I won't say no one because I'm sure there's a niche interest in it, but I expect the vast majority of people looking to weapon attack on a caster aren't looking to use ranged for it. Just isn't a substantially different experience from using most of the cantrips.
It's why I recommended Shield be accessible to all Psions.
The one subclass can keep the bonus to Shield.
Also, I pushed for the Metamorph Spell List to include Smites to incentivize usage of the weapon.
Shield isn't a solution because at early levels you'd need to commit most of your slots to it, and at late levels there's too many high attack or non-attack roll threats.
I wasn't saying the current setup is in a good place for it, but if Wizards can Gish there's no fundamental reason why there can't be a subclass to support this if Psion makes it, and the post I replied to already acknowledged that the subclass needed better defense.
I didn't mean to imply that you called it a gish power house. Just what I said: I can't see it work in that role.
It seems to have ... parts of something useful, but none of them mesh into a greater whole? Like the stealth casting thing: That would be really neat if it combined with anything else, but it just doesn't. The psion can get a single spell of before combat, then it's no longer stealthy, it's just a caster. It has tools to do martial things - offensively - but it has zero staying power. It has some good spells, but ... I dunno, to me it lacks variety, and all those spells are situational.
in the end - to me - it just doesn't do anything useful. Sure, in a void, but in the actual game, it's not even second best at anything. It's just mediocre at everything.
I've played an ironically mediocre bard for fun - but the truth is that bards aren't really mediocre at all, they are ... highly specialized generalists, or something. But I can't do anything similar with the psion - although maybe that's a function of my lack of imagination.
If you take biofeedback and psionic backlash you won't splatter instantly, but they don't scale super well and there's not much about the metamorph itself (they do have access to bonus action cure wound) to help.
I'll have to look at that, specifically. Of course I could have done that before replying, but ... well, time is a ressource.
Anyways, it doesn't matter to me how they scale. No one plays high level anyways, so if they have a nice spike at like level 8 or 10 or something ... then that's worth.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I won't say no one because I'm sure there's a niche interest in it, but I expect the vast majority of people looking to weapon attack on a caster aren't looking to use ranged for it. Just isn't a substantially different experience from using most of the cantrips.
I know, and I'm not saying I would be at all happy if Metamorph when to print as-is. Just saying that the weak defenses in this iteration don't make it totally useless either.
Shield isn't a solution because at early levels you'd need to commit most of your slots to it, and at late levels there's too many high attack or non-attack roll threats.
Agreed - It needs Shield and a more passive defense, whether that's armor proficiency or an AC-buffing mode. Bladesinger gets both, EK gets both, and Valor Bard gets both, so there's no reason to deprive Metamorph.
Anyways, it doesn't matter to me how they scale. No one plays high level anyways, so if they have a nice spike at like level 8 or 10 or something ... then that's worth.
"Doesn't scale well" means "good at level 1, doesn't improve nearly as fast as monster damage output".
"Doesn't scale well" means "good at level 1, doesn't improve nearly as fast as monster damage output".
That's not the only interpretation. But yes, that's one. I see it as a variable - certain classes gain more power over the 20 levels they can gain, others less. But the difference will obviously be most visible at level 20. If you chose to multiclass, you almost certainly delay certain break points, in the hope of scaling harder, later (well, there's other reasons, but that's one).
Anyways, it's certainly possible to have less than optimal scaling, but not be completely useless at level 8.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The following spells should be added to the Psion spell list:
Alarm
Bigby's Hand
Shield
Unseen Servant
The Psion needs another cantrip. I'd suggest adding them into the subclasses:
Metamorph: Primal Savagery
Psi Warper: Thunderclap
Psykinetic: Sword Burst
Telepath: Vicious Mockery
The Metamorph needs a few adjustments to Organic Weapon feature
Whenever you make an attack as part of the Attack action or an Opportunity Attack, you can reform your free hand into one of the following organic weapons: Bone Blade, Flesh Maul, or Viscera Launcher.
During a short rest, you can merge or unmerge a single magic weapon of certain types into the organic weapon, allowing the organic weapon to benefit from the enchantment but not weapon mastery. Attunement still is required, if the magic weapon requires it.
Bone Blade. You can merge a magic shortsword or rapier into the Bone Blade.
Flesh Maul. You can merge a magic flail, mace, or war hammer into the Flesh Maul.
Viscera Launcher. You can merge a magic crossbow into the Viscera Launcher.
Reading the comments here I was very worried, but honestly the only problem I see is the lack of verbal components, and the only unsatisfying thing are the Psionic Disciplines. They are modeled after the Battle Master's Disciplines, when they should be modeled after Invocations (and therefore much more powerful).
Nah, it's a full caster, not a warlock caster, so it's more like metamagic. Looking over the disciplines:
Biofeedback is likely amazing at low levels (at level 1, being able to get 1d6+3 temp hit points 4x/day by casting prestidigitation is great), but its scaling is decidedly questionable (1d12+5 hit points at level 20 is... not so amazing).
Destructive Thoughts has a problem: a vast shortage of conjuration or evocation spells that have saving throws.
Devilish Tongue: it makes up for these being Charisma skills on an Intelligence-based caster.
Ego Whip requires enemies to be provoking opportunity attacks from you, and you to have no better use for your reaction (such as casting shield, since you're a full caster with d6 hit dice in melee combat).
Expanded Awareness: it makes up for these being Wisdom skills on an Intelligence-based caster.
Id Insinuation: powerful but expensive. Probably a high level option only.
Inerrant Aim: another 'good at low level' option; high levels aren't going to be making all that many attack rolls.
Psionic Backlash: what exactly are you subtracting your psionic dice from? I'm guessing damage, but the text should say. Another 'quite good at low level, miserable scaling' ability.
Psionic Guards: situational, but quite good when it applies.
Swift Precognition: I predict this being used to cast true strike. Which is solidly useful but may not be what the devs intended.
Tactical Mind: hey, it's a bonus to skills that actually use Intelligence.
I would note that abilities that are quite good at low level but don't scale well are kind of fine.
They are trying to bring back parts of 1st/2nd ed psionics with the 3.x ed psionics. It is the best they can do right now without pissinh people who don't like psionics at all off and use a megaphone to seem like they are a larger group then they actually are. Psionics has always been in d&d since originally d&d and chainmail in 1970s. D&d was based on fantasy of all types that includes science fantasy. There is a different between science fiction which is more like star trek and doctor who and science fantasy which is more like hp lovecraft, pulp fiction books, pulp magazines, spiritualist fiction of the Victorian age and edwardian age. They are fantasy with psionics and can take place in any time period. Psychics and psionics has always been in with fantasy, just some people just don't like the ideas of psychics and psionics. I am a huge fan of psionics and enjoy the psion and they did a respectable version of updating the 2nd ed psion, if this helps brings a new world that is a lighter version of darksun minus the slavery, the keeping track of your resources, going ce when thirsty, but keeps the psionics, gladiator, preserver classes, mul, ahasian thri-kreen, athasian half-giant, Athasian dwarf, athasian elf, athasian halfling in a new world that people would accept. Then I am all for it; if it is only the psion class I am still all for it.
The following spells should be added to the Psion spell list:
Alarm
Bigby's Hand
Shield
Unseen Servant
The Psion needs another cantrip. I'd suggest adding them into the subclasses:
Metamorph: Primal Savagery
Psi Warper: Thunderclap
Psykinetic: Sword Burst
Telepath: Vicious Mockery
The Metamorph needs a few adjustments to Organic Weapon feature
Whenever you make an attack as part of the Attack action or an Opportunity Attack, you can reform your free hand into one of the following organic weapons: Bone Blade, Flesh Maul, or Viscera Launcher.
During a short rest, you can merge or unmerge a single magic weapon of certain types into the organic weapon, allowing the organic weapon to benefit from the enchantment but not weapon mastery. Attunement still is required, if the magic weapon requires it.
Bone Blade. You can merge a magic shortsword or rapier into the Bone Blade.
Flesh Maul. You can merge a magic flail, mace, or war hammer into the Flesh Maul.
Viscera Launcher. You can merge a magic crossbow into the Viscera Launcher.
I would like to see is adding the elemental Kinetists
Energy ( you choose when manifesting between thunder, fire, cold, electric, psychic, or force damage. )
Energy damage and saves
( force ( str save) d6 + 1/die, psychic ( will save ) d6 +1/die, thunder ( str save ) d6 + 1/die, electric ( dex save ) d6 + 1/die, fire ( dex save ) d6 + 1/die, cold ( con save ) d6 +1/die )
Energy missle, energy cone, energy bolt, energy ball, energy wall, energy ray, energy fan, energy resistance, energy cylinder, energy lance
I am later for the feedback but i decide post here, maybe someone see it
i feel the main issue with the Psion are 2 things
Identity and lack of uniques.
ok so the Psion has created some issues in terms of Archtype fantasy and the role the Psion is supose to take.
First Psionics, What are Psionics? normally people jsut say "mind magic" but if you take the time to check the lore, Psionics are the o****er part of Ki. Kin is body energy, monks learn to master their body so their can harvest Ki, Psionics go on the different direction they learn to master their minds so they can harvest the power of the mind. Psionics and Ki are the two sides of the same coin, they are direct counter parts from each other, and I feel this is the role the Psion/Mystic needs to fill, the "Mage Counterpart" to the monk.
Ki= Body energy Psionic= Mind energy This by itself give the Psion a place since is supposed to be the counterpart to the Monk.
One is about mastering your body, the other is about mastering your mind. Psionics are supose to work in a similar way to magic but also a separate thing. Reason why you have the whole " Are psionics supose to be caster? Psionic is supose to be different from magic".
Personally I feel is ok for Psion to be a caster, but not for the Psion to use the same generic casting system every caster use,.
WoTC should use the point system for the Psion, that would be classic and in line with previous editions and keep it thematically distinct enough to represent how psionics work differently from magic. Or a second options they could use the Warlock spell table, this way making the Psion more unique tan just another generic full caster.
another issue is if Psion step on the Wizard and Sorcerer's thoes. Did the Psion need to study? so is just Mind Wizard? Did the Psion is born with the power? so is just Mind Sorcerer? In general, I feel the place for the Psion is to be the counterpart of the Monk, but in the mage family to work with the idea that everyone is born with the potential for Psionics just like everyone is born with the potential for Ki, but is less a case of "Go read a book" and more a case of self discipline and self-mastering .
but while the Monk is about the discipline to master your body and harvest the secret power of your body, the Psion is about discipline to master your mind and harvest the secret power of your mind.
Another sugestion would be to tie the Psionics identity as caster with the reveal of the 9th spell of magic.
the School of psychokinesis; all the spells use spell points not spell slots, so nobody outside Psion or someone with a Psion related feat can use it
I would rather D&D Beyond had worked on the UA33 Mystic rather than gone the route they have here. I do believe the Psionicist/Mystic is called for and am fine with the mechanical complexities of the UA33 Mystic. Honestly Jeff Rebbeck's update on the UA33 Mystic was brilliant and develops the class in the right direction.
I would rather D&D Beyond had worked on the UA33 Mystic rather than gone the route they have here. I do believe the Psionicist/Mystic is called for and am fine with the mechanical complexities of the UA33 Mystic. Honestly Jeff Rebbeck's update on the UA33 Mystic was brilliant and develops the class in the right direction.
It's probably worth noting that D&D Beyond didn't even exist (launched August 15, 2017), let alone was a WotC company (acquired April 13th 2022), when the last mystic release happened (technically March 13, 2017, but was added to the DMs Guild on May 25). In fact, WotC has been very emphatic about the mystic being a design dead end. I believe the reiterated three times it wasn't going to see release, with the latest being I believe the September 5, 2019 UA for the Aberrant Mind and Lurker in the Deep. Or possibly May 14, 2020 with the Psi Knight, Soul Knife, and Psionic Soul.
Either way, the mystic is dead, buried, and can't even be brought back by the Wish spell.
I do not like this design that you are going, but how exactly will work feats that give the char Spells (like fey touched and magic initiate)? That's spells will can casted like psion powers?
I do not like this design that you are going, but how exactly will work feats that give the char Spells (like fey touched and magic initiate)? That's spells will can casted like psion powers?
Unless the feat specifies that it counts as a class spell for you (which I don't think any do), it will be cast as normal.
The psion, though it is interesting, has a lack of originality. WoTC has been focusing on producing several psionic classes, many of which have Psionic Energy Die.
They should also add a mind control subclass to the psion, as I feel this would focus on it being an “all rounder” in psionics, distancing it from the other psionic subclasses.
The psion, though it is interesting, has a lack of originality. WoTC has been focusing on producing several psionic classes, many of which have Psionic Energy Die.
No, they haven't? This is only the second psionic class they've playtested, the first being the mystic, and while other subclasses used a psionic die, it worked completely differently from this one. Those used a psionic talent die that would go down one size if you rolled the highest result and up one size if you rolled the lowest.
I wonder if I wilder could work like a psionic warlck with power points and short rests to reload. Her weak point would be "displays", everybody would notice she is using psionic powers.
I can imagine the mystic or cultivator with "psion spells" but I am too used to the power points.
I could understand the reason to "cast psionic spells". Let's imagine the erudite could use psicristals like a spellbook. This should allow to can choose a different list of psionic spells each day. Only a little number of powers don't need a psicrystal.
I meant subclasses. If they are going to make the Psion, they should probably distance them, as they are all quite similar.
I would assume they're meant to be similar as they're psionic subclasses and this is the psionic class. Many subclasses are intentionally designed to touch on other classes, allowing a form of "soft multiclassing", something mentioned in design interviews. For example:
Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight draw on the wizard class
War domain, college of swords, and bladesinger draw on fighter
Scout draws on ranger
etc
It stands to reason there'd be some strong similarity between the psion and the psionic subclasses, it's just we got things "out of order".
eh its an ok class tho i was hoping it wasnt going to just be a standard full caster with a lil flair and actually something unique just only using the PSI dice to do things
PS we need more full martials the score is like 4 to 5 if this goes through 4 to 6
Shield isn't a solution because at early levels you'd need to commit most of your slots to it, and at late levels there's too many high attack or non-attack roll threats.
I didn't mean to imply that you called it a gish power house. Just what I said: I can't see it work in that role.
It seems to have ... parts of something useful, but none of them mesh into a greater whole? Like the stealth casting thing: That would be really neat if it combined with anything else, but it just doesn't. The psion can get a single spell of before combat, then it's no longer stealthy, it's just a caster. It has tools to do martial things - offensively - but it has zero staying power. It has some good spells, but ... I dunno, to me it lacks variety, and all those spells are situational.
in the end - to me - it just doesn't do anything useful. Sure, in a void, but in the actual game, it's not even second best at anything. It's just mediocre at everything.
I've played an ironically mediocre bard for fun - but the truth is that bards aren't really mediocre at all, they are ... highly specialized generalists, or something. But I can't do anything similar with the psion - although maybe that's a function of my lack of imagination.
I'll have to look at that, specifically. Of course I could have done that before replying, but ... well, time is a ressource.
Anyways, it doesn't matter to me how they scale. No one plays high level anyways, so if they have a nice spike at like level 8 or 10 or something ... then that's worth.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I know, and I'm not saying I would be at all happy if Metamorph when to print as-is. Just saying that the weak defenses in this iteration don't make it totally useless either.
Agreed - It needs Shield and a more passive defense, whether that's armor proficiency or an AC-buffing mode. Bladesinger gets both, EK gets both, and Valor Bard gets both, so there's no reason to deprive Metamorph.
"Doesn't scale well" means "good at level 1, doesn't improve nearly as fast as monster damage output".
That's not the only interpretation. But yes, that's one. I see it as a variable - certain classes gain more power over the 20 levels they can gain, others less. But the difference will obviously be most visible at level 20. If you chose to multiclass, you almost certainly delay certain break points, in the hope of scaling harder, later (well, there's other reasons, but that's one).
Anyways, it's certainly possible to have less than optimal scaling, but not be completely useless at level 8.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Comments on the Psion: Generally awesome ideas.
The following spells should be added to the Psion spell list:
The Psion needs another cantrip. I'd suggest adding them into the subclasses:
The Metamorph needs a few adjustments to Organic Weapon feature
They are trying to bring back parts of 1st/2nd ed psionics with the 3.x ed psionics. It is the best they can do right now without pissinh people who don't like psionics at all off and use a megaphone to seem like they are a larger group then they actually are. Psionics has always been in d&d since originally d&d and chainmail in 1970s. D&d was based on fantasy of all types that includes science fantasy. There is a different between science fiction which is more like star trek and doctor who and science fantasy which is more like hp lovecraft, pulp fiction books, pulp magazines, spiritualist fiction of the Victorian age and edwardian age. They are fantasy with psionics and can take place in any time period. Psychics and psionics has always been in with fantasy, just some people just don't like the ideas of psychics and psionics. I am a huge fan of psionics and enjoy the psion and they did a respectable version of updating the 2nd ed psion, if this helps brings a new world that is a lighter version of darksun minus the slavery, the keeping track of your resources, going ce when thirsty, but keeps the psionics, gladiator, preserver classes, mul, ahasian thri-kreen, athasian half-giant, Athasian dwarf, athasian elf, athasian halfling in a new world that people would accept. Then I am all for it; if it is only the psion class I am still all for it.
I would like to see is adding the elemental Kinetists
Energy ( you choose when manifesting between thunder, fire, cold, electric, psychic, or force damage. )
Energy damage and saves
( force ( str save) d6 + 1/die, psychic ( will save ) d6 +1/die, thunder ( str save ) d6 + 1/die, electric ( dex save ) d6 + 1/die, fire ( dex save ) d6 + 1/die, cold ( con save ) d6 +1/die )
Energy missle, energy cone, energy bolt, energy ball, energy wall, energy ray, energy fan, energy resistance, energy cylinder, energy lance
I am later for the feedback but i decide post here, maybe someone see it
i feel the main issue with the Psion are 2 things
Identity and lack of uniques.
ok so the Psion has created some issues in terms of Archtype fantasy and the role the Psion is supose to take.
First Psionics, What are Psionics? normally people jsut say "mind magic" but if you take the time to check the lore, Psionics are the o****er part of Ki. Kin is body energy, monks learn to master their body so their can harvest Ki, Psionics go on the different direction they learn to master their minds so they can harvest the power of the mind. Psionics and Ki are the two sides of the same coin, they are direct counter parts from each other, and I feel this is the role the Psion/Mystic needs to fill, the "Mage Counterpart" to the monk.
Ki= Body energy Psionic= Mind energy This by itself give the Psion a place since is supposed to be the counterpart to the Monk.
One is about mastering your body, the other is about mastering your mind. Psionics are supose to work in a similar way to magic but also a separate thing. Reason why you have the whole " Are psionics supose to be caster? Psionic is supose to be different from magic".
Personally I feel is ok for Psion to be a caster, but not for the Psion to use the same generic casting system every caster use,.
WoTC should use the point system for the Psion, that would be classic and in line with previous editions and keep it thematically distinct enough to represent how psionics work differently from magic. Or a second options they could use the Warlock spell table, this way making the Psion more unique tan just another generic full caster.
another issue is if Psion step on the Wizard and Sorcerer's thoes. Did the Psion need to study? so is just Mind Wizard? Did the Psion is born with the power? so is just Mind Sorcerer? In general, I feel the place for the Psion is to be the counterpart of the Monk, but in the mage family to work with the idea that everyone is born with the potential for Psionics just like everyone is born with the potential for Ki, but is less a case of "Go read a book" and more a case of self discipline and self-mastering .
but while the Monk is about the discipline to master your body and harvest the secret power of your body, the Psion is about discipline to master your mind and harvest the secret power of your mind.
Another sugestion would be to tie the Psionics identity as caster with the reveal of the 9th spell of magic.
the School of psychokinesis; all the spells use spell points not spell slots, so nobody outside Psion or someone with a Psion related feat can use it
I would rather D&D Beyond had worked on the UA33 Mystic rather than gone the route they have here. I do believe the Psionicist/Mystic is called for and am fine with the mechanical complexities of the UA33 Mystic. Honestly Jeff Rebbeck's update on the UA33 Mystic was brilliant and develops the class in the right direction.
It's probably worth noting that D&D Beyond didn't even exist (launched August 15, 2017), let alone was a WotC company (acquired April 13th 2022), when the last mystic release happened (technically March 13, 2017, but was added to the DMs Guild on May 25). In fact, WotC has been very emphatic about the mystic being a design dead end. I believe the reiterated three times it wasn't going to see release, with the latest being I believe the September 5, 2019 UA for the Aberrant Mind and Lurker in the Deep. Or possibly May 14, 2020 with the Psi Knight, Soul Knife, and Psionic Soul.
Either way, the mystic is dead, buried, and can't even be brought back by the Wish spell.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I do not like this design that you are going, but how exactly will work feats that give the char Spells (like fey touched and magic initiate)? That's spells will can casted like psion powers?
Unless the feat specifies that it counts as a class spell for you (which I don't think any do), it will be cast as normal.
The psion, though it is interesting, has a lack of originality.
WoTC has been focusing on producing several psionic classes, many of which have Psionic Energy Die.
They should also add a mind control subclass to the psion, as I feel this would focus on it being an “all rounder” in psionics, distancing it from the other psionic subclasses.
No, they haven't? This is only the second psionic class they've playtested, the first being the mystic, and while other subclasses used a psionic die, it worked completely differently from this one. Those used a psionic talent die that would go down one size if you rolled the highest result and up one size if you rolled the lowest.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I wonder if I wilder could work like a psionic warlck with power points and short rests to reload. Her weak point would be "displays", everybody would notice she is using psionic powers.
I can imagine the mystic or cultivator with "psion spells" but I am too used to the power points.
I could understand the reason to "cast psionic spells". Let's imagine the erudite could use psicristals like a spellbook. This should allow to can choose a different list of psionic spells each day. Only a little number of powers don't need a psicrystal.
I meant subclasses. If they are going to make the Psion, they should probably distance them, as they are all quite similar.
I would assume they're meant to be similar as they're psionic subclasses and this is the psionic class. Many subclasses are intentionally designed to touch on other classes, allowing a form of "soft multiclassing", something mentioned in design interviews. For example:
etc
It stands to reason there'd be some strong similarity between the psion and the psionic subclasses, it's just we got things "out of order".
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
eh its an ok class tho i was hoping it wasnt going to just be a standard full caster with a lil flair and actually something unique just only using the PSI dice to do things
PS we need more full martials the score is like 4 to 5 if this goes through 4 to 6
Yeah I agree I like it but there’s too many spellcasting classes and the spellcasting takes up some features that could be a lot more interesting.