So, I understand why they are moving away from half-races but it does change the pantheon a bit by giving the racial deities more power or am I mistaken? Humans have no racial deity so unless they absorbed the halves the racial pantheon just got super charged. Think we'll get an appearance from Ao to realign the Domains or a Human deity?
Of course I am probably wrong in this but it would make for an interesting adventure. All of a sudden Elven clerics get an extra spell slot and the Humans are like flipping out. Actually, this could be the reason for the Heroic Inspiration on Humans couldn't it? Like they realized the other species just got super strong and now they're extra crafty in the pitch of survival.
So, the thing is, "Racial pantheons" are not actually racially exclusive. There are human worshipers of the Seladrin, and elves who worship Lathander, who is not an elf god. There are Tieflings who follow Dwarven pantheons because one of their parents is a Dwarf ETC. Some of the Racial pantheons would have their follower count reduced from the change. Now a goodly portion of orcs don't worship Gruumsh, because they don't have to. Half-orcs are just Orcs now, and they are not default evil, while Gruumsh is pretty evil.
Not much has actually changed. Also "Half-races" aren't really gone lorewise, they are just not mechanically reflected anymore. You can have a hairy 300 pound dude with a full beard and a human parent but is counted as an Elf because he was made with the elf template, but in world he would still be thought of as a Half-elf.
There is also the fact than many of the most popular gods appear human, so they could be considered the human pantheon. Mystra, Azuth, Sune, Selune, cyric, Lathander, Talona, Tyr, and so on, all appear as humans. That is likely the "human pantheon" but it would more accurately be reffered to as "The Common Pantheon of the Sword coast."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
I mean, we don't know anything about how they're intending to update the FR specifically at this point. The earlier written lore in MToF never really discusses outsiders participating in practices for the racial pantheons, and the ones who are specifically progenitors/patrons of races they spend a lot of effort trying to direct/mold tend to imply they've got their one ideal and they're sticking to it. Quantity over quality has never been indicated to be a universal rule in how FR deities welcome worshippers.
So, the thing is, "Racial pantheons" are not actually racially exclusive. There are human worshipers of the Seladrin, and elves who worship Lathander, who is not an elf god. There are Tieflings who follow Dwarven pantheons because one of their parents is a Dwarf ETC. Some of the Racial pantheons would have their follower count reduced from the change. Now a goodly portion of orcs don't worship Gruumsh, because they don't have to. Half-orcs are just Orcs now, and they are not default evil, while Gruumsh is pretty evil.
Not much has actually changed. Also "Half-races" aren't really gone lorewise, they are just not mechanically reflected anymore. You can have a hairy 300 pound dude with a full beard and a human parent but is counted as an Elf because he was made with the elf template, but in world he would still be thought of as a Half-elf.
There is also the fact than many of the most popular gods appear human, so they could be considered the human pantheon. Mystra, Azuth, Sune, Selune, cyric, Lathander, Talona, Tyr, and so on, all appear as humans. That is likely the "human pantheon" but it would more accurately be reffered to as "The Common Pantheon of the Sword coast."
Solid point I forgot they also oversaw non-racial domains.
I like your interpretation of halves are no longer mechanically represented but maybe still socially stigmatized by some due to still existing. This is much more in line with how it is in real life. People generally adopt one identity or the other but then purist get snooty about it. I've felt those affects so I was keenly looking at half-Drow as an allegory for what I've experienced.
...
Yeah, I am totally on board with this shift. Glad I wrote this thread.
Joking aside, you can generally worship any known diety you want as a cleric or other class unless noted otherwise by your DM.
5E is not that heavy handed on that front. Even Cleric Subclass Domains remain somewhat vague on them.
Perhaps the upcoming Forgotten Realms sourcebooks will include a list of dieties suggesting associated Cleric Subclass Domains for them, if any.
I'm hoping they give a little more guidance on the alignment and domains of deities, the current "do whatever" model in the new PHB/DMG is one of those frustratingly vague points that seems more likely to create headaches for the people who want the guidance rather than enable the creative freedom of the people who would just ignore a few bits of text if it clashed with their idea.
Joking aside, you can generally worship any known diety you want as a cleric or other class unless noted otherwise by your DM.
5E is not that heavy handed on that front. Even Cleric Subclass Domains remain somewhat vague on them.
Perhaps the upcoming Forgotten Realms sourcebooks will include a list of dieties suggesting associated Cleric Subclass Domains for them, if any.
I'm hoping they give a little more guidance on the alignment and domains of deities, the current "do whatever" model in the new PHB/DMG is one of those frustratingly vague points that seems more likely to create headaches for the people who want the guidance rather than enable the creative freedom of the people who would just ignore a few bits of text if it clashed with their idea.
Same. It feels like they skipped over this entire section of gameplay. I mean I would have even gone for the Grayhawk deities in the DMG but nope. (... EDIT: I forgot they did they just put it in Chapter 5 instead of with the Deities section)
All of a sudden Elven clerics get an extra spell slot and the Humans are like flipping out.
Elves don't get an extra spell slot. Do you mean their extra use of a racial spell 1/LR? Even if that was a spell slot (which again, it explicitly isn't,) I don't see why humans would "flip out" about it, even assuming "slots" are a thing that people recognize in-universe somehow.
"Racial Deities" have never been exclusive to a Species. Humans have several massive pantheons, and one of the most powerful single deities as a "race deity"
Also, "Half"-species are not gone for good, D&D just needs a way to bring them back which makes lore sense, and mechanically works while not using past racist terminology designed by TSR.
As for human pantheons, every deity is a Human deity unless they specifically say they are a Species focused deity, and even then they usually have portfolios which align with things humans have interest in. Because the deity isn't worshiped just by name, but by what they have the portfolio in, when people do things aligned with their portfolio they earn power. Goddess of Magic earns divine power though use of the weave of magic. The goddess of harvest gains divine power through people farming. The Gnome god Gond is just as much a god of gnomes as he is the god of Crafts. Creative crafts people no matter the species worship Gond just by being creative. Paint a warhammer mini you are worshiping Gond.
Chauntea is by far one of the most powerful deities in Faerûn because she is the goddess of the Harvest, she is also one of the oldest deities, and worshiped on many worlds in D&D and has gone by many names. She is also the main deity of Humans ... ie the deity most humans actively worship, since the main profession of most humans is farming, and the majority species is human.
But when looking at the species focused pantheons the Seldarine (Elves besides Drow), orc pantheon (the Tribe of He Who Watches), Dark Seldarine (Drow Pantheon, excelled from the Seldarine), and Moradin (Dwarves) there are lots of reasons for a human to follow these pantheons.
To show this lets look at the Drow Pantheon, as lots of humans, non-drow elves, and other humanoids often worship at least one goddess in this pantheon Eilistraee she is the Dark Dancer, and the patron deity of at least one subclass in official 5th edition, can you guess by looking at her portfolio? Beauty, dance, freedom, hunting, moonlight, song, swordwork... hint her worship involves dancing in the moonlight with a one handed sword and nothing else...yes skyclad with the sword. In 1st and 2nd ed, she was exclusive to female Bladesinging Elves and good aligned drow, but these days she takes followers of all genders and species, mostly because she is the least pretentious elf goddess, and because she is the opposite of her mother.
Note - while hunting is in her portfolio, a ranger with a bow does not provide her with worship, as she dislikes ranged weapons, as her mother gave her a cursed bow that almost killed her father. She invented Magic Missile because of it.
I wouldn't put that "every diety is a human deity", in Faerun we has deitys like Chantea, Selune and Shar that aren't human (or any other species) deity, and there's human patheon in Faerûn, like the Mulhorandi pantheon
I wouldn't put that "every diety is a human deity", in Faerun we has deitys like Chantea, Selune and Shar that aren't human (or any other species) deity, and there's human patheon in Faerûn, like the Mulhorandi pantheon
that's how 1st edition put it, and the concepts have not moved away from this idea much in the last 50+ years.
Human Deities ALL unless stated otherwise.
Non-Human Deities always specified.
This is because basically Humans are the vast majority species of the Multiverse, there are more Humans on Faerûn than every other sentient species combined. Most of the deities were born human and apotheosized to godhood. Sure you have AO and a few older deities in the lore, ie Selûne and Shar they are mothers of several important deities even. Selûne is often shown as a Human, and while she's not very powerful in the terms of worship, and her clergy is made up of humans and elves mostly she is considered a Human deity mostly. Shar her twin, and possibly alter ego, is mostly worshiped by denizens of shadow. So she has more dark elf worshipers than humans, but she's still considered a Human deity. This is because Selûne and Shar are a part of the main Faerûn pantheon. And while humans came from Sigil tens of thousands of years ago, and long after the elves settled the land, the elves have their own specific pantheon and mythology which is separate from the main Faerûn pantheon. In fact all species have a main species related "non-human" deity or pantheon. While humans have the overworld pantheon, and several Earthborn pantheons. (yes if the pantheon exists here on Earth then that pantheon is in Faerûn except the big monotheist faiths due to well 'it's not cool to bring major real world religions into your fantasy setting'. Plus some groups would go bonkers if they did.)
A major part of the problem here seems to be trying to think in pantheistic terms rather than monotheistic terms. The species gods would be worshiped/provided prayers/offerings by other species when trying to deal with elves, the storm gods would be placated before a voyage etc. what we are perhaps more interested in would be the personal patron deity for an individual. That would depend tremendously on both how they were raised and how they see themselves fitting into the world. A half Drow rogue raised among humans/a mix of species (ala Waterdeep) wouldn’t pick Lolth just because they are part Drow, they might well pick mask because they are a rogue, etc. in my version of Faerun one of my old PCs attained godhood (years ago) and has picked up the portfolio of the “ mixed bloods” including not just things like half elves and half orcs but also assimar, tieflings and Genasai. Along with several other non species linked portfolios. So if you feel there is a problem there are ways around them as well.
Same. It feels like they skipped over this entire section of gameplay. I mean I would have even gone for the Grayhawk deities in the DMG but nope. (... EDIT: I forgot they did they just put it in Chapter 5 instead of with the Deities section)
I don't see the list of Greyhawk dieties suggesting associated Cleric Subclass Domains for them.
I don't have much faith they will do it for upcoming Forgotten Realms sourcebooks.
Same. It feels like they skipped over this entire section of gameplay. I mean I would have even gone for the Grayhawk deities in the DMG but nope. (... EDIT: I forgot they did they just put it in Chapter 5 instead of with the Deities section)
I don't see the list of Greyhawk dieties suggesting associated Cleric Subclass Domains for them.
I don't have much faith they will do it for upcoming Forgotten Realms sourcebooks.
Yeah, I wish we would have gotten a bit more in D&D One on deities and their domains. I am happy I made this post because some of my confusion was cleared, and I like what was being said. Thanks all!
Yeah, I wish we would have gotten a bit more in D&D One on deities and their domains. I am happy I made this post because some of my confusion was cleared, and I like what was being said. Thanks all!
Deities are tied to specific settings by definition though. It's reasonable that the PHB, as a setting-agnostic book, wouldn't need to have that info.
Yeah, I wish we would have gotten a bit more in D&D One on deities and their domains. I am happy I made this post because some of my confusion was cleared, and I like what was being said. Thanks all!
Deities are tied to specific settings by definition though. It's reasonable that the PHB, as a setting-agnostic book, wouldn't need to have that info.
I mean give players at least an idea and the Forgotten Realms was the traditional setting. In D&D One they're moving back to Grayhawk which is cool, but they could have given us a bit more on their pantheon then. Especially since very few people played a character on Oerth.
Yeah, I wish we would have gotten a bit more in D&D One on deities and their domains. I am happy I made this post because some of my confusion was cleared, and I like what was being said. Thanks all!
Deities are tied to specific settings by definition though. It's reasonable that the PHB, as a setting-agnostic book, wouldn't need to have that info.
Tbf, that's been at least a little bit flexible in the past- Bahamut and Tiamat being the most prominent example that were at least retconned to be prominent figures in two different settings' cosmologies. Some of the writing in books like Tome of Foes also indicated that some pantheons or their heads could transcend particular instances of the Material Plane.
Now, that said there's certainly an argument to be made for stepping back from that and not implying any figures should be considered a default for D&D as a whole, but it's not as though they've never had a deity dip a toe in several different settings.
From what I understand about the half situation, WoTC wanted to put more focus on these species than the hybrids. Makes sense, they redid Orcs more to than Eberon did. Should they have put more detail in them, YES, but that is neither here nor there. After this has had time to cook, we can work on Half Elves, Dwelfs, Orfs, Quarterlings, and the like.
As for Gods, Species focus ones usually cater to that species because that is where they started or created them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't aid practitioners of another species (unless they are particularly racist, looking at you Lolth).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So, I understand why they are moving away from half-races but it does change the pantheon a bit by giving the racial deities more power or am I mistaken? Humans have no racial deity so unless they absorbed the halves the racial pantheon just got super charged. Think we'll get an appearance from Ao to realign the Domains or a Human deity?
Of course I am probably wrong in this but it would make for an interesting adventure. All of a sudden Elven clerics get an extra spell slot and the Humans are like flipping out. Actually, this could be the reason for the Heroic Inspiration on Humans couldn't it? Like they realized the other species just got super strong and now they're extra crafty in the pitch of survival.
Idk just thinking about it.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Eh?
So, the thing is, "Racial pantheons" are not actually racially exclusive. There are human worshipers of the Seladrin, and elves who worship Lathander, who is not an elf god.
There are Tieflings who follow Dwarven pantheons because one of their parents is a Dwarf ETC.
Some of the Racial pantheons would have their follower count reduced from the change. Now a goodly portion of orcs don't worship Gruumsh, because they don't have to. Half-orcs are just Orcs now, and they are not default evil, while Gruumsh is pretty evil.
Not much has actually changed. Also "Half-races" aren't really gone lorewise, they are just not mechanically reflected anymore. You can have a hairy 300 pound dude with a full beard and a human parent but is counted as an Elf because he was made with the elf template, but in world he would still be thought of as a Half-elf.
There is also the fact than many of the most popular gods appear human, so they could be considered the human pantheon.
Mystra, Azuth, Sune, Selune, cyric, Lathander, Talona, Tyr, and so on, all appear as humans. That is likely the "human pantheon" but it would more accurately be reffered to as "The Common Pantheon of the Sword coast."
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
Dieties from Human or other species are still available to all, opting for more open approach possible this to gain as much worshippers as they can.
They take just about anyone from Realms locals, Underdark dwellers, Spelljammers visitors, monsters, their grandma, anybody
I mean, we don't know anything about how they're intending to update the FR specifically at this point. The earlier written lore in MToF never really discusses outsiders participating in practices for the racial pantheons, and the ones who are specifically progenitors/patrons of races they spend a lot of effort trying to direct/mold tend to imply they've got their one ideal and they're sticking to it. Quantity over quality has never been indicated to be a universal rule in how FR deities welcome worshippers.
Joking aside, you can generally worship any known diety you want as a cleric or other class unless noted otherwise by your DM.
5E is not that heavy handed on that front. Even Cleric Subclass Domains remain somewhat vague on them.
Perhaps the upcoming Forgotten Realms sourcebooks will include a list of dieties suggesting associated Cleric Subclass Domains for them, if any.
Solid point I forgot they also oversaw non-racial domains.
I like your interpretation of halves are no longer mechanically represented but maybe still socially stigmatized by some due to still existing. This is much more in line with how it is in real life. People generally adopt one identity or the other but then purist get snooty about it. I've felt those affects so I was keenly looking at half-Drow as an allegory for what I've experienced.
...
Yeah, I am totally on board with this shift. Glad I wrote this thread.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
I'm hoping they give a little more guidance on the alignment and domains of deities, the current "do whatever" model in the new PHB/DMG is one of those frustratingly vague points that seems more likely to create headaches for the people who want the guidance rather than enable the creative freedom of the people who would just ignore a few bits of text if it clashed with their idea.
Same. It feels like they skipped over this entire section of gameplay. I mean I would have even gone for the Grayhawk deities in the DMG but nope. (... EDIT: I forgot they did they just put it in Chapter 5 instead of with the Deities section)
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
...What? Your train of logic here left me (and seemingly others) at the station. Why would racial pantheons get "supercharged?"
Keep in mind too that half-races still exist in the fiction, they just don't have unique game mechanics anymore.
Elves don't get an extra spell slot. Do you mean their extra use of a racial spell 1/LR? Even if that was a spell slot (which again, it explicitly isn't,) I don't see why humans would "flip out" about it, even assuming "slots" are a thing that people recognize in-universe somehow.
Using only the Faerûnian pantheon for this.
So many wrong assumptions.
"Racial Deities" have never been exclusive to a Species. Humans have several massive pantheons, and one of the most powerful single deities as a "race deity"
Also, "Half"-species are not gone for good, D&D just needs a way to bring them back which makes lore sense, and mechanically works while not using past racist terminology designed by TSR.
As for human pantheons, every deity is a Human deity unless they specifically say they are a Species focused deity, and even then they usually have portfolios which align with things humans have interest in. Because the deity isn't worshiped just by name, but by what they have the portfolio in, when people do things aligned with their portfolio they earn power. Goddess of Magic earns divine power though use of the weave of magic. The goddess of harvest gains divine power through people farming. The Gnome god Gond is just as much a god of gnomes as he is the god of Crafts. Creative crafts people no matter the species worship Gond just by being creative. Paint a warhammer mini you are worshiping Gond.
Chauntea is by far one of the most powerful deities in Faerûn because she is the goddess of the Harvest, she is also one of the oldest deities, and worshiped on many worlds in D&D and has gone by many names. She is also the main deity of Humans ... ie the deity most humans actively worship, since the main profession of most humans is farming, and the majority species is human.
But when looking at the species focused pantheons the Seldarine (Elves besides Drow), orc pantheon (the Tribe of He Who Watches), Dark Seldarine (Drow Pantheon, excelled from the Seldarine), and Moradin (Dwarves) there are lots of reasons for a human to follow these pantheons.
To show this lets look at the Drow Pantheon, as lots of humans, non-drow elves, and other humanoids often worship at least one goddess in this pantheon Eilistraee she is the Dark Dancer, and the patron deity of at least one subclass in official 5th edition, can you guess by looking at her portfolio? Beauty, dance, freedom, hunting, moonlight, song, swordwork... hint her worship involves dancing in the moonlight with a one handed sword and nothing else...yes skyclad with the sword. In 1st and 2nd ed, she was exclusive to female Bladesinging Elves and good aligned drow, but these days she takes followers of all genders and species, mostly because she is the least pretentious elf goddess, and because she is the opposite of her mother.
Note - while hunting is in her portfolio, a ranger with a bow does not provide her with worship, as she dislikes ranged weapons, as her mother gave her a cursed bow that almost killed her father. She invented Magic Missile because of it.
I wouldn't put that "every diety is a human deity", in Faerun we has deitys like Chantea, Selune and Shar that aren't human (or any other species) deity, and there's human patheon in Faerûn, like the Mulhorandi pantheon
that's how 1st edition put it, and the concepts have not moved away from this idea much in the last 50+ years.
Human Deities ALL unless stated otherwise.
Non-Human Deities always specified.
This is because basically Humans are the vast majority species of the Multiverse, there are more Humans on Faerûn than every other sentient species combined. Most of the deities were born human and apotheosized to godhood. Sure you have AO and a few older deities in the lore, ie Selûne and Shar they are mothers of several important deities even. Selûne is often shown as a Human, and while she's not very powerful in the terms of worship, and her clergy is made up of humans and elves mostly she is considered a Human deity mostly. Shar her twin, and possibly alter ego, is mostly worshiped by denizens of shadow. So she has more dark elf worshipers than humans, but she's still considered a Human deity. This is because Selûne and Shar are a part of the main Faerûn pantheon. And while humans came from Sigil tens of thousands of years ago, and long after the elves settled the land, the elves have their own specific pantheon and mythology which is separate from the main Faerûn pantheon. In fact all species have a main species related "non-human" deity or pantheon. While humans have the overworld pantheon, and several Earthborn pantheons. (yes if the pantheon exists here on Earth then that pantheon is in Faerûn except the big monotheist faiths due to well 'it's not cool to bring major real world religions into your fantasy setting'. Plus some groups would go bonkers if they did.)
A major part of the problem here seems to be trying to think in pantheistic terms rather than monotheistic terms. The species gods would be worshiped/provided prayers/offerings by other species when trying to deal with elves, the storm gods would be placated before a voyage etc. what we are perhaps more interested in would be the personal patron deity for an individual. That would depend tremendously on both how they were raised and how they see themselves fitting into the world. A half Drow rogue raised among humans/a mix of species (ala Waterdeep) wouldn’t pick Lolth just because they are part Drow, they might well pick mask because they are a rogue, etc.
in my version of Faerun one of my old PCs attained godhood (years ago) and has picked up the portfolio of the “ mixed bloods” including not just things like half elves and half orcs but also assimar, tieflings and Genasai. Along with several other non species linked portfolios. So if you feel there is a problem there are ways around them as well.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I don't see the list of Greyhawk dieties suggesting associated Cleric Subclass Domains for them.
I don't have much faith they will do it for upcoming Forgotten Realms sourcebooks.
Yeah, I wish we would have gotten a bit more in D&D One on deities and their domains. I am happy I made this post because some of my confusion was cleared, and I like what was being said. Thanks all!
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Deities are tied to specific settings by definition though. It's reasonable that the PHB, as a setting-agnostic book, wouldn't need to have that info.
I mean give players at least an idea and the Forgotten Realms was the traditional setting. In D&D One they're moving back to Grayhawk which is cool, but they could have given us a bit more on their pantheon then. Especially since very few people played a character on Oerth.
"Life is Cast by Random Dice"
Burn my candle twice.
I have done my life justice
Against random dice.
Tbf, that's been at least a little bit flexible in the past- Bahamut and Tiamat being the most prominent example that were at least retconned to be prominent figures in two different settings' cosmologies. Some of the writing in books like Tome of Foes also indicated that some pantheons or their heads could transcend particular instances of the Material Plane.
Now, that said there's certainly an argument to be made for stepping back from that and not implying any figures should be considered a default for D&D as a whole, but it's not as though they've never had a deity dip a toe in several different settings.
From what I understand about the half situation, WoTC wanted to put more focus on these species than the hybrids. Makes sense, they redid Orcs more to than Eberon did. Should they have put more detail in them, YES, but that is neither here nor there. After this has had time to cook, we can work on Half Elves, Dwelfs, Orfs, Quarterlings, and the like.
As for Gods, Species focus ones usually cater to that species because that is where they started or created them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't aid practitioners of another species (unless they are particularly racist, looking at you Lolth).