Like, its good, really good. Almost every promise fulfilled. But im kinda upset at 1 very particular promise that was constantly advertised to me and many others for months now. Where are the other Tarrasque level threats?
In the advertisements it was continuously promised that each creature type was getting its own Tarrasque monster. But no.... the Tarrasque is still the only CR 30 in the book, and while there are a handful of monsters for creature types that rise above their cr limits, none actually make it to CR 30, and only 1 makes it to CR 25.
Heck there were multiple monsters in this book you 100% could have brought to that level, some you even could of cheated with like the Animal SPirit could of needed a heard or pack to get to that level, the Arch hag needing a coven, but the Elemental Cataclysm? not even CR25......
I'm still going through it. I wouldn't say i'm "mad" but I am beyond disappointed so far. So far nothing in the "monster conversion" chart is worth using the 2024 conversion. They are all objectively weaker than the 2014 equivalents. WTF were they thinking?! The 2024 power boost is obvious, ok great, some things needed it and the new UA's are also hella power creep, well lets call it a power jump. Then the drop this POS that nerfs half of everything ive read through so far... do they expect us to just have to add a crap ton of more creature to encounters to maintain the level of difficulty for lower level encounter? I like tough swingy lower level play and all the good creature for that have been made weaker. It's clear they were focused on higher level campaigns, the opposite of 2014, and left your standard creatures for encounters below what looks like level 8-10 weak, boring and too easy.
Like, its good, really good. Almost every promise fulfilled. But im kinda upset at 1 very particular promise that was constantly advertised to me and many others for months now. Where are the other Tarrasque level threats?
In the advertisements it was continuously promised that each creature type was getting its own Tarrasque monster. But no.... the Tarrasque is still the only CR 30 in the book, and while there are a handful of monsters for creature types that rise above their cr limits, none actually make it to CR 30, and only 1 makes it to CR 25.
Heck there were multiple monsters in this book you 100% could have brought to that level, some you even could of cheated with like the Animal SPirit could of needed a heard or pack to get to that level, the Arch hag needing a coven, but the Elemental Cataclysm? not even CR25......
What the heck wizards, why the repeated lie?
Where was it advertised that they would be doing CR 30's for all the types
Only thing I saw was "higher CR" for all classes.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Like, its good, really good. Almost every promise fulfilled. But im kinda upset at 1 very particular promise that was constantly advertised to me and many others for months now. Where are the other Tarrasque level threats?
In the advertisements it was continuously promised that each creature type was getting its own Tarrasque monster. But no.... the Tarrasque is still the only CR 30 in the book, and while there are a handful of monsters for creature types that rise above their cr limits, none actually make it to CR 30, and only 1 makes it to CR 25.
Heck there were multiple monsters in this book you 100% could have brought to that level, some you even could of cheated with like the Animal SPirit could of needed a heard or pack to get to that level, the Arch hag needing a coven, but the Elemental Cataclysm? not even CR25......
What the heck wizards, why the repeated lie?
Where was it advertised that they would be doing CR 30's for all the types
While the video about the MM24 did have Crawford say they were going to make some monsters deadlier, they just gave a fair bit of them actual lower CR ratings so that lower leveled characters would meet those MM14 monsters sooner rather than later. If you want something with a higher CR, you have to customize a monster that ether already exists, or homebrew a new monster. Nothing new about that, something DM/GM’s have had to at some point deal with. Lots of hype, and little to any real change worth any value, unless you like art books. and with nearly half the 24Rules needing some sort of Errata, it most certainly means the MM24 will also require an Errata. A one month feedback and playtest period for a number of UA -> published rules shows how disconnected the design team is from knowing the actual rules and how they work, and the same goes for the new MM24 and the changes made.
Like, its good, really good. Almost every promise fulfilled. But im kinda upset at 1 very particular promise that was constantly advertised to me and many others for months now. Where are the other Tarrasque level threats?
In the advertisements it was continuously promised that each creature type was getting its own Tarrasque monster. But no.... the Tarrasque is still the only CR 30 in the book, and while there are a handful of monsters for creature types that rise above their cr limits, none actually make it to CR 30, and only 1 makes it to CR 25.
Heck there were multiple monsters in this book you 100% could have brought to that level, some you even could of cheated with like the Animal SPirit could of needed a heard or pack to get to that level, the Arch hag needing a coven, but the Elemental Cataclysm? not even CR25......
What the heck wizards, why the repeated lie?
Where was it advertised that they would be doing CR 30's for all the types
While the video about the MM24 did have Crawford say they were going to make some monsters deadlier, they just gave a fair bit of them actual lower CR ratings so that lower leveled characters would meet those MM14 monsters sooner rather than later. If you want something with a higher CR, you have to customize a monster that ether already exists, or homebrew a new monster. Nothing new about that, something DM/GM’s have had to at some point deal with. Lots of hype, and little to any real change worth any value, unless you like art books. and with nearly half the 24Rules needing some sort of Errata, it most certainly means the MM24 will also require an Errata. A one month feedback and playtest period for a number of UA -> published rules shows how disconnected the design team is from knowing the actual rules and how they work, and the same goes for the new MM24 and the changes made.
ok, but that doesn't answer the question of where did they say they were going to have CR 30 monsters in each group?
OP Said:
it was continuously promised that each creature type was getting its own Tarrasque monster. But no.... the Tarrasque is still the only CR 30 in the book, and while there are a handful of monsters for creature types that rise above their cr limits, none actually make it to CR 30, and only 1 makes it to CR 25.
I never heard of any of that in the videos.
Anywhere. Which is why and what I asked.
I've watched all the videos and seen all the advertisements, and no where does it say that they would have each creature type getting a CR 30.
So this made no sense to me -- why would someone be mad about something that was never promised?
I did not ask about if monsters are "weaker" or "stronger" -- an assessment I haven't been able to make a determination regarding, but find suspect, given that I have held off level 20 characters with a group of seven CR 1 critters for 10 rounds. But much of that is in how the monsters are used (something that the video linked does discuss).
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
No guidelines for making custom monsters that fit the new scaling, beyond the DMG instruction to reskin existing stuff. So we either do that, or use the old math that was deemed wrong.
Most of the lower level statblocks appear to have been weakened even further. I wonder if the intention is that this will sell more miniatures - make it so most low-level monsters are just pushovers, so buy more models so you can make bigger encounters.
Very few new versions of other monsters. Like we have a CR 3 Flaming skeleton which is... a stronger version of the CR 1/2 one from Taldorei. Woo.
The Monster conversion chart is a joke - Deep Gnomes are apparently just bog-standard scouts, and Drow can apparently all cast Radiant Flame, Duergar are Spies, and Orcs are just reskinned Thugs. But they left Goblins, Bugbears, Gnolls and just tacked 'warrior' on the end of them... so I'm confused why some species got chopped, but others didn't. No consistency.
I'm running COS so I've only had a chance to read over the undead in-depth, but if this is representative of the whole book, this isn't what they said we'd be getting. All the articles claim that the new MM will actually challenge players, and I'm not seeing it. I'll be sticking to the r/bettermonsters stuff. They may be more complicated to run, but they've got teeth.
I don't remember any promises about there being specifically CR30 creatures for each type. That doesn't mean that it never happened...but I don't remember that.
I do remember that they promised more support for higher play and that there would also be higher CR monsters. Unfortunately, with everything that went on and sheer passage of time, I don't remember what was actually said to point to what lead me to the latter conclusion. I'd also have to do .ore analysis to see if they followed through with that, not necessarily by having more CR20+ monsters, but more monsters that are high enough CR to still work as group opponents of T4-5 parties.
I do generally like the new MM though.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Like, its good, really good. Almost every promise fulfilled. But im kinda upset at 1 very particular promise that was constantly advertised to me and many others for months now. Where are the other Tarrasque level threats?
In the advertisements it was continuously promised that each creature type was getting its own Tarrasque monster. But no.... the Tarrasque is still the only CR 30 in the book, and while there are a handful of monsters for creature types that rise above their cr limits, none actually make it to CR 30, and only 1 makes it to CR 25.
Heck there were multiple monsters in this book you 100% could have brought to that level, some you even could of cheated with like the Animal SPirit could of needed a heard or pack to get to that level, the Arch hag needing a coven, but the Elemental Cataclysm? not even CR25......
What the heck wizards, why the repeated lie?
Where was it advertised that they would be doing CR 30's for all the types
While the video about the MM24 did have Crawford say they were going to make some monsters deadlier, they just gave a fair bit of them actual lower CR ratings so that lower leveled characters would meet those MM14 monsters sooner rather than later. If you want something with a higher CR, you have to customize a monster that ether already exists, or homebrew a new monster. Nothing new about that, something DM/GM’s have had to at some point deal with. Lots of hype, and little to any real change worth any value, unless you like art books. and with nearly half the 24Rules needing some sort of Errata, it most certainly means the MM24 will also require an Errata. A one month feedback and playtest period for a number of UA -> published rules shows how disconnected the design team is from knowing the actual rules and how they work, and the same goes for the new MM24 and the changes made.
ok, but that doesn't answer the question of where did they say they were going to have CR 30 monsters in each group?
OP Said:
it was continuously promised that each creature type was getting its own Tarrasque monster. But no.... the Tarrasque is still the only CR 30 in the book, and while there are a handful of monsters for creature types that rise above their cr limits, none actually make it to CR 30, and only 1 makes it to CR 25.
I never heard of any of that in the videos.
Anywhere. Which is why and what I asked.
I've watched all the videos and seen all the advertisements, and no where does it say that they would have each creature type getting a CR 30.
So this made no sense to me -- why would someone be mad about something that was never promised?
I did not ask about if monsters are "weaker" or "stronger" -- an assessment I haven't been able to make a determination regarding, but find suspect, given that I have held off level 20 characters with a group of seven CR 1 critters for 10 rounds. But much of that is in how the monsters are used (something that the video linked does discuss).
Because all the hype was speculation that was spread concerning how the power creep was being spread in the new rules, monsters would follow suit. But what has happened was they adjusted the CR of the more dangerous monsters lower so the character would have to face that challenge sooner rather then later. Given the speculation, most like myself thought that monsters would be buffed and be completely OP, instead the devs just moved the bar lower, and based on that change, really did little to improve the overall game, other than increase the power creep more.
And as someone who has been taking the time and effort to understand the changes, all i see is the increased power of casters and magical elements while diminishing the ability of Martial characters by making rules that require more clarity than ever.
Told one thing, find out it’s not what the speculation thought, and people are just trying to find out what the freak.
An in the video, the speculation from the designer was bigger, nastier, and far deadlier monsters than what was previously given; and what we will get is not what most will expect. Again, unconfirmed rumors and the lack of any real communication from the designer team has made expectation vs reality a thing to question.
I must say i'm a bit disapointed as well. There is a lot to like, but then they go and do stuff like:
- Give more creatures Pact Tactics. It was already getting hard to find players willing to play martial characters because although their damage output has increased, they simply don't have the hp to take the hits of level appropriate encounters - and now many of those creatures get advantage on all attacks against that martial character (so much for the protection of a high AC when the monster gets to roll twice to beat it).
- HP - There are some monsters that REALLY needed more hp (like dragons, just to name one). It was too easy in 5e2014 to bring them down before they could get close enough to threaten the group, now with 5e2024's higher character damage output and all the ways to slow enemies (no size limit on the slow weapon mastery), they are even less likely to get in range.
- Eliminated certain creatures. Yes I know you can still fight an Orc, but in the encounter builder it won't say Orc, it will say "Tough" WTF?? Gone are the uniqueness of Orcs and Drow (just to name two). And explain again how a Lizardfolk now uses the Scout statblock (no swim speed), while the Lizardfolk spellcasters have their own statblock with a swimspeed. Yes, as DM you can just say "and they swim", but now they have to go look up in another book what that swim speed is. All because they eliminated "lizardfolk" yet kept "lizardfolk" sovereign and geomancers. Same with gnomes. Just because it is a playable species, doesn't mean it needs to be removed from the Monster Manual (why did they keep Bugbears if that was the case).
- Tarrasque. In a video the Devs said it was no longer possible to just sit at range and bring down a Tarrasque. Wanna bet? Step 1: Give character Sharpshooter (no disadvantage at range), Step 2: Give character a magic bow, Step 3: annihilate the Tarrasque from 600 ft away with an unending shower of magical piercing damage. Better yet, make sure the one firing that longbow has Weapon Mastery to slow the Tarrasque by 10' each round (doesn't have a size restriction). Want it gone even faster? Use more than one archer, or better yet - flying archers to just sit 600' above the Tarrasque and rain down those arrows. The only defense the Tarrasque has against this is to burrow and run away. A couple of low level Aarakocra archers can sell themselves out as Tarrasque killers.
- Prone and Grapple - really not a fan of automatically proning and grappling characters on every hit with no way to resist. 20 STR Barbarian bit by wolf, automatically taken prone.
I thought they were going to balance the monsters to the amount of muscle milk that they fed all the classes in 5e2024, they even bragged during the videos of how they remade the monsters "to bring the hurt" - yet... they didn't.
So i'm a bit disappointed, but like I said, there is a lot to like (I like how Beholders' non-damaging eye rays now inflict at least some damage)...
Because all the hype was speculation that was spread concerning how the power creep was being spread in the new rules, monsters would follow suit. But what has happened was they adjusted the CR of the more dangerous monsters lower so the character would have to face that challenge sooner rather then later. Given the speculation, most like myself thought that monsters would be buffed and be completely OP, instead the devs just moved the bar lower, and based on that change, really did little to improve the overall game, other than increase the power creep more.
So for you, it is a problem that you thought that the monsters were all going to be super strong, and instead it is "how you use the monsters" and this makes you angry, because of what you wanted it to be.
Don't understand how that's a problem or fault of WotC since all that speculation was by people other than them, but ok.
And as someone who has been taking the time and effort to understand the changes, all i see is the increased power of casters and magical elements while diminishing the ability of Martial characters by making rules that require more clarity than ever.
Told one thing, find out it’s not what the speculation thought, and people are just trying to find out what the freak.
So, I will note that they said the CR wasn't going to change for any of the existing monsters -- and it hasn't -- but a Dire Wolf is a lot tougher a foe because of how you use it.
And there are several much tougher monsters in several areas that will be rather grand challenges -- if the DM uses them tactically and strategically (something that is expressed frequently, though not using those words).
An in the video, the speculation from the designer was bigger, nastier, and far deadlier monsters than what was previously given; and what we will get is not what most will expect. Again, unconfirmed rumors and the lack of any real communication from the designer team has made expectation vs reality a thing to question.
So, basically, you paid attention to things outside what was actually said, and this made it feel like and seem to you like there were going to be things in there that they never promised, and that's the fault of WotC?
All of the videos are communication. It may not be responsive communication, or even a discussion, but this is a product being released -- not a thing where there is responsive communication or discussion as a default, a standard business practice, and if you did have that as an expectation on your part, that isn't their fault either or responsibility either.
It is real communication. The kind that companies do all the time. This is also called marketing.
Now, if the OP could answer the question, it would be great -- you seem to have a different issue and I still want to know the OP's response.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
So, I will note that they said the CR wasn't going to change for any of the existing monsters -- and it hasn't -- but a Dire Wolf is a lot tougher a foe because of how you use it.
How? The only thing I see where the Dire Wolf (2024) is better than the Dire Wolf (2014) is that it auto-prones on a successful attack instead of a check, while having 40% less health. It's not really any stronger, to the contrary...
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They are all objectively weaker than the 2014 equivalents.
This is a bizarre claim. Just going down the first few entries:
Aarakocra vs Aarakocra Skirmisher: 2024 monster has higher CON, more damage on the dive attack (which doesn't require flying now), and an extra d4 on the javelin.
Acolyte vs Priest Acolyte: 2024 monster has higher STR, CON, and AC, mace instead of club (d6 instead of d4) plus additional d4 of damage, Radiant Flame attack (2d6 vs Sacred Flame's 1d8), only one spell slot but includes Bless as a bonus action.
Adult Blue Dracolich vs Dracolich: 2024 monster has higher INT, CON, and AC, three rend attacks give higher average damage than bite + two claw attacks, slightly less damage on breath attack but better aoe, gains spellcasting, and has way better legendary actions (terrifying presence multiple times a round, are you kidding me?).
I think people really need to take a breath. Use them for a few sessions, then circle back. I know folks love their white-room scenarios, but maybe actually try them and see. Maybe they aren’t great, I honestly don’t know one way or another, but try them and actually develop an informed opinion. Theory crafting the monster’s dpr and deciding that makes them weaker or stronger is really pretty simplistic. Because the design goal isn’t necessarily stronger or weaker monsters, it’s a fun experience. Are they fun to fight as a player and run as a DM? And if the answer is yes, does it really matter how much damage they’re doing?
I'm really looking for alternatives. There are serious power scaling issues come past around Lvl 10. It just dumps more workload on the DM and you either make things too easy or too hard at that point. Disappointed they didn't address any of that... should have waited longer, fix and build upon 5E and release D&D 6.0 by 2030 instead.
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I'm really looking for alternatives. There are serious power scaling issues come past around Lvl 10. It just dumps more workload on the DM and you either make things too easy or too hard at that point. Disappointed they didn't address any of that... should have waited longer, fix and build upon 5E and release D&D 6.0 by 2030 instead.
What is the use case where the DM has a lot of work do to figure out a balanced fight. Is it because you are running high level one shots so its not obvious what makes a decent fight? Is it because you are running multiple campaigns?
- Tarrasque. In a video the Devs said it was no longer possible to just sit at range and bring down a Tarrasque. Wanna bet? Step 1: Give character Sharpshooter (no disadvantage at range), Step 2: Give character a magic bow, Step 3: annihilate the Tarrasque from 600 ft away with an unending shower of magical piercing damage. Better yet, make sure the one firing that longbow has Weapon Mastery to slow the Tarrasque by 10' each round (doesn't have a size restriction). Want it gone even faster? Use more than one archer, or better yet - flying archers to just sit 600' above the Tarrasque and rain down those arrows. The only defense the Tarrasque has against this is to burrow and run away. A couple of low level Aarakocra archers can sell themselves out as Tarrasque killers.
Setting up a cherry-picked and unusually specific encounter scenario (I’ve never had a fight start at 600’) doesn’t actually prove your point. But, hey, even if we go with that. That magic bow damage is still resisted now, so our archer is doing half damage. Tarrasque moves 60, dashes another 60. Legendary action allows another 60, up to three times a round. It’s getting there pretty quickly. It’s got a cone attack with a 150’ range when it gets kind of close. But, you actually solved it yourself — it’s got a burrow speed. No one is targeting it underground. Maybe it’s a little slower, moving 40+ 40+40, but that still fast enough to catch most any PC.
It was a 2021 - 2025 campaign. Many creatures had to be re-tuned to address the near broken optimized characters in order to create a believable and enjoyable power struggle. If the PCs get rolled, Player won't have fun, if the NPCs get rolled, DM won't have fun.
If neither side can 100% certain guess the end result, that creates excitement, suspense, etc. However, that was hard to do, tiring and things like certain spells are accessible too early that trivialize many situations that would be, well then, suspenseful.
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I have used what changes they made to the monsters, even took the time to compare side by side the difference.
Nothing different than what people have been doing since the beginning, taking the generic monsters given to us in manual’s and taking them and tailoring what we get to fit the games we DM/GM for.
With the fact that the designer Crawford, who works for Wizards of the Coast and has been on video saying the new rules will be better than before, WotC knows what it’s pushing.
The side by side monster comparison just on the basic level shows the new changes are only really in the shifting of the CR of monsters to lower CR’s and I bet a second book of monsters won’t be far behind.
The free rules have had the changed monsters for a bit now, wasn’t hard to take a day and compare the two rules versions.
Thought the game was about becoming a hero, not a monster hunter, or seeing how many monsters Ican stuff into a ball. ( crates of holding are far better) game is about facing something that may or may not destroy the very fabric of reality, and life isn’t easy, but when everybody is capable of altering reality by level 9…
I expect those hero's to have to go through some serious monsters to make that power creep feel like it takes more than just getting handed an easy ride.
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Like, its good, really good. Almost every promise fulfilled. But im kinda upset at 1 very particular promise that was constantly advertised to me and many others for months now. Where are the other Tarrasque level threats?
In the advertisements it was continuously promised that each creature type was getting its own Tarrasque monster. But no.... the Tarrasque is still the only CR 30 in the book, and while there are a handful of monsters for creature types that rise above their cr limits, none actually make it to CR 30, and only 1 makes it to CR 25.
Heck there were multiple monsters in this book you 100% could have brought to that level, some you even could of cheated with like the Animal SPirit could of needed a heard or pack to get to that level, the Arch hag needing a coven, but the Elemental Cataclysm? not even CR25......
What the heck wizards, why the repeated lie?
I'm still going through it. I wouldn't say i'm "mad" but I am beyond disappointed so far. So far nothing in the "monster conversion" chart is worth using the 2024 conversion. They are all objectively weaker than the 2014 equivalents. WTF were they thinking?! The 2024 power boost is obvious, ok great, some things needed it and the new UA's are also hella power creep, well lets call it a power jump. Then the drop this POS that nerfs half of everything ive read through so far... do they expect us to just have to add a crap ton of more creature to encounters to maintain the level of difficulty for lower level encounter? I like tough swingy lower level play and all the good creature for that have been made weaker. It's clear they were focused on higher level campaigns, the opposite of 2014, and left your standard creatures for encounters below what looks like level 8-10 weak, boring and too easy.
Where was it advertised that they would be doing CR 30's for all the types
Only thing I saw was "higher CR" for all classes.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
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https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/213617-2024-monster-manual-previews?comment=1
While the video about the MM24 did have Crawford say they were going to make some monsters deadlier, they just gave a fair bit of them actual lower CR ratings so that lower leveled characters would meet those MM14 monsters sooner rather than later. If you want something with a higher CR, you have to customize a monster that ether already exists, or homebrew a new monster.
Nothing new about that, something DM/GM’s have had to at some point deal with. Lots of hype, and little to any real change worth any value, unless you like art books. and with nearly half the 24Rules needing some sort of Errata, it most certainly means the MM24 will also require an Errata. A one month feedback and playtest period for a number of UA -> published rules shows how disconnected the design team is from knowing the actual rules and how they work, and the same goes for the new MM24 and the changes made.
ok, but that doesn't answer the question of where did they say they were going to have CR 30 monsters in each group?
OP Said:
I never heard of any of that in the videos.
Anywhere. Which is why and what I asked.
I've watched all the videos and seen all the advertisements, and no where does it say that they would have each creature type getting a CR 30.
So this made no sense to me -- why would someone be mad about something that was never promised?
I did not ask about if monsters are "weaker" or "stronger" -- an assessment I haven't been able to make a determination regarding, but find suspect, given that I have held off level 20 characters with a group of seven CR 1 critters for 10 rounds. But much of that is in how the monsters are used (something that the video linked does discuss).
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
More disappointed than mad.
I'm running COS so I've only had a chance to read over the undead in-depth, but if this is representative of the whole book, this isn't what they said we'd be getting. All the articles claim that the new MM will actually challenge players, and I'm not seeing it. I'll be sticking to the r/bettermonsters stuff. They may be more complicated to run, but they've got teeth.
I don't remember any promises about there being specifically CR30 creatures for each type. That doesn't mean that it never happened...but I don't remember that.
I do remember that they promised more support for higher play and that there would also be higher CR monsters. Unfortunately, with everything that went on and sheer passage of time, I don't remember what was actually said to point to what lead me to the latter conclusion. I'd also have to do .ore analysis to see if they followed through with that, not necessarily by having more CR20+ monsters, but more monsters that are high enough CR to still work as group opponents of T4-5 parties.
I do generally like the new MM though.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Because all the hype was speculation that was spread concerning how the power creep was being spread in the new rules, monsters would follow suit. But what has happened was they adjusted the CR of the more dangerous monsters lower so the character would have to face that challenge sooner rather then later.
Given the speculation, most like myself thought that monsters would be buffed and be completely OP, instead the devs just moved the bar lower, and based on that change, really did little to improve the overall game, other than increase the power creep more.
And as someone who has been taking the time and effort to understand the changes, all i see is the increased power of casters and magical elements while diminishing the ability of Martial characters by making rules that require more clarity than ever.
Told one thing, find out it’s not what the speculation thought, and people are just trying to find out what the freak.
An in the video, the speculation from the designer was bigger, nastier, and far deadlier monsters than what was previously given; and what we will get is not what most will expect.
Again, unconfirmed rumors and the lack of any real communication from the designer team has made expectation vs reality a thing to question.
I must say i'm a bit disapointed as well. There is a lot to like, but then they go and do stuff like:
- Give more creatures Pact Tactics. It was already getting hard to find players willing to play martial characters because although their damage output has increased, they simply don't have the hp to take the hits of level appropriate encounters - and now many of those creatures get advantage on all attacks against that martial character (so much for the protection of a high AC when the monster gets to roll twice to beat it).
- HP - There are some monsters that REALLY needed more hp (like dragons, just to name one). It was too easy in 5e2014 to bring them down before they could get close enough to threaten the group, now with 5e2024's higher character damage output and all the ways to slow enemies (no size limit on the slow weapon mastery), they are even less likely to get in range.
- Eliminated certain creatures. Yes I know you can still fight an Orc, but in the encounter builder it won't say Orc, it will say "Tough" WTF?? Gone are the uniqueness of Orcs and Drow (just to name two). And explain again how a Lizardfolk now uses the Scout statblock (no swim speed), while the Lizardfolk spellcasters have their own statblock with a swimspeed. Yes, as DM you can just say "and they swim", but now they have to go look up in another book what that swim speed is. All because they eliminated "lizardfolk" yet kept "lizardfolk" sovereign and geomancers. Same with gnomes. Just because it is a playable species, doesn't mean it needs to be removed from the Monster Manual (why did they keep Bugbears if that was the case).
- Tarrasque. In a video the Devs said it was no longer possible to just sit at range and bring down a Tarrasque. Wanna bet? Step 1: Give character Sharpshooter (no disadvantage at range), Step 2: Give character a magic bow, Step 3: annihilate the Tarrasque from 600 ft away with an unending shower of magical piercing damage. Better yet, make sure the one firing that longbow has Weapon Mastery to slow the Tarrasque by 10' each round (doesn't have a size restriction). Want it gone even faster? Use more than one archer, or better yet - flying archers to just sit 600' above the Tarrasque and rain down those arrows. The only defense the Tarrasque has against this is to burrow and run away. A couple of low level Aarakocra archers can sell themselves out as Tarrasque killers.
- Prone and Grapple - really not a fan of automatically proning and grappling characters on every hit with no way to resist. 20 STR Barbarian bit by wolf, automatically taken prone.
I thought they were going to balance the monsters to the amount of muscle milk that they fed all the classes in 5e2024, they even bragged during the videos of how they remade the monsters "to bring the hurt" - yet... they didn't.
So i'm a bit disappointed, but like I said, there is a lot to like (I like how Beholders' non-damaging eye rays now inflict at least some damage)...
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
The only thing that I'm honestly mad at is that I can't access it. I have a master tier sub, I pre-ordered the book today, and I can't access.
Edit: Yes, I've already resynced my entitlements, posted in the bug report thread AND submitted a support ticket. Still nothing.
So, I will note that they said the CR wasn't going to change for any of the existing monsters -- and it hasn't -- but a Dire Wolf is a lot tougher a foe because of how you use it.
And there are several much tougher monsters in several areas that will be rather grand challenges -- if the DM uses them tactically and strategically (something that is expressed frequently, though not using those words).
So, basically, you paid attention to things outside what was actually said, and this made it feel like and seem to you like there were going to be things in there that they never promised, and that's the fault of WotC?
All of the videos are communication. It may not be responsive communication, or even a discussion, but this is a product being released -- not a thing where there is responsive communication or discussion as a default, a standard business practice, and if you did have that as an expectation on your part, that isn't their fault either or responsibility either.
It is real communication. The kind that companies do all the time. This is also called marketing.
Now, if the OP could answer the question, it would be great -- you seem to have a different issue and I still want to know the OP's response.
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At least they got rid of Vampire regeneration. That worked terrible in 2014: either your burst the vampire in 3 rounds, or it was impossible to kill.
Handy tool, full blown, advanced, D&D 5e combat simulator: https://dndbattle.com
How? The only thing I see where the Dire Wolf (2024) is better than the Dire Wolf (2014) is that it auto-prones on a successful attack instead of a check, while having 40% less health. It's not really any stronger, to the contrary...
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is a bizarre claim. Just going down the first few entries:
Aarakocra vs Aarakocra Skirmisher: 2024 monster has higher CON, more damage on the dive attack (which doesn't require flying now), and an extra d4 on the javelin.
Acolyte vs Priest Acolyte: 2024 monster has higher STR, CON, and AC, mace instead of club (d6 instead of d4) plus additional d4 of damage, Radiant Flame attack (2d6 vs Sacred Flame's 1d8), only one spell slot but includes Bless as a bonus action.
Adult Blue Dracolich vs Dracolich: 2024 monster has higher INT, CON, and AC, three rend attacks give higher average damage than bite + two claw attacks, slightly less damage on breath attack but better aoe, gains spellcasting, and has way better legendary actions (terrifying presence multiple times a round, are you kidding me?).
Like, I'm sorry, did you read them in reverse?
I think people really need to take a breath. Use them for a few sessions, then circle back. I know folks love their white-room scenarios, but maybe actually try them and see. Maybe they aren’t great, I honestly don’t know one way or another, but try them and actually develop an informed opinion. Theory crafting the monster’s dpr and deciding that makes them weaker or stronger is really pretty simplistic. Because the design goal isn’t necessarily stronger or weaker monsters, it’s a fun experience. Are they fun to fight as a player and run as a DM? And if the answer is yes, does it really matter how much damage they’re doing?
I'm really looking for alternatives. There are serious power scaling issues come past around Lvl 10. It just dumps more workload on the DM and you either make things too easy or too hard at that point. Disappointed they didn't address any of that... should have waited longer, fix and build upon 5E and release D&D 6.0 by 2030 instead.
Enjoy your slop. I'll be enjoying good products elsewhere.
What is the use case where the DM has a lot of work do to figure out a balanced fight.
Is it because you are running high level one shots so its not obvious what makes a decent fight?
Is it because you are running multiple campaigns?
Handy tool, full blown, advanced, D&D 5e combat simulator: https://dndbattle.com
Setting up a cherry-picked and unusually specific encounter scenario (I’ve never had a fight start at 600’) doesn’t actually prove your point. But, hey, even if we go with that. That magic bow damage is still resisted now, so our archer is doing half damage. Tarrasque moves 60, dashes another 60. Legendary action allows another 60, up to three times a round. It’s getting there pretty quickly. It’s got a cone attack with a 150’ range when it gets kind of close.
But, you actually solved it yourself — it’s got a burrow speed. No one is targeting it underground. Maybe it’s a little slower, moving 40+ 40+40, but that still fast enough to catch most any PC.
It was a 2021 - 2025 campaign. Many creatures had to be re-tuned to address the near broken optimized characters in order to create a believable and enjoyable power struggle. If the PCs get rolled, Player won't have fun, if the NPCs get rolled, DM won't have fun.
If neither side can 100% certain guess the end result, that creates excitement, suspense, etc. However, that was hard to do, tiring and things like certain spells are accessible too early that trivialize many situations that would be, well then, suspenseful.
Enjoy your slop. I'll be enjoying good products elsewhere.
I have used what changes they made to the monsters, even took the time to compare side by side the difference.
Nothing different than what people have been doing since the beginning, taking the generic monsters given to us in manual’s and taking them and tailoring what we get to fit the games we DM/GM for.
With the fact that the designer Crawford, who works for Wizards of the Coast and has been on video saying the new rules will be better than before, WotC knows what it’s pushing.
The side by side monster comparison just on the basic level shows the new changes are only really in the shifting of the CR of monsters to lower CR’s and I bet a second book of monsters won’t be far behind.
The free rules have had the changed monsters for a bit now, wasn’t hard to take a day and compare the two rules versions.
Thought the game was about becoming a hero, not a monster hunter, or seeing how many monsters Ican stuff into a ball. ( crates of holding are far better) game is about facing something that may or may not destroy the very fabric of reality, and life isn’t easy, but when everybody is capable of altering reality by level 9…
I expect those hero's to have to go through some serious monsters to make that power creep feel like it takes more than just getting handed an easy ride.