So, looks like the free rules have been updated with encounter building. It looks a lot like 2014, but:
There are only three difficulties (low, moderate, and high). The budgets are basically the same as medium, high, and deadly in 2014 (starting in tier 2, slightly higher), but unlike in 2014, where you rounded difficulty down (so if you're midway between medium and hard, it's a medium encounter), you round difficulty up (so if you're midway between low and moderate, it's moderate).
The 'modify xp for multiple monsters' step is totally gone.
I feel like this may have created a problem
Boss fights are about the same, since typically you'd match or slightly exceed the budget in 2014, whereas in 2024 you expect to match or be slightly under. Thus, for 4x level 10 PC, in 2014 you expect slightly over 11,200 xp, in 2024 you expect slightly under 12,400 xp. Both result in the same target creature (CR 14, 11,500 xp).
Minion fights are harder. If I'm using CR 3 monsters (700 xp each), in 2014 I use 7 of them (4,900 xp, 12,250 adjusted), in 2024 I use 17 of them (11,900 xp).
However... people already consider multiple monster fights harder than solo monster fights in 2014. Amplifying that effect seems backwards.
It does seem strange that they've relegated accounting for numbers of enemies from being part of the builder to being a note warning that it might be an issue. Perhaps they felt the encounter builder was too complex and needed streamlining? I can't say they're wrong, but it felt too insensitive as it was.
As for deepening the divide between solo monsters and mobs...I kind of agree, kind of don't. I don't in the sense that they needed to buff encounters. Perhaps removing the buff of numbers aspect was a way of making encounters have more substance to them. Maybe they couldn't really do something similar for solo monsters?
However, I honestly feel that the should have taken the opportunity to overhaul the CR system from the ground up and get it really working properly. Currently, anything less than "Deadly" is boring and no challenge at all, and that's not very useful. Sure, fixing it would mean changing CRs of creatures...but with a new manual coming out, it was the moment to do it. Instead, we're stuck with this encounter builder that's still long using out of date premises.
One of the things is that there seemed to be a trend of weakening the creatures rather than buffing them. That doesn't seem the way it should be heading.
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That seems to be why they note the other stuff, like waves, and adapting in the fly.
my default basis is for max number of critters is 1.5 critters per party member. For big parties I drop it to 1.25. But I also stagger my encounters. There’s no time I would drop 17 critters in a single fight — but I am, perhaps, a tad bit more experienced, maybe? Or just not a glutton for punishment when I have a party of 9 and half of them have companions.
i do an episodic style, though — and episodes are broken down into “scenes”, which is where the real action happens. So my budgets are always by Episode, and then the 5 to 10 scenes in each episode divide up all that budget in someway.
And I think this is where they are going — both leads use a similar style, though maybe not as granular. To set up a budget per episode, or series of smaller events. Rather than fighting 17 all at once, you fight two groups of 7, and there’s wanderers who come in from behind or later.
the Fight or flight section under encounter in chapter 2, troubleshooting in chp 4, monster behavior there as well. Then there’s the pace and tension in chp 4.
They do this a few times — talk around direct points. I get why, but it is annoying.
It’s in 2014, but also obfuscated: what is an encounter? Is it just a single moment, or is it something that can stretch out over a space and place and time?
As a whole, I get the sense they are trying to break free of the “game about about combat” mindset, and make people think about how they use combat, and monsters.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
It does seem strange that they've relegated accounting for numbers of enemies from being part of the builder to being a note warning that it might be an issue. Perhaps they felt the encounter builder was too complex and needed streamlining? I can't say they're wrong, but it felt too insensitive as it was.
As for deepening the divide between solo monsters and mobs...I kind of agree, kind of don't. I don't in the sense that they needed to buff encounters. Perhaps removing the buff of numbers aspect was a way of making encounters have more substance to them. Maybe they couldn't really do something similar for solo monsters?
Encounter building was definitely too complex and in need of streamlining. The problem is that they tried to use experience points, and the experience point table was designed around the 2014 scaling, so it just doesn't work without the numbers adjustment.
It would have been simple to buff encounters if they kept the 2014 numbers scaling -- just increase the budgets across the board, done. If they want to get rid of the numbers modifier, it's possible to do, it just can't use the xp values directly, it has to use something with slower CR scaling -- you can come close to the original scaling by using the 2/3 power of xp value (they could also have renormalized monsters so the xp system actually works, but that would be a massive change that invalidates existing monster writeups, so not really an option).
Has anyone questioned what to do when you have characters of different levels in a party?
What would the XP budget be with a party of lv 1, 3 and 4 characters?
XP budgets are per PC, so just add up the xp budgets for one PC of level 1, one PC of level 3, and one PC of level 4. This is likely to turn out badly for the level 1, but that's not the fault of the xp budgets, that's just a consequence of significant level disparities in a party.
My guess.. or perhaps my hope is that the new monster manual addresses these changes from the monster design side of things. There is a lot you can do with monster design that could completely alter the way this plays out. Until we see that book, this encounter building change is mostly irrelevant.
My guess.. or perhaps my hope is that the new monster manual addresses these changes from the monster design side of things. There is a lot you can do with monster design that could completely alter the way this plays out.
We've seen enough monster designs between leaks, the beasts in the free rules, and scions of elemental evil, to say that it hasn't dramatically changed. 1xogre does 13 dpr with an attack bonus of +6 and 68 hp. 18xcultist does 81 dpr with an attack bonus of +4 and 162 combined hp. They're the same 450 xp. Now, the mob of cultists is a lot more vulnerable to area damage and zoning than the single ogre, so they aren't actually as much more dangerous than the ogre as those numbers look like... but they're still considerably more dangerous on average.
The other factor to remember about the cultist mob is that the dpr will dip as you clear out enemies, whereas the ogre will be fairly consistent throughout the fight.
I’m wondering how much of this will right itself when the new MM comes out? It. May be that the new design is intended to work with the changed stats of the new MM and the glitches are ( to one extent or another) due to using the 2014 stats for the moment.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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So, looks like the free rules have been updated with encounter building. It looks a lot like 2014, but:
I feel like this may have created a problem
However... people already consider multiple monster fights harder than solo monster fights in 2014. Amplifying that effect seems backwards.
It does seem strange that they've relegated accounting for numbers of enemies from being part of the builder to being a note warning that it might be an issue. Perhaps they felt the encounter builder was too complex and needed streamlining? I can't say they're wrong, but it felt too insensitive as it was.
As for deepening the divide between solo monsters and mobs...I kind of agree, kind of don't. I don't in the sense that they needed to buff encounters. Perhaps removing the buff of numbers aspect was a way of making encounters have more substance to them. Maybe they couldn't really do something similar for solo monsters?
However, I honestly feel that the should have taken the opportunity to overhaul the CR system from the ground up and get it really working properly. Currently, anything less than "Deadly" is boring and no challenge at all, and that's not very useful. Sure, fixing it would mean changing CRs of creatures...but with a new manual coming out, it was the moment to do it. Instead, we're stuck with this encounter builder that's still long using out of date premises.
One of the things is that there seemed to be a trend of weakening the creatures rather than buffing them. That doesn't seem the way it should be heading.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That seems to be why they note the other stuff, like waves, and adapting in the fly.
my default basis is for max number of critters is 1.5 critters per party member. For big parties I drop it to 1.25. But I also stagger my encounters. There’s no time I would drop 17 critters in a single fight — but I am, perhaps, a tad bit more experienced, maybe? Or just not a glutton for punishment when I have a party of 9 and half of them have companions.
i do an episodic style, though — and episodes are broken down into “scenes”, which is where the real action happens. So my budgets are always by Episode, and then the 5 to 10 scenes in each episode divide up all that budget in someway.
And I think this is where they are going — both leads use a similar style, though maybe not as granular. To set up a budget per episode, or series of smaller events. Rather than fighting 17 all at once, you fight two groups of 7, and there’s wanderers who come in from behind or later.
the Fight or flight section under encounter in chapter 2, troubleshooting in chp 4, monster behavior there as well. Then there’s the pace and tension in chp 4.
They do this a few times — talk around direct points. I get why, but it is annoying.
It’s in 2014, but also obfuscated: what is an encounter? Is it just a single moment, or is it something that can stretch out over a space and place and time?
As a whole, I get the sense they are trying to break free of the “game about about combat” mindset, and make people think about how they use combat, and monsters.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Encounter building was definitely too complex and in need of streamlining. The problem is that they tried to use experience points, and the experience point table was designed around the 2014 scaling, so it just doesn't work without the numbers adjustment.
It would have been simple to buff encounters if they kept the 2014 numbers scaling -- just increase the budgets across the board, done. If they want to get rid of the numbers modifier, it's possible to do, it just can't use the xp values directly, it has to use something with slower CR scaling -- you can come close to the original scaling by using the 2/3 power of xp value (they could also have renormalized monsters so the xp system actually works, but that would be a massive change that invalidates existing monster writeups, so not really an option).
Has anyone questioned what to do when you have characters of different levels in a party?
What would the XP budget be with a party of lv 1, 3 and 4 characters?
XP budgets are per PC, so just add up the xp budgets for one PC of level 1, one PC of level 3, and one PC of level 4. This is likely to turn out badly for the level 1, but that's not the fault of the xp budgets, that's just a consequence of significant level disparities in a party.
In dndbeyond maps in now tell you the difficulty of the encounter + track initiative but not much more https://100001****/
My guess.. or perhaps my hope is that the new monster manual addresses these changes from the monster design side of things. There is a lot you can do with monster design that could completely alter the way this plays out. Until we see that book, this encounter building change is mostly irrelevant.
Its going to be a wait and see thing.
We've seen enough monster designs between leaks, the beasts in the free rules, and scions of elemental evil, to say that it hasn't dramatically changed. 1xogre does 13 dpr with an attack bonus of +6 and 68 hp. 18xcultist does 81 dpr with an attack bonus of +4 and 162 combined hp. They're the same 450 xp. Now, the mob of cultists is a lot more vulnerable to area damage and zoning than the single ogre, so they aren't actually as much more dangerous than the ogre as those numbers look like... but they're still considerably more dangerous on average.
The other factor to remember about the cultist mob is that the dpr will dip as you clear out enemies, whereas the ogre will be fairly consistent throughout the fight.
I’m wondering how much of this will right itself when the new MM comes out? It. May be that the new design is intended to work with the changed stats of the new MM and the glitches are ( to one extent or another) due to using the 2014 stats for the moment.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.