I understand that having more attacks if a Fighter thing. However, there is a pretty big gap between the 2 Attacks that Rangers and Barbs cap out at and the 4 that the Fighter can get as their Capstone.
Why didn't the Devs grant Rangers and Barbs a 3rd attack somewhere after the Fighter gets their 3rd at level 11?
Some Rangers can gain a third attack from their subclass (eg Drakewarden) and can augment their damage with spells (especially Hunter’s Mark). Paladins also use spells (especially Smites) to boost their damage output), whereas Barbarians have Rage and Reckless Attack.
Because the Barbarian already outdamages the fighter. And the ranger is not allowed to be good has Spellcasting.
The barbarian only really outdamages the fighter before the third attack comes into play; if you make realistic assumptions about magic items and combat duration it's going to fall behind in tier 3. Let's take a look at level 12. We'll assume great weapon mastery, berserker barbarian vs champion fighter (not even the best fighter), AC 17 target, great weapon mastery, using a +2 greatsword. The berserker is assumed to rage in round 1, and use reckless attack/brutal strike; both have strength 20.
Berserker: +11 to hit (str +5, PB +4, weapon +2), 2d6+1d10+5(str)+2(weapon)+3(rage)+4(GWM) = 26.5 per hit; 75% hit chance, 1.5 hits per round for 39.75, 0.1 crits per round for +0.125, 0.5 misses per round for +2.5, total 42.375. Frenzy is a 93.75% to apply and a 6.25% chance to crit, for an added 10.5. Final total 52.875. After the first round, using your bonus action for a cleave from great weapon mastery (9.75% chance; does only 22.5 per hit) adds 1.828 dpr, getting us to 54.73.
Fighter: +11 to hit (str +5, PB +4, weapon +2), 2d6+11 = 18 per hit. Great weapon fighting adds +1 (it's not a great mastery, but we have two masteries). 75% hit chance, 2.25 hits per round for 42.75, 0.3 crits per round for +2.4, total 45.15. We have a 58% chance per round to miss once, in which case we can use heroic warrior to reroll; this is an additional 8.72 dpr, getting us to 53.87. Graze is adding another 0.94 dpr (54.81). We have a 31.3% chance to get at least one critical (27.1% if we ignore heroic warrior); cleave does 15 on a hit (average is 13.2) for another 4.13 dpr, getting us to a final value of 58.94. Finally, action surge, depending on how strategic you are about using it (i.e. did you already use inspiration, did you already cleave) ranges from +46 to +58 damage, divided up between however many rounds of combat you have before a short rest -- given that either character will solo kill a CR 12 in three rounds, and you probably don't have encounters with one CR 12 per PC multiple times per short rest, a realistic estimate is around 4 rounds and real DPR is around 70.
If you swap the +2 sword for a flame tongue, the fighter pulls significantly further ahead. Note that a +2 weapon is entirely routine for level 12, per the rules for starting at higher levels.
My biggest theory considering the difference is that the chance of missing with 100% of your attacks is much higher with only 2 attacks vs 3 or more. The Paladin can compensate for this by using Smites on the attacks that do hit but the Barb has HWM (which grants a flat damage buff) and Brutal Crit (only IF they crit). Many of the Ranger's damage bonuses are linked to a spell which can be lost when they take damage. Also, a shooting Ranger no longer has the Sharpshooter damage buff.
I think it's been answered fairly well, but to add to this. While Barbarians have a cap on attacks, and their ability to gain advantage every turn, and their ability to add damage on crits, and some subclasses which have bonus effects which increase control and damage. Barbarians also tend to calculate as one of the highest damage dealers in melee...in melee, some casters can get stupid high damage output.
The fact is, fighters do OK damage with 4 attacks unless they use specific builds, while a 20 level Barbarian goes nuts will most subclasses, a 20 level fighter has to still play the right subclass to even come close to keeping up with Barbarian numbers. Seriously advantage every turn really makes a difference.
As to rangers, they suffer because of casting, which is bad because their spell choices are not the best generally, and their key ability is concentration, so they have to choose to use Hunters mark or something else. ranger has a lot of pain points that keep the class from preforming it's best. If you want the hunter with a ranged weapon playstyle go fighter with a ranged weapon. Eldritch Knight with archery is still the best ranger IMO.
The fact is, fighters do OK damage with 4 attacks unless they use specific builds, while a 20 level Barbarian goes nuts will most subclasses, a 20 level fighter has to still play the right subclass to even come close to keeping up with Barbarian numbers. Seriously advantage every turn really makes a difference.
My demonstration was a Champion, not generally considered a big power subclass (also, 2024 rules, not 2014 rules). Advantage isn't that impressive in tier 3-4 -- with typical gear, monster AC does not scale as fast as attack bonuses so you tend to have a base hit probability of 80% or so, pushing that to 96% is only a 20% increase.
"No, the difference is mostly that the more times you roll damage, the more a per-attack damage bonus adds."
Not true. The more times you HIT, the more a per-attack damage bonus adds. A damage bonus of +10 is the same as +0 if you miss. Having more attacks gives you a better chance of hitting at least once.
"My demonstration was a Champion, not generally considered a big power subclass (also, 2024 rules, not 2014 rules). Advantage isn't that impressive in tier 3-4 -- with typical gear, monster AC does not scale as fast as attack bonuses so you tend to have a base hit probability of 80% or so, pushing that to 96% is only a 20% increase."
I'm in a game right now where we've reached level 20 and I can testify that Advantage is not that meaningful. Hell, my character has a +14 to hit as an Artificer and I often hit even if I have Disadvantage!
The fact is, fighters do OK damage with 4 attacks unless they use specific builds, while a 20 level Barbarian goes nuts will most subclasses, a 20 level fighter has to still play the right subclass to even come close to keeping up with Barbarian numbers. Seriously advantage every turn really makes a difference.
My demonstration was a Champion, not generally considered a big power subclass (also, 2024 rules, not 2014 rules). Advantage isn't that impressive in tier 3-4 -- with typical gear, monster AC does not scale as fast as attack bonuses so you tend to have a base hit probability of 80% or so, pushing that to 96% is only a 20% increase.
Advantage increases hit probability by a lot, and it increases the chances of a critical by a lot. You math does not include the right numbers for this.
Advantage increases hit probability by a lot, and it increases the chances of a critical by a lot. You math does not include the right numbers for this.
Yes it does. Advantage, on a base hit probability of 75% and base crit probability of 5%, increases hit probability to 93.75% and crit probability to 9.75%. The reason you don't see it in my math above is because I'm using Brutal Attack, which removes advantage. On checking, the case for actually using brutal is marginal (sigh.. D&D team, why must you be so bad at math), so redoing it without brutal
Berserker: +11 to hit (str +5, PB +4, weapon +2), 2d6+5(str)+2(weapon)+3(rage)+4(GWM) = 21 per hit; 93.75% hit chance, 1.875 hits per round for 39.375, 0.195 crits per round for +1.365 dpr, 0.125 misses per round for +0.625, total 41.365. Frenzy is a 99.61% to apply and a 10.36% chance to crit, for an added 11.547. Final total 52.922. After the first round, using your bonus action for a cleave from great weapon mastery (18.55% chance; does only 17 per hit, including all modifiers expected damage is 16.93) adds 3.14 dpr, getting us to 56.96.
I understand that having more attacks if a Fighter thing. However, there is a pretty big gap between the 2 Attacks that Rangers and Barbs cap out at and the 4 that the Fighter can get as their Capstone.
Why didn't the Devs grant Rangers and Barbs a 3rd attack somewhere after the Fighter gets their 3rd at level 11?
Because the Barbarian already outdamages the fighter. And the ranger
is not allowed to be goodhas Spellcasting.Some Rangers can gain a third attack from their subclass (eg Drakewarden) and can augment their damage with spells (especially Hunter’s Mark). Paladins also use spells (especially Smites) to boost their damage output), whereas Barbarians have Rage and Reckless Attack.
Most Rangers also get a bonus damage rider to their weapon attacks from their subclass.
Fair points, all. Thanks.
The barbarian only really outdamages the fighter before the third attack comes into play; if you make realistic assumptions about magic items and combat duration it's going to fall behind in tier 3. Let's take a look at level 12. We'll assume great weapon mastery, berserker barbarian vs champion fighter (not even the best fighter), AC 17 target, great weapon mastery, using a +2 greatsword. The berserker is assumed to rage in round 1, and use reckless attack/brutal strike; both have strength 20.
If you swap the +2 sword for a flame tongue, the fighter pulls significantly further ahead. Note that a +2 weapon is entirely routine for level 12, per the rules for starting at higher levels.
My biggest theory considering the difference is that the chance of missing with 100% of your attacks is much higher with only 2 attacks vs 3 or more. The Paladin can compensate for this by using Smites on the attacks that do hit but the Barb has HWM (which grants a flat damage buff) and Brutal Crit (only IF they crit). Many of the Ranger's damage bonuses are linked to a spell which can be lost when they take damage. Also, a shooting Ranger no longer has the Sharpshooter damage buff.
I think it's been answered fairly well, but to add to this. While Barbarians have a cap on attacks, and their ability to gain advantage every turn, and their ability to add damage on crits, and some subclasses which have bonus effects which increase control and damage. Barbarians also tend to calculate as one of the highest damage dealers in melee...in melee, some casters can get stupid high damage output.
The fact is, fighters do OK damage with 4 attacks unless they use specific builds, while a 20 level Barbarian goes nuts will most subclasses, a 20 level fighter has to still play the right subclass to even come close to keeping up with Barbarian numbers. Seriously advantage every turn really makes a difference.
As to rangers, they suffer because of casting, which is bad because their spell choices are not the best generally, and their key ability is concentration, so they have to choose to use Hunters mark or something else. ranger has a lot of pain points that keep the class from preforming it's best. If you want the hunter with a ranged weapon playstyle go fighter with a ranged weapon. Eldritch Knight with archery is still the best ranger IMO.
No, the difference is mostly that the more times you roll damage, the more a per-attack damage bonus adds.
My demonstration was a Champion, not generally considered a big power subclass (also, 2024 rules, not 2014 rules). Advantage isn't that impressive in tier 3-4 -- with typical gear, monster AC does not scale as fast as attack bonuses so you tend to have a base hit probability of 80% or so, pushing that to 96% is only a 20% increase.
Advantage increases hit probability by a lot, and it increases the chances of a critical by a lot. You math does not include the right numbers for this.
https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2014/07/12/dnd-5e-advantage-disadvantage-probability/
edit: one of the early busted combos involved berserker with champion btw. granted as later books got published other builds took off.
Yes it does. Advantage, on a base hit probability of 75% and base crit probability of 5%, increases hit probability to 93.75% and crit probability to 9.75%. The reason you don't see it in my math above is because I'm using Brutal Attack, which removes advantage. On checking, the case for actually using brutal is marginal (sigh.. D&D team, why must you be so bad at math), so redoing it without brutal
It is possible for a Level 12 warlock to have three (3) attacks during an Action.
First, have the invocation Pact of the Blade.
Second, have the invocation Thirsting Blade.
Third, have the invocation Devouring Blade.
Then, conjure a Great Sword capable of doing Slashing and Radiant damage and then hope that the cleric keeps the warlock healed during the fight.