Yeah; those have enough player stuff that players might buy them in numbers.
I'm not convinced the usual "some of: a subclass or two, a new species, a couple of backgrounds, a few feats" really move the needle. Could I be incorrectly extrapolating from an overly-small, atypical sample (AKA me)? Yes.
I've also heard that it's policy that they don't sell new options for things that depend on more than the core books...e.g. since Artificer isn't in the PHB, they don't sell Artificer subclasses in books that don't reprint all of Artificer. Which is, I think, the percieved issue with the class not being in the core.
Lots of people say this, but I've never seen a citation that it's actually policy, and the sample size for the only non-core class we have is just too small to be useful.
them having their hands full is fine but i would have rather waited and the Artificer to be officially added. dont quote me on this but didnt they say they were done with editions? its just 5e from now on and just stuff added on? (5.5e or whatever you wanna call it) so unless they make another PHB or just make 6E Artificer mains are the outcasts again. for me the artificer was the whole reason i got into DnD and is what i main in most campaigns.
Even if that's still the plan, done with editions <> done with books. This is the first book of the revision, keep calm and give them time.
it wouldnt have been a problem to add to the book for the people who like artificer to have new stuff
You don't know if this is true. We know they were already running into space issues since they had to scrap their original plan to put the moon druid forms in the PHB.
That's actually decently popular. There is a quite large bias in character creation based on where a subclass is published (presumably based on who owns a book and how long they've had it, subclasses in the basic rulers are consistently around 3x as common as anything else) so a similar pattern would be expected for classes. Give the artificer a similar factor of 3 and it's middle of the pack, somewhere close to bard and ranger.
1) It's not actually as consistent as you think - the basic Barbarian is Berserker but per the most recent subclass data Totem Warrior beat it. Similarly, the Basic Druid is Land but Moon Druid beat it, and the basic Paladin is Devotion but Vengeance beat it.
2) Remember the scale they use on that graph is wonky. Even if you tripled Artificer, that would put it closer to Druid than Ranger, still on the lower end rather than middle of the pack. And there's good reason to think a factor of three is overstating the paywall effect (see above).
1) It's not actually as consistent as you think - the basic Barbarian is Berserker but per the most recent subclass data Totem Warrior beat it. Similarly, the Basic Druid is Land but Moon Druid beat it, and the basic Paladin is Devotion but Vengeance beat it.
I did know that moon druid was an exception, not the others. In general exceptions seem to come when the basic rules version is really bad.
"Artificer not dead you can still play it but if it ever gets a release in a new 5.5 book it'll likely never get a subclass outside what book it was released in cuz making subclasses for Artificer is not financially stable cuz it's not a core class"
Which... is literally my entire point? It can't get subclasses cuz Wizard bored with it and unless you buy on dms guild 3rd party publishes like Ghostfire can't make new subclasses cuz I heard that unless the guy who wrote Ebberon owns them says ok you can't make em.
them having their hands full is fine but i would have rather waited and the Artificer to be officially added. dont quote me on this but didnt they say they were done with editions? its just 5e from now on and just stuff added on? (5.5e or whatever you wanna call it) so unless they make another PHB or just make 6E Artificer mains are the outcasts again. for me the artificer was the whole reason i got into DnD and is what i main in most campaigns.
Even if that's still the plan, done with editions <> done with books. This is the first book of the revision, keep calm and give them time.
it wouldnt have been a problem to add to the book for the people who like artificer to have new stuff
You don't know if this is true. We know they were already running into space issues since they had to scrap their original plan to put the moon druid forms in the PHB.
That's actually decently popular. There is a quite large bias in character creation based on where a subclass is published (presumably based on who owns a book and how long they've had it, subclasses in the basic rulers are consistently around 3x as common as anything else) so a similar pattern would be expected for classes. Give the artificer a similar factor of 3 and it's middle of the pack, somewhere close to bard and ranger.
1) It's not actually as consistent as you think - the basic Barbarian is Berserker but per the most recent subclass data Totem Warrior beat it. Similarly, the Basic Druid is Land but Moon Druid beat it, and the basic Paladin is Devotion but Vengeance beat it.
2) Remember the scale they use on that graph is wonky. Even if you tripled Artificer, that would put it closer to Druid than Ranger, still on the lower end rather than middle of the pack. And there's good reason to think a factor of three is overstating the paywall effect (see above).
Considering the artificer came out 5 to 6 years after the PHB and was never given anything else besides one book to work with i think those numbers are great tbh
"Artificer not dead you can still play it but if it ever gets a release in a new 5.5 book it'll likely never get a subclass outside what book it was released in cuz making subclasses for Artificer is not financially stable cuz it's not a core class"
Which... is literally my entire point? It can't get subclasses cuz Wizard bored with it and unless you buy on dms guild 3rd party publishes like Ghostfire can't make new subclasses cuz I heard that unless the guy who wrote Ebberon owns them says ok you can't make em.
Artificer was published at a time when WotC was very gun-shy about making new material for 5e. I highly, highly doubt we'll have to wait 5 years for it a second time, and another 1-2 for its first subclass and new spells. Not making it to core doesn't mean all is lost.
"Artificer not dead you can still play it but if it ever gets a release in a new 5.5 book it'll likely never get a subclass outside what book it was released in cuz making subclasses for Artificer is not financially stable cuz it's not a core class"
Which... is literally my entire point? It can't get subclasses cuz Wizard bored with it and unless you buy on dms guild 3rd party publishes like Ghostfire can't make new subclasses cuz I heard that unless the guy who wrote Ebberon owns them says ok you can't make em.
Artificer was published at a time when WotC was very gun-shy about making new material for 5e. I highly, highly doubt we'll have to wait 5 years for it a second time, and another 1-2 for its first subclass and new spells. Not making it to core doesn't mean all is lost.
I know we are getting the artificer but theres just a few things i hate about it not being in the core book 1. feels like they are holding it out just so others (like me) will be forced to buy another book if they want to play the 2024 artificer 2. unless they let up on the rule that you cant make stuff for things not in the core book then once artificer comes out thats it thats all it gets unless it gets reprinted again (like with eberron to tashas) 3. why exclude a whole group of people for what they like?
personally (maybe just me being dramatic) but it feels like WOTC doesnt consider us to be part of the core of dnd and just side content when all other TTRPGs have some type of artificers (the ones similar to DnD)
The Artificer isn't dead and I big reason it wasn't updated and put in the 2024 version of the PHB is it was updated in Tashas and wasn't in the 2014 PHB and while if it was my choice it would be in the new PHB. As others have stated it also isn't in the SRD so you can't get 3rd party subclasses, I do hope they add it to the new SRD when that is released so we can see subclass options from the 3rd party folks. While as a player I purchased Volo's both mordainkainen books, as well as Xanathars and Tashas due to the player options class and species options for players is a bigger audience than a book only for DMs so yes if I was a book publisher I want the biggest target group more sales is more sales why would I sell stuff to 1 in 4 or 5 instead of all of them.
"Artificer not dead you can still play it but if it ever gets a release in a new 5.5 book it'll likely never get a subclass outside what book it was released in cuz making subclasses for Artificer is not financially stable cuz it's not a core class"
Which... is literally my entire point? It can't get subclasses cuz Wizard bored with it and unless you buy on dms guild 3rd party publishes like Ghostfire can't make new subclasses cuz I heard that unless the guy who wrote Ebberon owns them says ok you can't make em.
Artificer was published at a time when WotC was very gun-shy about making new material for 5e. I highly, highly doubt we'll have to wait 5 years for it a second time, and another 1-2 for its first subclass and new spells. Not making it to core doesn't mean all is lost.
I know we are getting the artificer but theres just a few things i hate about it not being in the core book 1. feels like they are holding it out just so others (like me) will be forced to buy another book if they want to play the 2024 artificer 2. unless they let up on the rule that you cant make stuff for things not in the core book then once artificer comes out thats it thats all it gets unless it gets reprinted again (like with eberron to tashas) 3. why exclude a whole group of people for what they like?
personally (maybe just me being dramatic) but it feels like WOTC doesnt consider us to be part of the core of dnd and just side content when all other TTRPGs have some type of artificers (the ones similar to DnD)
Again though. How is this different than 5.0, or any other edition that had the Artificer? And it's going to need design time to evaluate and determine what if any updates need to be made (Alchemist especially) - so the designers deserve to be compensated for that time, which they will if it's in a separate product.
Artificer does make non-core things. Currently, it has the ability to replicate any Common item regardless of source for example.
You're not being "excluded" by having to wait for a future book, that's bordering on entitled. They can't cram literally everything into core.
"Artificer not dead you can still play it but if it ever gets a release in a new 5.5 book it'll likely never get a subclass outside what book it was released in cuz making subclasses for Artificer is not financially stable cuz it's not a core class"
Which... is literally my entire point? It can't get subclasses cuz Wizard bored with it and unless you buy on dms guild 3rd party publishes like Ghostfire can't make new subclasses cuz I heard that unless the guy who wrote Ebberon owns them says ok you can't make em.
Artificer was published at a time when WotC was very gun-shy about making new material for 5e. I highly, highly doubt we'll have to wait 5 years for it a second time, and another 1-2 for its first subclass and new spells. Not making it to core doesn't mean all is lost.
I know we are getting the artificer but theres just a few things i hate about it not being in the core book 1. feels like they are holding it out just so others (like me) will be forced to buy another book if they want to play the 2024 artificer 2. unless they let up on the rule that you cant make stuff for things not in the core book then once artificer comes out thats it thats all it gets unless it gets reprinted again (like with eberron to tashas) 3. why exclude a whole group of people for what they like?
personally (maybe just me being dramatic) but it feels like WOTC doesnt consider us to be part of the core of dnd and just side content when all other TTRPGs have some type of artificers (the ones similar to DnD)
Again though. How is this different than 5.0, or any other edition that had the Artificer? And it's going to need design time to evaluate and determine what if any updates need to be made (Alchemist especially) - so the designers deserve to be compensated for that time, which they will if it's in a separate product.
Artificer does make non-core things. Currently, it has the ability to replicate any Common item regardless of source for example.
You're not being "excluded" by having to wait for a future book, that's bordering on entitled. They can't cram literally everything into core.
why couldnt they "cram" artificer in there? it already had 4 subclasses like all the others that just needed to be updated. the amount of room artificer takes up in the tashas books cant be more then 10 to 12 pages. there was no reason that it wouldnt have fit in the book other then wizards just didnt want it
While it's not the same as an official update of course, if you want to see the Artificer get some love for now you can check out the "Alternate Artificer" and its 14 subclasses by Laserllama.
While it's not the same as an official update of course, if you want to see the Artificer get some love for now you can check out the "Alternate Artificer" and its 14 subclasses by Laserllama.
"Artificer not dead you can still play it but if it ever gets a release in a new 5.5 book it'll likely never get a subclass outside what book it was released in cuz making subclasses for Artificer is not financially stable cuz it's not a core class"
Which... is literally my entire point? It can't get subclasses cuz Wizard bored with it and unless you buy on dms guild 3rd party publishes like Ghostfire can't make new subclasses cuz I heard that unless the guy who wrote Ebberon owns them says ok you can't make em.
Artificer was published at a time when WotC was very gun-shy about making new material for 5e. I highly, highly doubt we'll have to wait 5 years for it a second time, and another 1-2 for its first subclass and new spells. Not making it to core doesn't mean all is lost.
I know we are getting the artificer but theres just a few things i hate about it not being in the core book 1. feels like they are holding it out just so others (like me) will be forced to buy another book if they want to play the 2024 artificer 2. unless they let up on the rule that you cant make stuff for things not in the core book then once artificer comes out thats it thats all it gets unless it gets reprinted again (like with eberron to tashas) 3. why exclude a whole group of people for what they like?
personally (maybe just me being dramatic) but it feels like WOTC doesnt consider us to be part of the core of dnd and just side content when all other TTRPGs have some type of artificers (the ones similar to DnD)
Again though. How is this different than 5.0, or any other edition that had the Artificer? And it's going to need design time to evaluate and determine what if any updates need to be made (Alchemist especially) - so the designers deserve to be compensated for that time, which they will if it's in a separate product.
Artificer does make non-core things. Currently, it has the ability to replicate any Common item regardless of source for example.
You're not being "excluded" by having to wait for a future book, that's bordering on entitled. They can't cram literally everything into core.
why couldnt they "cram" artificer in there? it already had 4 subclasses like all the others that just needed to be updated. the amount of room artificer takes up in the tashas books cant be more then 10 to 12 pages. there was no reason that it wouldnt have fit in the book other then wizards just didnt want it
They're allowed to not want it in core. And in addition to the reasons I gave previously, every class and subclass in the PHB needs a full page of brand new art. On top of that, they need to include not just the spell list in the class section, but every spell' school, whether its a ritual, and even its components, in addition to anything in the spells chapter
If all that isn't enough for you, sorry I can't help you further, e-mail Crawford and ask him directly.
While it's not the same as an official update of course, if you want to see the Artificer get some love for now you can check out the "Alternate Artificer" and its 14 subclasses by Laserllama.
"Artificer not dead you can still play it but if it ever gets a release in a new 5.5 book it'll likely never get a subclass outside what book it was released in cuz making subclasses for Artificer is not financially stable cuz it's not a core class"
Which... is literally my entire point? It can't get subclasses cuz Wizard bored with it and unless you buy on dms guild 3rd party publishes like Ghostfire can't make new subclasses cuz I heard that unless the guy who wrote Ebberon owns them says ok you can't make em.
Artificer was published at a time when WotC was very gun-shy about making new material for 5e. I highly, highly doubt we'll have to wait 5 years for it a second time, and another 1-2 for its first subclass and new spells. Not making it to core doesn't mean all is lost.
I know we are getting the artificer but theres just a few things i hate about it not being in the core book 1. feels like they are holding it out just so others (like me) will be forced to buy another book if they want to play the 2024 artificer 2. unless they let up on the rule that you cant make stuff for things not in the core book then once artificer comes out thats it thats all it gets unless it gets reprinted again (like with eberron to tashas) 3. why exclude a whole group of people for what they like?
personally (maybe just me being dramatic) but it feels like WOTC doesnt consider us to be part of the core of dnd and just side content when all other TTRPGs have some type of artificers (the ones similar to DnD)
Again though. How is this different than 5.0, or any other edition that had the Artificer? And it's going to need design time to evaluate and determine what if any updates need to be made (Alchemist especially) - so the designers deserve to be compensated for that time, which they will if it's in a separate product.
Artificer does make non-core things. Currently, it has the ability to replicate any Common item regardless of source for example.
You're not being "excluded" by having to wait for a future book, that's bordering on entitled. They can't cram literally everything into core.
why couldnt they "cram" artificer in there? it already had 4 subclasses like all the others that just needed to be updated. the amount of room artificer takes up in the tashas books cant be more then 10 to 12 pages. there was no reason that it wouldnt have fit in the book other then wizards just didnt want it
They're allowed to not want it in core. And in addition to the reasons I gave previously, every class and subclass in the PHB needs a full page of brand new art. On top of that, they need to include not just the spell list in the class section, but every spell' school, whether its a ritual, and even its components, in addition to anything in the spells chapter
If all that isn't enough for you, sorry I can't help you further, e-mail Crawford and ask him directly.
While it's not the same as an official update of course, if you want to see the Artificer get some love for now you can check out the "Alternate Artificer" and its 14 subclasses by Laserllama.
Strixhaven has no subclasses.
I think they're adding them because they have ideas that are thematically fitting. They seem to have no qualms about not having them. The regular churn of having game designers on staff is going to create player stuff, and you have to put it somewhere.
Yeah; those have enough player stuff that players might buy them in numbers.
I'm not convinced the usual "some of: a subclass or two, a new species, a couple of backgrounds, a few feats" really move the needle. Could I be incorrectly extrapolating from an overly-small, atypical sample (AKA me)? Yes.
Lots of people say this, but I've never seen a citation that it's actually policy, and the sample size for the only non-core class we have is just too small to be useful.
Even if that's still the plan, done with editions <> done with books. This is the first book of the revision, keep calm and give them time.
You don't know if this is true. We know they were already running into space issues since they had to scrap their original plan to put the moon druid forms in the PHB.
1) It's not actually as consistent as you think - the basic Barbarian is Berserker but per the most recent subclass data Totem Warrior beat it. Similarly, the Basic Druid is Land but Moon Druid beat it, and the basic Paladin is Devotion but Vengeance beat it.
2) Remember the scale they use on that graph is wonky. Even if you tripled Artificer, that would put it closer to Druid than Ranger, still on the lower end rather than middle of the pack. And there's good reason to think a factor of three is overstating the paywall effect (see above).
I did know that moon druid was an exception, not the others. In general exceptions seem to come when the basic rules version is really bad.
So reading replies it seems that the opinion is
"Artificer not dead you can still play it but if it ever gets a release in a new 5.5 book it'll likely never get a subclass outside what book it was released in cuz making subclasses for Artificer is not financially stable cuz it's not a core class"
Which... is literally my entire point? It can't get subclasses cuz Wizard bored with it and unless you buy on dms guild 3rd party publishes like Ghostfire can't make new subclasses cuz I heard that unless the guy who wrote Ebberon owns them says ok you can't make em.
Considering the artificer came out 5 to 6 years after the PHB and was never given anything else besides one book to work with i think those numbers are great tbh
Artificer was published at a time when WotC was very gun-shy about making new material for 5e. I highly, highly doubt we'll have to wait 5 years for it a second time, and another 1-2 for its first subclass and new spells. Not making it to core doesn't mean all is lost.
Well I suppose if it comes out in first wave of supplements that's encouraging
I know we are getting the artificer but theres just a few things i hate about it not being in the core book
1. feels like they are holding it out just so others (like me) will be forced to buy another book if they want to play the 2024 artificer
2. unless they let up on the rule that you cant make stuff for things not in the core book then once artificer comes out thats it thats all it gets unless it gets reprinted again (like with eberron to tashas)
3. why exclude a whole group of people for what they like?
personally (maybe just me being dramatic) but it feels like WOTC doesnt consider us to be part of the core of dnd and just side content when all other TTRPGs have some type of artificers (the ones similar to DnD)
The Artificer isn't dead and I big reason it wasn't updated and put in the 2024 version of the PHB is it was updated in Tashas and wasn't in the 2014 PHB and while if it was my choice it would be in the new PHB. As others have stated it also isn't in the SRD so you can't get 3rd party subclasses, I do hope they add it to the new SRD when that is released so we can see subclass options from the 3rd party folks. While as a player I purchased Volo's both mordainkainen books, as well as Xanathars and Tashas due to the player options class and species options for players is a bigger audience than a book only for DMs so yes if I was a book publisher I want the biggest target group more sales is more sales why would I sell stuff to 1 in 4 or 5 instead of all of them.
Hmm that's a good point though feels a bit awkward to release artificer and only tasha cauldron has a new subclass for it
why couldnt they "cram" artificer in there? it already had 4 subclasses like all the others that just needed to be updated. the amount of room artificer takes up in the tashas books cant be more then 10 to 12 pages. there was no reason that it wouldnt have fit in the book other then wizards just didnt want it
In defense of this did the phb need 400 spells
While it's not the same as an official update of course, if you want to see the Artificer get some love for now you can check out the "Alternate Artificer" and its 14 subclasses by Laserllama.
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-M8kCf8mUHGH4y2tx5i4
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-M_Vp0-G2_ELZB3ruaoZ
Least SOME third party has made subs
oh iv seen these before they do great work
DnD beyond really needs to add in letting us make homebrew classes already
They're allowed to not want it in core. And in addition to the reasons I gave previously, every class and subclass in the PHB needs a full page of brand new art. On top of that, they need to include not just the spell list in the class section, but every spell' school, whether its a ritual, and even its components, in addition to anything in the spells chapter
If all that isn't enough for you, sorry I can't help you further, e-mail Crawford and ask him directly.
No, they don't.
I wish they would but the fact is if they did that they'd basically be "supporting" it and theres no return on investment there.
got his email?
I'm not following the point here. I see 58 pages of homebrew artificer subclasses alone here on DDB.