Wizard class has always been lacking in subclass features. They make excuses about it by saying they have the best spell selection. However, that's not a good reason for having dull boring subclasses with mostly ribbon features.
I agree with this, it seems like their subclasses are all "You know divination" or "You know evocation". That's why I love warlocks and sorcerers.
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Artificer and Blood Hunter both stand out as having only four subclasses.
I'd love a swordmage type artificer, with the artificer crafting or enchanting their chosen weapon. From then they can apply a selection of 'strikes' through that weapon.
Blood Hunter feels like there is a ton of potential subclasses it could have if its creators decided to update it again. Both a vampiric and a draconic blood hunter would work brilliantly.
I'd also really like an elemental themed ranger. Where you picked one of the four elements to focus on and worked around that single element as a theme. It could go really well with genasi characters.
Artificer and Blood Hunter both stand out as having only four subclasses.
I'd love a swordmage type artificer, with the artificer crafting or enchanting their chosen weapon. From then they can apply a selection of 'strikes' through that weapon.
Blood Hunter feels like there is a ton of potential subclasses it could have if its creators decided to update it again. Both a vampiric and a draconic blood hunter would work brilliantly.
I'd also really like an elemental themed ranger. Where you picked one of the four elements to focus on and worked around that single element as a theme. It could go really well with genasi characters.
I agree, and would like Wizards of the Coast to make at least 1 more Artificer subclass by the end of 2025, when the 2024 core rule books are all released. Your swordmage idea is really cool.
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I think the reason why Wizard subclasses are so tame is because the base class is so powerful. Like, all the Evocation Wizard (at least in 2014e) had going for it was that it could sculpt its AoEs - but it was still a very powerful a flavourful build. You can't do a lot with the subclasses without making the build OP. It's just the design of the class heavily favours the chassis over the bodywork that goes on top in comparison to the other classes.
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Wizards do miss the Transmuter and the Necromancer, although I’d actually like to see both these translated into Artificer subclasses.
The Transmuter is already the Alchemist in effect anyway, but I could really appreciate a creepy Frankenstein-like application of an Artificer Necromancer subclass!
Inspired by the experiment with having three spell lists during the play test, I wondered: if we have an Arcane Trickster, could we have Divine and Primal Tricksters? A Primal Trickster could have some limited Wild Shape abilities, evoking the animal trickster archetype from folklore. Not so sure about the Divine Trickster: possibly similar to the Trickery Domain Cleric, but approached from the opposite direction, as it were?
Inspired by the experiment with having three spell lists during the play test, I wondered: if we have an Arcane Trickster, could we have Divine and Primal Tricksters? A Primal Trickster could have some limited Wild Shape abilities, evoking the animal trickster archetype from folklore. Not so sure about the Divine Trickster: possibly similar to the Trickery Domain Cleric, but approached from the opposite direction, as it were?
i played around to make a homebrew for both. Divine Scoundrel and Primal Stalker. Divine Scoundrel would have Guidance as their key spells (instead of mage hand) and be more about buffing their own skills and that of others (guidance is 1d4+number of sneak attack dice), with a auto cast revivify on themselves if they have the spell slot for it. Primal Stalker was really difficult to pick a key spell. Shillelagh or Thorn Whip are the most likely candidates, and i went with Shillelagh and made it be eligible for sneak attacks, but after that it got difficult to what give them else. Shapeshifting i have not thought about. I'm not a fan of giving non-druids the same wild shape, but perhaps polymorph?
i played around to make a homebrew for both. Divine Scoundrel and Primal Stalker. Divine Scoundrel would have Guidance as their key spells (instead of mage hand) and be more about buffing their own skills and that of others (guidance is 1d4+number of sneak attack dice), with a auto cast revivify on themselves if they have the spell slot for it. Primal Stalker was really difficult to pick a key spell. Shillelagh or Thorn Whip are the most likely candidates, and i went with Shillelagh and made it be eligible for sneak attacks, but after that it got difficult to what give them else. Shapeshifting i have not thought about. I'm not a fan of giving non-druids the same wild shape, but perhaps polymorph?
Thanks! That sounds like a good basis for the Divine rogue!
Being able to do Radiant Sneak Attack damage at higher levels seems like an obvious addition.
I would be extremely surprised to see this occur - and think it would be actively bad for the game. Wizards are intentionally designed to have the largest and most versatile spell list, giving them an answer to almost any problem. The one thing they are designed to be bad at is healing. This is necessary for game design. It provides a strong incentive to play less versatile spellcasting classes like Bard or Cleric and ensures the Wizard, the class most likely to step on others’ toes, has a set of toes it cannot step on.
To be honest, there's only one answer to this question. Sure, all the classes would benefit from more good options (and "good" is the key word there), but only one class needs new and good subclasses - the Artificer.
Could not agree with this more, and thus is why Artificer got my vote. Beyond merely being stuck behind a paywall, Artificer is the class most likely to be told “you don’t fit in my world.” It is easy to see why - it has the fewest subclasses, leading to limited applicability (not to mention the generally acknowledged “best” subclass has a robot companion that clashes with many settings).
There are lots of things Wizards could do with the class. A subclass who works in wood and bone. An artisan who makes animated stone statues, which would fit better with many fantasy settings than contraptions of gears and metal. Artificers who work in flesh, either like Doctor Frankenstein or the techno-necromancy found on Ravnica Fixing the disaster that is the alchemical subclass - the most universally applicable subclass - so folks actually want to play it.
Alas, by excluding it from the core books, and thus not making it a foundational component of the game, I expect 5.24 will continue to keep Artificer limited in terms of its subclass options.
I definitely agree. I would like to artificer more as creators than mechanics. I love the idea of an artificer working with flesh as a darker subclass. I'll also add that alchemy sounds like a great idea if done right and not focused entirely on potions like some fantasy series do. Although, agreeing with you again, I do feel like they'll keep the artificer limited since the 2024 players handbook doesn't have it as an option.
If I were WOTC, I'd add a flesh worker for a darker take and a more necromantic vibe. Also (you can disagree since you seem to know a lot about D&D mechanics) a cyborg type of subclass that alters themself instead of creating something new. But it's unlikely the artificer will get a lot of focus. I hope they can add at least 2 more subclasses, that would be nice.
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Frankly, banning Artificer as “too mechanical” is more a failure of imagination than anything else. You just shift the “robot buddy” to “small golem”, for example, and presto! A 100% fantasy take on the feature. There’s nothing that comes to mind in the features that can’t easily be shifted into an “a wizard did it” aesthetic rather than being a fusion of magic and engineering/mechanics.
That said, would definitely be nice to see a few more official subclasses.
Frankly, banning Artificer as “too mechanical” is more a failure of imagination than anything else. You just shift the “robot buddy” to “small golem”, for example, and presto! A 100% fantasy take on the feature. There’s nothing that comes to mind in the features that can’t easily be shifted into an “a wizard did it” aesthetic rather than being a fusion of magic and engineering/mechanics.
That said, would definitely be nice to see a few more official subclasses.
Agreed. Plus, guns exist in D&D canon (the DM just has to allow it) so why not have someone crafty? It's not nuclear physics.
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Check out Monach of the Realms forum game!As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
Frankly, banning Artificer as “too mechanical” is more a failure of imagination than anything else. You just shift the “robot buddy” to “small golem”, for example, and presto! A 100% fantasy take on the feature. There’s nothing that comes to mind in the features that can’t easily be shifted into an “a wizard did it” aesthetic rather than being a fusion of magic and engineering/mechanics.
That said, would definitely be nice to see a few more official subclasses.
Agreed. Plus, guns exist in D&D canon (the DM just has to allow it) so why not have someone crafty? It's not nuclear physics.
Honestly, I'm pretty "meh" about them standardizing guns as a PHB option. For one thing, they don't actually feel like guns in a generally medieval setting should, given that they have approximately equal if not worse performance than bows. Plus the presence of all the factors necessary for guns to exist is a worldbuilding decision, so it's supposed to be up to the DM. Putting them in the PHB undermines that paradigm.
Frankly, banning Artificer as “too mechanical” is more a failure of imagination than anything else. You just shift the “robot buddy” to “small golem”, for example, and presto! A 100% fantasy take on the feature. There’s nothing that comes to mind in the features that can’t easily be shifted into an “a wizard did it” aesthetic rather than being a fusion of magic and engineering/mechanics.
That said, would definitely be nice to see a few more official subclasses.
Agreed. Plus, guns exist in D&D canon (the DM just has to allow it) so why not have someone crafty? It's not nuclear physics.
Honestly, I'm pretty "meh" about them standardizing guns as a PHB option. For one thing, they don't actually feel like guns in a generally medieval setting should, given that they have approximately equal if not worse performance than bows. Plus the presence of all the factors necessary for guns to exist is a worldbuilding decision, so it's supposed to be up to the DM. Putting them in the PHB undermines that paradigm.
The guns were just an analogy, sorry for the confusion. Although gunpowder in real life has been used since the 9nth century and D&D lore spans from just before that to the Renaissance era, which is the 13th century, so guns technically would work technologically. But anyways, I didn't mean literally D&D guns, just saying that if that works why can't Artificers?
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Check out Monach of the Realms forum game!As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
every class should get cool new subclasses. And looking at the 2024 PHB, most of them are pretty cool. And there are so many concepts still untapped!
Monk: a monk that can actually use heavy weapons or at least polearms, a zen-archer
and much much more!
Monks have never been able t use those items. In fact, earlier editions, they couldn't even use weapons at all. I personally would like to see the Open Hand go away, as it should be the Monk Default anyway. Or at least Quivering Palm should be default at 17th level .
every class should get cool new subclasses. And looking at the 2024 PHB, most of them are pretty cool. And there are so many concepts still untapped!
Monk: a monk that can actually use heavy weapons or at least polearms, a zen-archer
and much much more!
Monks have never been able t use those items. In fact, earlier editions, they couldn't even use weapons at all. I personally would like to see the Open Hand go away, as it should be the Monk Default anyway. Or at least Quivering Palm should be default at 17th level .
I agree, monks seem more like speed and agility characters and heavy weapons would just make it a fighter who hits fast.
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Check out Monach of the Realms forum game!As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
every class should get cool new subclasses. And looking at the 2024 PHB, most of them are pretty cool. And there are so many concepts still untapped!
Monk: a monk that can actually use heavy weapons or at least polearms, a zen-archer
and much much more!
Monks have never been able t use those items. In fact, earlier editions, they couldn't even use weapons at all. I personally would like to see the Open Hand go away, as it should be the Monk Default anyway. Or at least Quivering Palm should be default at 17th level .
I agree, monks seem more like speed and agility characters and heavy weapons would just make it a fighter who hits fast.
Back in 2E I had a custom monk class that was based on STR instead of Dex. It was built around body hardening and self sacrifice. He mostly used unarmed but also carried a naginata. He was one of my favorite characters ever. There absolutely is room to make a STR based and other variants. He didn't feel like a fighter at all.
every class should get cool new subclasses. And looking at the 2024 PHB, most of them are pretty cool. And there are so many concepts still untapped!
Monk: a monk that can actually use heavy weapons or at least polearms, a zen-archer
and much much more!
Monks have never been able t use those items. In fact, earlier editions, they couldn't even use weapons at all. I personally would like to see the Open Hand go away, as it should be the Monk Default anyway. Or at least Quivering Palm should be default at 17th level .
That isn't exactly true. 3rd (or 3.5 at least) had prestige classes that allowed a monk to use a signature weapon or a bow.
Doing it with the base class was a feature of Pathfinder though, not D&D.
every class should get cool new subclasses. And looking at the 2024 PHB, most of them are pretty cool. And there are so many concepts still untapped!
Monk: a monk that can actually use heavy weapons or at least polearms, a zen-archer
and much much more!
Monks have never been able t use those items. In fact, earlier editions, they couldn't even use weapons at all. I personally would like to see the Open Hand go away, as it should be the Monk Default anyway. Or at least Quivering Palm should be default at 17th level .
Look up shaolin monks and weapons, the people most of the monk class is based on. Among them you find stuff like the Yue Ya Chan (monk's spade), Pu dao (basically a glaive), or Tiger Fork (trident, which monks don't have proficiency in). The unarmed monk is just the most basic of that.
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I agree with this, it seems like their subclasses are all "You know divination" or "You know evocation". That's why I love warlocks and sorcerers.
Check out Monach of the Realms forum game! As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
Artificer and Blood Hunter both stand out as having only four subclasses.
I'd love a swordmage type artificer, with the artificer crafting or enchanting their chosen weapon. From then they can apply a selection of 'strikes' through that weapon.
Blood Hunter feels like there is a ton of potential subclasses it could have if its creators decided to update it again. Both a vampiric and a draconic blood hunter would work brilliantly.
I'd also really like an elemental themed ranger. Where you picked one of the four elements to focus on and worked around that single element as a theme. It could go really well with genasi characters.
I agree, and would like Wizards of the Coast to make at least 1 more Artificer subclass by the end of 2025, when the 2024 core rule books are all released. Your swordmage idea is really cool.
Check out Monach of the Realms forum game! As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
Indeed, my lads. Even the fighter has special subclasses such as the Eldritch Knight, yet wizards are not given as much glory. They need more thought.
Altara Ethellebryn Cassius, the Hallowed King of Voxus Umbria...
I think the reason why Wizard subclasses are so tame is because the base class is so powerful. Like, all the Evocation Wizard (at least in 2014e) had going for it was that it could sculpt its AoEs - but it was still a very powerful a flavourful build. You can't do a lot with the subclasses without making the build OP. It's just the design of the class heavily favours the chassis over the bodywork that goes on top in comparison to the other classes.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Wizards do miss the Transmuter and the Necromancer, although I’d actually like to see both these translated into Artificer subclasses.
The Transmuter is already the Alchemist in effect anyway, but I could really appreciate a creepy Frankenstein-like application of an Artificer Necromancer subclass!
Inspired by the experiment with having three spell lists during the play test, I wondered: if we have an Arcane Trickster, could we have Divine and Primal Tricksters? A Primal Trickster could have some limited Wild Shape abilities, evoking the animal trickster archetype from folklore. Not so sure about the Divine Trickster: possibly similar to the Trickery Domain Cleric, but approached from the opposite direction, as it were?
i played around to make a homebrew for both. Divine Scoundrel and Primal Stalker. Divine Scoundrel would have Guidance as their key spells (instead of mage hand) and be more about buffing their own skills and that of others (guidance is 1d4+number of sneak attack dice), with a auto cast revivify on themselves if they have the spell slot for it. Primal Stalker was really difficult to pick a key spell. Shillelagh or Thorn Whip are the most likely candidates, and i went with Shillelagh and made it be eligible for sneak attacks, but after that it got difficult to what give them else. Shapeshifting i have not thought about. I'm not a fan of giving non-druids the same wild shape, but perhaps polymorph?
Thanks! That sounds like a good basis for the Divine rogue!
Being able to do Radiant Sneak Attack damage at higher levels seems like an obvious addition.
I definitely agree. I would like to artificer more as creators than mechanics. I love the idea of an artificer working with flesh as a darker subclass. I'll also add that alchemy sounds like a great idea if done right and not focused entirely on potions like some fantasy series do. Although, agreeing with you again, I do feel like they'll keep the artificer limited since the 2024 players handbook doesn't have it as an option.
If I were WOTC, I'd add a flesh worker for a darker take and a more necromantic vibe. Also (you can disagree since you seem to know a lot about D&D mechanics) a cyborg type of subclass that alters themself instead of creating something new. But it's unlikely the artificer will get a lot of focus. I hope they can add at least 2 more subclasses, that would be nice.
Check out Monach of the Realms forum game! As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
Frankly, banning Artificer as “too mechanical” is more a failure of imagination than anything else. You just shift the “robot buddy” to “small golem”, for example, and presto! A 100% fantasy take on the feature. There’s nothing that comes to mind in the features that can’t easily be shifted into an “a wizard did it” aesthetic rather than being a fusion of magic and engineering/mechanics.
That said, would definitely be nice to see a few more official subclasses.
Agreed. Plus, guns exist in D&D canon (the DM just has to allow it) so why not have someone crafty? It's not nuclear physics.
Check out Monach of the Realms forum game! As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
Honestly, I'm pretty "meh" about them standardizing guns as a PHB option. For one thing, they don't actually feel like guns in a generally medieval setting should, given that they have approximately equal if not worse performance than bows. Plus the presence of all the factors necessary for guns to exist is a worldbuilding decision, so it's supposed to be up to the DM. Putting them in the PHB undermines that paradigm.
The guns were just an analogy, sorry for the confusion. Although gunpowder in real life has been used since the 9nth century and D&D lore spans from just before that to the Renaissance era, which is the 13th century, so guns technically would work technologically. But anyways, I didn't mean literally D&D guns, just saying that if that works why can't Artificers?
Check out Monach of the Realms forum game! As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
Monks have never been able t use those items. In fact, earlier editions, they couldn't even use weapons at all. I personally would like to see the Open Hand go away, as it should be the Monk Default anyway. Or at least Quivering Palm should be default at 17th level .
I agree, monks seem more like speed and agility characters and heavy weapons would just make it a fighter who hits fast.
Check out Monach of the Realms forum game! As Djinni you'll know me, for I am your king. From void I have shaped thee, I've shaped everything. But please do not kneel, just look and behold, I rule you to heal and share stories untold. The mask that I wear is a crude one of glass, so your soul will repair if you glance at me fast. You'll pray that you know me, and I'll let your heart ring. I'm as strong as the world tree and I'll make your heart sing.
Back in 2E I had a custom monk class that was based on STR instead of Dex. It was built around body hardening and self sacrifice. He mostly used unarmed but also carried a naginata. He was one of my favorite characters ever. There absolutely is room to make a STR based and other variants. He didn't feel like a fighter at all.
That isn't exactly true. 3rd (or 3.5 at least) had prestige classes that allowed a monk to use a signature weapon or a bow.
Doing it with the base class was a feature of Pathfinder though, not D&D.
Look up shaolin monks and weapons, the people most of the monk class is based on. Among them you find stuff like the Yue Ya Chan (monk's spade), Pu dao (basically a glaive), or Tiger Fork (trident, which monks don't have proficiency in). The unarmed monk is just the most basic of that.