This topic is confusing... What makes being half-whatever species different then being any other species? Is this just people wanting to hear that it's alright to write 'half' infront of their species?? Also does it impact or change anything game-wise being half-whatever species??
Wouldn't half-whatever species only last for one generation or are people looking to make species that are 1/16th whatever species?? Does an ingame characters genetic history even matter??
Sorry if coming across as insensitive but me just don't understand
Ok half- (species) are the mix of one species and another usually human. It's almost always human. In the past Half Elves are the second most common species in the game worlds. Humans being the super Majority and most of the people who live around humans with Elvin features are Half-Elves.
This mimics the real world in one significant way. In places in North and South America, in most of Africa up until the end of the second world war, the people in control of society were European descended. While people from other regions including indigenous people were second class or lower, and only people like me a mix of white and other had any standing.
WotC is trying to remove the inherent European colonialism from the D&D world. But instead of keeping the mixed heritage people, they want to remove them from the setting. By using Species, and not giving a Half/Hybrid option they hope to remove the colonialism from D&D. The problem is, being a half IRL is to be a persecuted minority. You get hate from Pure Europeans, You get hate from your non-white relatives as well. You sit in that halfway place where you can never truly belong.
D&D has always been a game for working out interpersonal issues through Roleplay and intersocial interactions. It's the thing that really allowed me to figure out who I am, when you are not one or the other.
The removal of Halves as they were makes sense, but they needed to keep a place for halves to still exist, because some of are halves.
I'm not fully white, I'm not fully middle eastern, I can pass for white, but I look right out of the big war zone in the middle east. People like me kind of loved playing the mixed ancestry species. And I really hope the hybrid options or something like them come out.
BTW, my personal combo would be Goliath-Gnome if they designed it well. Because my dad was more a goliath than a human, and my mom fit the wood gnome stereotypes, while I act like a rock gnome but I'm well over 6 feet tall.
I won't invalidate how someone else feels or identifies, but comparing fictional species to real life ethnicities is all sorts of uncomfortable, for me. And I know it also makes other people uncomfortable because I've been around for a lot of the feedback about etiquette here on the boards and I know why the following was added to the RULES:
9. Hate Speech There shall not be any hateful discussion and/or discrimination regarding the topics of race, religion, gender, sexuality, country, political belief, color, national origin, disability, or genetics. This includes (but is not limited to):
Racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or ableist content.
Casual racism and/or slurs of any above topics.
Sweeping generalizations about any above topic.
Explicit or literal comparisons between fantasy cultures/tropes and real ones. People are not like “orcs, elves, dwarves, etc”. People are people. No humans in the history of humans will be related, depicted, or regarded in any such manner.
Denial of above topic subtext in depictions of fantasy cultures/tropes.
Diminishing or dismissing the above topics, others’ experiences, or how others may relate to them.
Statements with a disregard or undermining nature towards the above topics, including statements, content, or links associated with hate groups.
Both of the things I bolded are important because while real people are not fictional species, there is also undeniable subtext that racializes fictional species and that is something we have to be aware of as well. Both those things are true.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's wonderful that people can find ways to identify with their characters on various levels. Like with Half Elves and Half Orcs, for example. But I think that can be wonderful at the same time that I think those were badly done representations and more harmful than good. Like I said earlier, when one is starving for representation, even bad representation can feel good.
Which honestly makes it even more frustrating that they didn't give any recourse to make those characters. Not even the version that was in the UA.
This topic is confusing... What makes being half-whatever species different then being any other species? Is this just people wanting to hear that it's alright to write 'half' infront of their species?? Also does it impact or change anything game-wise being half-whatever species??
Wouldn't half-whatever species only last for one generation or are people looking to make species that are 1/16th whatever species?? Does an ingame characters genetic history even matter??
Sorry if coming across as insensitive but me just don't understand
Ok half- (species) are the mix of one species and another usually human. It's almost always human. In the past Half Elves are the second most common species in the game worlds. Humans being the super Majority and most of the people who live around humans with Elvin features are Half-Elves.
so theres more half-elves then there are elves.... (or any other species) never knew that, can you direct me to some info about that, are you sure its not just an exposure issue?? real life example - an african might only meet a single asian in their life but that doesnt mean theres more africans then asians...
also why are the elves who live around humans assumed to be half-elf??
This mimics the real world in one significant way. In places in North and South America, in most of Africa up until the end of the second world war, the people in control of society were European descended. While people from other regions including indigenous people were second class or lower, and only people like me a mix of white and other had any standing.
whats this got to do with d&d though?? is there a class system (2nd, 3rd, middle, whatnot) even in d&d?? if so can you please direct me to it
WotC is trying to remove the inherent European colonialism from the D&D world. But instead of keeping the mixed heritage people, they want to remove them from the setting. By using Species, and not giving a Half/Hybrid option they hope to remove the colonialism from D&D. The problem is, being a half IRL is to be a persecuted minority. You get hate from Pure Europeans, You get hate from your non-white relatives as well. You sit in that halfway place where you can never truly belong.
when did the humans of d&d become european?? always thought their were many different types of humans in the d&d world.. are the humans in d&d even colonising the d&d world... why not any of the other species??
if removing the half-whatever species is the same as removing colonialism... how does having half-whatever species mean that there is colonialism in d&d??
why are you bringing real life into d&d... its your table and game, so wouldn't it only be there if you/dm make it so??
D&D has always been a game for working out interpersonal issues through Roleplay and intersocial interactions. It's the thing that really allowed me to figure out who I am, when you are not one or the other.
for me personally its an escape from reality so cant understand why people want to bring real world issues into their worlds...
The removal of Halves as they were makes sense, but they needed to keep a place for halves to still exist, because some of are halves.
has anyone said they don't exist or is it just an assumption?? isn't representation for species without including needing to be half human a good thing overall??
I'm not fully white, I'm not fully middle eastern, I can pass for white, but I look right out of the big war zone in the middle east. People like me kind of loved playing the mixed ancestry species. And I really hope the hybrid options or something like them come out.
unless people after a certain ingame trait, couldn't you/people pick any species and just say they are "half-whatever"?? like what makes a half-whatever any different to any of the species besides the word "half"...
BTW, my personal combo would be Goliath-Gnome if they designed it well. Because my dad was more a goliath than a human, and my mom fit the wood gnome stereotypes, while I act like a rock gnome but I'm well over 6 feet tall.
interesting combo would a goliath-gnome (or gnome-goliath no clue which way it goes or if parent dependant) function any different then either a goliath or gnome would ingame??
This topic is confusing... What makes being half-whatever species different then being any other species? Is this just people wanting to hear that it's alright to write 'half' infront of their species?? Also does it impact or change anything game-wise being half-whatever species??
Wouldn't half-whatever species only last for one generation or are people looking to make species that are 1/16th whatever species?? Does an ingame characters genetic history even matter??
Sorry if coming across as insensitive but me just don't understand
You can say the first paragraph about any species/race.
As for why...either munchkinism (half-elves were pretty powerful) or the role-playing possibilities. Having a human ancestor means that you don't have the constant interruption of "you're weird" but you also have the exotic ancestry and heritage to explore. You also can have it hidden and slowly revealed in media res, which is more interesting than having to log it in your backstory. My sister is half-Cape Verdean and there's a reason why it comes up as part of conversation - it's an interesting detail that opens up further conversation. It's why half the characters played are orphans or criminals or someone who can't help but fight injustice - it's an easy way to get a story that stops your character from being average Joe.
Another reason might be that some feel (justifiably, IMO) that they get "othered" in real life, and would like to feel that it would be like to have a heritage that makes them "super" rather than "other". That's part of the D&D experience, no? We're experiencing what it's like to be superheroes rather than our average selves?
Personally, I've never played a half-X. Possibly because with my family history, being half-X is normal while my ancestry means that apart from a few quirks only the observant notice, I pass for full native so I'm not "othered" by being mixed, so I don't feel the need? I'm not sure. I just don't feel the need. Other people do though, and I think that should be fully allowed. Just because I don't need something, that doesn't mean someone else doesn't deserve it.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The problem seemed to be that whatever they had, or came up with, there were people of mixed ethnicities that complained.
Before: "why do only humans get to be half-anything, and why only elves and orcs?"
UA: "why do I have to choose one and just flavor the other?"
Now: "why are mixed-species erased?" (I don't think this has actually happened in terms of reconning lore or anything like that)
I said it before, but my feeling is that WotC just didn't see a satisfactory way of doing it, so they left it out completely. Now, I don't have access to the 5.24 DMG yet, but if there's anything in there about customizing species or creating new ones, then that's all you need. Great? No. But I figure they decided that if they were going to make a segment of the population angry with mixed-species rules no matter what, they might as well not waste the money and print space in the books...
*Note that if they were going to address the first problem (only humans and only those two non-human species), then they'd need rules for 45 different "half-species". I don't think that's feasible and the "short and sweet" version of the rules were definitely divisive.
With respect, problem 1 is minor. It worked. The problem of “we can’t do infinite mixed races” is not a reason to remove the two iconic varieties we’ve benefited from and enjoyed for editions.
Erasing them entirely does not help anyone, and I hope they are attacked over it to the point that they go back.
Minor for some, not for others. Again, as this debate raged through pre-, during, and post-UA, mixed ethnicity users here have voiced their problems with each one while others have voiced their approval. I would argue that where they landed wasn't for the majority, because the majority probably didn't even care.
I will say that I'm sad to hear that there is nothing in the new DMG about creating/customizing non-PHB species. I don't think it would have been too hard. Basically, all it required was some guidance on how far to go with species features (as in, how many and how powerful they should be, and provide the guidelines they, themselves, used to tune the features for the revamp). An experienced DM could probably work with a player and homebrew something without much problem, but newer DMs that want to accommodate players in this respect are apparently left with no guidance at all.
I would also have liked some custom species rules. There’s still the custom lineage rules in Tasha’s. Maybe they decided that was enough. But as I look, there’s not really anything about custom subclasses either. There’s stuff for spells and magic items, but that’s about it in terms of things players would use.
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Ok half- (species) are the mix of one species and another usually human. It's almost always human. In the past Half Elves are the second most common species in the game worlds. Humans being the super Majority and most of the people who live around humans with Elvin features are Half-Elves.
This mimics the real world in one significant way. In places in North and South America, in most of Africa up until the end of the second world war, the people in control of society were European descended. While people from other regions including indigenous people were second class or lower, and only people like me a mix of white and other had any standing.
WotC is trying to remove the inherent European colonialism from the D&D world. But instead of keeping the mixed heritage people, they want to remove them from the setting. By using Species, and not giving a Half/Hybrid option they hope to remove the colonialism from D&D. The problem is, being a half IRL is to be a persecuted minority. You get hate from Pure Europeans, You get hate from your non-white relatives as well. You sit in that halfway place where you can never truly belong.
D&D has always been a game for working out interpersonal issues through Roleplay and intersocial interactions. It's the thing that really allowed me to figure out who I am, when you are not one or the other.
The removal of Halves as they were makes sense, but they needed to keep a place for halves to still exist, because some of are halves.
I'm not fully white, I'm not fully middle eastern, I can pass for white, but I look right out of the big war zone in the middle east. People like me kind of loved playing the mixed ancestry species. And I really hope the hybrid options or something like them come out.
BTW, my personal combo would be Goliath-Gnome if they designed it well. Because my dad was more a goliath than a human, and my mom fit the wood gnome stereotypes, while I act like a rock gnome but I'm well over 6 feet tall.
I won't invalidate how someone else feels or identifies, but comparing fictional species to real life ethnicities is all sorts of uncomfortable, for me. And I know it also makes other people uncomfortable because I've been around for a lot of the feedback about etiquette here on the boards and I know why the following was added to the RULES:
Both of the things I bolded are important because while real people are not fictional species, there is also undeniable subtext that racializes fictional species and that is something we have to be aware of as well. Both those things are true.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's wonderful that people can find ways to identify with their characters on various levels. Like with Half Elves and Half Orcs, for example. But I think that can be wonderful at the same time that I think those were badly done representations and more harmful than good. Like I said earlier, when one is starving for representation, even bad representation can feel good.
Which honestly makes it even more frustrating that they didn't give any recourse to make those characters. Not even the version that was in the UA.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
so theres more half-elves then there are elves.... (or any other species) never knew that, can you direct me to some info about that, are you sure its not just an exposure issue?? real life example - an african might only meet a single asian in their life but that doesnt mean theres more africans then asians...
also why are the elves who live around humans assumed to be half-elf??
whats this got to do with d&d though??
is there a class system (2nd, 3rd, middle, whatnot) even in d&d?? if so can you please direct me to it
when did the humans of d&d become european?? always thought their were many different types of humans in the d&d world..
are the humans in d&d even colonising the d&d world... why not any of the other species??
if removing the half-whatever species is the same as removing colonialism... how does having half-whatever species mean that there is colonialism in d&d??
why are you bringing real life into d&d... its your table and game, so wouldn't it only be there if you/dm make it so??
for me personally its an escape from reality so cant understand why people want to bring real world issues into their worlds...
has anyone said they don't exist or is it just an assumption?? isn't representation for species without including needing to be half human a good thing overall??
unless people after a certain ingame trait, couldn't you/people pick any species and just say they are "half-whatever"?? like what makes a half-whatever any different to any of the species besides the word "half"...
interesting combo would a goliath-gnome (or gnome-goliath no clue which way it goes or if parent dependant) function any different then either a goliath or gnome would ingame??
You can say the first paragraph about any species/race.
As for why...either munchkinism (half-elves were pretty powerful) or the role-playing possibilities. Having a human ancestor means that you don't have the constant interruption of "you're weird" but you also have the exotic ancestry and heritage to explore. You also can have it hidden and slowly revealed in media res, which is more interesting than having to log it in your backstory. My sister is half-Cape Verdean and there's a reason why it comes up as part of conversation - it's an interesting detail that opens up further conversation. It's why half the characters played are orphans or criminals or someone who can't help but fight injustice - it's an easy way to get a story that stops your character from being average Joe.
Another reason might be that some feel (justifiably, IMO) that they get "othered" in real life, and would like to feel that it would be like to have a heritage that makes them "super" rather than "other". That's part of the D&D experience, no? We're experiencing what it's like to be superheroes rather than our average selves?
Personally, I've never played a half-X. Possibly because with my family history, being half-X is normal while my ancestry means that apart from a few quirks only the observant notice, I pass for full native so I'm not "othered" by being mixed, so I don't feel the need? I'm not sure. I just don't feel the need. Other people do though, and I think that should be fully allowed. Just because I don't need something, that doesn't mean someone else doesn't deserve it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Minor for some, not for others. Again, as this debate raged through pre-, during, and post-UA, mixed ethnicity users here have voiced their problems with each one while others have voiced their approval. I would argue that where they landed wasn't for the majority, because the majority probably didn't even care.
I will say that I'm sad to hear that there is nothing in the new DMG about creating/customizing non-PHB species. I don't think it would have been too hard. Basically, all it required was some guidance on how far to go with species features (as in, how many and how powerful they should be, and provide the guidelines they, themselves, used to tune the features for the revamp). An experienced DM could probably work with a player and homebrew something without much problem, but newer DMs that want to accommodate players in this respect are apparently left with no guidance at all.
I would also have liked some custom species rules. There’s still the custom lineage rules in Tasha’s. Maybe they decided that was enough.
But as I look, there’s not really anything about custom subclasses either.
There’s stuff for spells and magic items, but that’s about it in terms of things players would use.