And a Maul bumps the damage by about 4 on hit, with a to hit low enough that they’re likely to have 50% or less odds on a frontliner. Chainmail is another matter, but we were only discussing weapon options so that’s also a separate topic.
That's a 54% damage increase, which isn't enough by itself to upgrade CR by a full step, but is also not noise. I mentioned chainmail because the paragraph in question said "go ahead and alter gear", and if you add chainmail it's solidly CR 1 (easily a match for a bugbear).
If monsters are going to have a listed CR, that CR should reasonably accurately reflect their power, because that's what CR is for. For example, the following are all roughly equal in power
32 hp, 5.5 damage (current Tough)
27 hp, 6.5 damage (a d8 weapon, such as a greatclub)
23 hp, 6.5 damage, AC 14 (a d8 weapon and a shield)
23 hp, 7.5 damage (a d10 weapon, such as a glaive)
21 hp, 8.5 damage (a d12 weapon, such as a greataxe)
20 hp, 9 damage (a 2d6 weapon, such as a maul)
A monster with 4d8+4 (22) hit points and choice of martial weapons is a lot easier to swap equipment around and still say "this is balanced" -- a 10% variance is NBD. Alternately, 3d8+6 (19) hit points and slightly more AC. All of these options mean that ranged and melee options are not balanced, whereas for the 2024 tough ranged and melee options are essentially equal, but... that's fine.
I am thinking: The eye of Grumesh is basically an Orc Paladin, right? Is there an old NPC Paladin template we could use for the orcs, and make it fit?
At CR 2? No. However, it's not like a cultist fanatic with its species set to Orc is a bad replacement. The Eye of Gruumsh is somewhat more durable (45 hp vs 45, AC 16 vs 13), but the fanatic does way more damage (between two attacks and spiritual weapon, 33 dpr, vs the Eye doing 16 dpr with one attack and spiritual weapon). The spell lists are slightly different, but adding augury and bless at a cost of hold person is well within the range of minor modifications to a monster.
The main problem conversions are
Orc is a glass cannon, Tough is a wall of meat, so they feel like totally different monsters.
Orc War Chief has a leadership ability, which seems to have completely disappeared as a concept in 2024 (also missing from the knight). Other than that, the Tough Boss appears to be CR-corrected, the war chief is a bit overpowered for CR 4, but they don't otherwise play massively differently.
Damage Per Round. A way of quantifying and comparing a character's potential for dealing damage in combat, if you're into optimizing characters that way.
DPR is also used for monster design, where it’s arguably more relevant- particularly in tier 1- since you want a sweet spot of enough damage to feel engaging, but not so much that you’re seriously threatening players in what should be a level appropriate encounter.
I am thinking: The eye of Grumesh is basically an Orc Paladin, right? Is there an old NPC Paladin template we could use for the orcs, and make it fit?
At CR 2? No. However, it's not like a cultist fanatic with its species set to Orc is a bad replacement. The Eye of Gruumsh is somewhat more durable (45 hp vs 45, AC 16 vs 13), but the fanatic does way more damage (between two attacks and spiritual weapon, 33 dpr, vs the Eye doing 16 dpr with one attack and spiritual weapon). The spell lists are slightly different, but adding augury and bless at a cost of hold person is well within the range of minor modifications to a monster.
The main problem conversions are
Orc is a glass cannon, Tough is a wall of meat, so they feel like totally different monsters.
Orc War Chief has a leadership ability, which seems to have completely disappeared as a concept in 2024 (also missing from the knight). Other than that, the Tough Boss appears to be CR-corrected, the war chief is a bit overpowered for CR 4, but they don't otherwise play massively differently.
Okay, fair point in terms of carrying over the same vibe as ‘14 MM Orcs- looks like a Scout is better as a glass cannon type.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
That's a 54% damage increase, which isn't enough by itself to upgrade CR by a full step, but is also not noise. I mentioned chainmail because the paragraph in question said "go ahead and alter gear", and if you add chainmail it's solidly CR 1 (easily a match for a bugbear).
If monsters are going to have a listed CR, that CR should reasonably accurately reflect their power, because that's what CR is for. For example, the following are all roughly equal in power
A monster with 4d8+4 (22) hit points and choice of martial weapons is a lot easier to swap equipment around and still say "this is balanced" -- a 10% variance is NBD. Alternately, 3d8+6 (19) hit points and slightly more AC. All of these options mean that ranged and melee options are not balanced, whereas for the 2024 tough ranged and melee options are essentially equal, but... that's fine.
I am thinking: The eye of Grumesh is basically an Orc Paladin, right? Is there an old NPC Paladin template we could use for the orcs, and make it fit?
At CR 2? No. However, it's not like a cultist fanatic with its species set to Orc is a bad replacement. The Eye of Gruumsh is somewhat more durable (45 hp vs 45, AC 16 vs 13), but the fanatic does way more damage (between two attacks and spiritual weapon, 33 dpr, vs the Eye doing 16 dpr with one attack and spiritual weapon). The spell lists are slightly different, but adding augury and bless at a cost of hold person is well within the range of minor modifications to a monster.
The main problem conversions are
What does DPR mean?
Damage Per Round. A way of quantifying and comparing a character's potential for dealing damage in combat, if you're into optimizing characters that way.
pronouns: he/she/they
DPR is also used for monster design, where it’s arguably more relevant- particularly in tier 1- since you want a sweet spot of enough damage to feel engaging, but not so much that you’re seriously threatening players in what should be a level appropriate encounter.
Okay, fair point in terms of carrying over the same vibe as ‘14 MM Orcs- looks like a Scout is better as a glass cannon type.