Here's the scenario. Your initial action, with a light weapon and the Nick mastery ability, can move your offhand weapon to attack along with your main hand during this action.
Lets say you didn't utilize this on your main action (either by switching in a Nick capable weapon, or by doing something else) and you Action surged. Do you gain the Nick ability as normal for the Action surged added Action? It's only once per turn, but it hasn't been used yet.
My wonder here is if you can cast a spell with your main action, action surge, use a Nick weapon (you have Mastery) and gain the benefit of the offhand attack.
My next question is how Action Surge affects Extra Attack. If you have an extra attack, can you get another one for the Action Surge action, or is it only one Attack for the Action Surge. The text in the 2024 PHB says you gain an Attack Action, so it would seem so, but I want to check and get some feedback.
Possible combos:
1) Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack. Action Surge - Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
2) Magic Action (Cast Spell). Bonus action (any that is legal given that a spell has been cast, adhering to the one leveled spell rule). Action Surge - Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
Action surge should be fine, you are still taking an "attack action". As such an Eldritch Knight could cast Thunder wave, then trigger action surge and take the attack action and activate nick. Not sure I would recommend two-weapon fighting for a fighter in 2024 tho, Fighter gets far more mileage from Great Weapon Master once at 3 attacks per action. If only playing to level 12, it's fine but anything past that... wouldn't recommend it since two-weapon fighting damage falls off a cliff in Tier 3, unless you're a Rogue.
Here's the scenario. Your initial action, with a light weapon and the Nick mastery ability, can move your offhand weapon to attack along with your main hand during this action.
Lets say you didn't utilize this on your main action (either by switching in a Nick capable weapon, or by doing something else) and you Action surged. Do you gain the Nick ability as normal for the Action surged added Action? It's only once per turn, but it hasn't been used yet.
My wonder here is if you can cast a spell with your main action, action surge, use a Nick weapon (you have Mastery) and gain the benefit of the offhand attack.
My next question is how Action Surge affects Extra Attack. If you have an extra attack, can you get another one for the Action Surge action, or is it only one Attack for the Action Surge. The text in the 2024 PHB says you gain an Attack Action, so it would seem so, but I want to check and get some feedback.
Possible combos:
1) Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack. Action Surge - Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
2) Magic Action (Cast Spell). Bonus action (any that is legal given that a spell has been cast, adhering to the one leveled spell rule). Action Surge - Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
Does this make sense? Thanks in advance
As long as you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as part of the Attack action, wether its your regular action or the additional action from Action Surge.
1) Extra Attack let you attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn, wether its your regular action or the additional action from Action Surge.
Here's the scenario. Your initial action, with a light weapon and the Nick mastery ability, can move your offhand weapon to attack along with your main hand during this action.
Lets say you didn't utilize this on your main action (either by switching in a Nick capable weapon, or by doing something else) and you Action surged. Do you gain the Nick ability as normal for the Action surged added Action? It's only once per turn, but it hasn't been used yet.
Yes. The attack action you can take from action surge is no different from your regular attack action.
My wonder here is if you can cast a spell with your main action, action surge, use a Nick weapon (you have Mastery) and gain the benefit of the offhand attack.
My next question is how Action Surge affects Extra Attack. If you have an extra attack, can you get another one for the Action Surge action, or is it only one Attack for the Action Surge. The text in the 2024 PHB says you gain an Attack Action, so it would seem so, but I want to check and get some feedback.
Correct. It's an attack action, so you get to use abilities that key off attack actions.
Possible combos:
1) Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack. Action Surge - Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
This doesn't work. If you're using Nick for an off-hand attack, then you only get to use the extra attack of the Light property once per turn.
If you're not using Nick, then you only have the one bonus action.
(And no, you can't take the bonus action attack on the first attack action, and use nick on the second -- you've already used the additional attack of the light property once on the turn)
2) Magic Action (Cast Spell). Bonus action (any that is legal given that a spell has been cast, adhering to the one leveled spell rule). Action Surge - Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
This works.
Just as a technical point unconnected to the question at hand: The rule isn't "one leveled spell". It's "only one spell slot". Leveled spells you get from other sources are fair game.
Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
Keep in mind also that the Nick Mastery applies to the extra attack (of the Light Property), not the initial attack. So, it's the offhand Attack that must be "with Nick Mastery":
Attack Action --> Attack with Light weapon, offhand Attack with Nick Mastery.
You do NOT need Dual Weidler to make it work the way I asked about it. That feat gives an added Bonus action attack later in the round, which is on top of the sequence I was inquiring about, not a requirement. You only need Mastery to make this work, have the appropriate Light weapons and be 5th level class that gives the extra attack.
I did mix up the weapons that need to be in what hand, so I posted below an edit to the sequences I am inquiring about.
FYI, I never mentioned Dual Wielder for a reason. I'm aware that it gives another attack as a bonus, but it isn't required for this scenario. The character hasn't taken that feat yet (Warcaster was first to be able to cast while holding weapons in each hand, and for the Cha boost). I have added it in my post below, but please, don't introduce something new if I'm not asking about it. :)
Ok, so I re-read the Light and Nick rules. I see what you mean. Updated sequence as follows:
Fighter/Valor Bard equipped -Main hand Sword Sword (Vex), Off-Hand Scimiatar (Nick). Both weapons are Light. This character has extra attack due to sufficient level in either class. This character also has War Caster, so as a Valor Bard, the weapons count as Focus and the character can cast while having weapons in both hands.
Scenario 1: Maximum attacks
1)Attack Action: Short Sword in Main Hand (Vex - gives Adv next attack if you dealt damage)
2) As part of the Action, Attack with offhand Scimitar, due to the Scimitar being a Light weapon with the Nick property. This is done with Advantage if the main hand Attack with the Short Sword hits and does damage.
3) Extra attack with main hand weapon, ie Short Sword (I'm unsure if the extra attack must be taken immediately after the main Attack, or if it has to happen after the off-hand Nick attack, so if you know, please say so, thanks).
4) Action Surge - An added Attack Action. Nick has already happened this turn, so no added attack from that). Attack - Short Sword (Vex).
5) Extra Attack - advantage on this IF the Action Surge Short Sword attack hits, and if this attack hits, the next attack will be at advantage due to the Vex. There is not limit to the number of times Vex can work in a round, and it even extends to your next attack before the end of you following Turn.
6) IF this character also has Duel Wield feat, then the unused Bonus Action can also be an Attack with the offhand weapon, OR it can be used to cast a spell or ability that can be used via a Bonus Action. Example: Second Wind, or Bardic Inspiration, or a Bonus action spell)
Scenario 2. This character wants the main action to be a Spell and is relying on the Action Surge for the attack sequence.
Same combo of weapons and skills above, so no need to retype it. Remember, Warcaster and Valor Bard, so only Verbal commands are needed to cast:
1) Magic Action - Cast Spell (lets say Font of Moonlight, which is an Action, for the added damage per hit)
2) Action Surge - gain an Attack Action.
3) Action Surge - Sequence 1-3 above works since the Nick hasn't been used this round
4) Bonus Action - Non-spell slot ability (a spell slot was used already on 1) OR if the character has Duel Wielding, this can be an extra off-hand attack with the Scimitar. If the previous Short Sword attack did damage, this will be at advantage due to that weapon's Vex property.
SO, please provide feedback on the above. Does this work? Thanks
3) Extra attack with main hand weapon, ie Short Sword (I'm unsure if the extra attack must be taken immediately after the main Attack, or if it has to happen after the off-hand Nick attack, so if you know, please say so, thanks).
You can do them in any order you like within the same attack, as long as you've enabled the Nick attack, it can happen before or after the extra attack.
SO, please provide feedback on the above. Please do not introduce any other options (like Haste instead of Font of Moonlight lol). I want to confirm this before further complicating the options ;)
Keep in mind also that the Nick Mastery applies to the extra attack (of the Light Property), not the initial attack. So, it's the offhand Attack that must be "with Nick Mastery":
This is not actually defined in the rules. There are cases to be made either way. Barring official clarification or errata, this is an "ask your DM" matter.
(I do think that the offhand attack needing to be the one with the nick weapon is probably what they intended, but they didn't actually say it.)
Thanks. I want to post the text though that is relevant, as you say it is not defined. I actually read it wrong initially, so it is worth examining either way.
Light Property: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light Weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don't add the Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Nick: When you make the Extra Attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
I agree, I feel it needs to be the offhand weapon, but it's not specific. I'm leaning towards the more conservative interpretation, but I can see what you mean.
[...] I agree, I feel it needs to be the offhand weapon, but it's not specific. I'm leaning towards the more conservative interpretation, but I can see what you mean.
If you’re wielding a weapon and have learned its mastery property, you’ll be able to use that mastery property every turn when you make an attack with the weapon.
To explain the Nick property, we should briefly cover that being able to attack twice while dual-wielding Light weapons has subtly changed in the 2024 Player’s Handbook. Instead of being covered under Melee Attacks, the rules for dual-wielding Light weapons are covered under the Light weapon property.
It still functions the same way: When you make an attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can use a Bonus Action to make one attack with a different Light weapon you’re wielding.
The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t mean you can make a third attack as a Bonus Action, as the Light property specifies you only get one extra attack. But, while it may not pump your damage, this frees up your Bonus Action to use class/species abilities, such as the Rogue’s Cunning Action, while still getting an additional attack in.
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Here's the scenario. Your initial action, with a light weapon and the Nick mastery ability, can move your offhand weapon to attack along with your main hand during this action.
Lets say you didn't utilize this on your main action (either by switching in a Nick capable weapon, or by doing something else) and you Action surged. Do you gain the Nick ability as normal for the Action surged added Action? It's only once per turn, but it hasn't been used yet.
My wonder here is if you can cast a spell with your main action, action surge, use a Nick weapon (you have Mastery) and gain the benefit of the offhand attack.
My next question is how Action Surge affects Extra Attack. If you have an extra attack, can you get another one for the Action Surge action, or is it only one Attack for the Action Surge. The text in the 2024 PHB says you gain an Attack Action, so it would seem so, but I want to check and get some feedback.
Possible combos:
1) Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack. Action Surge - Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
2) Magic Action (Cast Spell). Bonus action (any that is legal given that a spell has been cast, adhering to the one leveled spell rule). Action Surge - Attack Action, Attack with Light weapon with Nick Mastery, offhand Attack.
Does this make sense? Thanks in advance
Action surge should be fine, you are still taking an "attack action". As such an Eldritch Knight could cast Thunder wave, then trigger action surge and take the attack action and activate nick. Not sure I would recommend two-weapon fighting for a fighter in 2024 tho, Fighter gets far more mileage from Great Weapon Master once at 3 attacks per action. If only playing to level 12, it's fine but anything past that... wouldn't recommend it since two-weapon fighting damage falls off a cliff in Tier 3, unless you're a Rogue.
As long as you take the Attack action and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as part of the Attack action, wether its your regular action or the additional action from Action Surge.
1) Extra Attack let you attack twice instead of once whenever you take the Attack action on your turn, wether its your regular action or the additional action from Action Surge.
2) This make sense.
Yes. The attack action you can take from action surge is no different from your regular attack action.
Correct. It's an attack action, so you get to use abilities that key off attack actions.
This doesn't work. If you're using Nick for an off-hand attack, then you only get to use the extra attack of the Light property once per turn.
If you're not using Nick, then you only have the one bonus action.
(And no, you can't take the bonus action attack on the first attack action, and use nick on the second -- you've already used the additional attack of the light property once on the turn)
This works.
Just as a technical point unconnected to the question at hand: The rule isn't "one leveled spell". It's "only one spell slot". Leveled spells you get from other sources are fair game.
To be able to attack with both the free Nick mastery property and a possible Bonus Action the same turn, you need the Dual Wielder feat.
Attack 1: Attack Action
Attack 2: Extra Attack
Attack 3: Nick Mastery
Attack 4: Dual Wielder
To avoid any confusion: the extra attack is unnecessary to make this work.
Keep in mind also that the Nick Mastery applies to the extra attack (of the Light Property), not the initial attack. So, it's the offhand Attack that must be "with Nick Mastery":
Attack Action --> Attack with Light weapon, offhand Attack with Nick Mastery.
Yeah it's not, i added it because OP referred to it.
Good clarification. I meant the Slot, but muscle memory from regular 5e. Thanks though.
You do NOT need Dual Weidler to make it work the way I asked about it. That feat gives an added Bonus action attack later in the round, which is on top of the sequence I was inquiring about, not a requirement. You only need Mastery to make this work, have the appropriate Light weapons and be 5th level class that gives the extra attack.
I did mix up the weapons that need to be in what hand, so I posted below an edit to the sequences I am inquiring about.
FYI, I never mentioned Dual Wielder for a reason. I'm aware that it gives another attack as a bonus, but it isn't required for this scenario. The character hasn't taken that feat yet (Warcaster was first to be able to cast while holding weapons in each hand, and for the Cha boost). I have added it in my post below, but please, don't introduce something new if I'm not asking about it. :)
Ok, so I re-read the Light and Nick rules. I see what you mean. Updated sequence as follows:
Fighter/Valor Bard equipped -Main hand Sword Sword (Vex), Off-Hand Scimiatar (Nick). Both weapons are Light. This character has extra attack due to sufficient level in either class. This character also has War Caster, so as a Valor Bard, the weapons count as Focus and the character can cast while having weapons in both hands.
Scenario 1: Maximum attacks
1)Attack Action: Short Sword in Main Hand (Vex - gives Adv next attack if you dealt damage)
2) As part of the Action, Attack with offhand Scimitar, due to the Scimitar being a Light weapon with the Nick property. This is done with Advantage if the main hand Attack with the Short Sword hits and does damage.
3) Extra attack with main hand weapon, ie Short Sword (I'm unsure if the extra attack must be taken immediately after the main Attack, or if it has to happen after the off-hand Nick attack, so if you know, please say so, thanks).
4) Action Surge - An added Attack Action. Nick has already happened this turn, so no added attack from that). Attack - Short Sword (Vex).
5) Extra Attack - advantage on this IF the Action Surge Short Sword attack hits, and if this attack hits, the next attack will be at advantage due to the Vex. There is not limit to the number of times Vex can work in a round, and it even extends to your next attack before the end of you following Turn.
6) IF this character also has Duel Wield feat, then the unused Bonus Action can also be an Attack with the offhand weapon, OR it can be used to cast a spell or ability that can be used via a Bonus Action. Example: Second Wind, or Bardic Inspiration, or a Bonus action spell)
Scenario 2. This character wants the main action to be a Spell and is relying on the Action Surge for the attack sequence.
Same combo of weapons and skills above, so no need to retype it. Remember, Warcaster and Valor Bard, so only Verbal commands are needed to cast:
1) Magic Action - Cast Spell (lets say Font of Moonlight, which is an Action, for the added damage per hit)
2) Action Surge - gain an Attack Action.
3) Action Surge - Sequence 1-3 above works since the Nick hasn't been used this round
4) Bonus Action - Non-spell slot ability (a spell slot was used already on 1) OR if the character has Duel Wielding, this can be an extra off-hand attack with the Scimitar. If the previous Short Sword attack did damage, this will be at advantage due to that weapon's Vex property.
SO, please provide feedback on the above. Does this work? Thanks
You can do them in any order you like within the same attack, as long as you've enabled the Nick attack, it can happen before or after the extra attack.
That is correct, with one minor caveat:
This is not actually defined in the rules. There are cases to be made either way. Barring official clarification or errata, this is an "ask your DM" matter.
(I do think that the offhand attack needing to be the one with the nick weapon is probably what they intended, but they didn't actually say it.)
Thanks. I want to post the text though that is relevant, as you say it is not defined. I actually read it wrong initially, so it is worth examining either way.
Light Property: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light Weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don't add your ability modifier to the extra attack's damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don't add the Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
Nick: When you make the Extra Attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
I agree, I feel it needs to be the offhand weapon, but it's not specific. I'm leaning towards the more conservative interpretation, but I can see what you mean.
And your feelings reflect common sense.
We don’t have an updated SAC yet, but we do have this article pre-release that clearly spells out the intention: Your Guide to Weapon Mastery in the 2024 Player's Handbook: