What makes "existing lore" so sacrosanct? It was all made up by somebody at some point, there's nothing inherently special about that point being 40 years ago or 4 months ago. All that matters to me is whether the change is plausible. And some Lizardfolk getting adept enough with earth magic to infuse themselves with it is fine, it's not like they're cloud people.
Who says it's 'sacrosanct'? But is there any reason to change it? Lizardfolk have been part of the game since .. well I imagine essentially from the beginning. They are swamp people, amphibians, jungle guys with stone weapons and a swim speed. They have no connection to the plane of earth, really, and there's no reason to change them to have one - because if you want a race with a connection to the plane of earth, you can make another. There's a quadrillion bad and pointless races in D&D, but lizardfolk is one of the better ones. Why ruin a good race to create a crappy one that doesn't fit it's own lore? It's just stupid. They can do it, sure. I just can't imagine why they'd decide to do so.
Basically this, Lizardfolk had a well established identity and culture. They were something cool and unique, and there was no reason to change them. If they needed to retcon a species with a strong Earth connection, just like the Azer they had Dwarves. Literally Earth Dwarves and Fire Dwarves (azer). it would have made 1 million times more sense.
Fortunately this issue can be fixed by them fast as well 2 types of leader Lizardfolk have elemental connections but nothing in their description makes them the Azer of Plane of Earth as of yet.
Also I think people forget what the plane of Earth is like, its infinite Earth with Caves and Caverns most creatures swim in the Earth but some creatures live in the pockets of air.
Acromos nails the point IMHO with - "Who says it's 'sacrosanct'? But is there any reason to change it?"
Lizardfolk becoming Earth Elementals is a solution in search of a problem. It's a casualty of the heavy-handed elimination of the Humanoid category for enemies in the MM. Humanoids now are only PC species, why?!? THAT to me is the "is there any reason to change it?" problem that has lead to Drow, Orcs, and Duergar disappearing, Gnolls are now Fiends (not the worst change since they've been devolving that direction since 2nd ed), and our little chat here about Lizardfolk.
I, like most people I think, really like much of what was done in the MM25, but bummed about a few things like this. Especially in an edition that is touted as "backwards compatible" to the existing 5e adventures that many of us own and haven't run yet.
From the video they released, the Lizardfolk being connected to rocks more than water feels like Jeremy Crawford needed to find a fourth humanoid to turn into an elemental for Earth for perfect symmetry's sake, grabbed a 10 foot shoe horn and bennnnntttttt that sucker to stick the Lizardfolk in there. It's changes like this that do deserve an eye roll and a "c'mon man!" to at least let them know we are paying attention.
Lizardfolk have been part of the game since .. well I imagine essentially from the beginning. They are swamp people, amphibians, jungle guys with stone weapons and a swim speed.
1) Those Lizardfolk (the humanoid ones) not only still exist, they're still the majority of lizardfolk.
Yes there is - it's theirs, and they wanted to. That's all the reason that's needed.
It's not theirs - it's ours. But even if I were to agree with you, that's not a reason to change it. They're making it ..... for us! If everyone hates it (and I'm not saying everyone does, there seems to be at least one exception =) they shouldn't be doing it.
1) Those Lizardfolk (the humanoid ones) not only still exist, they're still the majority of lizardfolk.
2) Appeal to Tradition Fallacy.
1) They're still the only lizardfolk.
2) Oh that's rich. You're going 'to fallacy' me? This isn't a logic argument, this is an emotional argument. It's also a logical argument - as in there's no logical reason to do this, as I've clearly established - but tradition matters, and it matters for emotional reasons, as well as for continuity, which is a thing that is not a fallacy.
"Ruin", seriously? Melodramatic much?
Sure, if you like. Melodrama? Because I don't like something that - apparently - you do? I feel like I can listen to your opinion, and disagree, without rolling out terms like 'fallacy' or 'melodrama'. I think you're wrong, but that doesn't mean your point of view is invalid. You're right: D&D can do with their IP precisely what they want. But no one is obliged to like it when the stuff they chose to do is so dumb. And I'm sorry, but taking a water dwelling race and making them earth elemental seems to indicate they simply fail at their own lore.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It's not theirs - it's ours. But even if I were to agree with you, that's not a reason to change it. They're making it ..... for us! If everyone hates it (and I'm not saying everyone does, there seems to be at least one exception =) they shouldn't be doing it.
Sure, if "everyone hates it" then it's probably a bad business decision. (Got any evidence of that?) But that doesn't change the fact that "wanting to do it" is still a reason.
2) Oh that's rich. You're going 'to fallacy' me? This isn't a logic argument, this is an emotional argument.
1) This is outright false, as reading the MM entry (pg 197) would have shown you:
"While many lizardfolk are Humanoids with varied skills, some forge powerful bonds with the Elemental Plane of Earth, granting them magical connections to the cycle of growth and rebirth."
2) As glad as I am that you're admitting your position isn't rooted in logic, that doesn't increase its validity, quite the opposite.
Sure, if you like. Melodrama? Because I don't like something that - apparently - you do?
You're free to like or dislike anything you want, I have no issue with that. But saying lizardfolk are "ruined" because some of them became infused with Earth and the rest are unchanged from what you knew is honestly silly.
I agree that making Lizardfolk the representative humanoid-esque creature for the Plane of Earth is the only one which feels rather forced and schematic. I’ve been generally either happy or neutral about the other re-classified creatures so far. Merfolk and Aarakocra fit quite naturally into the Water and Air planes, respectively. The problem is that the classic Lizardfolk tends to be associated with very “vegetable” environments, whereas the Plane of Earth is preeminently “mineral”.
Classic, swamp-loving Lizardfolk would actually seem much more at home in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze.
Still, real-world lizards are often found in arid landscapes, so it’s not actually too hard to envisage some variants of Lizardfolk that are well-adapted to the Plane of Earth. (They’re just not the “classic” type.)
Sure, if "everyone hates it" then it's probably a bad business decision. (Got any evidence of that?) But that doesn't change the fact that "wanting to do it" is still a reason.
For evidence - well, there's this thread for a start. But really, no, not really. Do you have any evidence? Is that the sort of discussion this is? Are we submitting evidence before a higher power? I think not.
1) This is outright false, as reading the MM entry (pg 197) would have shown you:
"While many lizardfolk are Humanoids with varied skills, some forge powerful bonds with the Elemental Plane of Earth, granting them magical connections to the cycle of growth and rebirth."
2) As glad as I am that you're admitting your position isn't rooted in logic, that doesn't increase its validity, quite the opposite.
1) No it isn't. See, I'm refuting the existance of any other lizardfolk. That someone wrote something in some book means nothing to me.
2) None of this is logic. Please. You tried with 'fallacy' before. That simply isn't what we're doing here. This is an exchange of opinion. Logic has to go play somewhere else.
You're free to like or dislike anything you want, I have no issue with that. But saying lizardfolk are "ruined" because some of them became infused with Earth and the rest are unchanged from what you knew is honestly silly.
In Denmark we have something called remoulade. I'm unsure of it's existance outside our borders, but certainly I've seen no evidence of it. It's really mayo, but with vegies (notably carrots), and it's yellow. Bright, shiny yellow. It's good for it's thing, but bad in almost every other case. You get remoulade on something that isn't fried fish or maybe fries - it's ruined.
Same with this: You get your elemental nonsense on my lizardfolk - yes, they're ruined. Now I have to throw them out.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You're free to like or dislike anything you want, I have no issue with that. But saying lizardfolk are "ruined" because some of them became infused with Earth and the rest are unchanged from what you knew is honestly silly.
In Denmark we have something called remoulade. I'm unsure of it's existance outside our borders, but certainly I've seen no evidence of it. It's really mayo, but with vegies (notably carrots), and it's yellow. Bright, shiny yellow. It's good for it's thing, but bad in almost every other case. You get remoulade on something that isn't fried fish or maybe fries - it's ruined.
Same with this: You get your elemental nonsense on my lizardfolk - yes, they're ruined. Now I have to throw them out.
Considering remoulade is a French word and a very, very famous element of French cuisine, your failure to find evidence is self-inflicted, not a reflection of reality. Like many French traditional dishes, it travelled across the globe, most notably to places like Louisiana or other former French colonies, where it evolved its own, regional flavor profiles and uses. In creole cooking, it can be put on pretty much anything - it can be used anywhere a mayonnaise would be. For example, I’ve seen it on hot dogs in Louisiana - a condiment choice popular in Iceland as well.
I am sure there are pretentious French chefs throwing a hissy fit over a traditional French condiment being used in such a manner - and I am sure they would equally throw a hissy fit over your claiming a French food for Denmark.
That is kind of what you are doing on this thread. You are trying to preserve something you do not own (whether it is lizaedfolk or a condiment your country did not even invent). No one is forcing you to put remoulade on your metaphorical hot dog. The fact that Wizards has added a hot dog with remoulade to their menu really does not really change anything for you - you can just order without the remoulade, cook your hot dog at home, go to a different establishment, or order the older menu item, which they can still serve.
Otherwise, you are just being the worst kind of chef - the kind who feels some kind of ownership over something they cannot really lay claim to, and feels the need to be aggressively pretentious and yell at others for having different preferences. Don’t be that kind of chef.
That doesn't leave us with any basis for a rational discussion then, so I'll leave it there. All the best to you.
So .. you can only talk about stuff in books? That sounds .. limiting. Pleasure talking to you, have a nice day =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You're free to like or dislike anything you want, I have no issue with that. But saying lizardfolk are "ruined" because some of them became infused with Earth and the rest are unchanged from what you knew is honestly silly.
In Denmark we have something called remoulade. I'm unsure of it's existance outside our borders, but certainly I've seen no evidence of it. It's really mayo, but with vegies (notably carrots), and it's yellow. Bright, shiny yellow. It's good for it's thing, but bad in almost every other case. You get remoulade on something that isn't fried fish or maybe fries - it's ruined.
Same with this: You get your elemental nonsense on my lizardfolk - yes, they're ruined. Now I have to throw them out.
Considering remoulade is a French word and a very, very famous element of French cuisine, your failure to find evidence is self-inflicted, not a reflection of reality. Like many French traditional dishes, it travelled across the globe, most notably to places like Louisiana or other former French colonies, where it evolved its own, regional flavor profiles and uses. In creole cooking, it can be put on pretty much anything - it can be used anywhere a mayonnaise would be. For example, I’ve seen it on hot dogs in Louisiana - a condiment choice popular in Iceland as well.
I am sure there are pretentious French chefs throwing a hissy fit over a traditional French condiment being used in such a manner - and I am sure they would equally throw a hissy fit over your claiming a French food for Denmark.
That is kind of what you are doing on this thread. You are trying to preserve something you do not own (whether it is lizaedfolk or a condiment your country did not even invent). No one is forcing you to put remoulade on your metaphorical hot dog. The fact that Wizards has added a hot dog with remoulade to their menu really does not really change anything for you - you can just order without the remoulade, cook your hot dog at home, go to a different establishment, or order the older menu item, which they can still serve.
Otherwise, you are just being the worst kind of chef - the kind who feels some kind of ownership over something they cannot really lay claim to, and feels the need to be aggressively pretentious and yell at others for having different preferences. Don’t be that kind of chef.
As a native of Louisiana, we sometimes take food from different cultures and places and tweak them accordingly. Acadian french settlers from Canada that migrated from north french region brought their version of the danish condiment and have made various numerous variations of remoulade. So, please be careful with assumptions.
IMHO the lizard folk issue is one of attempting to fit a species into a specific single category that doesn’t exactly fit the diversity that a particular species might adapt to given the inherent nature of the species. Creatures that have a more inherent nature with actual characteristics that can be identified as “earth” based abilities would have been a better choice.
And just because a version of a creature is redesigned doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the official all else means nothing version, just that it becomes a sub-species that has unique characteristics. Yet another example of elements of the design and development that was given little consideration in the thought department, and attempts to distance itself from established norms that should have been at least acknowledged.
Oh, and certain species of lizards do use water as a means of bodily temperature control, especially in extreme humidity environments. Dryer environments require reptilian species to find ether more humid conditions or find a lower temperature environment to regulate their internal temperature. So tying LizardFolk to a specific plane of existence is not the best approach.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Ok, where are folk getting the idea that lizardfolk are amphibians? It’s not in the 2014 or 2024 MM, I just checked. 2024 also doesn’t make them from the plane of earth, it says some make a connection to it and then gives 2 stat locks for particular types that have that connection. To me, that means that the 2014 description and general stat block is still valid. In that description they are called reptilian. In earlier editions they were also (appropriately) reptilian. For those that have forgotten their middle school bio classes amphibians and reptiles are not the same thing - even if they do sometimes live in similar environments. Amphibians have a moist, pours (to water and air) skin so they have to live where it’s always moist or their skin ( and themselves) dries out. They have to lay their eggs in water as the eggs are also pours. Further they undergo a metamorphosis between the juvenile and adult forms. Reptiles have a dry water and air proof skin so they retain the moisture they take in. This means they don’t need a watery environment. Further their eggs have an amniotic membrane missing in amphibians that also acts to keep the water inside the egg while letting gasses ( like oxygen and CO2) pass thru. This means they don’t need to stay close to water even to breed. Amphibians are tied to swamps and wetlands, reptiles are not and can be found even in the harshest deserts. Lizards are one type of reptile, lizardfolk are, in D&D, another. Some reptiles do live in wet areas and open waters (sea snakes, turtles, marine iguanas, crocs, a few other snakes, etc) while others live in deserts (snakes, tortoises, lizards) and everything in between except artic environments. Is lore sacrosanct? No, but - before changing it you should have a compelling reason. Back in the day there was no lore so the 1e lore was required. Updates to that to accommodate version changes make sense. Even this dumb link to elemental earth can be seen in that light - it’s not all lizardfolk just those that take on the two described roles. Even the old shaman and leader statblocks are actually still viable (although I might nudge them just a bit).
I feel like people are (willfully?) ignoring this post, and that is a shame.
I generally don't give a damn about D&D lore, old or new, but upon looking this up, they've never been "amphibian" and adding "some forge powerful bonds with the Elemental Plane of Earth" or whatever barely registers as a change. There's just a couple statblocks for new, unique variations now. They even still list "swamp" as one of the habitats.
They are having too much fun arguing over nothing to want to have to deal with real stuff. Meanwhile, I’ve been having too much fun reading their comments to worry about anything other than the amphibian nonsense. What we have are 2 new stat locks for additional types of lizardfolk we can use. These 2 have links to the elemental plane of earth. The other thing we have is an advertising video that talks about the two and makes a couple of overblown comments not supported by the actual information ( surprise - it is an advertising video) . The reality is that as far back as 1e lizardfolk (lizard men) were reptilian. If some story made the mistake of calling them amphibian the author was mistaken. As for the new stat locks being elemental I don’t have a problem with adding them to the other 3 (2014) stat locks.
In a game design discussion, that's where you find the game's design, yes.
This isn't a game design discussion. This is a lore or fluff discussion. Game design would be mechanics, spells, weapons and armor, dice rolls and modifiers, combat rules - and so on.
As you'll notice, this is about precisely none of that, it's about the background of a race. It's worldbuilding, fluff, lore, story. Now ... do you find stories in books? Yes. Is that exclusive? No! And is any of that objective truth? Also no!
You're free to like or dislike anything you want, I have no issue with that. But saying lizardfolk are "ruined" because some of them became infused with Earth and the rest are unchanged from what you knew is honestly silly.
In Denmark we have something called remoulade. I'm unsure of it's existance outside our borders, but certainly I've seen no evidence of it. It's really mayo, but with vegies (notably carrots), and it's yellow. Bright, shiny yellow. It's good for it's thing, but bad in almost every other case. You get remoulade on something that isn't fried fish or maybe fries - it's ruined.
Same with this: You get your elemental nonsense on my lizardfolk - yes, they're ruined. Now I have to throw them out.
Considering remoulade is a French word and a very, very famous element of French cuisine, your failure to find evidence is self-inflicted, not a reflection of reality. Like many French traditional dishes, it travelled across the globe, most notably to places like Louisiana or other former French colonies, where it evolved its own, regional flavor profiles and uses. In creole cooking, it can be put on pretty much anything - it can be used anywhere a mayonnaise would be. For example, I’ve seen it on hot dogs in Louisiana - a condiment choice popular in Iceland as well.
I am sure there are pretentious French chefs throwing a hissy fit over a traditional French condiment being used in such a manner - and I am sure they would equally throw a hissy fit over your claiming a French food for Denmark.
That is kind of what you are doing on this thread. You are trying to preserve something you do not own (whether it is lizaedfolk or a condiment your country did not even invent). No one is forcing you to put remoulade on your metaphorical hot dog. The fact that Wizards has added a hot dog with remoulade to their menu really does not really change anything for you - you can just order without the remoulade, cook your hot dog at home, go to a different establishment, or order the older menu item, which they can still serve.
Otherwise, you are just being the worst kind of chef - the kind who feels some kind of ownership over something they cannot really lay claim to, and feels the need to be aggressively pretentious and yell at others for having different preferences. Don’t be that kind of chef.
As a native of Louisiana, we sometimes take food from different cultures and places and tweak them accordingly. Acadian french settlers from Canada that migrated from north french region brought their version of the danish condiment and have made various numerous variations of remoulade. So, please be careful with assumptions.
IMHO the lizard folk issue is one of attempting to fit a species into a specific single category that doesn’t exactly fit the diversity that a particular species might adapt to given the inherent nature of the species. Creatures that have a more inherent nature with actual characteristics that can be identified as “earth” based abilities would have been a better choice.
And just because a version of a creature is redesigned doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the official all else means nothing version, just that it becomes a sub-species that has unique characteristics. Yet another example of elements of the design and development that was given little consideration in the thought department, and attempts to distance itself from established norms that should have been at least acknowledged.
Oh, and certain species of lizards do use water as a means of bodily temperature control, especially in extreme humidity environments. Dryer environments require reptilian species to find ether more humid conditions or find a lower temperature environment to regulate their internal temperature. So tying LizardFolk to a specific plane of existence is not the best approach.
While the discussion of condiment is surely a relevant - and maybe even central one - I'm not going there. It was a joke on my part, I have no particular interest in remoulade (or ketchup or mayo for that matter), and while I realise the word is french, I'm reasonably convinced the french remolade isn't the same as the danish remolade. Same word, different stuff. I could show pictures, but .. in case anyone cares enough, they can look it up themselves.
The above isn't particularly a reply to Paradox_Traveller, more of a general statement =)
If I had been tasked with making elemental lizard dudes, I'd have gone with .. let's say dino-descendant vaguely raptor-like people - let's call them raptorians - who dwell in deserts, hiding under the sand to ambush travellers, and build their camps atop tall windblown mesas. And those I'd say have a strong connection to Elemental Earth. Camps on the mesas, but they have permanent ... not really homes but retreats, shelters, whatever, deep underground, where they lay their eggs, and where their dead are interred, returned to Father Earth. Or some such. Temples, essentially, used mostly for the beginning and the end of life. Maybe they have a special caste of grey-skinned guardians who watch over both.
But swamp dwellers? I just ... don't get it. No matter how I look at it, it just seems dumb.
I mean for heavens sakes ... is my version, that I came up with in seconds, not better? Objectively? I dunno. Never mind =D
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Totally understand the sentiment and I get the context of how different people have different perspectives on how history classifies things, but it does serve a useful purpose in demonstrating how various things can be interpreted differently from the actual historical context and origin of certain things.
Lizard folk have evolved, in relative D&D terms, to encompass a variety of different types of species that still adhere to certain environmental conditions and that still has a far greater range of diversity than might be expected just from a single point of view.
LizardFolk are like onions, …
If LizardFolk were tied more to the physical material plane of “Earth” than the actual Elemental plane of “Earth” then it would make more sense, given the amount of former lore of how an Elemental plane is typically considered to be a single elemental construct that has more hospitable environments near the boundaries between Elemental planes, and the deeper into a single elemental dimension one travels, the less diverse the “fringe” versions of creatures are.
If they changed the word “Elemental” to “Material” , IMHO it would have the effect of what might have been intended while maintaining the prior lore and concept of what a LizardFolk is, a Reptilian version of a species that is improbable to find in cold environments and has adapted to live and survive in various warmer climates. And because of the intricate nature with the Material Plane of “earth”, certain LizardFolk have adapted particular properties of the various elemental properties of the location of where they are commonly found.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Totally understand the sentiment and I get the context of how different people have different perspectives on how history classifies things, but it does serve a useful purpose in demonstrating how various things can be interpreted differently from the actual historical context and origin of certain things.
Lizard folk have evolved, in relative D&D terms, to encompass a variety of different types of species that still adhere to certain environmental conditions and that still has a far greater range of diversity than might be expected just from a single point of view.
LizardFolk are like onions, …
I'm all for that. In principle, at least. But I want that evolution to stay loyal to the basic lizardfolkiness of the lizardfolk.
Did you play Heroes of Might and Magic? In one of the nigh-endless editions, they have a Swamp city, in which the base race was lizardfolk. They had hydra and green dragons, dragonflies and basilisks. It's called Fortress, I guess - the city.
Anyways, it's all swampy. Deep jungles with fetid swamps and .. it's great. And that I can get behind - build up, create more layers.
The other thing - oh, here are some water creatures, wouldn't it be just super cool and fun if they were earth instead - that just rubs me the wrong way.
Could there be other lizard guys? Yes. Could those be earthy somehow? Absolutely.
It's like if they were elves, right? But let's say there was some other elves, and they don't have long ears, and they just live in villages not the forest, and they till the earth and raise pigs and so on.
'Wait, aren't those humans?!'
'What? No! They rural elves, obviously! Look, we wrote it in a book, so it must be true!'
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I feel like people are (willfully?) ignoring this post, and that is a shame.
I generally don't give a damn about D&D lore, old or new, but upon looking this up, they've never been "amphibian" and adding "some forge powerful bonds with the Elemental Plane of Earth" or whatever barely registers as a change. There's just a couple statblocks for new, unique variations now. They even still list "swamp" as one of the habitats.
This discussion isn't based on what was written in the MM2024, but what was said in the Video DnD released about the MM2024, and what it implies going forward for Lizarddfolk, that they will be from the plain of Earth.
Also I explained further, in the TSR era, when they 1st made Lizardfolk -they had water breathing -needed water for reproduction -didn't use magic. This basically meant they had described a lizardlike amphibian. Which was not what they were intending, they were trying to describe them as Crocodile people. Ironically also not Lizards.
Also for comments made previously.
This is a discussion about lore, going all the way back to the 1970s. This is not a discussion on game mechanics. Game rules can exist separately from world building and game lore. This discussion is about how WotC ignores the world building in such a way they seem like they never even read the older books.
Also before some one says "but ackchyually" I want to reiterate the world building of D&D is over 50 years old, and it does matter for some of us, and these kinds of changes which are usually without any valid reasoning do in fact matter.
I can accept making Ork and Drow player characters species only, however I disagree that they should erase the bad parts of their history, every people on Earth has a dark history and we should keep those in the fiction just like we should in the real world.
Why this bugs me, Lizardfolk had a unique and wonderful culture, and should be treated as Humanoids. Their culture is swamp based, and rejects the trappings of civilization. They have a lot to work with to make something interesting and different. But in their great wisdom the Devs have chosen to forget what made them different, and want to squeeze them into a dwarf shaped box.
This discussion isn't based on what was written in the MM2024, but what was said in the Video DnD released about the MM2024, and what it implies going forward for Lizarddfolk, that they will be from the plain of Earth.
Some comments in a video aren't "canon" and you are probably misinterpretting them. They were just describing the special new statblocks for special new entries in the book.
Why this bugs me, Lizardfolk had a unique and wonderful culture, and should be treated as Humanoids. Their culture is swamp based, and rejects the trappings of civilization. They have a lot to work with to make something interesting and different. But in their great wisdom the Devs have chosen to forget what made them different, and want to squeeze them into a dwarf shaped box.
Ok, where are folk getting the idea that lizardfolk are amphibians?
I think it goes all the way back to Keep on the Borderlands, where they lived in a swamp hut with an underwater entrance. As far as real animals go, a lot of lizardfolk depictions are really closer to crocodile-people, which is definitely swampy.
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Basically this, Lizardfolk had a well established identity and culture. They were something cool and unique, and there was no reason to change them. If they needed to retcon a species with a strong Earth connection, just like the Azer they had Dwarves. Literally Earth Dwarves and Fire Dwarves (azer). it would have made 1 million times more sense.
Fortunately this issue can be fixed by them fast as well 2 types of leader Lizardfolk have elemental connections but nothing in their description makes them the Azer of Plane of Earth as of yet.
Also I think people forget what the plane of Earth is like, its infinite Earth with Caves and Caverns most creatures swim in the Earth but some creatures live in the pockets of air.
Acromos nails the point IMHO with - "Who says it's 'sacrosanct'? But is there any reason to change it?"
Lizardfolk becoming Earth Elementals is a solution in search of a problem. It's a casualty of the heavy-handed elimination of the Humanoid category for enemies in the MM. Humanoids now are only PC species, why?!? THAT to me is the "is there any reason to change it?" problem that has lead to Drow, Orcs, and Duergar disappearing, Gnolls are now Fiends (not the worst change since they've been devolving that direction since 2nd ed), and our little chat here about Lizardfolk.
I, like most people I think, really like much of what was done in the MM25, but bummed about a few things like this. Especially in an edition that is touted as "backwards compatible" to the existing 5e adventures that many of us own and haven't run yet.
From the video they released, the Lizardfolk being connected to rocks more than water feels like Jeremy Crawford needed to find a fourth humanoid to turn into an elemental for Earth for perfect symmetry's sake, grabbed a 10 foot shoe horn and bennnnntttttt that sucker to stick the Lizardfolk in there. It's changes like this that do deserve an eye roll and a "c'mon man!" to at least let them know we are paying attention.
Yes there is - it's theirs, and they wanted to. That's all the reason that's needed.
1) Those Lizardfolk (the humanoid ones) not only still exist, they're still the majority of lizardfolk.
2) Appeal to Tradition Fallacy.
"Ruin", seriously? Melodramatic much?
1) They're still the only lizardfolk.
2) Oh that's rich. You're going 'to fallacy' me? This isn't a logic argument, this is an emotional argument. It's also a logical argument - as in there's no logical reason to do this, as I've clearly established - but tradition matters, and it matters for emotional reasons, as well as for continuity, which is a thing that is not a fallacy.
Sure, if you like. Melodrama? Because I don't like something that - apparently - you do? I feel like I can listen to your opinion, and disagree, without rolling out terms like 'fallacy' or 'melodrama'. I think you're wrong, but that doesn't mean your point of view is invalid. You're right: D&D can do with their IP precisely what they want. But no one is obliged to like it when the stuff they chose to do is so dumb. And I'm sorry, but taking a water dwelling race and making them earth elemental seems to indicate they simply fail at their own lore.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Sure, if "everyone hates it" then it's probably a bad business decision. (Got any evidence of that?) But that doesn't change the fact that "wanting to do it" is still a reason.
1) This is outright false, as reading the MM entry (pg 197) would have shown you:
"While many lizardfolk are Humanoids with varied skills, some forge powerful bonds with the Elemental Plane of Earth, granting them magical connections to the cycle of growth and rebirth."
2) As glad as I am that you're admitting your position isn't rooted in logic, that doesn't increase its validity, quite the opposite.
You're free to like or dislike anything you want, I have no issue with that. But saying lizardfolk are "ruined" because some of them became infused with Earth and the rest are unchanged from what you knew is honestly silly.
I agree that making Lizardfolk the representative humanoid-esque creature for the Plane of Earth is the only one which feels rather forced and schematic. I’ve been generally either happy or neutral about the other re-classified creatures so far. Merfolk and Aarakocra fit quite naturally into the Water and Air planes, respectively. The problem is that the classic Lizardfolk tends to be associated with very “vegetable” environments, whereas the Plane of Earth is preeminently “mineral”.
Classic, swamp-loving Lizardfolk would actually seem much more at home in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze.
Still, real-world lizards are often found in arid landscapes, so it’s not actually too hard to envisage some variants of Lizardfolk that are well-adapted to the Plane of Earth. (They’re just not the “classic” type.)
For evidence - well, there's this thread for a start. But really, no, not really. Do you have any evidence? Is that the sort of discussion this is? Are we submitting evidence before a higher power? I think not.
1) No it isn't. See, I'm refuting the existance of any other lizardfolk. That someone wrote something in some book means nothing to me.
2) None of this is logic. Please. You tried with 'fallacy' before. That simply isn't what we're doing here. This is an exchange of opinion. Logic has to go play somewhere else.
In Denmark we have something called remoulade. I'm unsure of it's existance outside our borders, but certainly I've seen no evidence of it. It's really mayo, but with vegies (notably carrots), and it's yellow. Bright, shiny yellow. It's good for it's thing, but bad in almost every other case. You get remoulade on something that isn't fried fish or maybe fries - it's ruined.
Same with this: You get your elemental nonsense on my lizardfolk - yes, they're ruined. Now I have to throw them out.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
That doesn't leave us with any basis for a rational discussion then, so I'll leave it there. All the best to you.
Considering remoulade is a French word and a very, very famous element of French cuisine, your failure to find evidence is self-inflicted, not a reflection of reality. Like many French traditional dishes, it travelled across the globe, most notably to places like Louisiana or other former French colonies, where it evolved its own, regional flavor profiles and uses. In creole cooking, it can be put on pretty much anything - it can be used anywhere a mayonnaise would be. For example, I’ve seen it on hot dogs in Louisiana - a condiment choice popular in Iceland as well.
I am sure there are pretentious French chefs throwing a hissy fit over a traditional French condiment being used in such a manner - and I am sure they would equally throw a hissy fit over your claiming a French food for Denmark.
That is kind of what you are doing on this thread. You are trying to preserve something you do not own (whether it is lizaedfolk or a condiment your country did not even invent). No one is forcing you to put remoulade on your metaphorical hot dog. The fact that Wizards has added a hot dog with remoulade to their menu really does not really change anything for you - you can just order without the remoulade, cook your hot dog at home, go to a different establishment, or order the older menu item, which they can still serve.
Otherwise, you are just being the worst kind of chef - the kind who feels some kind of ownership over something they cannot really lay claim to, and feels the need to be aggressively pretentious and yell at others for having different preferences. Don’t be that kind of chef.
So .. you can only talk about stuff in books? That sounds .. limiting. Pleasure talking to you, have a nice day =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
In a game design discussion, that's where you find the game's design, yes.
As a native of Louisiana, we sometimes take food from different cultures and places and tweak them accordingly. Acadian french settlers from Canada that migrated from north french region brought their version of the danish condiment and have made various numerous variations of remoulade. So, please be careful with assumptions.
IMHO the lizard folk issue is one of attempting to fit a species into a specific single category that doesn’t exactly fit the diversity that a particular species might adapt to given the inherent nature of the species. Creatures that have a more inherent nature with actual characteristics that can be identified as “earth” based abilities would have been a better choice.
And just because a version of a creature is redesigned doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the official all else means nothing version, just that it becomes a sub-species that has unique characteristics.
Yet another example of elements of the design and development that was given little consideration in the thought department, and attempts to distance itself from established norms that should have been at least acknowledged.
Oh, and certain species of lizards do use water as a means of bodily temperature control, especially in extreme humidity environments. Dryer environments require reptilian species to find ether more humid conditions or find a lower temperature environment to regulate their internal temperature. So tying LizardFolk to a specific plane of existence is not the best approach.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I feel like people are (willfully?) ignoring this post, and that is a shame.
I generally don't give a damn about D&D lore, old or new, but upon looking this up, they've never been "amphibian" and adding "some forge powerful bonds with the Elemental Plane of Earth" or whatever barely registers as a change. There's just a couple statblocks for new, unique variations now. They even still list "swamp" as one of the habitats.
They are having too much fun arguing over nothing to want to have to deal with real stuff. Meanwhile, I’ve been having too much fun reading their comments to worry about anything other than the amphibian nonsense. What we have are 2 new stat locks for additional types of lizardfolk we can use. These 2 have links to the elemental plane of earth. The other thing we have is an advertising video that talks about the two and makes a couple of overblown comments not supported by the actual information ( surprise - it is an advertising video) . The reality is that as far back as 1e lizardfolk (lizard men) were reptilian. If some story made the mistake of calling them amphibian the author was mistaken. As for the new stat locks being elemental I don’t have a problem with adding them to the other 3 (2014) stat locks.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This isn't a game design discussion. This is a lore or fluff discussion. Game design would be mechanics, spells, weapons and armor, dice rolls and modifiers, combat rules - and so on.
As you'll notice, this is about precisely none of that, it's about the background of a race. It's worldbuilding, fluff, lore, story. Now ... do you find stories in books? Yes. Is that exclusive? No! And is any of that objective truth? Also no!
While the discussion of condiment is surely a relevant - and maybe even central one - I'm not going there. It was a joke on my part, I have no particular interest in remoulade (or ketchup or mayo for that matter), and while I realise the word is french, I'm reasonably convinced the french remolade isn't the same as the danish remolade. Same word, different stuff. I could show pictures, but .. in case anyone cares enough, they can look it up themselves.
The above isn't particularly a reply to Paradox_Traveller, more of a general statement =)
If I had been tasked with making elemental lizard dudes, I'd have gone with .. let's say dino-descendant vaguely raptor-like people - let's call them raptorians - who dwell in deserts, hiding under the sand to ambush travellers, and build their camps atop tall windblown mesas. And those I'd say have a strong connection to Elemental Earth. Camps on the mesas, but they have permanent ... not really homes but retreats, shelters, whatever, deep underground, where they lay their eggs, and where their dead are interred, returned to Father Earth. Or some such. Temples, essentially, used mostly for the beginning and the end of life. Maybe they have a special caste of grey-skinned guardians who watch over both.
But swamp dwellers? I just ... don't get it. No matter how I look at it, it just seems dumb.
I mean for heavens sakes ... is my version, that I came up with in seconds, not better? Objectively? I dunno. Never mind =D
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Totally understand the sentiment and I get the context of how different people have different perspectives on how history classifies things, but it does serve a useful purpose in demonstrating how various things can be interpreted differently from the actual historical context and origin of certain things.
Lizard folk have evolved, in relative D&D terms, to encompass a variety of different types of species that still adhere to certain environmental conditions and that still has a far greater range of diversity than might be expected just from a single point of view.
LizardFolk are like onions, …
If LizardFolk were tied more to the physical material plane of “Earth” than the actual Elemental plane of “Earth” then it would make more sense, given the amount of former lore of how an Elemental plane is typically considered to be a single elemental construct that has more hospitable environments near the boundaries between Elemental planes, and the deeper into a single elemental dimension one travels, the less diverse the “fringe” versions of creatures are.
If they changed the word “Elemental” to “Material” , IMHO it would have the effect of what might have been intended while maintaining the prior lore and concept of what a LizardFolk is, a Reptilian version of a species that is improbable to find in cold environments and has adapted to live and survive in various warmer climates. And because of the intricate nature with the Material Plane of “earth”, certain LizardFolk have adapted particular properties of the various elemental properties of the location of where they are commonly found.
But that’s just my two copper on this.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I'm all for that. In principle, at least. But I want that evolution to stay loyal to the basic lizardfolkiness of the lizardfolk.
Did you play Heroes of Might and Magic? In one of the nigh-endless editions, they have a Swamp city, in which the base race was lizardfolk. They had hydra and green dragons, dragonflies and basilisks. It's called Fortress, I guess - the city.
Anyways, it's all swampy. Deep jungles with fetid swamps and .. it's great. And that I can get behind - build up, create more layers.
The other thing - oh, here are some water creatures, wouldn't it be just super cool and fun if they were earth instead - that just rubs me the wrong way.
Could there be other lizard guys? Yes. Could those be earthy somehow? Absolutely.
It's like if they were elves, right? But let's say there was some other elves, and they don't have long ears, and they just live in villages not the forest, and they till the earth and raise pigs and so on.
'Wait, aren't those humans?!'
'What? No! They rural elves, obviously! Look, we wrote it in a book, so it must be true!'
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
This discussion isn't based on what was written in the MM2024, but what was said in the Video DnD released about the MM2024, and what it implies going forward for Lizarddfolk, that they will be from the plain of Earth.
Also I explained further, in the TSR era, when they 1st made Lizardfolk -they had water breathing -needed water for reproduction -didn't use magic. This basically meant they had described a lizardlike amphibian. Which was not what they were intending, they were trying to describe them as Crocodile people. Ironically also not Lizards.
Also for comments made previously.
This is a discussion about lore, going all the way back to the 1970s. This is not a discussion on game mechanics. Game rules can exist separately from world building and game lore. This discussion is about how WotC ignores the world building in such a way they seem like they never even read the older books.
Also before some one says "but ackchyually" I want to reiterate the world building of D&D is over 50 years old, and it does matter for some of us, and these kinds of changes which are usually without any valid reasoning do in fact matter.
I can accept making Ork and Drow player characters species only, however I disagree that they should erase the bad parts of their history, every people on Earth has a dark history and we should keep those in the fiction just like we should in the real world.
Why this bugs me, Lizardfolk had a unique and wonderful culture, and should be treated as Humanoids. Their culture is swamp based, and rejects the trappings of civilization. They have a lot to work with to make something interesting and different. But in their great wisdom the Devs have chosen to forget what made them different, and want to squeeze them into a dwarf shaped box.
Some comments in a video aren't "canon" and you are probably misinterpretting them. They were just describing the special new statblocks for special new entries in the book.
They are humanoids. See https://www.dndbeyond.com/species/1026396-lizardfolk.
I think it goes all the way back to Keep on the Borderlands, where they lived in a swamp hut with an underwater entrance. As far as real animals go, a lot of lizardfolk depictions are really closer to crocodile-people, which is definitely swampy.