I was doing some prep work and had an idea for an upcoming session that takes place in one of the player's Bastion. This seemed simple enough as the player has a basic map of the Bastion and it will be fun to build it using my Dwarven Forge tiles.
However
The DMG says that the player's can make their Hirelings using the same rules the DM used from the DMG to make NPCs. I would say that under normal circumstances there wouldn't be an issue since they wouldn't have a Stat Block because they wouldn't typically get into any real dice rolling combat. But that might happen in a situation where the characters are home doing some research on an item that a rival group wants and said rival group knows exactly where the party is at.
That is where the problem comes up. I don't want them just selecting any NPC stat block that their greedy little hearts desire. I need it to be reasonable so I need to set some kind of easy to follow boundries.
I am thinking that I will set a CR range that they can pick from, but I wanted to know what you would you do?
I think what you've said is a great idea, and there are a few different solutions! As you said, putting a CR range/cap might be a good idea. (I would suggest maybe having a range of CR for each tier of bastion rooms/saying the more advanced ones have a bit higher CR than the previous.) But your solution works great if you're really wanting to preserve the player's autonomy with their bastion without necessarily giving them a game-breaking gotcha moment that you can't anticipate!
I think what you've said is a great idea, and there are a few different solutions! As you said, putting a CR range/cap might be a good idea. (I would suggest maybe having a range of CR for each tier of bastion rooms/saying the more advanced ones have a bit higher CR than the previous.) But your solution works great if you're really wanting to preserve the player's autonomy with their bastion without necessarily giving them a game-breaking gotcha moment that you can't anticipate!
I agree, I think that having a tier system would work really well, and then maybe also have one or two regular old commoner servants running around. But just remember that these are employees, not people who owe a life debt to the players, so they would probably run. Unless they do owe a debt In which case they could fight.
But just remember that these are employees, not people who owe a life debt to the players, so they would probably run. Unless they do owe a debt In which case they could fight.
I don't disagree with this in general, but these are not NPCs under the control of the DM but very specifically the players whose Bastion the event takes place in. I don't think that they would generally risk the lives of their hirelings, BUT that might be a bad assumption on my part lol. I believe they would be less inclined to put them in harms way if the Stat Block they are limited to is on the weaker side if you know what I mean.
I don't read that section on Bastions as saying the PCs can choose entire stat blocks for the hirelings
A player can assign names and personalities to hirelings in their character’s Bastion using the same tools DMs use to create NPCs (see chapter 3).
To me, that reads as the players can use the name/appearance tables in the DMG if they're stumped. You're still picking the stat blocks
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
My read is that players can use the tables for name and personalities that DMs use — not stat blocks, stat blocks are DM’s purview.
I read it as the DM hands them an NPC tracker that lists the Stat blocks, page in the MM, alterations to it, and then the player fills in the rest.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I'd use this advice from the DMG under "NPCs as Party Members":
When you choose a stat block from the Monster Manual for an NPC party member, make sure the NPC doesn’t overshadow the player characters. Use a stat block whose Challenge Rating is no higher than half the characters’ level.
I'd use this advice from the DMG under "NPCs as Party Members":
When you choose a stat block from the Monster Manual for an NPC party member, make sure the NPC doesn’t overshadow the player characters. Use a stat block whose Challenge Rating is no higher than half the characters’ level.
I know this thread is old so you don't need help anymore, but I stumbled upon it and I thought I would put in my 2 cents. Because I've thought about this quite a bit. The DMG does not say that the player can give stat blocks to the NPCs, only give them appearance and personality and such.
These are non combatants, so I would simply give all hirelings the Commoner stat block, allowing the player to pick their proficiency based on their personality, and add racial traits based on their appearance choice. And of course tack on any prerequisites for the Hireling, like an Arcane Study Hireling having Arcana proficiency. Maybe also an extra proficiency if it seems to make sense for the Hireling, like a stablehand having proficiency in Animal Handling (since it would be weird otherwise). Defenders would get the Guard stat block, which I think is fitting both in title and that they're the stat block used in the War Room, with additions being the same.
The only exception I would make to this is if outside of the Bastion, during the regular storyline, the characters befriend a character that already have a stat block and convince them to come work for them, forfeiting their right to choose the personality of the NPC as it is already assigned. If the hireling is not brought on as a Defender, whether the NPC would decide to help out in case of attack would depend on the character and their loyalty and also if they even live at the Bastion or just nearby. If their CR is substantially higher than a Guard I might count them as multiple when it comes to attack calculation or give some other buff. ('Haven't thought that one completely through)
I'd allow them to gift any gear they want to the NPCs in game if they have it. A hireling may not have any magic, but you can still give them magic items that can help them cast. And if they put in the time, I'd let them train an NPC in things they know, too.
My Bastion has a Workshop, a Barracks, a Smithy, an Armory and a Laboratory. The only stat blocks I need are Commoner (Smithy, Workshop, Laboratory) and Guard/Warrior. Those cover the operation and defense of the Bastion per the rules. Any other hirelings should cost extra and bring other benefits as I understand things.
For example, I could offer my protection and support to a local wizard in exchange for spellcasting services but that isn't really part of the Bastion system.
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I was doing some prep work and had an idea for an upcoming session that takes place in one of the player's Bastion. This seemed simple enough as the player has a basic map of the Bastion and it will be fun to build it using my Dwarven Forge tiles.
However
The DMG says that the player's can make their Hirelings using the same rules the DM used from the DMG to make NPCs. I would say that under normal circumstances there wouldn't be an issue since they wouldn't have a Stat Block because they wouldn't typically get into any real dice rolling combat. But that might happen in a situation where the characters are home doing some research on an item that a rival group wants and said rival group knows exactly where the party is at.
That is where the problem comes up. I don't want them just selecting any NPC stat block that their greedy little hearts desire. I need it to be reasonable so I need to set some kind of easy to follow boundries.
I am thinking that I will set a CR range that they can pick from, but I wanted to know what you would you do?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I think what you've said is a great idea, and there are a few different solutions! As you said, putting a CR range/cap might be a good idea. (I would suggest maybe having a range of CR for each tier of bastion rooms/saying the more advanced ones have a bit higher CR than the previous.) But your solution works great if you're really wanting to preserve the player's autonomy with their bastion without necessarily giving them a game-breaking gotcha moment that you can't anticipate!
they/him
Having a range of CRs for each tier is a good Idea! Thanks!
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I agree, I think that having a tier system would work really well, and then maybe also have one or two regular old commoner servants running around. But just remember that these are employees, not people who owe a life debt to the players, so they would probably run. Unless they do owe a debt In which case they could fight.
I don't disagree with this in general, but these are not NPCs under the control of the DM but very specifically the players whose Bastion the event takes place in. I don't think that they would generally risk the lives of their hirelings, BUT that might be a bad assumption on my part lol. I believe they would be less inclined to put them in harms way if the Stat Block they are limited to is on the weaker side if you know what I mean.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I don't read that section on Bastions as saying the PCs can choose entire stat blocks for the hirelings
To me, that reads as the players can use the name/appearance tables in the DMG if they're stumped. You're still picking the stat blocks
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
My read is that players can use the tables for name and personalities that DMs use — not stat blocks, stat blocks are DM’s purview.
I read it as the DM hands them an NPC tracker that lists the Stat blocks, page in the MM, alterations to it, and then the player fills in the rest.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
I'd use this advice from the DMG under "NPCs as Party Members":
I believe this is the correct reading as well. I just want to give my players some options instead. Thank you both <3
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That is a good idea. Thank you for your response.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
I know this thread is old so you don't need help anymore, but I stumbled upon it and I thought I would put in my 2 cents. Because I've thought about this quite a bit. The DMG does not say that the player can give stat blocks to the NPCs, only give them appearance and personality and such.
These are non combatants, so I would simply give all hirelings the Commoner stat block, allowing the player to pick their proficiency based on their personality, and add racial traits based on their appearance choice. And of course tack on any prerequisites for the Hireling, like an Arcane Study Hireling having Arcana proficiency. Maybe also an extra proficiency if it seems to make sense for the Hireling, like a stablehand having proficiency in Animal Handling (since it would be weird otherwise). Defenders would get the Guard stat block, which I think is fitting both in title and that they're the stat block used in the War Room, with additions being the same.
The only exception I would make to this is if outside of the Bastion, during the regular storyline, the characters befriend a character that already have a stat block and convince them to come work for them, forfeiting their right to choose the personality of the NPC as it is already assigned. If the hireling is not brought on as a Defender, whether the NPC would decide to help out in case of attack would depend on the character and their loyalty and also if they even live at the Bastion or just nearby. If their CR is substantially higher than a Guard I might count them as multiple when it comes to attack calculation or give some other buff. ('Haven't thought that one completely through)
I'd allow them to gift any gear they want to the NPCs in game if they have it. A hireling may not have any magic, but you can still give them magic items that can help them cast. And if they put in the time, I'd let them train an NPC in things they know, too.
My Bastion has a Workshop, a Barracks, a Smithy, an Armory and a Laboratory. The only stat blocks I need are Commoner (Smithy, Workshop, Laboratory) and Guard/Warrior. Those cover the operation and defense of the Bastion per the rules. Any other hirelings should cost extra and bring other benefits as I understand things.
For example, I could offer my protection and support to a local wizard in exchange for spellcasting services but that isn't really part of the Bastion system.