I'm not sure I agree with some of the comments about Warlocks.
An invocation at first level and three invocations at second level is good. Lessons of the First Ones is very useful early. Pact invocations not being restricted from one another is good. Devouring Blade later granting an additional attack is good. Magical Cunning to recover a pact slot or two is a solid improvement. Adding patron spells to the prepared spells instead of just options to possibly select is another improvement. A free casting of Contact Other Plane with no failure consequence is thematic and another benefit. Warlocks can now use rituals without taking a feat if they select those spells.
They still have a lot of at-will capability, and pact magic thrives when the campaign content has easier access to short rests such as in towns and wilderness, and they still get access to higher level spells at the same rate as full caster progression.
I think there were plenty of updates and improvements to the Warlock class going into 2024 from 2014.
The thing is, my list will be different to everybody else's, and that isn't to say either I or those other people are wrong either since it's all subjective and opinion based. The best you can do for this is polls on these forums.
I think the only difference I'd go with your ranking is Warlock 11, and move both Rogue and Monk up 1. Rogue being king of DPS and king of the Expertise skills makes them more useful than the Warlock imo. But agree, that is pretty much all they have, but being king of them pushes them up. But honestly not against your ranking, and one of the best summaries of the classes after the 2024 out there.
Well, the main problem is that there will always be a little bias, no matter what. You are probably right about the monk, it should be lower. However, they are still pretty powerful, and should be at least top 4. But, while i see your points, I still think wizard is below bard and sorcerer, especially at high levels. I do think though, that your ranking of the lower tiers are more reasonable than mine, because I dm more often than I play.
R3sistence's summary is the best summary of the classes and rankings I've seen. I'm still baffled at your Warlock #1 ranking when its a bottom tier class, only better than Ranger imo. Massively limited spells and casting compared to the other three and you put it at #1. We've got a Warlock in out party. And he runs out of spells all the time. And at that point just becomes and Eldritch Blast puppet. The subclass gimmicks are just that, gimmicks that are very limited. Sorcerer, Cleric, Wizard are the top 3 classes BY FAR in utility and power. With Cleric and Wizard only separated by Wizards spell diversity. Put a Cleric or Wizard in my hands and I'll 'can' dominate every encounter (IF that is what I was looking to do, which I'm not, that's not my playstyle). Clerics have an amazing ability to neutralize so many monsters (NPC's) abilities, counter debuff, grant debuff immunity. And wizards are the swiss army knife of classes, and still are amazing at dishing damage.
I'd like to hear your arguments why you think it ranks so high despite is severe limitations.
As people see, this list is not based on power or optimization, but about how interesting it would be to play the class for me.
Why not a power optimized list then too? The OP's list really was a personal preference list, but a list of which were arguably better and how the improved or worsened, albeit flawed. That is a fairly object list compared to person preferences.
I'm not sure I agree with some of the comments about Warlocks.
An invocation at first level and three invocations at second level is good. Lessons of the First Ones is very useful early. Pact invocations not being restricted from one another is good. Devouring Blade later granting an additional attack is good. Magical Cunning to recover a pact slot or two is a solid improvement. Adding patron spells to the prepared spells instead of just options to possibly select is another improvement. A free casting of Contact Other Plane with no failure consequence is thematic and another benefit. Warlocks can now use rituals without taking a feat if they select those spells.
They still have a lot of at-will capability, and pact magic thrives when the campaign content has easier access to short rests such as in towns and wilderness, and they still get access to higher level spells at the same rate as full caster progression.
I think there were plenty of updates and improvements to the Warlock class going into 2024 from 2014.
Sure it had a lot of quality of life improvements, and as i have said it is still my favorite class. But the core of the class was sustainable single target DPR either through pact of the blade or eldritch blast. The changes in the game have made it so it is no longer a contributor in those fields either because its defense sucks for blade pact or its damage just sucks for cantrip spam. And their express design where they limited their casting severely was because they were supposed to be solid contributors in that arena.
Now they have some solid gimmicks a GOOs silent and remote casting through a imp at level 5, how ridic OP a imp is at levels 1-3 etc. 1 extra spell a day through a 1 minute ritual is cool and is a boost a 3rd attack on pact is a boost(though it makes it a bit of a invocation hog just to do your core role of sustained DPR, which you will still fail at due to lack of defense), but for the most part their boosts are more quality of life based than substance based.
I'm not sure I agree with some of the comments about Warlocks.
An invocation at first level and three invocations at second level is good. Lessons of the First Ones is very useful early. Pact invocations not being restricted from one another is good. Devouring Blade later granting an additional attack is good. Magical Cunning to recover a pact slot or two is a solid improvement. Adding patron spells to the prepared spells instead of just options to possibly select is another improvement. A free casting of Contact Other Plane with no failure consequence is thematic and another benefit. Warlocks can now use rituals without taking a feat if they select those spells.
They still have a lot of at-will capability, and pact magic thrives when the campaign content has easier access to short rests such as in towns and wilderness, and they still get access to higher level spells at the same rate as full caster progression.
I think there were plenty of updates and improvements to the Warlock class going into 2024 from 2014.
Sure it had a lot of quality of life improvements, and as i have said it is still my favorite class. But the core of the class was sustainable single target DPR either through pact of the blade or eldritch blast. The changes in the game have made it so it is no longer a contributor in those fields either because its defense sucks for blade pact or its damage just sucks for cantrip spam. And their express design where they limited their casting severely was because they were supposed to be solid contributors in that arena.
More invocations with more versatility in those invocations is more than a QoL improvement. I question how you are determining the baseline and intent on the target DPR in your assumptions on what "a contributor in those fields" contributes.
Your concerns are damage and durability. This is not a concern I share, but here's a rough idea...
Class: Warlock, obviously.
Cantrips -- mage hand, minor illusion
Spells -- armor of agathys, hex
Invocations -- pact of the blade; typically use a greatsword but note that you can conjure a melee weapon with the thrown property if needed with a bonus action
Background: Entertainer. This is for CHA and DEX, and the musician feat is useful.
Species: Goliath (Stone). This is for the damage reduction feature.
Ability Scores (based on standard array):
8 STR
16 DEX
13 CON
10 INT
12 WIS
16 CHA
Seems useful enough. At second level add...
Spell: charm person
Invocations: fiendish vigor, lessons of the first ones (lucky feat). These add to the defensiveness by way of a lot of temp hp through a day and some dice manipulation.
At 3rd level go with the fiend patron. This is another source of temp hp that doesn't require wasting an action, and can also be granted when allies drop enemies nearby. Also add misty step for some utility or possible escape if needed.
The general direction is weapon attacks for damage so there aren't going to be that many actions for spells so spells can be long term use or situational spells outside of combat, and avoid concentration spells if possible. This means those pact magic slots last because they aren't needed for combat, but the fiend patron does have some combat spells for just in case. A lot of temp hp keeps the character from dying.
At fifth level thirsting blade is a must. Eldritch smite is an option for some burst damage a bit more paladin style for the other invocation, but a person could consider devil's sight to pair with the darkness spell by then. Darkness helps with both offense and defense that way as long as the party can deal with possible impacts.
I'm not seeing that lack of ability to contribute effectively. Weapon use is one way. SLA's is the other on a more caster oriented warlock.
As people see, this list is not based on power or optimization, but about how interesting it would be to play the class for me.
Why not a power optimized list then too? The OP's list really was a personal preference list, but a list of which were arguably better and how the improved or worsened, albeit flawed. That is a fairly object list compared to person preferences.
Because power optimization is pointless in D&D for the most part, just look at treantmonks damage comparison, most classes are very close to each other. There is no value in the game or the story for having a wizard or cleric in it, while a ranger or warlock has so much more interesting choices.
It was pretty obvious that Sorcerer subclasses weren't adding much damage, but I'm surprised how much fighter subclasses underperform when it comes to damage when you compare the rankings here. I'd be interested to take another look at the exact numbers to see how significant that is https://19216801****/https://routerlogin.uno/ .
It was pretty obvious that Sorcerer subclasses weren't adding much damage, but I'm surprised how much fighter subclasses underperform when it comes to damage when you compare the rankings here. I'd be interested to take another look at the exact numbers to see how significant that is.
I'm pretty sure Treantmonk was using a pretty high number of rounds of combat per rest, which makes a large difference for classes with consumable resources (such as fighters with action surge).
I was looking for a ranking of all 2024 D&D classes, but I couldn't find any good ones. All of them were either biased or obviously ai generated. Now, I'm trying to make one, and need help doing it. Currently, my list is:
12: ranger, they got nerfed, and already sucked beforehand. Sorry, ranger mains.
11: paladin, they're just kinda like a worse cleric.
10: barbarian, the buffs are mid.
9: fighter, because they are good at combat and nothing else
8: druid, they got buffed but aren't great.
7:Rogue. The creators of d&d actually said that rogue is the weakest, but weapon mastery and cunning strike are really good
6 Cleric, it didn't get buffed at all really, and even got nerfed a tad bit
5: wizard, they're just a solid class overall.
4: bard. Remember how bards used to be able to be tanks, shock attackers, support, or spellcasters? Well now, they can do all 4 simultaneously.
3: sorcerer, they fixed the "not enough spells" problem, and are super versatile with spells.
2: monk, they probably got buffed the most because they were trash in 2014 rules. Now have much more damage output, and have less situational abilities.
1: hands down, warlock wins. I think this one is unanimous, they are almost on par with the 2014 twilight cleric.
These are mainly based on combat and roleplay, but also partially on how fun they are to play.
So, tell me what you think, and what you would change.
Sorry but this is just a terrible list.
Ranger is great Tier 1, okay tier 2, falls off a bit in tier 3 and 4 but it's still quiet viable, it just requires a mindset switch from pure martial focus to using more subclass features and ranger spells.
Paladin has issues yet might be the best class in the game right now, Divine Smite got nerfed but if you look past Divine Smite, or just entirely forget about Divine Smite all together, the rest of what Paladin has makes it one of the most solid classes in the game, it is the only class in the game with a dedicated healing resource, some archetypes/subclasses might have such resources but Paladin has it at the class level. Paladin has some of the best damage output in the game and is basically the best "tank", only rivalled by Barbarian. Then on top of this Paladin is a functional party face with their high charisma and let's not forget about the 2nd best feature in the game, Aura of Protection (spellcasting is the best and Paladin has that too)
Barbarian still does what it does the best, going out in a rage makes it unique and really the only other class that can be as reckless is Paladin but it's still a greater risk for Paladin to just recklessly delve straight into the front lines. Ultimately barbarian acts as a barrier between hostiles and ranged/casters better than anybody else.
Fighter are indeed combat orientated but I feel this take ignores the buffs that Fighter did get by being able to expend second wind charges to say, buff their stealth using tactical mind. Fighter is now able to do more outside of combat compared to what it use to be able too.
Druid... Druid I feel got rebalanced, unfortunately Circle of the Moon no longer dominates to a point where it pushes as being one of the best subclasses anymore. Ultimately I do think Druid is perhaps not as good as it should be but Circle of the Land and other subclass choices are now more viable and better than they use to be.
Rogue is still the weakest combat class, one on one, sneak attack is now possible in one-on-one situations but this was never a strength of rogue, their utility does make them almost irreplacable... if Ranger and Bard didn't exist but Ranger and Bard do exist and so rogue is in my opinion a class you won't actually miss if you don't have one.
Cleric's "nerf" is that it no longer multiclasses too well due to level 1 archetype/subclass choices, overall cleric is not that much different.
Wizard does a lot of things well still but overall it stands out less than it did in 2024, changes in how rituals work means they are more open to other classes and notably sorcerer (it's main rival in the arcane caster department) now gets more spells too. Overall I don't think Wizard is as high a ranking as it use to be, still the best class for utility due to how they learn spells and cast rituals tho.
Bards tank? I wouldn't risk it and bard has one of the worst DPR of all classes, they are a support spellcaster and that is still the case. Some subclasses can do slightly better at some things. Bards are very helpful but anybody looking at them as tanks or DPR classes, they aren't.
Sorcerer is improved and a better blaster than Wizard, I still don't know if I'd rank Sorcerer above Wizard. While sorcerer has infringed more on to Wizard, I think Wizard is still technically slightly ahead.
Monk might be the most improved but I still wouldn't say they are top tier, they just aren't the obvious last place anymore.
Warlock as best? Nope, hard disagree. Warlock is good but the best? definitely not.
If I had to, and I mean HAD TO. Rate the classes I would probably go:
12 Ranger - the switch in play style between tier 2-3 to stay relevant and counter-intuitive design of the class (too much on hunter's mark). This is only placement I agree with but for different reasons.
11 Rogue - they are still too hyper specialised, their damage is good and they fulfil a good role but a Ranger or Bard can actually potentially do the role just as well, if not better in some cases (pass without trace, whole party, can potentially pass stealth checks). Rogue just exists as the highest DPR choice of the three classes, oddly.
10 Monk - They are combat improved, social? not at all, all criticisms about how Fighter is useless outside of combat, is basically true of Monk but no longer true of fighter.
9 Warlock - class design is even more open to be customised and now all subclasses/archetypes feel more viable, however they are still mostly a highly limited class with only 2 slots for half the game and a reliance on cantrips. High charisma does help in social situations and the sheer scale of customisation is good, the ability to be more martial based does potentially mean warlock can be considered higher on the list.
8 Druid - I don't think the class got as much TLC as it deserves, the class is still a bit lack luster in terms of features but better than 2014 which was terrifyingly lacking in decent features.
7 Paladin - the class might deserve to be higher but I rated down Ranger for counter-intuitive design and Paladin is almost as bad as ranger on that front. Paladin would be higher if not for that (too much on divine smite, why have a feature for find steed?). Divine smite is now trash tier but changes to subclasses and the ability to use spell slots on different spells means that doesn't affect paladin as badly as initially thought, some smite spells are in fact more usable too, more for their secondary effects than the damage. Shining smite negating invisibility is insane in those few situations where it comes up.
6 Barbarian - Barbarian is better designed for later tiers of play, it is no longer dominated by totem/wild heart and berserker is no longer a trash subclass.
5 Bard - Bard is still one of the best support classes, that can heal and perform other jobs, it's strongest in later tiers due to magical secrets massively expanding their potential spell list.
4 fighter - if it were a list based solely on combat fighter would be number 1, but social and utility matter, fighter is better in these areas but still lacking compared to other classes. Fighter might not win in 1-on-1 situations against casters but there are builds which do better now and mostly this list is focused on party-vs mobs, not pvp.
3 sorcerer - much improved but still loses out on utility when compared to Wizard.
2 Cleric - Cleric never needed a buff because it was already very strong, but cleric DID get buffed in a few areas, more so guidance is now adapted to how tables generally played it and that makes it insanely good as a social buffer while still being a strong battlefield class, they now can get heavy armour without having to be a certain archetype/subclass. The few nerfs that did come in were needed, spirit guardians + spiritual weapon was always broken but still remains possible as a war cleric. There are now tactics where clerics can near wipe entire dungeons in a few turns but I am disregarding this for the comparison, they are however still a highly functional class that can stand in most of the battlefield and be functional. Also bless should never be underestimated as a spell.
1 Wizard - sorry, but I feel that Wizard was one of the best classes in 2014 and while not massively improved in 2024, they are still a head with their versatility with rituals and how many spells they can actually achieve via spellbooks.
The thing is, my list will be different to everybody else's, and that isn't to say either I or those other people are wrong either since it's all subjective and opinion based. The best you can do for this is polls on these forums.
This, just switch fighter with palys in the ranks, great arguments.
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I'm not sure I agree with some of the comments about Warlocks.
An invocation at first level and three invocations at second level is good. Lessons of the First Ones is very useful early. Pact invocations not being restricted from one another is good. Devouring Blade later granting an additional attack is good. Magical Cunning to recover a pact slot or two is a solid improvement. Adding patron spells to the prepared spells instead of just options to possibly select is another improvement. A free casting of Contact Other Plane with no failure consequence is thematic and another benefit. Warlocks can now use rituals without taking a feat if they select those spells.
They still have a lot of at-will capability, and pact magic thrives when the campaign content has easier access to short rests such as in towns and wilderness, and they still get access to higher level spells at the same rate as full caster progression.
I think there were plenty of updates and improvements to the Warlock class going into 2024 from 2014.
I think the only difference I'd go with your ranking is Warlock 11, and move both Rogue and Monk up 1. Rogue being king of DPS and king of the Expertise skills makes them more useful than the Warlock imo. But agree, that is pretty much all they have, but being king of them pushes them up. But honestly not against your ranking, and one of the best summaries of the classes after the 2024 out there.
R3sistence's summary is the best summary of the classes and rankings I've seen.
I'm still baffled at your Warlock #1 ranking when its a bottom tier class, only better than Ranger imo. Massively limited spells and casting compared to the other three and you put it at #1.
We've got a Warlock in out party. And he runs out of spells all the time. And at that point just becomes and Eldritch Blast puppet. The subclass gimmicks are just that, gimmicks that are very limited. Sorcerer, Cleric, Wizard are the top 3 classes BY FAR in utility and power. With Cleric and Wizard only separated by Wizards spell diversity. Put a Cleric or Wizard in my hands and I'll 'can' dominate every encounter (IF that is what I was looking to do, which I'm not, that's not my playstyle). Clerics have an amazing ability to neutralize so many monsters (NPC's) abilities, counter debuff, grant debuff immunity. And wizards are the swiss army knife of classes, and still are amazing at dishing damage.
I'd like to hear your arguments why you think it ranks so high despite is severe limitations.
Why not a power optimized list then too?
The OP's list really was a personal preference list, but a list of which were arguably better and how the improved or worsened, albeit flawed. That is a fairly object list compared to person preferences.
Sure it had a lot of quality of life improvements, and as i have said it is still my favorite class. But the core of the class was sustainable single target DPR either through pact of the blade or eldritch blast. The changes in the game have made it so it is no longer a contributor in those fields either because its defense sucks for blade pact or its damage just sucks for cantrip spam. And their express design where they limited their casting severely was because they were supposed to be solid contributors in that arena.
Now they have some solid gimmicks a GOOs silent and remote casting through a imp at level 5, how ridic OP a imp is at levels 1-3 etc. 1 extra spell a day through a 1 minute ritual is cool and is a boost a 3rd attack on pact is a boost(though it makes it a bit of a invocation hog just to do your core role of sustained DPR, which you will still fail at due to lack of defense), but for the most part their boosts are more quality of life based than substance based.
More invocations with more versatility in those invocations is more than a QoL improvement. I question how you are determining the baseline and intent on the target DPR in your assumptions on what "a contributor in those fields" contributes.
Your concerns are damage and durability. This is not a concern I share, but here's a rough idea...
Class: Warlock, obviously.
Background: Entertainer. This is for CHA and DEX, and the musician feat is useful.
Species: Goliath (Stone). This is for the damage reduction feature.
Ability Scores (based on standard array):
Seems useful enough. At second level add...
Spell: charm person
Invocations: fiendish vigor, lessons of the first ones (lucky feat). These add to the defensiveness by way of a lot of temp hp through a day and some dice manipulation.
At 3rd level go with the fiend patron. This is another source of temp hp that doesn't require wasting an action, and can also be granted when allies drop enemies nearby. Also add misty step for some utility or possible escape if needed.
The general direction is weapon attacks for damage so there aren't going to be that many actions for spells so spells can be long term use or situational spells outside of combat, and avoid concentration spells if possible. This means those pact magic slots last because they aren't needed for combat, but the fiend patron does have some combat spells for just in case. A lot of temp hp keeps the character from dying.
At fifth level thirsting blade is a must. Eldritch smite is an option for some burst damage a bit more paladin style for the other invocation, but a person could consider devil's sight to pair with the darkness spell by then. Darkness helps with both offense and defense that way as long as the party can deal with possible impacts.
I'm not seeing that lack of ability to contribute effectively. Weapon use is one way. SLA's is the other on a more caster oriented warlock.
Because power optimization is pointless in D&D for the most part, just look at treantmonks damage comparison, most classes are very close to each other. There is no value in the game or the story for having a wizard or cleric in it, while a ranger or warlock has so much more interesting choices.
It was pretty obvious that Sorcerer subclasses weren't adding much damage, but I'm surprised how much fighter subclasses underperform when it comes to damage when you compare the rankings here. I'd be interested to take another look at the exact numbers to see how significant that is https://19216801****/ https://routerlogin.uno/ .
I'm pretty sure Treantmonk was using a pretty high number of rounds of combat per rest, which makes a large difference for classes with consumable resources (such as fighters with action surge).
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I prefer doing Tier lists, because some of the classes are just a matter of taste and who's playing it.
This, just switch fighter with palys in the ranks, great arguments.