The ability to Multi subclass within a class. Some combinations would be interesting.
Long lived characters should get extra languages and feats based on how long they have been alive. It would make "Age' more than a number that a lot of players ignore. Yes I know it could be ignored but I've got a character that has been alive for over 100 years and knows 1 language other than Common.
I'm not sure this is the place for a post like this, but as far as the second point is concerned, just remember that your character was not an adventurer before level 1. Perhaps they've lived 100 years and had no reason at all to learn another language. On the other hand, I believe all characters in 2024 should know Common and TWO other languages, so I'm not sure why you only know one other. I believe languages are also skills you can learn through training (I can't find where that's spelled out, mechanically right now though).
As sabin76 pointed out, there's already a mechanic for learning languages (as well as skill and tool proficiencies) outside of species and class features; it's described here in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
As for having multiple subclasses from the same class — not saying it's not an interesting idea, but it would require a lot of rework of every existing subclass to balance it correctly. It might be better, if you have a specific combination in mind, to come up with a single homebrew subclass that combines elements of both.
5e isn't really set up for having multiple subclasses in one class. It could be done, I guess, but I think the mechanics to do so in a meaningful but not OP way would be too complex for WotC's vision of what makes 5e successful. They're trying to simplify things, rather than deepen them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Others covered what I would say on the subclass suggestion (balance issues; would require fundamental and extensive rework of a system that works) and species suggestion (unnecessary since you can just use 2014 species with little detriment until an update comes), but I wanted to build a bit on why your age and language suggestion should not be implemented.
There are a number of very long lived races in D&D. Gnomes love 425 years; Elves love 750, etc. Adding a mechanical benefit to age gives an incentive without drawback to play multi-centuries old characters.
Age, like every cosmetic element of the game, is intentionally designed to have no mechanical benefit so people can feel empowered to play out fantasies like “young Wizard fresh from magical school” or “old wise monk” without feeling like they are being penalized, rewarded, or otherwise being pushed to playing a more limited character design
As such, I think this suggestion would undermine a core element of the game’s heroic fantasy while also creating balance issues between species.
5e isn't really set up for having multiple subclasses in one class. It could be done, I guess, but I think the mechanics to do so in a meaningful but not OP way would be too complex for WotC's vision of what makes 5e successful. They're trying to simplify things, rather than deepen them.
Fundamentally, subclasses are just class features. To multiclass into another subclass, you'd be taking the same class levels twice. This would be mechanically weird, and probably quite bad (most of the levels you take in your second class would get you nothing, because you already have those features).
The "quite bad" bit is the issue. Either they stack and that is usually OP (which is why they don't let you stack things like Extra Attack) or they don't and it's really, really underpowered. You could probably fix it...but that would almost certainly require a complex mess.
It just isn't something that really works with 5e.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think wagnarokkr had the best idea, which was to simply create your own subclass that has the features you like from the two (or more) subclasses that you are thinking of. There would certainly need to be several rounds of balance edits before you had something workable, I'm sure.
The ability to Multi subclass within a class. Some combinations would be interesting.
Long lived characters should get extra languages and feats based on how long they have been alive. It would make "Age' more than a number that a lot of players ignore. Yes I know it could be ignored but I've got a character that has been alive for over 100 years and knows 1 language other than Common.
As an older person, and as someone who has read a book on Science or two, maybe more. The older you get the harder it is to learn new languages. At most an adult might be able to learn one additional language. But children can learn multiple languages fast, most bilingual people grow up in a bilingual household, and people who speak multiple languages are usually taught them at young ages. Now of course there are exceptions to all rules, and there are some people who have a "gift" for learning languages but they are the exception that proves the rule.
Also what you are asking for is not Multi-Classing but an old 1st/2nd edition thing called "dual-classing" which isn't always dual. You would pick a Kit that was based on leveling two or more classes at the same time, and had to divide the XP equally between the two classes, also you were limited in levels, and each class had it's own XP chart. So if you were say a Fighter/Thief you would gain fighter levels faster than thief unless you stopped ever 10 feet to check for traps. Which was how you leveled a thief, because most of your XP was from skill checks.
There were a few triple class kits BTW.
Also only humans could multiclass, everyone else had to use Dual Class Kits.
Also what you are asking for is not Multi-Classing but an old 1st/2nd edition thing called "dual-classing" which isn't always dual. You would pick a Kit that was based on leveling two or more classes at the same time, and had to divide the XP equally between the two classes, also you were limited in levels, and each class had it's own XP chart. So if you were say a Fighter/Thief you would gain fighter levels faster than thief unless you stopped ever 10 feet to check for traps. Which was how you leveled a thief, because most of your XP was from skill checks.
There were a few triple class kits BTW.
Also only humans could multiclass, everyone else had to use Dual Class Kits.
You've got the terminology backwards -- it was humans that could dual-class (stop leveling in class A, and start from scratch in class B), and nonhumans that could multiclass (level in several classes at once, but slower).
(And "kits" were a later 2e add-on. dual/multiclass was there from at least 1e.)
But mostly, the two methods only make sense in the framework of 1e/2e's extremely baroque leveling system.
With 5e's unified leveling system, a multiclass where you're sharing xp between levels doesn't work. How would it work with milestone leveling?
The real solutions to the desire is either to homebrew an in-the-middle subclass, or find a reasonably-matching class to muticlass into. For instance, if you want to be both a battle master and eldtirch knight, you can just multiclass your battlemaster fighter into wizard. (For less-obvious fits, you may well need a custom subclass still, because a class-based system cannot actually represent all character concepts.)
Also what you are asking for is not Multi-Classing but an old 1st/2nd edition thing called "dual-classing" which isn't always dual. You would pick a Kit that was based on leveling two or more classes at the same time, and had to divide the XP equally between the two classes, also you were limited in levels, and each class had it's own XP chart. So if you were say a Fighter/Thief you would gain fighter levels faster than thief unless you stopped ever 10 feet to check for traps. Which was how you leveled a thief, because most of your XP was from skill checks.
There were a few triple class kits BTW.
Also only humans could multiclass, everyone else had to use Dual Class Kits.
You've got the terminology backwards -- it was humans that could dual-class (stop leveling in class A, and start from scratch in class B), and nonhumans that could multiclass (level in several classes at once, but slower).
(And "kits" were a later 2e add-on. dual/multiclass was there from at least 1e.)
But mostly, the two methods only make sense in the framework of 1e/2e's extremely baroque leveling system.
With 5e's unified leveling system, a multiclass where you're sharing xp between levels doesn't work. How would it work with milestone leveling?
The real solutions to the desire is either to homebrew an in-the-middle subclass, or find a reasonably-matching class to muticlass into. For instance, if you want to be both a battle master and eldtirch knight, you can just multiclass your battlemaster fighter into wizard. (For less-obvious fits, you may well need a custom subclass still, because a class-based system cannot actually represent all character concepts.)
that happens. Been 25 years since 3rd came out, and my last 2nd game was 2004.
2 changes I'd like to see.
The ability to Multi subclass within a class. Some combinations would be interesting.
Long lived characters should get extra languages and feats based on how long they have been alive. It would make "Age' more than a number that a lot of players ignore. Yes I know it could be ignored but I've got a character that has been alive for over 100 years and knows 1 language other than Common.
I'm not sure this is the place for a post like this, but as far as the second point is concerned, just remember that your character was not an adventurer before level 1. Perhaps they've lived 100 years and had no reason at all to learn another language. On the other hand, I believe all characters in 2024 should know Common and TWO other languages, so I'm not sure why you only know one other. I believe languages are also skills you can learn through training (I can't find where that's spelled out, mechanically right now though).
As sabin76 pointed out, there's already a mechanic for learning languages (as well as skill and tool proficiencies) outside of species and class features; it's described here in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
As for having multiple subclasses from the same class — not saying it's not an interesting idea, but it would require a lot of rework of every existing subclass to balance it correctly. It might be better, if you have a specific combination in mind, to come up with a single homebrew subclass that combines elements of both.
pronouns: he/she/they
Warforged, and a lot of other races do not exist in 2024 yet.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorThey’re not in the 2024 core rulebooks, but that doesn’t mean they’re not available in the 2024 rules.
Need help with D&D Beyond? Come ask in the official D&D server on Discord: https://discord.gg/qWzGhwBjYr
True, but it does affect what is part of the build.
5e isn't really set up for having multiple subclasses in one class. It could be done, I guess, but I think the mechanics to do so in a meaningful but not OP way would be too complex for WotC's vision of what makes 5e successful. They're trying to simplify things, rather than deepen them.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Others covered what I would say on the subclass suggestion (balance issues; would require fundamental and extensive rework of a system that works) and species suggestion (unnecessary since you can just use 2014 species with little detriment until an update comes), but I wanted to build a bit on why your age and language suggestion should not be implemented.
There are a number of very long lived races in D&D. Gnomes love 425 years; Elves love 750, etc. Adding a mechanical benefit to age gives an incentive without drawback to play multi-centuries old characters.
Age, like every cosmetic element of the game, is intentionally designed to have no mechanical benefit so people can feel empowered to play out fantasies like “young Wizard fresh from magical school” or “old wise monk” without feeling like they are being penalized, rewarded, or otherwise being pushed to playing a more limited character design
As such, I think this suggestion would undermine a core element of the game’s heroic fantasy while also creating balance issues between species.
Fundamentally, subclasses are just class features. To multiclass into another subclass, you'd be taking the same class levels twice. This would be mechanically weird, and probably quite bad (most of the levels you take in your second class would get you nothing, because you already have those features).
The "quite bad" bit is the issue. Either they stack and that is usually OP (which is why they don't let you stack things like Extra Attack) or they don't and it's really, really underpowered. You could probably fix it...but that would almost certainly require a complex mess.
It just isn't something that really works with 5e.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think wagnarokkr had the best idea, which was to simply create your own subclass that has the features you like from the two (or more) subclasses that you are thinking of. There would certainly need to be several rounds of balance edits before you had something workable, I'm sure.
As an older person, and as someone who has read a book on Science or two, maybe more. The older you get the harder it is to learn new languages. At most an adult might be able to learn one additional language. But children can learn multiple languages fast, most bilingual people grow up in a bilingual household, and people who speak multiple languages are usually taught them at young ages. Now of course there are exceptions to all rules, and there are some people who have a "gift" for learning languages but they are the exception that proves the rule.
Also what you are asking for is not Multi-Classing but an old 1st/2nd edition thing called "dual-classing" which isn't always dual. You would pick a Kit that was based on leveling two or more classes at the same time, and had to divide the XP equally between the two classes, also you were limited in levels, and each class had it's own XP chart. So if you were say a Fighter/Thief you would gain fighter levels faster than thief unless you stopped ever 10 feet to check for traps. Which was how you leveled a thief, because most of your XP was from skill checks.
There were a few triple class kits BTW.
Also only humans could multiclass, everyone else had to use Dual Class Kits.
You've got the terminology backwards -- it was humans that could dual-class (stop leveling in class A, and start from scratch in class B), and nonhumans that could multiclass (level in several classes at once, but slower).
(And "kits" were a later 2e add-on. dual/multiclass was there from at least 1e.)
But mostly, the two methods only make sense in the framework of 1e/2e's extremely baroque leveling system.
With 5e's unified leveling system, a multiclass where you're sharing xp between levels doesn't work. How would it work with milestone leveling?
The real solutions to the desire is either to homebrew an in-the-middle subclass, or find a reasonably-matching class to muticlass into. For instance, if you want to be both a battle master and eldtirch knight, you can just multiclass your battlemaster fighter into wizard. (For less-obvious fits, you may well need a custom subclass still, because a class-based system cannot actually represent all character concepts.)
that happens. Been 25 years since 3rd came out, and my last 2nd game was 2004.