For instance, if you shaped water into a dome, would it retain that shape? Or collapse instantly under its own weight as soon as you're done. If you shaped mist into a cube, would you have a cube of solid mist you could pick up and move? or would it disperse if you waved your hand through it. Or would it be somewhere in the middle, where it would disperse like normal, but the mist retains the "memory" of its shape and would settle back into that shape for as long as the spell remained active.
Yes, it says it "retains its shape" for an hour, but what does that actually MEAN?
Retains shape no matter what? Could you build steps of smoke and walk up them?
Is it more of a sand castle/soap bubble, where the magic force keeps it in the shape until some external force disrupts it and it collapses.
Or even somewhere in the middle, where something could "knock it over" but it'll instantly retake the shape as long as the magic lasts.
Largely up to the DM, but since this is a cantrip I doubt many could go for the "the shape is completely immutable to the point you can make steps, etc." with it.
First, I’d point out that the retains its shape feature has to be an amount that can fit in a 1-foot cube, so whatever you make will be pretty small. Beyond that, I’d go with the ol’ spells only for what they say. So you could make a dome of water, and it would stay a dome for an hour. But the spell doesn’t say anything about making that element solid, so it’s not.
If we go with the smoke steps example, I’d probably rule you could certainly make smoke that looked like steps. But if you tried to climb them, your foot would just pass through it. I’d probably say it would re-form after you removed your foot, as well. The real tricky one would be something like a thin wall of dirt as a way to provide some degree of cover. Because it seems like that could be RAW, but also may be too strong for a cantrip.
Depends on how you did it. If you took that 1sq foot of material and spread it out an area with a thickness of 1cm, then you could cover an area 2.83 sq meters in size. That's enough space for a normal sized person to pretend to be a mount, or conceal a passageway in a cave.
This is really one of those things that requires some creativity to use.
For instance, wrapping a band of dirt or fire around someone's eyes to blind them, "sculpting" a small ditch under their feet to trip them. Suddenly closing (or opening) a door while you're being chased. Etc etc. There's a lot of potential here, but that's why I'm trying to get a grasp for its limitations. The effects might be "small' as a cantrip, but there's a lot of versatility here for the creative.
Depends on how you did it. If you took that 1sq foot of material and spread it out an area with a thickness of 1cm, then you could cover an area 2.83 sq meters in size. That's enough space for a normal sized person to pretend to be a mount, or conceal a passageway in a cave.
You get 1 cubic foot of area to shape in, you cannot expand it beyond that space.
This is really one of those things that requires some creativity to use.
For instance, wrapping a band of dirt or fire around someone's eyes to blind them, "sculpting" a small ditch under their feet to trip them. Suddenly closing (or opening) a door while you're being chased. Etc etc. There's a lot of potential here, but that's why I'm trying to get a grasp for its limitations. The effects might be "small' as a cantrip, but there's a lot of versatility here for the creative.
A spell does what it says it does and nothing more. This spell does not say you can apply the material you work with to a creature in any way, certainly not to the point of inflicting a condition. Ergo, by RAW and most DM's interpretations of RAI, you cannot do these things with it.
You get 1 cubic foot of area to shape in, you cannot expand it beyond that space.
That's not what the spell says. It says you can shape amount of matieral that can fit into a 1 foot cube. That's a quantity limit, how MUCH of something can be shaped. Not a distance limit.
A spell does what it says it does and nothing more. This spell does not say you can apply the material you work with to a creature in any way, certainly not to the point of inflicting a condition. Ergo, by RAW and most DM's interpretations of RAI, you cannot do these things with it.
You're not being creative with it. You're not "applying" it to anything. You're shaping it into a form that happens to in the space around someone's face. That fits perfectly well into what the spell says it can do. Its no diffrent from creating an obstacle, or throwing a object at or hitting someone with Telekinesis (which by your logic you wouldn't be able to do, sicne the spell doesn't specifically outline it).
As for "not being able to cause a condition", the spell it's causing the condition. Its what you're maipulating that is.
Remeber, this isn't magic fire like Produce Flames that says its harmless until thrown. Nor is it Control Flame where how you can control the flames and what effect they have are lined out. Here you're directly shaping real fine into a crude shape as you wish. Same for the rest of the elements. Sure, you're heavily limited by the AMOUNT of what you can manipulate, but its a lot more flexable with WHAT you can do with it.
A spell does what it says it does and nothing more. This spell does not say you can apply the material you work with to a creature in any way, certainly not to the point of inflicting a condition. Ergo, by RAW and most DM's interpretations of RAI, you cannot do these things with it.
You're not being creative with it. You're not "applying" it to anything. You're shaping it into a form that happens to in the space around someone's face. That fits perfectly well into what the spell says it can do. Its no diffrent from creating an obstacle, or throwing a object at or hitting someone with Telekinesis (which by your logic you wouldn't be able to do, sicne the spell doesn't specifically outline it).
As for "not being able to cause a condition", the spell it's causing the condition. Its what you're maipulating that is.
Remeber, this isn't magic fire like Produce Flames that says its harmless until thrown. Nor is it Control Flame where how you can control the flames and what effect they have are lined out. Here you're directly shaping real fine into a crude shape as you wish. Same for the rest of the elements. Sure, you're heavily limited by the AMOUNT of what you can manipulate, but its a lot more flexable with WHAT you can do with it.
I have to agree with ace of rogues here. These ideas are way too strong for a cantrip. It’s like the people who pop up occasionally wanting to use control water to drown someone, or move earth to entomb them. Those are just beyond the limits of the spell, and much too strong for a cantrip.
A spell does what it says it does and nothing more. This spell does not say you can apply the material you work with to a creature in any way, certainly not to the point of inflicting a condition. Ergo, by RAW and most DM's interpretations of RAI, you cannot do these things with it.
You're not being creative with it. You're not "applying" it to anything. You're shaping it into a form that happens to in the space around someone's face. That fits perfectly well into what the spell says it can do. Its no different from creating an obstacle, or throwing a object at or hitting someone with Telekinesis (which by your logic you wouldn't be able to do, sicne the spell doesn't specifically outline it).
As for "not being able to cause a condition", the spell it's causing the condition. Its what you're maipulating that is.
Remeber, this isn't magic fire like Produce Flames that says its harmless until thrown. Nor is it Control Flame where how you can control the flames and what effect they have are lined out. Here you're directly shaping real fine into a crude shape as you wish. Same for the rest of the elements. Sure, you're heavily limited by the AMOUNT of what you can manipulate, but its a lot more flexable with WHAT you can do with it.
I have to agree with ace of rogues here. These ideas are way too strong for a cantrip. It’s like the people who pop up occasionally wanting to use control water to drown someone, or move earth to entomb them. Those are just beyond the limits of the spell, and much too strong for a cantrip.
Both of those spells have very specific reasons why they can't be use in that way. (Move Earth being slow, and Control Water having set methods of manipulation)
Elementalism is cantrip because its effect isn't pronouced and its range constrained. and that's fine. But If just "because its a cantrip" was the issue, people wouldn't be able to do have the crazy things they do with any number of other cantrips with some creativity.
I get there's a balancing issue with it being a game, but you've also got to concider what's reasonbly doable in the setting, which is also why Its important to establish WHAT something can actually do or what something means (Like in this instance of "is Sculpt Element's 1-foot cube a measurement of volume or distance?").
That's not to say the spell itself isn't poorly worded (otherwise this wouldn't be in question) or doesn't need work.
Rather its about establishing what is happening. Just personally, I don't think the excuse of "because its a cantrip" is really enough to justify. But that's me.
This is really one of those things that requires some creativity to use.
For instance, wrapping a band of dirt or fire around someone's eyes to blind them, "sculpting" a small ditch under their feet to trip them. Suddenly closing (or opening) a door while you're being chased. Etc etc. There's a lot of potential here, but that's why I'm trying to get a grasp for its limitations. The effects might be "small' as a cantrip, but there's a lot of versatility here for the creative.
You can't move the element at all, so the blindfold idea is out.
That ditch would be way to small to trip someone.
Again, you can't move the element at will, so I fail to see how you could open a door with this.
This is really one of those things that requires some creativity to use.
For instance, wrapping a band of dirt or fire around someone's eyes to blind them, "sculpting" a small ditch under their feet to trip them. Suddenly closing (or opening) a door while you're being chased. Etc etc. There's a lot of potential here, but that's why I'm trying to get a grasp for its limitations. The effects might be "small' as a cantrip, but there's a lot of versatility here for the creative.
You can't move the element at all, so the blindfold idea is out.
That ditch would be way to small to trip someone.
Again, you can't move the element at will, so I fail to see how you could open a door with this.
1: Now THAT is a reasonable argument. You could counter with Sculpting the shape to reach (say by throwing dirt, or reaching shaping it when they're prone,) but that's a case by case situation
2: Even if you went with pure "1-foot cube" interpretation that's plenty to trip most people.
3: That's literally one of the examples given in Beckon Air (EDIT: Ok, CLOSING them. But as its given as an example, its reasonable you could do the same to open an unlatched door/window)
This is really one of those things that requires some creativity to use.
For instance, wrapping a band of dirt or fire around someone's eyes to blind them, "sculpting" a small ditch under their feet to trip them. Suddenly closing (or opening) a door while you're being chased. Etc etc. There's a lot of potential here, but that's why I'm trying to get a grasp for its limitations. The effects might be "small' as a cantrip, but there's a lot of versatility here for the creative.
You can't move the element at all, so the blindfold idea is out.
That ditch would be way to small to trip someone.
Again, you can't move the element at will, so I fail to see how you could open a door with this.
1: Now THAT is a reasonable argument. You could counter with Sculpting the shape to reach (say by throwing dirt, or reaching shaping it when they're prone,) but that's a case by case situation
2: Even if you went with pure "1-foot cube" interpretation that's plenty to trip most people.
3: That's literally one of the examples given in Beckon Air (EDIT: Ok, CLOSING them. But as its given as an example, its reasonable you could do the same to open an unlatched door/window)
For 2, that is really up to DM interpretation, especially because they technically aren't even moving when you cast the spell.
Also, about number 3, aren't we talking about the sculpt element option?
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For instance, if you shaped water into a dome, would it retain that shape? Or collapse instantly under its own weight as soon as you're done. If you shaped mist into a cube, would you have a cube of solid mist you could pick up and move? or would it disperse if you waved your hand through it. Or would it be somewhere in the middle, where it would disperse like normal, but the mist retains the "memory" of its shape and would settle back into that shape for as long as the spell remained active.
Yes, it says it "retains its shape" for an hour, but what does that actually MEAN?
Retains shape no matter what? Could you build steps of smoke and walk up them?
Is it more of a sand castle/soap bubble, where the magic force keeps it in the shape until some external force disrupts it and it collapses.
Or even somewhere in the middle, where something could "knock it over" but it'll instantly retake the shape as long as the magic lasts.
Largely up to the DM, but since this is a cantrip I doubt many could go for the "the shape is completely immutable to the point you can make steps, etc." with it.
First, I’d point out that the retains its shape feature has to be an amount that can fit in a 1-foot cube, so whatever you make will be pretty small.
Beyond that, I’d go with the ol’ spells only for what they say. So you could make a dome of water, and it would stay a dome for an hour. But the spell doesn’t say anything about making that element solid, so it’s not.
If we go with the smoke steps example, I’d probably rule you could certainly make smoke that looked like steps. But if you tried to climb them, your foot would just pass through it. I’d probably say it would re-form after you removed your foot, as well.
The real tricky one would be something like a thin wall of dirt as a way to provide some degree of cover. Because it seems like that could be RAW, but also may be too strong for a cantrip.
A 1 ft cube is unlikely to meet the standards of even half cover on a typical PC, so it's a no-go there.
Depends on how you did it. If you took that 1sq foot of material and spread it out an area with a thickness of 1cm, then you could cover an area 2.83 sq meters in size. That's enough space for a normal sized person to pretend to be a mount, or conceal a passageway in a cave.
This is really one of those things that requires some creativity to use.
For instance, wrapping a band of dirt or fire around someone's eyes to blind them, "sculpting" a small ditch under their feet to trip them. Suddenly closing (or opening) a door while you're being chased. Etc etc. There's a lot of potential here, but that's why I'm trying to get a grasp for its limitations. The effects might be "small' as a cantrip, but there's a lot of versatility here for the creative.
You get 1 cubic foot of area to shape in, you cannot expand it beyond that space.
A spell does what it says it does and nothing more. This spell does not say you can apply the material you work with to a creature in any way, certainly not to the point of inflicting a condition. Ergo, by RAW and most DM's interpretations of RAI, you cannot do these things with it.
That's not what the spell says. It says you can shape amount of matieral that can fit into a 1 foot cube. That's a quantity limit, how MUCH of something can be shaped. Not a distance limit.
You're not being creative with it. You're not "applying" it to anything. You're shaping it into a form that happens to in the space around someone's face. That fits perfectly well into what the spell says it can do. Its no diffrent from creating an obstacle, or throwing a object at or hitting someone with Telekinesis (which by your logic you wouldn't be able to do, sicne the spell doesn't specifically outline it).
As for "not being able to cause a condition", the spell it's causing the condition. Its what you're maipulating that is.
Remeber, this isn't magic fire like Produce Flames that says its harmless until thrown. Nor is it Control Flame where how you can control the flames and what effect they have are lined out.
Here you're directly shaping real fine into a crude shape as you wish. Same for the rest of the elements. Sure, you're heavily limited by the AMOUNT of what you can manipulate, but its a lot more flexable with WHAT you can do with it.
I have to agree with ace of rogues here. These ideas are way too strong for a cantrip. It’s like the people who pop up occasionally wanting to use control water to drown someone, or move earth to entomb them. Those are just beyond the limits of the spell, and much too strong for a cantrip.
Both of those spells have very specific reasons why they can't be use in that way. (Move Earth being slow, and Control Water having set methods of manipulation)
Elementalism is cantrip because its effect isn't pronouced and its range constrained. and that's fine. But If just "because its a cantrip" was the issue, people wouldn't be able to do have the crazy things they do with any number of other cantrips with some creativity.
I get there's a balancing issue with it being a game, but you've also got to concider what's reasonbly doable in the setting, which is also why Its important to establish WHAT something can actually do or what something means (Like in this instance of "is Sculpt Element's 1-foot cube a measurement of volume or distance?").
That's not to say the spell itself isn't poorly worded (otherwise this wouldn't be in question) or doesn't need work.
Rather its about establishing what is happening.
Just personally, I don't think the excuse of "because its a cantrip" is really enough to justify. But that's me.
1: Now THAT is a reasonable argument. You could counter with Sculpting the shape to reach (say by throwing dirt, or reaching shaping it when they're prone,) but that's a case by case situation
2: Even if you went with pure "1-foot cube" interpretation that's plenty to trip most people.
3: That's literally one of the examples given in Beckon Air (EDIT: Ok, CLOSING them. But as its given as an example, its reasonable you could do the same to open an unlatched door/window)
For 2, that is really up to DM interpretation, especially because they technically aren't even moving when you cast the spell.
Also, about number 3, aren't we talking about the sculpt element option?