And that... is the problem with this news about Sigil, it was the last hope for a new frontier for D&D.
Is it a new frontier that you actually wanted? I can't say I wanted Sigil.
Sigil was never a new frontier; it was an accessory. At present, they aren't looking for new frontiers for D&D because they feel- and I agree- that the community at large is content with the 5e model. They're looking for new things to sell alongside 5.24. Would have been nice to have a 3D VTT that was already integrated with Beyond character sheets to try out, but it was hardly going to change the paradigm.
After doing the suggestion of messing around with Sigil for a couple of hours, I think I have an idea what they were going for, figured out how to do some of the things DnD shorts said wasn't there, and have an idea what they were trying to do (replicate an actual table top). Still haven't figured out how to adjust character stats or upload one of my characters off of beyond, but that may be a me problem. This is not, say a them problem.
to load in a character sheet or monster data click on a mini > click the portrait in the bottom left corner
for characters use the drop down menu (should be a list of your created characters from dndbeyond) for monsters use the "Load Monster Data" and choose the desired monster stats
Since the announcement of Sigil the doomsayers have been predicting its creation would be the doom of D&D. Sigil would turn the game into micro transactions and have Exclusive Subclasses and Content that would force people to use it. Now that Sigil is a "Failure" the doomsayers see it as a sign of the demise of D&D, without it there is no future for D&D. Seems like a damned if you do damned if you don't for WotC.
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Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
I don't think Sigil is the end for DDB anymore than I think it would save it, but I do think it is yet another step among many in a direction that DDB become less important in the world of D&D tools since Wizbro purchased the site.
Sigil is not currently and has never been a part of DDB, it's demise might even benefit DDB (it depends on whether Hasbro has given up on Sigil, or whether it's given up on competing in the VTT arena in general, because if they haven't given up on VTTs entirely, Maps is what's left).
personally think the issue is to many people (wotc and hasbro included) have to many outside influences (social media) which seem to be of the negative mindset (and we all know negativity gets alot more attention then positivity) and due to that wotc/hasbro makes changes in an attempt to appease the masses, then they get condemned for doing that
its like everyone is suddenly a dnd employee trying to steer the ship instead of just enjoying the ride... "to many cooks ruin the broth"
And that... is the problem with this news about Sigil, it was the last hope for a new frontier for D&D.
Is it a new frontier that you actually wanted? I can't say I wanted Sigil.
That is the thing about evolutions and revolutions; they are unpredictable and usually have unexpected effects and impact. They can change the way we think about gaming, game design, they can change how the business is run, open up new markets etc and expand the hobby in completely unexpected ways.
So the short answer is no, not really. It's not what I wanted, but then again, 3e and the OGL wasn't what I wanted either, but when I got it, it changed everything. I wanted it and didn't even know it. I didn't want 4e either, but it too had a huge impact on game design, on creators, on art design. These were all evolutions and that is kind of the thing about being a leader in an industry: you're on the forefront of defining what people want and that requires taking risks. Sure we can debate if a risk was successful or not, you can argue that 4e was a failure, but you can't argue that its a irrelevant part of D&D history, it had a massive impact on the entire RPG market. The fact that it was less successful doesn't actually matter.
I don't fault WotC for creating Sigil and trying something new, it was a big risk and maybe it wouldn't pan out and become economically successful, but Sigil was still a very relevant thing and I think the problem is that WotC is becoming risk-averse. They didn't take any risks with 2024 edition and now, instead of seeing Sigil through to see "hey can this work?" we are never going to find out because they decided to turtle and give up on. I think it's a mistake. These things take time and they should have committed themselves even if it leads to economic loss to finishing what they started and delivering what they promised. Then we might look at it in hindsight and argue about wether it was good or bad, but either way, it would become a part of defining D&D's history, its an evolutionary step that asks and answers questions, it would likely trigger creators, artists, and writers. Point is, it would have impact and relevance either way, and we would all find out together what it means for D&D as a franchise and as a business.
Right now it just feels like WotC only wants to be involved in things that are economically successful, which means they are no longer leading the industry and while it will take time, eventually, Wizards of the Coast will be like Blockbuster or Kodak. If your not willing to lead the business and take risks, you become irrelevant. People think that D&D is an eternal franchise, but its not, D&D is a concept, its a tradition and that concept and tradition will outlive the franchise. We still watch movies and take pictures; its just that instead of renting them from Blockbuster and printing them on film, we watch Netflix and take digital photos. It's the same with D&D..: People will always play D&D, it's just not going to be Wizards of the Coast official D&D if they don't keep up and lead the evolutions of the game.
If they don't lead, someone else will do it for them.
Since the announcement of Sigil the doomsayers have been predicting its creation would be the doom of D&D. Sigil would turn the game into micro transactions and have Exclusive Subclasses and Content that would force people to use it. Now that Sigil is a "Failure" the doomsayers see it as a sign of the demise of D&D, without it there is no future for D&D. Seems like a damned if you do damned if you don't for WotC.
You're misreading the situation. Debates, predictions, theorycrafting and public contemplation are a sign that what you are doing is relevant. The problem is that soon, people are going to stop talking about 2024 D&D and Sigil all together, its the silence and the irrelevance that will be the true killer of D&D. As long as we are debating it, for better or worse, it means its still relevant.
The Doomsayers, as you call them are an important part of the communities process, they aren't the bad guys in the story here. They are, passionate fans, sharing their opinions, predictions and theories keeping the conversation going, because D&D is not just a franchise; its a tradition and a community. You don't have to love "the current edition" to be an important part of the debate. Debate these doomsayers and then thank them for keeping D&D relevant because when they leave and the debate ends, that is when you will know D&D is truly dead.
If and when D&D die's as a game and as a franchise, it won't be with a big bang, it will be in a silent, irrelevant whimper. There won't be anyone around to care.
How much was WotC's shell, & how much was Hasbro & investors overriding WotC's shell?
A lot of this argument, & most arguments, depend on the idea that WotC is still independent of Hasbro central command.
I don't think they have a single bit of independence at this point, given the recent decisions. Most of it reeks of suits who don't know jack about how to design games, overriding game designers via mandates from the investors.
At this point, WotC is functionally a label, not a company. Much like Parker Brothers was before full assimilation.
& it''s time arguments updated to this reality.
I don't know that for a fact, but I don't doubt that this is the case, but that doesn't change the discussion or invalidate the points of the arguments here. The "why its happening" is kind of irrelevant; it only matters what is happening and what it means for the future of the game.
I'm just stopping by this thread to say this--Sigil was great. I'm extremely disappointed that they're killing it. Was it a finished product? No, but it was getting pretty close. It's weird to me that they went that far and then just stopped. I'm sure there was a small group [Redacted]that complained about it through the whole alpha and beta process but in reality, this VTT had so much potential to be amazing and game-changing for those gaming groups who play online.
Perhaps the thing I liked most about it, and the thing that I am most disappointed about losing, was the fact that it was going to cut my game prep wayyyyyyyy down. I typically play on Foundry and I like to have my VTT experience be pretty immersive for my players. So I put a lot of time into map prep, lighting, music, effects, etc. Sigil was so much more plug and play, even in its beta state. I assume the plan was to offer Sigil package at an extra cost when purchasing a DnD module through DnD Beyond. This package, I would have hoped, would have included all the maps and everything, ready to go as the module intends. This would have been amazing and would have cut my game prep by probably 60-70%. Personally, I would have paid $30-50 extra for a "Sigil package" add-on with a module, with the price dependent on how large the campaign is and how much content it comes with.
Again, just really disappointed about this and so are my players. As great as Foundry is, it can be extremely time-consuming to game prep the way I do and it can be kind of pain in the butt sometimes too. And as far as using Sigil in the state that it's in? I might try but not having premade module assets is kind of a deal breaker for me. Having to go in and make all that myself kind of defeats the purpose if I'm trying to save time.
Lastly, on the subject of saving time, I also just thought that Sigil, even in its current state, ran the game extremely smoothly and with much less hiccups than Foundry. The game moved quicker already, even with the bugs that still needed to be ironed out and the features that still needed to be added. It just had so much potential to be so much better than anything else we're using right now. [Redacted]
The last few posts here kind of illustrate just some of the problems that WotC has to find a solution for if they are going to continue with Sigil. This tool just doesn't have an audience; its very much a concept built for a part of the community that doesn't exist anywhere.
Now that doesn't mean they can't foster a community. Talespire has had minimal success, they have about 300 active users and that number has grown slowly but surely over time, but its a long, hard and very economically shaky road. Talespire manages to be reasonably successful but it has to do with the fact that they only have a couple of mouths to feed, so they don't need to be a huge economic success. These are indie developers making indie developer money.
The people making Sigil as a product have to accept that they are taking a risk, they are trying something pretty new and outside of the scope of normal and with that comes the potential for failure but also potential for a real evolution. We don't know what's going to happen until they produce something that actually works and people start exploring it.
We can theorycraft about it, but if you really want to know, you have to deliver.
I got the mail and did not claim the minis. Instead I came here to explain why I didn't claim the minis and don't currently plan on using Sigil. My group already has a VTT. I won't mention which one, but I will say that we use it because:
It supports more than just D&D, so the people in my group, including myself, don't need to find and learn a different VTT for every system we might want to run a game in (I run D&D, but am a player in a CoC and a Mutants & Masterminds campaign on the same VTT).
It offers additional features if you pay, but doesn't require payment to use and doesn't gate off the ability to use content we already own elsewhere in our game behind an additional payment. (Guess I just at least confirmed we're not using Fantasy Grounds).
It lets GMs and Players add their own tokens or other visuals and link them to character sheets and/or stat blocks.
It doesn't stubbornly override house rules, third-party or homebrew content. (This is our issue with D&D Beyond in general and D&DBeyond Maps in particular, and we get around that with the VTT.)
Now, the VTT we use also has disadvantages, the main ones being:
Visually it's very bare bones.(A consequence of being customisable)
Customising it can take a lot of effort and getting it to automate things that aren't offered as free templates requires either some amount of knowledge of coding or paying for non-free templates.
Because it's so customisable, it's not well-optimised. Using it requires a decent internet connection and a desktop computer.
In order for myself and the members of my group to consider using any other VTT, it would need to outperform the one we're currently using on at least some of those points. Now, Sigil will be meant for just D&D, so that's a point where it's already behind compared to what we use now. And it's built around using what's available on D&D Beyond as a framework for what content you can access in it, which means that it both inherits the issues present in D&D Beyond with regards to being hostile to homebrew and third party content outside the very limited scope of what D&D Beyond allows you to homebrew and the limited library of third party content D&D Beyond offers.
So all in all, we're not likely to use Sigil in any case, but what will definitely not change our minds is a bunch of pointless visual spectacle. The fact that it's 3D counts against it for how much more difficult it'd make adding custom tokens/minis, assuming that's even possible, which I'm going to guess it's not. The way that the e-mail offers free minis makes it very clear that, in general use, minis are going to require payment.
Honestly, the issue that most VTT developers run into is that they forget they're making a Virtual Table Top. What they're trying to compete with is, at its core, a bunch of people sitting around a table with a sheet of blank graphing paper and some pawns or meeples scavenged from a board game. Statistically speaking most groups don't use store-bought terrain or minis (though, of course, statistically speaking most don't use battle maps at all).
If you want to succeed making a VTT, you need to offer something that's somehow more attractive than that.
Got the email for the Sigil content, and I claimed it! Came here to say that my group is very excited for Sigil to continue development. We're running from DNDBeyond Maps for now, since its so good for tracking encounter initiative, stat blocks, and automating rolls. I'm VERY excited for Sigil to come out with a seamless way to share builds with the community, and download community builds.
Rumors are that Sigil is DOA. I agree that it had some serious potential to be beyond amazing, but the fact that it's only available to Windows users and that it takes FOREVER to load is already enough to drag it down. I hate to admit in, but Wizards dreamed up something amazing, over promised on performance and under funded the project. Could it have been the best? potentially. Will it though? Never.
Rumors are that Sigil is DOA. I agree that it had some serious potential to be beyond amazing, but the fact that it's only available to Windows users and that it takes FOREVER to load is already enough to drag it down. I hate to admit in, but Wizards dreamed up something amazing, over promised on performance and under funded the project. Could it have been the best? potentially. Will it though? Never.
Eh, I’d say it was always a long shot. A 3D terrain sounds nice, but doesn’t actually offer much practical value to typical play, and they’d be fighting the well established VTT sites. It might have made a modest cash cow, but frankly nothing it was slated to offer is truly revolutionary.
Rumors are that Sigil is DOA. I agree that it had some serious potential to be beyond amazing, but the fact that it's only available to Windows users and that it takes FOREVER to load is already enough to drag it down. I hate to admit in, but Wizards dreamed up something amazing, over promised on performance and under funded the project. Could it have been the best? potentially. Will it though? Never.
Eh, I’d say it was always a long shot. A 3D terrain sounds nice, but doesn’t actually offer much practical value to typical play, and they’d be fighting the well established VTT sites. It might have made a modest cash cow, but frankly nothing it was slated to offer is truly revolutionary.
If you could interact with the terrain, maybe. As is, there doesn't seem to be much different between a table in game and a sticker on a table top matt in meat space. Or if it took into account its in the computer, maybe show some flying/floating foes and allies doing that.
Overal If I had to guess, it needed another year to work out the bugs
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Sigil was never a new frontier; it was an accessory. At present, they aren't looking for new frontiers for D&D because they feel- and I agree- that the community at large is content with the 5e model. They're looking for new things to sell alongside 5.24. Would have been nice to have a 3D VTT that was already integrated with Beyond character sheets to try out, but it was hardly going to change the paradigm.
to load in a character sheet or monster data
click on a mini > click the portrait in the bottom left corner
for characters use the drop down menu (should be a list of your created characters from dndbeyond)
for monsters use the "Load Monster Data" and choose the desired monster stats
Since the announcement of Sigil the doomsayers have been predicting its creation would be the doom of D&D. Sigil would turn the game into micro transactions and have Exclusive Subclasses and Content that would force people to use it. Now that Sigil is a "Failure" the doomsayers see it as a sign of the demise of D&D, without it there is no future for D&D. Seems like a damned if you do damned if you don't for WotC.
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
Sigil is not currently and has never been a part of DDB, it's demise might even benefit DDB (it depends on whether Hasbro has given up on Sigil, or whether it's given up on competing in the VTT arena in general, because if they haven't given up on VTTs entirely, Maps is what's left).
personally think the issue is to many people (wotc and hasbro included) have to many outside influences (social media) which seem to be of the negative mindset (and we all know negativity gets alot more attention then positivity) and due to that wotc/hasbro makes changes in an attempt to appease the masses, then they get condemned for doing that
its like everyone is suddenly a dnd employee trying to steer the ship instead of just enjoying the ride...
"to many cooks ruin the broth"
That is the thing about evolutions and revolutions; they are unpredictable and usually have unexpected effects and impact. They can change the way we think about gaming, game design, they can change how the business is run, open up new markets etc and expand the hobby in completely unexpected ways.
So the short answer is no, not really. It's not what I wanted, but then again, 3e and the OGL wasn't what I wanted either, but when I got it, it changed everything. I wanted it and didn't even know it. I didn't want 4e either, but it too had a huge impact on game design, on creators, on art design. These were all evolutions and that is kind of the thing about being a leader in an industry: you're on the forefront of defining what people want and that requires taking risks. Sure we can debate if a risk was successful or not, you can argue that 4e was a failure, but you can't argue that its a irrelevant part of D&D history, it had a massive impact on the entire RPG market. The fact that it was less successful doesn't actually matter.
I don't fault WotC for creating Sigil and trying something new, it was a big risk and maybe it wouldn't pan out and become economically successful, but Sigil was still a very relevant thing and I think the problem is that WotC is becoming risk-averse. They didn't take any risks with 2024 edition and now, instead of seeing Sigil through to see "hey can this work?" we are never going to find out because they decided to turtle and give up on. I think it's a mistake. These things take time and they should have committed themselves even if it leads to economic loss to finishing what they started and delivering what they promised. Then we might look at it in hindsight and argue about wether it was good or bad, but either way, it would become a part of defining D&D's history, its an evolutionary step that asks and answers questions, it would likely trigger creators, artists, and writers. Point is, it would have impact and relevance either way, and we would all find out together what it means for D&D as a franchise and as a business.
Right now it just feels like WotC only wants to be involved in things that are economically successful, which means they are no longer leading the industry and while it will take time, eventually, Wizards of the Coast will be like Blockbuster or Kodak. If your not willing to lead the business and take risks, you become irrelevant. People think that D&D is an eternal franchise, but its not, D&D is a concept, its a tradition and that concept and tradition will outlive the franchise. We still watch movies and take pictures; its just that instead of renting them from Blockbuster and printing them on film, we watch Netflix and take digital photos. It's the same with D&D..: People will always play D&D, it's just not going to be Wizards of the Coast official D&D if they don't keep up and lead the evolutions of the game.
If they don't lead, someone else will do it for them.
You're misreading the situation. Debates, predictions, theorycrafting and public contemplation are a sign that what you are doing is relevant. The problem is that soon, people are going to stop talking about 2024 D&D and Sigil all together, its the silence and the irrelevance that will be the true killer of D&D. As long as we are debating it, for better or worse, it means its still relevant.
The Doomsayers, as you call them are an important part of the communities process, they aren't the bad guys in the story here. They are, passionate fans, sharing their opinions, predictions and theories keeping the conversation going, because D&D is not just a franchise; its a tradition and a community. You don't have to love "the current edition" to be an important part of the debate. Debate these doomsayers and then thank them for keeping D&D relevant because when they leave and the debate ends, that is when you will know D&D is truly dead.
If and when D&D die's as a game and as a franchise, it won't be with a big bang, it will be in a silent, irrelevant whimper. There won't be anyone around to care.
I don't know that for a fact, but I don't doubt that this is the case, but that doesn't change the discussion or invalidate the points of the arguments here. The "why its happening" is kind of irrelevant; it only matters what is happening and what it means for the future of the game.
I'm just stopping by this thread to say this--Sigil was great. I'm extremely disappointed that they're killing it. Was it a finished product? No, but it was getting pretty close. It's weird to me that they went that far and then just stopped. I'm sure there was a small group [Redacted] that complained about it through the whole alpha and beta process but in reality, this VTT had so much potential to be amazing and game-changing for those gaming groups who play online.
Perhaps the thing I liked most about it, and the thing that I am most disappointed about losing, was the fact that it was going to cut my game prep wayyyyyyyy down. I typically play on Foundry and I like to have my VTT experience be pretty immersive for my players. So I put a lot of time into map prep, lighting, music, effects, etc. Sigil was so much more plug and play, even in its beta state. I assume the plan was to offer Sigil package at an extra cost when purchasing a DnD module through DnD Beyond. This package, I would have hoped, would have included all the maps and everything, ready to go as the module intends. This would have been amazing and would have cut my game prep by probably 60-70%. Personally, I would have paid $30-50 extra for a "Sigil package" add-on with a module, with the price dependent on how large the campaign is and how much content it comes with.
Again, just really disappointed about this and so are my players. As great as Foundry is, it can be extremely time-consuming to game prep the way I do and it can be kind of pain in the butt sometimes too. And as far as using Sigil in the state that it's in? I might try but not having premade module assets is kind of a deal breaker for me. Having to go in and make all that myself kind of defeats the purpose if I'm trying to save time.
Lastly, on the subject of saving time, I also just thought that Sigil, even in its current state, ran the game extremely smoothly and with much less hiccups than Foundry. The game moved quicker already, even with the bugs that still needed to be ironed out and the features that still needed to be added. It just had so much potential to be so much better than anything else we're using right now. [Redacted]
So as far as we know, that's completely false and they're not killing it.
So here's a weird thing - I just got an email inviting me to claim minis for Sigil. Anyone else get that email?
I don't currently use a vtt, but I claimed them just in case, because you never know what the future may hold.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I claimed the minis just in case, but I can’t run Sigil. I and at least half of my table is on macOS.
Eeeewwww mac :p
Kidding aside hopefully they will show Mac some love and support soon
The last few posts here kind of illustrate just some of the problems that WotC has to find a solution for if they are going to continue with Sigil. This tool just doesn't have an audience; its very much a concept built for a part of the community that doesn't exist anywhere.
Now that doesn't mean they can't foster a community. Talespire has had minimal success, they have about 300 active users and that number has grown slowly but surely over time, but its a long, hard and very economically shaky road. Talespire manages to be reasonably successful but it has to do with the fact that they only have a couple of mouths to feed, so they don't need to be a huge economic success. These are indie developers making indie developer money.
The people making Sigil as a product have to accept that they are taking a risk, they are trying something pretty new and outside of the scope of normal and with that comes the potential for failure but also potential for a real evolution. We don't know what's going to happen until they produce something that actually works and people start exploring it.
We can theorycraft about it, but if you really want to know, you have to deliver.
I got the mail and did not claim the minis. Instead I came here to explain why I didn't claim the minis and don't currently plan on using Sigil.
My group already has a VTT. I won't mention which one, but I will say that we use it because:
In order for myself and the members of my group to consider using any other VTT, it would need to outperform the one we're currently using on at least some of those points. Now, Sigil will be meant for just D&D, so that's a point where it's already behind compared to what we use now.
And it's built around using what's available on D&D Beyond as a framework for what content you can access in it, which means that it both inherits the issues present in D&D Beyond with regards to being hostile to homebrew and third party content outside the very limited scope of what D&D Beyond allows you to homebrew and the limited library of third party content D&D Beyond offers.
So all in all, we're not likely to use Sigil in any case, but what will definitely not change our minds is a bunch of pointless visual spectacle. The fact that it's 3D counts against it for how much more difficult it'd make adding custom tokens/minis, assuming that's even possible, which I'm going to guess it's not.
The way that the e-mail offers free minis makes it very clear that, in general use, minis are going to require payment.
Honestly, the issue that most VTT developers run into is that they forget they're making a Virtual Table Top. What they're trying to compete with is, at its core, a bunch of people sitting around a table with a sheet of blank graphing paper and some pawns or meeples scavenged from a board game. Statistically speaking most groups don't use store-bought terrain or minis (though, of course, statistically speaking most don't use battle maps at all).
If you want to succeed making a VTT, you need to offer something that's somehow more attractive than that.
Got the email for the Sigil content, and I claimed it! Came here to say that my group is very excited for Sigil to continue development. We're running from DNDBeyond Maps for now, since its so good for tracking encounter initiative, stat blocks, and automating rolls. I'm VERY excited for Sigil to come out with a seamless way to share builds with the community, and download community builds.
Rumors are that Sigil is DOA. I agree that it had some serious potential to be beyond amazing, but the fact that it's only available to Windows users and that it takes FOREVER to load is already enough to drag it down. I hate to admit in, but Wizards dreamed up something amazing, over promised on performance and under funded the project. Could it have been the best? potentially. Will it though? Never.
Eh, I’d say it was always a long shot. A 3D terrain sounds nice, but doesn’t actually offer much practical value to typical play, and they’d be fighting the well established VTT sites. It might have made a modest cash cow, but frankly nothing it was slated to offer is truly revolutionary.
If you could interact with the terrain, maybe. As is, there doesn't seem to be much different between a table in game and a sticker on a table top matt in meat space. Or if it took into account its in the computer, maybe show some flying/floating foes and allies doing that.
Overal If I had to guess, it needed another year to work out the bugs