D&D / Wizards of the Coast made a calculated error when they cancelled the Dragon and Dungeon Magazines which was through Paizo publishing. By cancelling it, it forced Paizo to find a new income stream and they then created Pathfinder during the 3.5 edition. Now Pathfinder is a huge competitor with D&D and that was not the case back in the day, when I was collecting those 2 monthly magazines. Oh well, here we are.
As optimistic as i am about the survival of the game, i still thing that WoTC and its leadership are fumbling the ball in ways so spectacular that they beggar belief. All the long term stuff seems to be what is slashed and burned, the studio that Made the "Honor among Thieves" movie was sold off almost the instant the movie was done. The movie was GOOD and with a little more time it could have been turning out Blockbusters that rivaled the Marvel movies, but Nooooo. A solid performance despite people ignoring it in the wake of the OGL controversy wasn't good enough for the short term profit hounds. They Axed it, then they axed their workforce, then continue to stuff their Customer goodwill down the toilet like some overzealous jocks giving a kid a swirly in an old 80s highschool movie.
The game is solid and will continue, but the company? Well it may yet fall, and they will only have themselves to blame. TSR set its face on fire before wizard got the game, and in their shortsighted greed, i think Wizards will do and suffer the same. it is shape up or shove off time, and i am not the only one that thinks the hull has a leak.
But again the game will be fine. People will play it till the sun goes dark and the stars grow cold.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
I genuinely applaud at least someone admitting that Paizo's beef is all money-related, much like Kellogg's vs Post.
But I reiterate:Please be upfront with whatever a claim is within the rules.
I'm not the best w/vague subtext.
Instead of claiming something is "Dying", it'd be more accurate & honest, but less sensationalist, to simply state Hasbro is losing another chip of its market share in the niche TTRPG industry.
Listening to the most recent Mastering Dungeons podcast with Shawn Merwin and Teos Abadia, both of whom have been in TTRPGs for decades and worked with most of the big publishers in one capacity or another, and they made the point that from a point of view of C-Suite people coming into D&D it's a very odd company because you're suddenly in charge of a company where the thing you actually do, making a game, is possibly the least profitable part of the business. You're making huge amounts of money on licensing for merch, books and (obviously most recently with BG3) computer gaming, so in a normal business you'd be tempted to scrap the TTRPG to focus on the other stuff but without the TTRPG the other stuff has no value. I'd not actually considered it like that before but with D&D losing it's two most senior designers and Jess Lanzillo leaving as VP of D&D it means we could be looking at new people coming in who don't understand that and need to learn it all over again
You're making huge amounts of money on licensing for merch, books and (obviously most recently with BG3) computer gaming, so in a normal business you'd be tempted to scrap the TTRPG to focus on the other stuff but without the TTRPG the other stuff has no value.
That's pretty normal for any big IP though. Disney didn't scrap Frozen 2 because they were able to stick Elsa and Olaf on Band-Aids and lunch boxes
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're making huge amounts of money on licensing for merch, books and (obviously most recently with BG3) computer gaming, so in a normal business you'd be tempted to scrap the TTRPG to focus on the other stuff but without the TTRPG the other stuff has no value.
That's pretty normal for any big IP though. Disney didn't scrap Frozen 2 because they were able to stick Elsa and Olaf on Band-Aids and lunch boxes
Yeah but Disney *also* make a billion dollars on Frozen 2 in a way WotC probably don't on the latest Forgotten Realms campaign setting
Not by any metric is Pathfinder a "huge" competitor to D&D in 2025
D&D's always had competitors, from Tunnel & Trolls to GURPS to Daggerheart. Heck, they haven't always been TTRPGs -- you could argue Steve Jackson (the other one)'s Fighting Fantasy books, and all their clones, were competition in the 80s. None of them have put any kind of real dent in D&D. Whenever D&D's popularity has flagged, the damage has been self-inflicted
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'd not actually considered it like that before but with D&D losing it's two most senior designers and Jess Lanzillo leaving as VP of D&D it means we could be looking at new people coming in who don't understand that and need to learn it all over again
Isn't the first time this happen in D&D history, and is more likely that we will see people like James Wyatt and Makenzie De Armas taking on this role than bringing in completely new people with no experience in the market, WOTC has been working like this since the 3e era with D&D and nothing indicates a change.
Not by any metric is Pathfinder a "huge" competitor to D&D in 2025
By the metric of the other competitors they are . 😏
Being the "biggest" competitor and a "huge" competitor are not the same thing. Each of those words conveys a different relationship, the former between Paizo and all other non-D&D TTRPGs, the latter between Paizo and D&D itself
Not by any metric is Pathfinder a "huge" competitor to D&D in 2025
By the metric of the other competitors they are . 😏
That just makes Pathfinder a huge competitor to Daggerheart
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
As optimistic as i am about the survival of the game, i still thing that WoTC and its leadership are fumbling the ball in ways so spectacular that they beggar belief. All the long term stuff seems to be what is slashed and burned, the studio that Made the "Honor among Thieves" movie was sold off almost the instant the movie was done. The movie was GOOD and with a little more time it could have been turning out Blockbusters that rivaled the Marvel movies, but Nooooo. A solid performance despite people ignoring it in the wake of the OGL controversy wasn't good enough for the short term profit hounds. They Axed it, then they axed their workforce, then continue to stuff their Customer goodwill down the toilet like some overzealous jocks giving a kid a swirly in an old 80s highschool movie.
The game is solid and will continue, but the company? Well it may yet fall, and they will only have themselves to blame. TSR set its face on fire before wizard got the game, and in their shortsighted greed, i think Wizards will do and suffer the same. it is shape up or shove off time, and i am not the only one that thinks the hull has a leak.
But again the game will be fine. People will play it till the sun goes dark and the stars grow cold.
I don’t think D&D becoming a movie franchise would be that good for the game… and despite it being good I don’t think the D&D movie had potential to rival marvel at all. It was more, “I enjoyed the film.” Not a “Masterpeice I’m gonna rewatch every year.”
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Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer came down upon her head Clang! Clang! Maxwell's silver hammer made sure that she was dead
As optimistic as i am about the survival of the game, i still thing that WoTC and its leadership are fumbling the ball in ways so spectacular that they beggar belief. All the long term stuff seems to be what is slashed and burned, the studio that Made the "Honor among Thieves" movie was sold off almost the instant the movie was done. The movie was GOOD and with a little more time it could have been turning out Blockbusters that rivaled the Marvel movies, but Nooooo. A solid performance despite people ignoring it in the wake of the OGL controversy wasn't good enough for the short term profit hounds. They Axed it, then they axed their workforce, then continue to stuff their Customer goodwill down the toilet like some overzealous jocks giving a kid a swirly in an old 80s highschool movie.
The game is solid and will continue, but the company? Well it may yet fall, and they will only have themselves to blame. TSR set its face on fire before wizard got the game, and in their shortsighted greed, i think Wizards will do and suffer the same. it is shape up or shove off time, and i am not the only one that thinks the hull has a leak.
But again the game will be fine. People will play it till the sun goes dark and the stars grow cold.
I don’t think D&D becoming a movie franchise would be that good for the game… and despite it being good I don’t think the D&D movie had potential to rival marvel at all. It was more, “I enjoyed the film.” Not a “Masterpeice I’m gonna rewatch every year.”
It was an example of financial shortsightedness, not a claim that it would improve the game. I never touched on how the movie would effect the game. It is, as are the other things, related to the welfare of THE COMPANY. ( Which is distinct from the game ) It was just an example of how they spend money on something, then gut it when it isn't an immediate money printing machine. I chose that example because it is a decently known phenomena that movies are often a long term investments as a studio gets established.
The part that i touched on that WILL effect the game is the workforce decimation, and the continual erosion of good will among its customers. Even then, the game will continue even should people need to turn to illegitimate or 3rd party content. Again, the game will continue on even when the current company consumes itself with bad decisions.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
The movie was GOOD and with a little more time it could have been turning out Blockbusters that rivaled the Marvel movies, but Nooooo.
If the movie was GOOD it would have made dramatically more money than it did. I found it entertaining enough, but I suspect it would have been pretty confusing to someone who wasn't already pretty well versed in D&D lore.
As optimistic as i am about the survival of the game, i still thing that WoTC and its leadership are fumbling the ball in ways so spectacular that they beggar belief. All the long term stuff seems to be what is slashed and burned, the studio that Made the "Honor among Thieves" movie was sold off almost the instant the movie was done. The movie was GOOD and with a little more time it could have been turning out Blockbusters that rivaled the Marvel movies, but Nooooo. A solid performance despite people ignoring it in the wake of the OGL controversy wasn't good enough for the short term profit hounds. They Axed it, then they axed their workforce, then continue to stuff their Customer goodwill down the toilet like some overzealous jocks giving a kid a swirly in an old 80s highschool movie.
The game is solid and will continue, but the company? Well it may yet fall, and they will only have themselves to blame. TSR set its face on fire before wizard got the game, and in their shortsighted greed, i think Wizards will do and suffer the same. it is shape up or shove off time, and i am not the only one that thinks the hull has a leak.
But again the game will be fine. People will play it till the sun goes dark and the stars grow cold.
I don’t think D&D becoming a movie franchise would be that good for the game… and despite it being good I don’t think the D&D movie had potential to rival marvel at all. It was more, “I enjoyed the film.” Not a “Masterpeice I’m gonna rewatch every year.”
It was an example of financial shortsightedness, not a claim that it would improve the game. I never touched on how the movie would effect the game. It is, as are the other things, related to the welfare of THE COMPANY. ( Which is distinct from the game ) It was just an example of how they spend money on something, then gut it when it isn't an immediate money printing machine. I chose that example because it is a decently known phenomena that movies are often a long term investments as a studio gets established.
The part that i touched on that WILL effect the game is the workforce decimation, and the continual erosion of good will among its customers. Even then, the game will continue even should people need to turn to illegitimate or 3rd party content. Again, the game will continue on even when the current company consumes itself with bad decisions.
I mean, do we know the actual net profit on the movie? Live action stuff like this is pretty expensive; even turning a modest profit doesn’t really guarantee a whole line of films will be a sound long term investment.
And, again, I feel the talk about “erosion of goodwill among customers” is likely over exaggerated in places like this. There’s a couple million accounts here, and maybe two or three dozen of us at most that take any kind of close and ongoing interest in discussing the state of the company. The participation in the OGL survey was a fraction of the participation in the 2024 PHB UA surveys. Seems pretty clear to me that for most of the playerbase they’re content to buy the books and play the game without worrying over all the corporate moves.
The movie was GOOD and with a little more time it could have been turning out Blockbusters that rivaled the Marvel movies, but Nooooo.
If the movie was GOOD it would have made dramatically more money than it did. I found it entertaining enough, but I suspect it would have been pretty confusing to someone who wasn't already pretty well versed in D&D lore.
I have been around the block enough to know that there is a difference between good and immediately profitable. Those are 2 seperate propositions. John Carpenter's "The Thing" was panned by critics and had only moderate to low success when it first released but it is now considered one of the most suspenseful Sci-fi horror films in history.
again, D&D will be fine, even if the company burns.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
The box office take was just over $200million. Budget was $150million. The rule of thumb is that it needs to take 2-3x its budget to be profitable (due not all money going back to the makers, not including advertising, etc).
I liked it, but commercially it didn't do well at all.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
A solid performance despite people ignoring it in the wake of the OGL controversy
I've seen some truly wild claims about the impact of the OGL kerfuffle, but the idea that it had a meaningful impact on the box office of Honor Among Thieves might be the best one yet
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A solid performance despite people ignoring it in the wake of the OGL controversy
I've seen some truly wild claims about the impact of the OGL kerfuffle, but the idea that it had a meaningful impact on the box office of Honor Among Thieves might be the best one yet
Ok to be fair my view might be skewed because, the OGL was the most cited reason among the people i spoke to who skipped the movie, so i might be giving it inordinate weight.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
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D&D / Wizards of the Coast made a calculated error when they cancelled the Dragon and Dungeon Magazines which was through Paizo publishing. By cancelling it, it forced Paizo to find a new income stream and they then created Pathfinder during the 3.5 edition. Now Pathfinder is a huge competitor with D&D and that was not the case back in the day, when I was collecting those 2 monthly magazines. Oh well, here we are.
As optimistic as i am about the survival of the game, i still thing that WoTC and its leadership are fumbling the ball in ways so spectacular that they beggar belief.
All the long term stuff seems to be what is slashed and burned, the studio that Made the "Honor among Thieves" movie was sold off almost the instant the movie was done. The movie was GOOD and with a little more time it could have been turning out Blockbusters that rivaled the Marvel movies, but Nooooo. A solid performance despite people ignoring it in the wake of the OGL controversy wasn't good enough for the short term profit hounds. They Axed it, then they axed their workforce, then continue to stuff their Customer goodwill down the toilet like some overzealous jocks giving a kid a swirly in an old 80s highschool movie.
The game is solid and will continue, but the company? Well it may yet fall, and they will only have themselves to blame. TSR set its face on fire before wizard got the game, and in their shortsighted greed, i think Wizards will do and suffer the same.
it is shape up or shove off time, and i am not the only one that thinks the hull has a leak.
But again the game will be fine. People will play it till the sun goes dark and the stars grow cold.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
I genuinely applaud at least someone admitting that Paizo's beef is all money-related, much like Kellogg's vs Post.
But I reiterate:Please be upfront with whatever a claim is within the rules.
I'm not the best w/vague subtext.
Instead of claiming something is "Dying", it'd be more accurate & honest, but less sensationalist, to simply state Hasbro is losing another chip of its market share in the niche TTRPG industry.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Listening to the most recent Mastering Dungeons podcast with Shawn Merwin and Teos Abadia, both of whom have been in TTRPGs for decades and worked with most of the big publishers in one capacity or another, and they made the point that from a point of view of C-Suite people coming into D&D it's a very odd company because you're suddenly in charge of a company where the thing you actually do, making a game, is possibly the least profitable part of the business. You're making huge amounts of money on licensing for merch, books and (obviously most recently with BG3) computer gaming, so in a normal business you'd be tempted to scrap the TTRPG to focus on the other stuff but without the TTRPG the other stuff has no value. I'd not actually considered it like that before but with D&D losing it's two most senior designers and Jess Lanzillo leaving as VP of D&D it means we could be looking at new people coming in who don't understand that and need to learn it all over again
That's pretty normal for any big IP though. Disney didn't scrap Frozen 2 because they were able to stick Elsa and Olaf on Band-Aids and lunch boxes
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah but Disney *also* make a billion dollars on Frozen 2 in a way WotC probably don't on the latest Forgotten Realms campaign setting
Not by any metric is Pathfinder a "huge" competitor to D&D in 2025
D&D's always had competitors, from Tunnel & Trolls to GURPS to Daggerheart. Heck, they haven't always been TTRPGs -- you could argue Steve Jackson (the other one)'s Fighting Fantasy books, and all their clones, were competition in the 80s. None of them have put any kind of real dent in D&D. Whenever D&D's popularity has flagged, the damage has been self-inflicted
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Isn't the first time this happen in D&D history, and is more likely that we will see people like James Wyatt and Makenzie De Armas taking on this role than bringing in completely new people with no experience in the market, WOTC has been working like this since the 3e era with D&D and nothing indicates a change.
By the metric of the other competitors they are . 😏
Being the "biggest" competitor and a "huge" competitor are not the same thing. Each of those words conveys a different relationship, the former between Paizo and all other non-D&D TTRPGs, the latter between Paizo and D&D itself
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
That just makes Pathfinder a huge competitor to Daggerheart
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don’t think D&D becoming a movie franchise would be that good for the game… and despite it being good I don’t think the D&D movie had potential to rival marvel at all. It was more, “I enjoyed the film.” Not a “Masterpeice I’m gonna rewatch every year.”
Bang! Bang! Maxwell's silver hammer came down upon her head
Clang! Clang! Maxwell's silver hammer made sure that she was dead
It was an example of financial shortsightedness, not a claim that it would improve the game. I never touched on how the movie would effect the game. It is, as are the other things, related to the welfare of THE COMPANY. ( Which is distinct from the game )
It was just an example of how they spend money on something, then gut it when it isn't an immediate money printing machine. I chose that example because it is a decently known phenomena that movies are often a long term investments as a studio gets established.
The part that i touched on that WILL effect the game is the workforce decimation, and the continual erosion of good will among its customers. Even then, the game will continue even should people need to turn to illegitimate or 3rd party content. Again, the game will continue on even when the current company consumes itself with bad decisions.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
If the movie was GOOD it would have made dramatically more money than it did. I found it entertaining enough, but I suspect it would have been pretty confusing to someone who wasn't already pretty well versed in D&D lore.
I mean, do we know the actual net profit on the movie? Live action stuff like this is pretty expensive; even turning a modest profit doesn’t really guarantee a whole line of films will be a sound long term investment.
And, again, I feel the talk about “erosion of goodwill among customers” is likely over exaggerated in places like this. There’s a couple million accounts here, and maybe two or three dozen of us at most that take any kind of close and ongoing interest in discussing the state of the company. The participation in the OGL survey was a fraction of the participation in the 2024 PHB UA surveys. Seems pretty clear to me that for most of the playerbase they’re content to buy the books and play the game without worrying over all the corporate moves.
I have been around the block enough to know that there is a difference between good and immediately profitable. Those are 2 seperate propositions.
John Carpenter's "The Thing" was panned by critics and had only moderate to low success when it first released but it is now considered one of the most suspenseful Sci-fi horror films in history.
again, D&D will be fine, even if the company burns.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
The movie was not fine art. It was designed as popcorn entertainment, and the measure of 'good' for things like that really is commercial success.
The box office take was just over $200million. Budget was $150million. The rule of thumb is that it needs to take 2-3x its budget to be profitable (due not all money going back to the makers, not including advertising, etc).
I liked it, but commercially it didn't do well at all.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I've seen some truly wild claims about the impact of the OGL kerfuffle, but the idea that it had a meaningful impact on the box office of Honor Among Thieves might be the best one yet
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ok to be fair my view might be skewed because, the OGL was the most cited reason among the people i spoke to who skipped the movie, so i might be giving it inordinate weight.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World