Is anyone else disappointed in Dungeon Delves? Artwork is definitely not up to the standards expected from Wizards of the Coast. The changed the font used for the title and spine of the book. They did not even keep it consistent with the 2024 Source Design. Looks like a cheap 3rd party book rather then an official WotC release. Sad Panda.
Yeah, that and it's mostly (all?) recycled content. In previous published anthologies, at least they listed when they were originally published and who wrote the modules. (Ex. Ghosts of Saltmarsh).
Well, there's a book called Dungeon Delves from Goodman Games, which is in fact a 3PP publisher. Given that Dragon Delves won't be released for another week and looks to have standard WotC font and layout, could be the OP made a mistake?
Well, there's a book called Dungeon Delves from Goodman Games, which is in fact a 3PP publisher. Given that Dragon Delves won't be released for another week and looks to have standard WotC font and layout, could be the OP made a mistake?
Nah, he's right. Brick and mortar stores have them early and yeah, font and layout are different.
Think they bought rights to their modules? That would be wild.
Assuming the OP meant "Dragon Delves"...I have mine in hand (non-alt cover). Each chapter has a history of the art of the dragon type in question and then the adventure itself has stylized art that I guess some people might not like. Each chapter seems to have had a different artist and style and I'm not sure how much of the art was created for the book itself and how much is recycled from earlier content, but I don't think "not up to standards" is the right way to describe it.
The spine is different from the big 3 core books, but as this is the only book I currently have after their release, I can't say if that was a deliberate design choice that they will apply to future sourcebooks to, perhaps, make the core books easier to find on a bookshelf.
Dragon Delves is my single least favorite 5e product—perhaps my least favorite D&D product of all time. It is the first product I have ever actively warned friends against purchasing. My issues with the product are threefold.
First, this product fails to deliver on its promise. Dragons are cool, iconic. Half of the game’s name. This product, however, caps at a measly level 12 - hardly an epic adventure or encounter for such an important creature. This is a problem - Wizards has long acknowledged their lack of high level content is a detriment to the game, and, yet, once again ignored high level play in favor of even more anthologies (which, to be clear, I generally love) in the same lower level range.
Second, the complete lack of new mechanical content made the book entirely useless outside of the adventures. Just a wall of text failing to do the subject justice.
Third, this was a fun chance to expand on lore. I was pretty excited seeing a “history” section for each dragon type… only to learn there was no lore, just some pictures from other books (and thus many I had already seen).
I really hope this does not set the stage for 5.24 adventure books - Eberron looks promising, so I am hopeful this is a fluke.
I completely agree with your assessment from my first impressions. The only thing I would say I like so far is the alternate cover art. It's like a '90s blacklight poster, and I'm here for it. Otherwise, the main art cover and internal art are lazy at best.
Edit: Just to list her, shout out to Justine Jones, the artist for the alt. cover.
First, this product fails to deliver on its promise. Dragons are cool, iconic. Half of the game’s name. This product, however, caps at a measly level 12 - hardly an epic adventure or encounter for such an important creature. This is a problem - Wizards has long acknowledged their lack of high level content is a detriment to the game, and, yet, once again ignored high level play in favor of even more anthologies (which, to be clear, I generally love) in the same lower level range.
I suspect they don't really know how to write high level encounters (and to be fair, it's extremely difficult to balance for higher level PCs because there can be quite large variation in power level), but this runs into the secondary problem of lower CR dragons being, well... boring. Even legendary dragons are pretty bland, but wyrmlings don't have any interesting tricks, and young dragons don't have much.
I just wanna point out that 'epic' doesn't equate 'high level' - and frankly, the higher level product you put out, the fewer people will ever play it. So from a design and marketing perspective, high level is a terrible dead end - possibly to be avoided at any cost (short of things that take you from level 1 to 'high').
Also, what I've seen of the art is incredible. That is limited to the covers, though, and a single image that seems to be from inside the book, so maybe not the deepest of insight there.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I didn't order it expecting to aid a war of one side of dragonkind against another.
I just wanted some short adventures that have dragons involved. It delivered.
I think panic is premature, especially since it seems people expected more than that.
The multiple interior art styles are a good thing. But I can see, from a neurological perspective, why a spine that's different may bother certain people.
The history sections are meh. Not what I bought the book for.
I'd like a followup featuring Faerie Dragons, Pseudodragons, Gem Dragons, Solar Dragons, Lunar Dragons, Deep Dragons, Dragon Turtles & Dracoliches, if at all possible...& a possible retcon back into existence for Steel, Iron, Song, Mercury, Orange, Pink, Yellow & other non-5e 2014 canon dragons in a proper Draconomicon.
(I know Pink Dragons were an April Fools thing by Paizo in Dragon Magazine of yesteryear:I just think the concept of a puckish bubble & soap-oriented dragon is salvageable in today's environment.)
I just wanna point out that 'epic' doesn't equate 'high level' - and frankly, the higher level product you put out, the fewer people will ever play it. So from a design and marketing perspective, high level is a terrible dead end - possibly to be avoided at any cost (short of things that take you from level 1 to 'high').
No, epic isn't synonymous with high level, but in D&D parlance, it does connote high level play. I'd expect a product to be going to at least L16 to have that adjective. Even on a less esoteric note...it means long, which isn't what I'd use to describe an anthology. For me, it's a bugbear that companies use adjectives for their product not to describe it (naturally with some exaggeration), but just put whatever sounds cool down.
You can do high level, if you start higher. Vecna works reasonably well.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
No, epic isn't synonymous with high level, but in D&D parlance, it does connote high level play. I'd expect a product to be going to at least L16 to have that adjective. Even on a less esoteric note...it means long, which isn't what I'd use to describe an anthology. For me, it's a bugbear that companies use adjectives for their product not to describe it (naturally with some exaggeration), but just put whatever sounds cool down.
You can do high level, if you start higher. Vecna works reasonably well.
At some point, someone decided there were 'epic levels' and 'epic level magic' and so on.
That has rubbed up to some degree, but ... it's just dumb. I've had countless epic fights at levels 1-3, and barely any at levels 15+. At high levels, the game is about bookkeeping, and very little else. And the target audience for it is minimal.
But on the forums? You could get the impression it's all anyone ever plays. I must have seen 10000 level 20 builds. Have I ever seen anyone play a level 20 character? Naw.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Second, the complete lack of new mechanical content made the book entirely useless outside of the adventures. Just a wall of text failing to do the subject justice.
I've seen this remark, and the "There's no new monsters, they're all from the Monster Manual" comment, all over the place. And I'm confused. These are adventures. We've just gotten 500 monsters in the Monster Manual and hundreds of magic items in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Why are people desperate for more? And if you mean actual mechanics, which other adventure anthology had that?
I suspect they don't really know how to write high level encounters (and to be fair, it's extremely difficult to balance for higher level PCs because there can be quite large variation in power level), but this runs into the secondary problem of lower CR dragons being, well... boring. Even legendary dragons are pretty bland, but wyrmlings don't have any interesting tricks, and young dragons don't have much.
They absolutely do not know how to write high level encounters. Eve of Ruin was shockingly bad in its design and ability to present real challenges to epic-tier characters. From poor monster design to poor level/location design, it's astoundingly awful. As an example: Chapter 4, The Ruined Colossus is clearly designed for characters who have no access to flight or levitation, nor any means to affect (change or mold) stone - all abilities generally available at high levels, whether via spell, magic item, or other abilities.
Granted, D&D is widely considered broken once you get above 12th level, and writing adventures for epic tier characters is difficult. But they've had more than ten years to try and figure it out.
Second, the complete lack of new mechanical content made the book entirely useless outside of the adventures. Just a wall of text failing to do the subject justice.
I've seen this remark, and the "There's no new monsters, they're all from the Monster Manual" comment, all over the place. And I'm confused. These are adventures. We've just gotten 500 monsters in the Monster Manual and hundreds of magic items in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Why are people desperate for more? And if you mean actual mechanics, which other adventure anthology had that?
For the most part i complete agree with you here, but, to my remember, only one adventure anthology had one new mechanic, Shaltmarsh has a Ship mechanic
I'm quite happy with it - I have some new Dragon themed adventures to run and I love all the different art styles. Briochebane is my favourite derpy little dragon though.
Second, the complete lack of new mechanical content made the book entirely useless outside of the adventures. Just a wall of text failing to do the subject justice.
I've seen this remark, and the "There's no new monsters, they're all from the Monster Manual" comment, all over the place. And I'm confused. These are adventures. We've just gotten 500 monsters in the Monster Manual and hundreds of magic items in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Why are people desperate for more? And if you mean actual mechanics, which other adventure anthology had that?
It is not just the lack of monsters. Historically, adventures come with new monsters, magic items, maybe some relevant feats and backgrounds - they are not usually as much as a full sourcebook, but they still flesh out the adventure and give a secondary reason to purchase the product (important, considering the data shows the majority of players do not use adventures).
This is a departure from the norm set by every other 5e adventure, and a departure that both makes the adventure itself less unique and the book less useful to other purchasers. Whatever way you slice it, Wizards decided to go against the precedent of their entire catalog, and charge full price for the product regardless. The fact another great set of products just came out is irrelevant - it does not change the reality that Wizards delivered less than they ever have in an official 5e book.
——
I also wanted to address the difficulty in designing high level adventures. This is certainly true, particularly the point made that adventures have to be tailored to a party’s particular godly set of powers.
That said, I also think it is fair to say part of the issue running high level encounters is the lack of official guidance on the subject. A high level adventure might not be able to fully predict the party, but it can expand on some of the universally applicable mechanisms for mitigating a high level party. Things like challenging encounters designed to burn resources, environmental effects, interrupting rests as a feature, exhaustion, non-tank-and-spank goals in combat that must be overcome rather than simply nuking a monster with high level abilities.
Would it be perfect? No. But it would still be nice to have some options available for “I don’t have time to do full prep” days (one of the primary goals of anthology books) and even nicer to have a product that can help teach players high level play (frankly, I think that could be an entire product on its own - something like Elder Evils from prior editions, designed entirely toward endgame content).
I suspect they don't really know how to write high level encounters (and to be fair, it's extremely difficult to balance for higher level PCs because there can be quite large variation in power level), but this runs into the secondary problem of lower CR dragons being, well... boring. Even legendary dragons are pretty bland, but wyrmlings don't have any interesting tricks, and young dragons don't have much.
They absolutely do not know how to write high level encounters. Eve of Ruin was shockingly bad in its design and ability to present real challenges to epic-tier characters. From poor monster design to poor level/location design, it's astoundingly awful. As an example: Chapter 4, The Ruined Colossus is clearly designed for characters who have no access to flight or levitation, nor any means to affect (change or mold) stone - all abilities generally available at high levels, whether via spell, magic item, or other abilities.
Granted, D&D is widely considered broken once you get above 12th level, and writing adventures for epic tier characters is difficult. But they've had more than ten years to try and figure it out.
Well, that's the thing, isn't it? The range of abilities and options available to players increases almost exponentially as you get to higher levels
The DM really has to tailor encounters to the specific strength/weaknesses of their party to make them challenging, so a high-level adventure can't be designed for "general use", almost by definition
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're right, of course, that at epic tier, it's really difficult to build an adventure that will be equally challenging to everyone. Each party is going to differ not only in species and class, but in magic items.
But! There are some things that are likely true for most adventuring parties at levels 17-20. Access to powerful healing, flight, shape-shifting, ability to travel long distances quickly and easily, high melee and spell attack modifiers (and DCs), decent to very good Con, Strength, Dex, and Wisdom save modifiers (not all of them for every character), very good modifiers for the most-used skills (Perception, Athletics), ability to take protected long rests. All of these should be considered assumed or very likely and factored into the adventure design.
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Is anyone else disappointed in Dungeon Delves? Artwork is definitely not up to the standards expected from Wizards of the Coast. The changed the font used for the title and spine of the book. They did not even keep it consistent with the 2024 Source Design. Looks like a cheap 3rd party book rather then an official WotC release. Sad Panda.
Christopher A. Blanchard
Do you mean DRAGON Delves? Or was there a pub I missed?
Yeah, that and it's mostly (all?) recycled content. In previous published anthologies, at least they listed when they were originally published and who wrote the modules. (Ex. Ghosts of Saltmarsh).
Well, there's a book called Dungeon Delves from Goodman Games, which is in fact a 3PP publisher. Given that Dragon Delves won't be released for another week and looks to have standard WotC font and layout, could be the OP made a mistake?
Nah, he's right. Brick and mortar stores have them early and yeah, font and layout are different.
Think they bought rights to their modules? That would be wild.
Assuming the OP meant "Dragon Delves"...I have mine in hand (non-alt cover). Each chapter has a history of the art of the dragon type in question and then the adventure itself has stylized art that I guess some people might not like. Each chapter seems to have had a different artist and style and I'm not sure how much of the art was created for the book itself and how much is recycled from earlier content, but I don't think "not up to standards" is the right way to describe it.
The spine is different from the big 3 core books, but as this is the only book I currently have after their release, I can't say if that was a deliberate design choice that they will apply to future sourcebooks to, perhaps, make the core books easier to find on a bookshelf.
Also presuming you meant Dragon Delves.
Dragon Delves is my single least favorite 5e product—perhaps my least favorite D&D product of all time. It is the first product I have ever actively warned friends against purchasing. My issues with the product are threefold.
First, this product fails to deliver on its promise. Dragons are cool, iconic. Half of the game’s name. This product, however, caps at a measly level 12 - hardly an epic adventure or encounter for such an important creature. This is a problem - Wizards has long acknowledged their lack of high level content is a detriment to the game, and, yet, once again ignored high level play in favor of even more anthologies (which, to be clear, I generally love) in the same lower level range.
Second, the complete lack of new mechanical content made the book entirely useless outside of the adventures. Just a wall of text failing to do the subject justice.
Third, this was a fun chance to expand on lore. I was pretty excited seeing a “history” section for each dragon type… only to learn there was no lore, just some pictures from other books (and thus many I had already seen).
I really hope this does not set the stage for 5.24 adventure books - Eberron looks promising, so I am hopeful this is a fluke.
I completely agree with your assessment from my first impressions. The only thing I would say I like so far is the alternate cover art. It's like a '90s blacklight poster, and I'm here for it. Otherwise, the main art cover and internal art are lazy at best.
Edit: Just to list her, shout out to Justine Jones, the artist for the alt. cover.
Hm. Sorry to hear it's not particularly good.
I suspect they don't really know how to write high level encounters (and to be fair, it's extremely difficult to balance for higher level PCs because there can be quite large variation in power level), but this runs into the secondary problem of lower CR dragons being, well... boring. Even legendary dragons are pretty bland, but wyrmlings don't have any interesting tricks, and young dragons don't have much.
I just wanna point out that 'epic' doesn't equate 'high level' - and frankly, the higher level product you put out, the fewer people will ever play it. So from a design and marketing perspective, high level is a terrible dead end - possibly to be avoided at any cost (short of things that take you from level 1 to 'high').
Also, what I've seen of the art is incredible. That is limited to the covers, though, and a single image that seems to be from inside the book, so maybe not the deepest of insight there.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I didn't order it expecting to aid a war of one side of dragonkind against another.
I just wanted some short adventures that have dragons involved. It delivered.
I think panic is premature, especially since it seems people expected more than that.
The multiple interior art styles are a good thing. But I can see, from a neurological perspective, why a spine that's different may bother certain people.
The history sections are meh. Not what I bought the book for.
I'd like a followup featuring Faerie Dragons, Pseudodragons, Gem Dragons, Solar Dragons, Lunar Dragons, Deep Dragons, Dragon Turtles & Dracoliches, if at all possible...& a possible retcon back into existence for Steel, Iron, Song, Mercury, Orange, Pink, Yellow & other non-5e 2014 canon dragons in a proper Draconomicon.
(I know Pink Dragons were an April Fools thing by Paizo in Dragon Magazine of yesteryear:I just think the concept of a puckish bubble & soap-oriented dragon is salvageable in today's environment.)
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
No, epic isn't synonymous with high level, but in D&D parlance, it does connote high level play. I'd expect a product to be going to at least L16 to have that adjective. Even on a less esoteric note...it means long, which isn't what I'd use to describe an anthology. For me, it's a bugbear that companies use adjectives for their product not to describe it (naturally with some exaggeration), but just put whatever sounds cool down.
You can do high level, if you start higher. Vecna works reasonably well.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
At some point, someone decided there were 'epic levels' and 'epic level magic' and so on.
That has rubbed up to some degree, but ... it's just dumb. I've had countless epic fights at levels 1-3, and barely any at levels 15+. At high levels, the game is about bookkeeping, and very little else. And the target audience for it is minimal.
But on the forums? You could get the impression it's all anyone ever plays. I must have seen 10000 level 20 builds. Have I ever seen anyone play a level 20 character? Naw.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I've seen this remark, and the "There's no new monsters, they're all from the Monster Manual" comment, all over the place. And I'm confused. These are adventures. We've just gotten 500 monsters in the Monster Manual and hundreds of magic items in the Dungeon Master's Guide. Why are people desperate for more? And if you mean actual mechanics, which other adventure anthology had that?
They absolutely do not know how to write high level encounters. Eve of Ruin was shockingly bad in its design and ability to present real challenges to epic-tier characters. From poor monster design to poor level/location design, it's astoundingly awful. As an example: Chapter 4, The Ruined Colossus is clearly designed for characters who have no access to flight or levitation, nor any means to affect (change or mold) stone - all abilities generally available at high levels, whether via spell, magic item, or other abilities.
Granted, D&D is widely considered broken once you get above 12th level, and writing adventures for epic tier characters is difficult. But they've had more than ten years to try and figure it out.
For the most part i complete agree with you here, but, to my remember, only one adventure anthology had one new mechanic, Shaltmarsh has a Ship mechanic
I'm quite happy with it - I have some new Dragon themed adventures to run and I love all the different art styles. Briochebane is my favourite derpy little dragon though.
It is not just the lack of monsters. Historically, adventures come with new monsters, magic items, maybe some relevant feats and backgrounds - they are not usually as much as a full sourcebook, but they still flesh out the adventure and give a secondary reason to purchase the product (important, considering the data shows the majority of players do not use adventures).
This is a departure from the norm set by every other 5e adventure, and a departure that both makes the adventure itself less unique and the book less useful to other purchasers. Whatever way you slice it, Wizards decided to go against the precedent of their entire catalog, and charge full price for the product regardless. The fact another great set of products just came out is irrelevant - it does not change the reality that Wizards delivered less than they ever have in an official 5e book.
——
I also wanted to address the difficulty in designing high level adventures. This is certainly true, particularly the point made that adventures have to be tailored to a party’s particular godly set of powers.
That said, I also think it is fair to say part of the issue running high level encounters is the lack of official guidance on the subject. A high level adventure might not be able to fully predict the party, but it can expand on some of the universally applicable mechanisms for mitigating a high level party. Things like challenging encounters designed to burn resources, environmental effects, interrupting rests as a feature, exhaustion, non-tank-and-spank goals in combat that must be overcome rather than simply nuking a monster with high level abilities.
Would it be perfect? No. But it would still be nice to have some options available for “I don’t have time to do full prep” days (one of the primary goals of anthology books) and even nicer to have a product that can help teach players high level play (frankly, I think that could be an entire product on its own - something like Elder Evils from prior editions, designed entirely toward endgame content).
Well, that's the thing, isn't it? The range of abilities and options available to players increases almost exponentially as you get to higher levels
The DM really has to tailor encounters to the specific strength/weaknesses of their party to make them challenging, so a high-level adventure can't be designed for "general use", almost by definition
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes? But also...no?
You're right, of course, that at epic tier, it's really difficult to build an adventure that will be equally challenging to everyone. Each party is going to differ not only in species and class, but in magic items.
But! There are some things that are likely true for most adventuring parties at levels 17-20. Access to powerful healing, flight, shape-shifting, ability to travel long distances quickly and easily, high melee and spell attack modifiers (and DCs), decent to very good Con, Strength, Dex, and Wisdom save modifiers (not all of them for every character), very good modifiers for the most-used skills (Perception, Athletics), ability to take protected long rests. All of these should be considered assumed or very likely and factored into the adventure design.