I was kicking a couple of ideas around in regards to the new weapon masteries added and was wondering if they worked:
Let's say we have a fighter/barb multi class (for the sake of grabbing extra weapon masteries) and pick the sailor as our background (tavern brawler origin feat)
We have proficiency in all weapons, proficiency in improvised weapons, and 5 weapon masteries
We build a halberd fighter. (Halberd,Lance,Pike,Quarterstaff,Spear masteries) A halberd has both an axeblade (1d12 slashing, the standard way of using it), a spear tip, a hook/pick at the back, and the handle end. Through the polearm master feat, we are able to, with a bonus action, attack with the handle for 1d4. The RL idea behind a halberd is that it can be used in many different ways, like a swiss army knife on a stick.
Is it possible to improvise weapon our halberd as a pike/lance/spear/quarterstaff? The idea is that the rules say that you can treat a random object like a weapon, if it is close enough to said weapon, but it also involves the DM's discretion. In case of a halberd, it is basically the afforementioned weapons rolled into one, so it would make sense to.
Do we get the corresponding damage die if we do? (1d12 pc, 1d12pc, 1d8 pc (v), 1d8 bl (v))
Do we get the corresponding benefit from slasher/piercer/crusher feats (prodived we have them) if we do?
Do we get the corresponding weapon mastery (provided we have them) if we do?
If we attack with our handle through our polearm mastery feat, can we, if we improvise it as quarterstaff, use the d8 (versatile) dice instead of the d4?
Would we get access to polearm mastery, if we improvised a trident as a spear (identical weapon aside from the masteries)
If we apply both a push AND a topple with the same attack (crusher feat with quarterstaff improvised handle polearm mastery feat), does the target get pushed and then fall, or the other way around?
Can one push away a target that is prone?
Does the halberd's cleave mastery apply slasher to both targets, or just the first one? The feat says once per turn, but cleave is essentially just one attack?
Also; Is it just straight up self sabotage to get topple on a reach weapon? We get disadvantage on prone targets if more than 5ft away.
This would add another level to the already impressive battlemaster fighter/weapon mastery shenanigans. I can picture it being OP, but also kinda making sense. That said, other weapons would make less sense (improvising a quarterstaff into a spear, without the spear tip, making less sense than the other way around).
Can you elaborate on that? As in; which of the questions are impossible, or is it all of them? Are there quotes from the new 2024 rules that rule out any/all of these things?
This is what I am basing my ideas on:
Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand. AN IMPROVISED WEAPON INCLUDES ANY OBJECT YOU CAN WIELD IN ONE OR TWO HANDS, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and CAN BE TREATED AS SUCH. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
- held in one or two hands? check!
-similar to an actual weapon? check!
-no resemblance to a weapon(1d4)? uncheck!
In addition, established weapons can be used in a not-intended way, such as smacking enemies with a bow, throwing a two-handed weapon, using a whip as a sling, etc. Technically, the spear tip/backside hook and handle end were all routinely used for halberds, but dnd-rulewise, these uses would fall under improvised weaponry. That said, since an actual speartip exists, what would speak against using a halberd like a spear/lance/pike?
Using it as a battle axe would involve short-gripping it because of handle lenght difference and, because of axeblade differences, there'd be a damage difference (greataxe is already d12 vs halberds' d10). Using items in such a way would lose us our proficiency bonus, something the tavern brawler feat would fix. Now those are the 2014 rules though, so I dunno if something changed towards 2024.
The assumption here is that we have both proficiency with the original weapon (halberd), the emulated weapon (lets say pike), proficiency with improvised weaponry, AND mastery with the weapon mastery that we hope to use (push).
Every weapon has a list of game statistics. How a real world halberd may or may not have been used is irrelevant. In D&D, it's a slashing weapon with the heavy, reach, and two-handed properties and the cleave mastery. Nothing more or less than that. You can't just choose to use different properties instead in an effort to game the system. You want to use a halberd, do that, you want to drop it and pick up a pike, go nuts. But you can't just decide to treat a halberd like a pike because you like the mastery better on the pike. This is clearly an effort to exploit the rules to gain an advantage, so, if you were to ask me at my table, I'd say no, you can't. If you want to argue that if you squint at it in just the right light its RAW, I'd point to the following lines from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Outlining these principles can help hold players’ exploits at bay. If a player persistently tries to twist the rules of the game, have a conversation with that player outside the game and ask them to stop.
Is it possible to improvise weapon our halberd as a pike/lance/spear/quarterstaff?
No. The improvised weapon rules only apply to things that aren't already weapons
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you can make melee attacks with a bow, or throw two-handed weapons, you ARE improvising things that are already weapons though.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
In this example, you would apply melee weapon properties to ranged weapons, and thrown properties to weapons which do not have them. This clearly shows that weapons can be used as improvised weapons of another type.
If you want to use a real melee weapon (like a halberd) outside its normal parameters (say, to weild it with just one hand), then you can, but it's a d4 of damage with no appreciable weapon properties (including no mastery).
This is clearly an effort to exploit the rules to gain an advantage...
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Outlining these principles can help hold players’ exploits at bay. If a player persistently tries to twist the rules of the game, have a conversation with that player outside the game and ask them to stop.
This is not an attempt to exploit anything, I deny that accusation. If I was that sneaky a person, why would I bother making a thread about it here? My lack of knowledge of the exact ruling pertaining improvised weapons has brought me here. I was wondering to myself if as a monk, taking the sailor background for the tavern brawler origin feat was worth it, and working through the improvised weapons section, noticed a mention somewhere that you can treat weapons in unintended ways, improvising them as different weapons. I dont know if this is a loophole they oversaw in the new 2024 rules and I just discovered it, or if there are explicit rulings somewhere that forbid this. I also have no intentions to break anything or "game the system", as you call it. I merely thought I found a creative, not to obvious way (and maybe secretly intended) to use the otherwise underused improvise weapons feature of dnd.
and it was not deeply discussed, but as I understood it, it was reasoned that by wording, it works.
I have not played 2024 rules yet, so I have no idea if improvising weapons like that would be overpowered or not (I suspect not, since you'll need more feats and masteries), so I cant say wether or not it is a bad idea from a balance POV, but from a gameplay, immersion and logic pov, I would say it is a fun way to play.
If you can make melee attacks with a bow, or throw two-handed weapons, you ARE improvising things that are already weapons though
If you want to throw a halberd, good luck to you
If you use it for its intended purpose -- making melee attacks -- then you use it as a halberd. Full stop
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you want to use a real melee weapon (like a halberd) outside its normal parameters (say, to weild it with just one hand), then you can, but it's a d4 of damage with no appreciable weapon properties (including no mastery).
It would, as in the example, still be used as a melee weapon (pike/lance/quarterstaff, all pole weapons a halberd is similar to). So the question was, since the weapon features a spear tip fashioned for thrusting, if it was subject to the d4/no mastery penalty.
If you can make melee attacks with a bow, or throw two-handed weapons, you ARE improvising things that are already weapons though
If you want to throw a halberd, good luck to you
If you use it for its intended purpose -- making melee attacks -- then you use it as a halberd. Full stop
The quote you took was in the context of your post stating that one cannot use already existing weapons as different weapons. The specificly mentioned examples do not exclude using one melee weapon as another. And the examples of my initial post were all explicitly --making melee attacks --
In the light of realism, if someone wanted to throw a halberd with the improvised weapons feat, I'd (If I was a DM) rule it to have reduced range (15-30 maybe?). That is because a halberd is noticable heavier than a spear. Without the tavern brawler feat, it would have the additional loss of the proficiency bonus, due to less suited throwing shape (weapon head). Comparing a lance and pike though, it does raise questions on how the lance topples, and the pike pushes. Maybe it's the idea of using the lance mounted, toppling enemies through momentum of the charge? Maybe I'm simply thinking too much though, and this is just a pure gameplay decision, divorced from more exact realism.
If you want to use a real melee weapon (like a halberd) outside its normal parameters (say, to weild it with just one hand), then you can, but it's a d4 of damage with no appreciable weapon properties (including no mastery).
It would, as in the example, still be used as a melee weapon (pike/lance/quarterstaff, all pole weapons a halberd is similar to). So the question was, since the weapon features a spear tip fashioned for thrusting, if it was subject to the d4/no mastery penalty.
If you can make melee attacks with a bow, or throw two-handed weapons, you ARE improvising things that are already weapons though
If you want to throw a halberd, good luck to you
If you use it for its intended purpose -- making melee attacks -- then you use it as a halberd. Full stop
The quote you took was in the context of your post stating that one cannot use already existing weapons as different weapons.
Your intention seems to be to win an internet argument here, not make a coherent rules argument, so I'm out
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you want to use a real melee weapon (like a halberd) outside its normal parameters (say, to weild it with just one hand), then you can, but it's a d4 of damage with no appreciable weapon properties (including no mastery).
It would, as in the example, still be used as a melee weapon (pike/lance/quarterstaff, all pole weapons a halberd is similar to). So the question was, since the weapon features a spear tip fashioned for thrusting, if it was subject to the d4/no mastery penalty.
Yes, it would clearly be subject to the improvised weapon mechanics. The "For example, a table leg is akin to a club." rule would only apply to random non-weapon objects, because some simple weapons (like a club) are truly simple enough for things like table legs to count. A halberd is not a spear; a spear is not a halberd.
I guess this is up for interpretation. The ingame halberd is restricted to slashing damage, albeit halberds having a thrusting point which effectively does make them spears, with extra utilities. The above quote I took
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
made it sound like it might work. My line of thought was that:
1) Halberd is an object weildable in one or two hands
2) is used in unintened way therfor becomes improvised
3) is similar to an actual weapon (spear, as it's essentially a spear with extra parts)
4) can be treated as such
Since the overall consensus is that I'm reading too much into this and it's not intended to work this way, I'll drop this. I don't want to upset anyone, after all ;).
The foundational question is whether you can improvise a halberd as a different weapon. The answer is no. The intent behind improvised weapons is to provide mechanics in the case that something unexpected comes up. For example, they break off a table leg and start swinging it like a club - how do you handle that? Or perhaps the pick up a Goblin by the ankles and start swinging it like a flail, how do you deal with that? With improvised weapon mechanics.
It isn't intended to be a way to create a weapon out of something that has multiple beneficial properties that are not present in other weapons - like a making a halberd a spear, a quarterstaff or a lance on demand. The weapons are all separated out and given distinct properties to provide choice and meaning to those decisions. You want a spear? You can have one. You want a lance? Sure. You have to pay the price and carry one, sacrificing the other, or carry both and deal with the monetary cost and weight as well as the action economy.
It would defeat the point of the game being about choices and agency by allowing the Swiss Army Knife of weapons that you're looking for.
If you really want it, speak to your DM. Maybe they'll let you. They don't really understand the point behind agency in the game if they do, though.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Is it possible to improvise weapon our halberd as a pike/lance/spear/quarterstaff? The idea is that the rules say that you can treat a random object like a weapon, if it is close enough to said weapon, but it also involves the DM's discretion. In case of a halberd, it is basically the afforementioned weapons rolled into one, so it would make sense to. If your DM lets you, you can.
Do we get the corresponding damage die if we do? (1d12 pc, 1d12pc, 1d8 pc (v), 1d8 bl (v)) I don't see why not.
Do we get the corresponding benefit from slasher/piercer/crusher feats (prodived we have them) if we do? I don't see why not.
Do we get the corresponding weapon mastery (provided we have them) if we do? I don't see why not.
If we attack with our handle through our polearm mastery feat, can we, if we improvise it as quarterstaff, use the d8 (versatile) dice instead of the d4? No.
Would we get access to polearm mastery, if we improvised a trident as a spear (identical weapon aside from the masteries) Why not?
If we apply both a push AND a topple with the same attack (crusher feat with quarterstaff improvised handle polearm mastery feat), does the target get pushed and then fall, or the other way around? Why does this matter?
Can one push away a target that is prone? Yes.
Does the halberd's cleave mastery apply slasher to both targets, or just the first one? The feat says once per turn, but cleave is essentially just one attack? No, it's a separate attack roll.
I disagree with those that say you cannot use weapons as improvised weapon, p369:
"a simple or martial weapon also counts as an improvised weapon if it's wielded in a way contrary to it's design"
Now only 2 examples are given re use contrary to design (melee with a ranged weapon, and throwing a non thrown melee weapon- so yes you can throw a halberd). This would result in a weapon doing d4 damage with potential range of 20/60. I don't image the 2 examples given are exclusive means of improvising (so for example if you used a two handed weapon in 1 hand it would likely also deal d4 damage).
Weapon equivalents (p369): This suggests to the DM to use something resembling the weapon, though it may be an improvised object, as that weapon. e.g. given use of a table leg as a club. There is nothing stopping a DM ruling that a weapon equivalent use of an improvised weapon uses the rules of a given weapon (such as using the reverse end of a military pick as a light hammer, or a spear haft as a quarterstaff) and in some cases it would make a great amount of sense to do so, but this is up to DM judgement. In any case, for that use, it would use the weapon equivalent stats in all respects and no other (so you would never get more than 1 mastery property per use/attack without a class feature allowing this. When class features allow this the effect is simultaneous- see below).
As far as effects and order of effects goes- you do them in order of execution, if simultaneous then the person who's turn it is decides on order of execution (so if you have a push effect from an attack, say due to shield bash/shield master, and topple weapon mastery on the weapon, you would decide which of the topple effect or the shield bash effect to apply first)
The key point in that quote is "...if it's wielded in a way contrary to its design".
I'll repeat: The improvised weapons is a catch-all mechanic intended to provide a way to parse a situation that is not covered or foreseen by the rules. It is not intended to provide advantages to players that allow them to have their cake and eat it too. That breaks the game part of the...well...game.
You're an archer and someone sneaks up on you, so you fend them off by swinging your Longbow is fine, model it as a Club. Taking your Spear, attaching a brick to the end, and claiming that lets you use it as a spear (you can stab and throw it) while also giving you access to a d10 damage if you swing it like a Warhammer isn't going to fly.
Hopefully everyone can see why that's a problem. The same principles apply with a Halberd. If you want a spear, an axe and a quarterstaff, then crack on. You have to carry them separately. I may let you use it as a Club, but as it asked? No, not as a Swiss Army Halberd.
If you want me to consider letting this happen, you're going to have to propose a pretty serious drawback to counter breaking the agency part of the game. Like, it's so cumbersome that you can't stow it properly. You have to put it on your back then out your backpack on, so to use it, you have spend your first Action in combat taking your backpack off to access it. If that's too steep - no problem. Have a spear, a pike etc and I'll let you pick which one to use each time, as per RAW.
Having a weapon that can simultaneously fulfil the role of multiple weapons (including being able to upgrade its RAW damage!) is way beyond the intent of the improvised weapon rules. To be frank, anyone seriously considering allowing this without significant drawbacks attached doesn't understand the point of the rules.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The Improvised Weapons don't have the Thrown property or other one. While not official ruling, the devs also indicated on X or on Dragon Talk: Sage Advice when discussing improvised weapons not using any properties. Unless DM allow it specifically but it seems not intended.
@DMdandanfieldng Does using an improvised weapon in certain ways impart properties to it? For instance, does throwing a rock give the rock the Thrown property?
@JeremyECrawford Using an object in a certain way doesn't impart any weapon properties to it. Those properties are game features. An object has such properties only if a rule or the DM says it does.
As DM i tend toward a more strict approach to Improvised Weapons they're usually a very subpar choice of weaponry unless the object resembles a weapon it can function like, they don't benefit from Weapon Mastery Property etc. You don't add your Proficiency Bonus to attack rolls and use statistics like this;
I would probably run like this as well. But if a player specifically wanted to build around Improvised Weapon mastery I'd work with them to make something a bit better but not as crazy as "any weapon mastery you want".
Hopefully everyone can see why that's a problem. The same principles apply with a Halberd. If you want a spear, an axe and a quarterstaff, then crack on. You have to carry them separately. I may let you use it as a Club, but as it asked? No, not as a Swiss Army Halberd.
I don't know if it was just a riff on the OP's "swiss army knife on a stick" line, but funnily enough... Swiss Army members make up the Pope's personal guard, the "Swiss Guard," who famously still train and wield halberds. As OP alluded to, the fact that it mimics the function of other weapons is precisely why they chose a halberd.
As you said, there is nothing stopping a player from using all of the individual weapons, provided they carry them separately. But you still have a free item interaction on each of your turns, and the rules explicitly state that you can draw or stow a weapon as part of each attack you make with your action, which can happen before or after the attack — such that you do not necessarily need to attack with the weapon you draw. If you have the proficiency and mastery to use them, you can technically juggle weapons to make use of their various mastery properties. Which you say you're fine with. But you also say:
If you want me to consider letting this happen, you're going to have to propose a pretty serious drawback to counter breaking the agency part of the game. Like, it's so cumbersome that you can't stow it properly. You have to put it on your back then out your backpack on, so to use it, you have spend your first Action in combat taking your backpack off to access it. If that's too steep - no problem. Have a spear, a pike etc and I'll let you pick which one to use each time, as per RAW.
I'm not sure how it breaks the "agency" part of the game, given that the game explicitly allows it. If you want to impose some arbitrary drawback because you don't think it's realistic, then that's your right as DM, but it's also a you problem... not a RAW problem.
Having a weapon that can simultaneously fulfil the role of multiple weapons (including being able to upgrade its RAW damage!) is way beyond the intent of the improvised weapon rules. To be frank, anyone seriously considering allowing this without significant drawbacks attached doesn't understand the point of the rules.
If you can use a bow as a club, then it pretty obviously isn't beyond the intent of the improvised weapons rules to have one weapon fulfil multiple roles. And the Tavern Brawler feat exists to make you better at doing just that — among other things. And... you say this is breaking the agency part of the game... but whose agency? The other player who chose to be a spear master and spear master only? Agency is about meaningful choices and tradeoffs. The spear-only character chose “I’m great with spears.” The fighter/barb who invested in extra masteries chose “I’m great with a bunch of polearms.” The second character having more available combat applications is the intended payoff for the build choices they made. Nothing is being taken away from the spear character; their options are exactly what they were before.
Similarly, we already established that you can use multiple weapons that serve multiple roles, by just carrying around a bunch of weapons you have mastery with, and swapping between them. Spear guy could also do that, rules-as-written, if he'd chosen to invest in doing so. So, what advantages are being given (that they don't already have) by allowing a player to have their halberd and eat it too? They have the proficiency, they have the masteries... they couldplay the "golfbag fighter" who swaps between polearms in the midst of battle, and nothing in the RAW would prevent that. Your "agency" complaint sounds more like, "I don’t like that his build gives him more options than players who didn’t buy those options."
But they don't want to be a golfbag fighter... they want to be the guy who's super freaking good with the halberd and uses it for its historical, multifaceted functions, rather than just a reskinned glaive. That's the fantasy they invested in. Not allowing a player to benefit from the character-building options they chose—without "a pretty serious drawback"—feels like it breaks the agency part of the game. I don't know about you... But using a halberd, how it's designed irl to be used, is more realistic and immersive to me than constantly swapping between weapons in your golf bag to have the same effect.
Of course, you still have room to interpret this line from the rules on improvised weapons:
"A Simple or Martial weapon also counts as an improvised weapon if it's wielded in a way contrary to its design"...
That has room for interpretation... using a halberd like a pike is not contrary to its design in real life — but the game would apply slashing damage and the cleave property to the attack — which, to me, belies the actual makers of the game'sdesign was that a standard halberd attack is one where the halberd is wielded as a long slashing weapon. Personally, I would have the player describe how they are trying to wield it and decide whether it resembles another weapon enough that it "functions as that weapon and [therefor] uses that weapon's rules." As per the rules as written, in the Improvised Weapon section.
I'd still enforce that you can only benefit from one weapon's mastery per attack, depending on how you're wielding it, and the damage die would match. I do think OP is confused about some of the other feats mentioned, and the interactions between those feats and improvising one weapon into another would depend on the scenario. For example, no, you can't change the damage die of the BA Polearm Master attack; it pretty plainly says "the weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4."
Mind you, being able to improvise one weapon to be used like another isn't unique to the halberd. If a historically savvy player wanted to try "half-swording" to wield their greatsword more like a spear, I'd happily let them swap that 2d6 slashing for 1d8 piercing. If a smart player was fighting skeletons with their greatsword, and decided to flip it around and try a "murder stroke," I'd let them improvise that attack for bludgeoning damage instead.
But if spear-guy sees this and says they're going to tie a brick to their spear and swing it like a warhammer for 1d10 bludgeoning, I'd say it doesn't resemble a warhammer in any meaningful way: warhammers have a metal end and are typically fastened to the polearm with very sturdy rivets and langets. If you just tie a rock on the end of a stick, it will neither resemble nor function like a warhammer. Unlike the opposite scenario, where a warhammer is being used like a spear... many warhammers have spikes at the top and can be used as spears... I'd tell the spear-brick person that perhaps it would work as a greatclub, with a d8 damage die. But I'd also tell them if they wanted a d8 bludgeoning attack, they could just use a spear as a quarterstaff and skip the tinkering altogether. If they really want a spear for thrusting and the damage of a warhammer, I'd tell them to just buy a warhammer instead.
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I was kicking a couple of ideas around in regards to the new weapon masteries added and was wondering if they worked:
Let's say we have a fighter/barb multi class (for the sake of grabbing extra weapon masteries) and pick the sailor as our background (tavern brawler origin feat)
We have proficiency in all weapons, proficiency in improvised weapons, and 5 weapon masteries
We build a halberd fighter. (Halberd,Lance,Pike,Quarterstaff,Spear masteries) A halberd has both an axeblade (1d12 slashing, the standard way of using it), a spear tip, a hook/pick at the back, and the handle end. Through the polearm master feat, we are able to, with a bonus action, attack with the handle for 1d4. The RL idea behind a halberd is that it can be used in many different ways, like a swiss army knife on a stick.
Is it possible to improvise weapon our halberd as a pike/lance/spear/quarterstaff? The idea is that the rules say that you can treat a random object like a weapon, if it is close enough to said weapon, but it also involves the DM's discretion. In case of a halberd, it is basically the afforementioned weapons rolled into one, so it would make sense to.
Do we get the corresponding damage die if we do? (1d12 pc, 1d12pc, 1d8 pc (v), 1d8 bl (v))
Do we get the corresponding benefit from slasher/piercer/crusher feats (prodived we have them) if we do?
Do we get the corresponding weapon mastery (provided we have them) if we do?
If we attack with our handle through our polearm mastery feat, can we, if we improvise it as quarterstaff, use the d8 (versatile) dice instead of the d4?
Would we get access to polearm mastery, if we improvised a trident as a spear (identical weapon aside from the masteries)
If we apply both a push AND a topple with the same attack (crusher feat with quarterstaff improvised handle polearm mastery feat), does the target get pushed and then fall, or the other way around?
Can one push away a target that is prone?
Does the halberd's cleave mastery apply slasher to both targets, or just the first one? The feat says once per turn, but cleave is essentially just one attack?
Also; Is it just straight up self sabotage to get topple on a reach weapon? We get disadvantage on prone targets if more than 5ft away.
This would add another level to the already impressive battlemaster fighter/weapon mastery shenanigans. I can picture it being OP, but also kinda making sense. That said, other weapons would make less sense (improvising a quarterstaff into a spear, without the spear tip, making less sense than the other way around).
Thoughts?
In short, no. It is not possible to do that.
But of course, ask your DM and see if they’re ok with it.
Can you elaborate on that? As in; which of the questions are impossible, or is it all of them? Are there quotes from the new 2024 rules that rule out any/all of these things?
This is what I am basing my ideas on:
- held in one or two hands? check!
-similar to an actual weapon? check!
-no resemblance to a weapon(1d4)? uncheck!
In addition, established weapons can be used in a not-intended way, such as smacking enemies with a bow, throwing a two-handed weapon, using a whip as a sling, etc. Technically, the spear tip/backside hook and handle end were all routinely used for halberds, but dnd-rulewise, these uses would fall under improvised weaponry. That said, since an actual speartip exists, what would speak against using a halberd like a spear/lance/pike?
Using it as a battle axe would involve short-gripping it because of handle lenght difference and, because of axeblade differences, there'd be a damage difference (greataxe is already d12 vs halberds' d10). Using items in such a way would lose us our proficiency bonus, something the tavern brawler feat would fix. Now those are the 2014 rules though, so I dunno if something changed towards 2024.
The assumption here is that we have both proficiency with the original weapon (halberd), the emulated weapon (lets say pike), proficiency with improvised weaponry, AND mastery with the weapon mastery that we hope to use (push).
Every weapon has a list of game statistics. How a real world halberd may or may not have been used is irrelevant. In D&D, it's a slashing weapon with the heavy, reach, and two-handed properties and the cleave mastery. Nothing more or less than that. You can't just choose to use different properties instead in an effort to game the system. You want to use a halberd, do that, you want to drop it and pick up a pike, go nuts. But you can't just decide to treat a halberd like a pike because you like the mastery better on the pike. This is clearly an effort to exploit the rules to gain an advantage, so, if you were to ask me at my table, I'd say no, you can't. If you want to argue that if you squint at it in just the right light its RAW, I'd point to the following lines from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Outlining these principles can help hold players’ exploits at bay. If a player persistently tries to twist the rules of the game, have a conversation with that player outside the game and ask them to stop.
But again, ask your DM.
No. The improvised weapon rules only apply to things that aren't already weapons
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you can make melee attacks with a bow, or throw two-handed weapons, you ARE improvising things that are already weapons though.
In this example, you would apply melee weapon properties to ranged weapons, and thrown properties to weapons which do not have them. This clearly shows that weapons can be used as improvised weapons of another type.
If you want to use a real melee weapon (like a halberd) outside its normal parameters (say, to weild it with just one hand), then you can, but it's a d4 of damage with no appreciable weapon properties (including no mastery).
This is not an attempt to exploit anything, I deny that accusation. If I was that sneaky a person, why would I bother making a thread about it here? My lack of knowledge of the exact ruling pertaining improvised weapons has brought me here. I was wondering to myself if as a monk, taking the sailor background for the tavern brawler origin feat was worth it, and working through the improvised weapons section, noticed a mention somewhere that you can treat weapons in unintended ways, improvising them as different weapons. I dont know if this is a loophole they oversaw in the new 2024 rules and I just discovered it, or if there are explicit rulings somewhere that forbid this. I also have no intentions to break anything or "game the system", as you call it. I merely thought I found a creative, not to obvious way (and maybe secretly intended) to use the otherwise underused improvise weapons feature of dnd.
I stumbled across this reddit post
https://www.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/1eksp6s/weapon_mastery_on_improvised_weapons/
and it was not deeply discussed, but as I understood it, it was reasoned that by wording, it works.
I have not played 2024 rules yet, so I have no idea if improvising weapons like that would be overpowered or not (I suspect not, since you'll need more feats and masteries), so I cant say wether or not it is a bad idea from a balance POV, but from a gameplay, immersion and logic pov, I would say it is a fun way to play.
If you want to throw a halberd, good luck to you
If you use it for its intended purpose -- making melee attacks -- then you use it as a halberd. Full stop
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It would, as in the example, still be used as a melee weapon (pike/lance/quarterstaff, all pole weapons a halberd is similar to). So the question was, since the weapon features a spear tip fashioned for thrusting, if it was subject to the d4/no mastery penalty.
The quote you took was in the context of your post stating that one cannot use already existing weapons as different weapons. The specificly mentioned examples do not exclude using one melee weapon as another. And the examples of my initial post were all explicitly --making melee attacks --
In the light of realism, if someone wanted to throw a halberd with the improvised weapons feat, I'd (If I was a DM) rule it to have reduced range (15-30 maybe?). That is because a halberd is noticable heavier than a spear. Without the tavern brawler feat, it would have the additional loss of the proficiency bonus, due to less suited throwing shape (weapon head). Comparing a lance and pike though, it does raise questions on how the lance topples, and the pike pushes. Maybe it's the idea of using the lance mounted, toppling enemies through momentum of the charge? Maybe I'm simply thinking too much though, and this is just a pure gameplay decision, divorced from more exact realism.
Your intention seems to be to win an internet argument here, not make a coherent rules argument, so I'm out
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes, it would clearly be subject to the improvised weapon mechanics. The "For example, a table leg is akin to a club." rule would only apply to random non-weapon objects, because some simple weapons (like a club) are truly simple enough for things like table legs to count. A halberd is not a spear; a spear is not a halberd.
I guess this is up for interpretation. The ingame halberd is restricted to slashing damage, albeit halberds having a thrusting point which effectively does make them spears, with extra utilities. The above quote I took
made it sound like it might work. My line of thought was that:
1) Halberd is an object weildable in one or two hands
2) is used in unintened way therfor becomes improvised
3) is similar to an actual weapon (spear, as it's essentially a spear with extra parts)
4) can be treated as such
Since the overall consensus is that I'm reading too much into this and it's not intended to work this way, I'll drop this. I don't want to upset anyone, after all ;).
The foundational question is whether you can improvise a halberd as a different weapon. The answer is no. The intent behind improvised weapons is to provide mechanics in the case that something unexpected comes up. For example, they break off a table leg and start swinging it like a club - how do you handle that? Or perhaps the pick up a Goblin by the ankles and start swinging it like a flail, how do you deal with that? With improvised weapon mechanics.
It isn't intended to be a way to create a weapon out of something that has multiple beneficial properties that are not present in other weapons - like a making a halberd a spear, a quarterstaff or a lance on demand. The weapons are all separated out and given distinct properties to provide choice and meaning to those decisions. You want a spear? You can have one. You want a lance? Sure. You have to pay the price and carry one, sacrificing the other, or carry both and deal with the monetary cost and weight as well as the action economy.
It would defeat the point of the game being about choices and agency by allowing the Swiss Army Knife of weapons that you're looking for.
If you really want it, speak to your DM. Maybe they'll let you. They don't really understand the point behind agency in the game if they do, though.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Is it possible to improvise weapon our halberd as a pike/lance/spear/quarterstaff? The idea is that the rules say that you can treat a random object like a weapon, if it is close enough to said weapon, but it also involves the DM's discretion. In case of a halberd, it is basically the afforementioned weapons rolled into one, so it would make sense to. If your DM lets you, you can.
Do we get the corresponding damage die if we do? (1d12 pc, 1d12pc, 1d8 pc (v), 1d8 bl (v)) I don't see why not.
Do we get the corresponding benefit from slasher/piercer/crusher feats (prodived we have them) if we do? I don't see why not.
Do we get the corresponding weapon mastery (provided we have them) if we do? I don't see why not.
If we attack with our handle through our polearm mastery feat, can we, if we improvise it as quarterstaff, use the d8 (versatile) dice instead of the d4? No.
Would we get access to polearm mastery, if we improvised a trident as a spear (identical weapon aside from the masteries) Why not?
If we apply both a push AND a topple with the same attack (crusher feat with quarterstaff improvised handle polearm mastery feat), does the target get pushed and then fall, or the other way around? Why does this matter?
Can one push away a target that is prone? Yes.
Does the halberd's cleave mastery apply slasher to both targets, or just the first one? The feat says once per turn, but cleave is essentially just one attack? No, it's a separate attack roll.
I disagree with those that say you cannot use weapons as improvised weapon, p369:
"a simple or martial weapon also counts as an improvised weapon if it's wielded in a way contrary to it's design"
Now only 2 examples are given re use contrary to design (melee with a ranged weapon, and throwing a non thrown melee weapon- so yes you can throw a halberd). This would result in a weapon doing d4 damage with potential range of 20/60. I don't image the 2 examples given are exclusive means of improvising (so for example if you used a two handed weapon in 1 hand it would likely also deal d4 damage).
Weapon equivalents (p369): This suggests to the DM to use something resembling the weapon, though it may be an improvised object, as that weapon. e.g. given use of a table leg as a club. There is nothing stopping a DM ruling that a weapon equivalent use of an improvised weapon uses the rules of a given weapon (such as using the reverse end of a military pick as a light hammer, or a spear haft as a quarterstaff) and in some cases it would make a great amount of sense to do so, but this is up to DM judgement. In any case, for that use, it would use the weapon equivalent stats in all respects and no other (so you would never get more than 1 mastery property per use/attack without a class feature allowing this. When class features allow this the effect is simultaneous- see below).
As far as effects and order of effects goes- you do them in order of execution, if simultaneous then the person who's turn it is decides on order of execution (so if you have a push effect from an attack, say due to shield bash/shield master, and topple weapon mastery on the weapon, you would decide which of the topple effect or the shield bash effect to apply first)
The key point in that quote is "...if it's wielded in a way contrary to its design".
I'll repeat: The improvised weapons is a catch-all mechanic intended to provide a way to parse a situation that is not covered or foreseen by the rules. It is not intended to provide advantages to players that allow them to have their cake and eat it too. That breaks the game part of the...well...game.
You're an archer and someone sneaks up on you, so you fend them off by swinging your Longbow is fine, model it as a Club. Taking your Spear, attaching a brick to the end, and claiming that lets you use it as a spear (you can stab and throw it) while also giving you access to a d10 damage if you swing it like a Warhammer isn't going to fly.
Hopefully everyone can see why that's a problem. The same principles apply with a Halberd. If you want a spear, an axe and a quarterstaff, then crack on. You have to carry them separately. I may let you use it as a Club, but as it asked? No, not as a Swiss Army Halberd.
If you want me to consider letting this happen, you're going to have to propose a pretty serious drawback to counter breaking the agency part of the game. Like, it's so cumbersome that you can't stow it properly. You have to put it on your back then out your backpack on, so to use it, you have spend your first Action in combat taking your backpack off to access it. If that's too steep - no problem. Have a spear, a pike etc and I'll let you pick which one to use each time, as per RAW.
Having a weapon that can simultaneously fulfil the role of multiple weapons (including being able to upgrade its RAW damage!) is way beyond the intent of the improvised weapon rules. To be frank, anyone seriously considering allowing this without significant drawbacks attached doesn't understand the point of the rules.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The Improvised Weapons don't have the Thrown property or other one. While not official ruling, the devs also indicated on X or on Dragon Talk: Sage Advice when discussing improvised weapons not using any properties. Unless DM allow it specifically but it seems not intended.
As DM i tend toward a more strict approach to Improvised Weapons they're usually a very subpar choice of weaponry unless the object resembles a weapon it can function like, they don't benefit from Weapon Mastery Property etc. You don't add your Proficiency Bonus to attack rolls and use statistics like this;
I would probably run like this as well. But if a player specifically wanted to build around Improvised Weapon mastery I'd work with them to make something a bit better but not as crazy as "any weapon mastery you want".
I don't know if it was just a riff on the OP's "swiss army knife on a stick" line, but funnily enough... Swiss Army members make up the Pope's personal guard, the "Swiss Guard," who famously still train and wield halberds. As OP alluded to, the fact that it mimics the function of other weapons is precisely why they chose a halberd.
As you said, there is nothing stopping a player from using all of the individual weapons, provided they carry them separately. But you still have a free item interaction on each of your turns, and the rules explicitly state that you can draw or stow a weapon as part of each attack you make with your action, which can happen before or after the attack — such that you do not necessarily need to attack with the weapon you draw. If you have the proficiency and mastery to use them, you can technically juggle weapons to make use of their various mastery properties. Which you say you're fine with. But you also say:
I'm not sure how it breaks the "agency" part of the game, given that the game explicitly allows it. If you want to impose some arbitrary drawback because you don't think it's realistic, then that's your right as DM, but it's also a you problem... not a RAW problem.
If you can use a bow as a club, then it pretty obviously isn't beyond the intent of the improvised weapons rules to have one weapon fulfil multiple roles. And the Tavern Brawler feat exists to make you better at doing just that — among other things. And... you say this is breaking the agency part of the game... but whose agency? The other player who chose to be a spear master and spear master only? Agency is about meaningful choices and tradeoffs. The spear-only character chose “I’m great with spears.” The fighter/barb who invested in extra masteries chose “I’m great with a bunch of polearms.” The second character having more available combat applications is the intended payoff for the build choices they made. Nothing is being taken away from the spear character; their options are exactly what they were before.
Similarly, we already established that you can use multiple weapons that serve multiple roles, by just carrying around a bunch of weapons you have mastery with, and swapping between them. Spear guy could also do that, rules-as-written, if he'd chosen to invest in doing so. So, what advantages are being given (that they don't already have) by allowing a player to have their halberd and eat it too?
They have the proficiency, they have the masteries... they could play the "golfbag fighter" who swaps between polearms in the midst of battle, and nothing in the RAW would prevent that. Your "agency" complaint sounds more like, "I don’t like that his build gives him more options than players who didn’t buy those options."
But they don't want to be a golfbag fighter... they want to be the guy who's super freaking good with the halberd and uses it for its historical, multifaceted functions, rather than just a reskinned glaive. That's the fantasy they invested in. Not allowing a player to benefit from the character-building options they chose—without "a pretty serious drawback"—feels like it breaks the agency part of the game. I don't know about you... But using a halberd, how it's designed irl to be used, is more realistic and immersive to me than constantly swapping between weapons in your golf bag to have the same effect.
Of course, you still have room to interpret this line from the rules on improvised weapons:
"A Simple or Martial weapon also counts as an improvised weapon if it's wielded in a way contrary to its design"...
That has room for interpretation... using a halberd like a pike is not contrary to its design in real life — but the game would apply slashing damage and the cleave property to the attack — which, to me, belies the actual makers of the game's design was that a standard halberd attack is one where the halberd is wielded as a long slashing weapon.
Personally, I would have the player describe how they are trying to wield it and decide whether it resembles another weapon enough that it "functions as that weapon and [therefor] uses that weapon's rules." As per the rules as written, in the Improvised Weapon section.
I'd still enforce that you can only benefit from one weapon's mastery per attack, depending on how you're wielding it, and the damage die would match. I do think OP is confused about some of the other feats mentioned, and the interactions between those feats and improvising one weapon into another would depend on the scenario. For example, no, you can't change the damage die of the BA Polearm Master attack; it pretty plainly says "the weapon’s damage die for this attack is a d4."
Mind you, being able to improvise one weapon to be used like another isn't unique to the halberd. If a historically savvy player wanted to try "half-swording" to wield their greatsword more like a spear, I'd happily let them swap that 2d6 slashing for 1d8 piercing. If a smart player was fighting skeletons with their greatsword, and decided to flip it around and try a "murder stroke," I'd let them improvise that attack for bludgeoning damage instead.
But if spear-guy sees this and says they're going to tie a brick to their spear and swing it like a warhammer for 1d10 bludgeoning, I'd say it doesn't resemble a warhammer in any meaningful way: warhammers have a metal end and are typically fastened to the polearm with very sturdy rivets and langets. If you just tie a rock on the end of a stick, it will neither resemble nor function like a warhammer. Unlike the opposite scenario, where a warhammer is being used like a spear... many warhammers have spikes at the top and can be used as spears... I'd tell the spear-brick person that perhaps it would work as a greatclub, with a d8 damage die. But I'd also tell them if they wanted a d8 bludgeoning attack, they could just use a spear as a quarterstaff and skip the tinkering altogether. If they really want a spear for thrusting and the damage of a warhammer, I'd tell them to just buy a warhammer instead.