I've been checking out the pre-order for the new Starter Set as it looks like a great way to introduce new players to the game!
And you know what?! I was ready to buy it! The Ultimate (Physical + Digital) bundle and everthing!
Until I hit checkout... and a nitpick I'm just not gonna get past: Shipping Charges.
Seriously, this product is poised to bring in new players and the D&D Beyond store wants friction on the Shipping?
The Storefront even says "free shipping on $65+" and the bundle is $64.99 ($54.99 after the discount, sure), and even though the physical product stand-alone is only $49.99, maybe Wizards, just maybe, call it "good enough" and waive that Shipping?
I mean... Why put any kind of obstacle between an introductory product like this and positioning it in front of as many players, especially *new* players, as possible?
Then again, you're a billion dollar company and I'm just some internet rando, so what do I know?
Well I know I ain't gonna pay for shipping to get the Starter Set, and I passed on buying it. Eh...
*Thoughts shared have a cash value of 2 coppers. Your mileage may vary. Results, and safety, not guaranteed. Offer not valid in Detroit.
They refer to D&D as the "board game" portion. Board game? Seriously?
I used to play this with 3 books, a pencil, paper and some dice. That's not a board game, that's a roleplaying game. This is nothing but marketing to hopefully get someone that plays board games to maybe buy it.
They refer to D&D as the "board game" portion. Board game? Seriously?
I used to play this with 3 books, a pencil, paper and some dice. That's not a board game, that's a roleplaying game. This is nothing but marketing to hopefully get someone that plays board games to maybe buy it.
I hope it is worth it.
It's a starter set designed to bring people into D&D, people who are most likely more familiar with the term "board game" and less familiar with the term "tabletop roleplaying game". It's going for accessible, introductory parlance, not precise language.
They refer to D&D as the "board game" portion. Board game? Seriously?
I used to play this with 3 books, a pencil, paper and some dice. That's not a board game, that's a roleplaying game. This is nothing but marketing to hopefully get someone that plays board games to maybe buy it.
I hope it is worth it.
It's a starter set designed to bring people into D&D, people who are most likely more familiar with the term "board game" and less familiar with the term "tabletop roleplaying game". It's going for accessible, introductory parlance, not precise language.
Yeah, if you have an account on the D&D Beyond forums already, you're not the target audience for that ad copy.
They refer to D&D as the "board game" portion. Board game? Seriously?
I used to play this with 3 books, a pencil, paper and some dice. That's not a board game, that's a roleplaying game. This is nothing but marketing to hopefully get someone that plays board games to maybe buy it.
I hope it is worth it.
It's a starter set designed to bring people into D&D, people who are most likely more familiar with the term "board game" and less familiar with the term "tabletop roleplaying game". It's going for accessible, introductory parlance, not precise language.
Yeah, if you have an account on the D&D Beyond forums already, you're not the target audience for that ad copy.
Try to find one at your friendly Local Game Store, and then see if the value would be better if you bought the physical one in person and the Digital one here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
Buying physical elsewhere and waiting for a sale on digital here is the way to save money, you do not get any of the "perks" or early access so there's that to consider. Though I wonder how many people are using their 50th Anniversary Golden Dragon mini?
Buying physical elsewhere and waiting for a sale on digital here is the way to save money, you do not get any of the "perks" or early access so there's that to consider. Though I wonder how many people are using their 50th Anniversary Golden Dragon mini?
The digital one for Sigil? Everyone got it, most probably didn’t use it. And I highly doubt it was a deciding factor for most.
Well used or not, they marketed the snot out of it lol.
And after the dust settled buying physical from a retailer and the digital here was a better deal if the perks were of no use, not to mention you could get the alt covers and save money too.
I play board games. And Table top RPGs. If there are parts of the game not in the rules, it's an RPG.
I feel this definition inadvertently puts a lot of boardgames into the RPG category. I've played loads of boardgames that have key interactions that aren't the rules, everything from Catan to Twilight Imperium. I'd argue that boardgame and TTRPG are fuzzy terms with lots of overlap. There are boardgames with a lot of TTRPG elements (such as Gloomhaven or the official D&D boardgames) and there are TTRPGs with a lot of boardgame elements (such as out-of-the box games and adventures).
D&D is not a board game.
Or it is? Point is "does it matter?"
The starter set is a simplified version of D&D with boards game-like pieces but it's still an RPG.
It can be both? It can be referred to as one in one context and the other in another.
For example, if I'm explaining D&D to someone inside the TTRPG space who (somehow) is unaware of what D&D is specifically, I might say "It's a genre-spanning fantasy TTRPG that focuses in mid-level crunch, class/species based characters and leans into action-drama fantasy tropes with lots of classic monster from mythologies, as well as iconic original ones".
If I was explaining it to someone who plays "advanced" boardgames (think Twilight Imperium or Scythe or Gloomhaven or any legacy game) but zero TTRPG experience, I might say "It's like a board game except the rules are much more flexible and there's a focus on narrative 'roleplay' which is an emphasis on in-character decision making rather than what is out-of-character optimital or tactical. The story is what matters, especially as it often persists between sessions forming a campaign"
And if I was explaining it to someone whose experience extends literally as far as chess, checkers, or snakes & ladders, I'd probably say "It's a board game where everyone plays a character and pretends to be that character and the person running the game describes the world you're playing in and exploring. It has a story like a TV show that carries over between sessions like a show has episodes"
Calling D&D a board game is what's often referred to a "lie to children" approach to explanation—to onboard someone to a complicated concept, you intentionally "lie" to them so that later on you can say "Actually what I said wasn't fully accurate and here's a better explanation" which then is also a "lie" and then you repeat this on the journey to understanding. The model of the atom is a classic example of this explanation model:
Atoms are little balls that make up everything - this is a "lie"
Atoms are actually made up a nucleus with electrons that wizz around the outside and the electrons are what hold different atoms together - still a "lie"
Actually the nucleus is made up of protons and neutrons, protons have a charge of +1 and a mass of 1 and neutrons have no charge and a mass of 0 - still a "lie"
Actually neutrons have a mass slightly less than 1 due to them giving up some mass into energy to hold the nucleus together. Also electrons actually wizz around in "shells" - still a "lie"
Actually neutrons and protons are made up of quarks which have a mass of 1/3 and a charge of either +2/3 or -1/3. - still a "lie"
Actually electrons aren't distinct particles in "shells", they're a probability cloud
and so on and so forth. Calling D&D a board game is around the "atoms are little balls" level of explanation, whereas people discussing D&D on the official D&D forum are around the level of discussing the quantum mechanical nature of electrons and leptons.
I play board games. And Table top RPGs. If there are parts of the game not in the rules, it's an RPG.
I feel this definition inadvertently puts a lot of boardgames into the RPG category. I've played loads of boardgames that have key interactions that aren't the rules, everything from Catan to Twilight Imperium. I'd argue that boardgame and TTRPG are fuzzy terms with lots of overlap. There are boardgames with a lot of TTRPG elements (such as Gloomhaven or the official D&D boardgames) and there are TTRPGs with a lot of boardgame elements (such as out-of-the box games and adventures).
D&D is not a board game.
Or it is? Point is "does it matter?"
The starter set is a simplified version of D&D with boards game-like pieces but it's still an RPG.
It can be both? It can be referred to as one in one context and the other in another.
Yeah. Like all genre distinctions, there are no hard borders. Given any definitions of "board game" and "RPG", one can come up with examples that fit both, unless they're so constrained that there's a huge space in between that fits neither. Catan is a board game, with negotiations. If you add a few mechanics so that the players create characters, and are now negotiating in character, it's spilling over hard into the RPG zone. Tabletop wargaming is a board game, and we know exactly how it turns into an RPG.
Looking at the description of the set, I really don't see what there is for anybody to get mad about. It looks like it's just D&D, formatted and marketed to try to bring in new players, in particular board gamers.
Looking at the description of the set, I really don't see what there is for anybody to get mad about. It looks like it's just D&D, formatted and marketed to try to bring in new players, in particular board gamers.
I think there are a few factors at work:
Fear of "simplification"—people are worried WotC is "over-simplifying"/"dumbing down"/"kiddifying" (all terms I've seen used) D&D under the guise of accessibility but in reality in pursuit of profits by appealing to the "lowest common denominator". This fear of D&D being made more accessible/approachable is a form of gatekeeping that really had its heyday back during 4th edition when WotC made some ostensibly great changes* to make D&D work much better as a game you can play by reading the books, rather than by being mentored by someone already playing it. Referring to D&D as a "boardgame" in any capacity is seen as committing the sin of simplification—D&D being "boardgameified" was literally a complaint levelled against 4th edition for the audacity of having keywording, monster rolls, defaulting to the grid, and using spell/ability cards from the get go. (*these changes have actually reappeared in 5th edition or in 3rd party products to great reception, albeit hidden under a lick of paint)
Fear of WotC/Hasbro—A lot of people don't trust Hasbro/WotC right now. I'm personally not gonna weigh in on the validity of that, but I will say that's a sentiment that is actively fed and nurtured by discontent creators who objectively profit off such negative sentiments. As such, those that don't trust HasbotC/Wotbro have an immediate distrust of any decisions made by them regardless of the validity of them. The decision to refer to a starter set using the term "boardgame" is a bad decision for no other reason than it was made by the evil gaolers of the sacred cow of D&D.
Fear of change—People are assuming that the term boardgame does not represent a marketing decision, but a change regarding how the game will work. And this change, like all changes, is bad because it's not a change they asked for and if they didn't ask for it, someone else did. Which means if WotC is listening to someone else, they're not the target demographic so they must either adapt to the change or be left behind. And no one wants to be left behind. But honestly, it's inevitable—D&D changes a little day by day and one day it'll change into something you or I just does not enjoy anymore (also you and I will change too and this can also lead to a divergence from D&D). But as they say, this too will pass.
By the strictest definition, D&D is not a board game because it doesn't actually have a game board. Of course, that's absurdly over-specific, since it doesn't even cover tile-based games, and I don't think most people would argue that Settlers of Catan is not a board game. The new starter set does not specify the format of the maps, but given that it specifies 18 maps and doesn't mention tiles, I'd bet on either a map booklet or poster maps (a map booklet is hard to use in play without accessories that aren't mentioned, so I would think poster maps, but that's a lot of poster maps. Unless it's something like 18 8.5x11 cards that you can lay out as needed, which would probably work for the caves of chaos).
I suspect that many people who end up purchasing and/or playing the game will realize that it's something more than most board games, but I doubt seriously that anyone is going to be mad about it or feel cheated somehow. I just hope that some (most?) of them fall in love with it and find some of the joy/passion that so many of us have.
By the strictest definition, D&D is not a board game because it doesn't actually have a game board. Of course, that's absurdly over-specific, since it doesn't even cover tile-based games, and I don't think most people would argue that Settlers of Catan is not a board game. The new starter set does not specify the format of the maps, but given that it specifies 18 maps and doesn't mention tiles, I'd bet on either a map booklet or poster maps (a map booklet is hard to use in play without accessories that aren't mentioned, so I would think poster maps, but that's a lot of poster maps. Unless it's something like 18 8.5x11 cards that you can lay out as needed, which would probably work for the caves of chaos).
By at least some strict definitions (including mine), D&D isn't even a "game". But that's getting into picky semantics that are only (maybe) useful in highly technical discussions.
In common parlance, "board game" includes a lot of things without fixed boards (Catan), or where construction of a board-like object is the point of the game (Carcassonne), or where the "board" is just a score tracker/reference/organizer (Gates of Loyang), or a tableau of cards (Splendor). If you invite some friends over for a boardgame night, and end up playing nothing but card games, nobody is going to say they were deceived. (OK, a few people will. They never get invited back to boardgame nights.)
If people can play Descent, and think it's a boardgame (which it is), a D&D set with provided maps and counters isn't really much different.
(Indeed, when I recruited for my 4e game back in the day, I got 40% of my players by asking the people who I happened to be playing Descent with at a boardgame meetup.)
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I've been checking out the pre-order for the new Starter Set as it looks like a great way to introduce new players to the game!
And you know what?! I was ready to buy it! The Ultimate (Physical + Digital) bundle and everthing!
Until I hit checkout... and a nitpick I'm just not gonna get past: Shipping Charges.
Seriously, this product is poised to bring in new players and the D&D Beyond store wants friction on the Shipping?
The Storefront even says "free shipping on $65+" and the bundle is $64.99 ($54.99 after the discount, sure), and even though the physical product stand-alone is only $49.99, maybe Wizards, just maybe, call it "good enough" and waive that Shipping?
I mean... Why put any kind of obstacle between an introductory product like this and positioning it in front of as many players, especially *new* players, as possible?
Then again, you're a billion dollar company and I'm just some internet rando, so what do I know?
Well I know I ain't gonna pay for shipping to get the Starter Set, and I passed on buying it. Eh...
*Thoughts shared have a cash value of 2 coppers. Your mileage may vary. Results, and safety, not guaranteed. Offer not valid in Detroit.
My nitpick is:
They refer to D&D as the "board game" portion. Board game? Seriously?
I used to play this with 3 books, a pencil, paper and some dice. That's not a board game, that's a roleplaying game.
This is nothing but marketing to hopefully get someone that plays board games to maybe buy it.
I hope it is worth it.
It's a starter set designed to bring people into D&D, people who are most likely more familiar with the term "board game" and less familiar with the term "tabletop roleplaying game". It's going for accessible, introductory parlance, not precise language.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
5th edition combat is basically designed around miniatures. And combat is one of the most intensive parts of the rules.
Calling it also a board game is not a stretch.
Yeah, if you have an account on the D&D Beyond forums already, you're not the target audience for that ad copy.
pronouns: he/she/they
Very good point
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Try to find one at your friendly Local Game Store, and then see if the value would be better if you bought the physical one in person and the Digital one here.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
Buying physical elsewhere and waiting for a sale on digital here is the way to save money, you do not get any of the "perks" or early access so there's that to consider. Though I wonder how many people are using their 50th Anniversary Golden Dragon mini?
The digital one for Sigil? Everyone got it, most probably didn’t use it. And I highly doubt it was a deciding factor for most.
Well used or not, they marketed the snot out of it lol.
And after the dust settled buying physical from a retailer and the digital here was a better deal if the perks were of no use, not to mention you could get the alt covers and save money too.
If you actually look at the summary of what's in the boxed set, it includes a number of rather board-game like accessories, such as
I play board games. And Table top RPGs. If there are parts of the game not in the rules, it's an RPG.
D&D is not a board game.
The starter set is a simplified version of D&D with boards game-like pieces but it's still an RPG.
Does it actually matter that they refer to it as a board game in marketing copy that's obviously not intended for you?
pronouns: he/she/they
I feel this definition inadvertently puts a lot of boardgames into the RPG category. I've played loads of boardgames that have key interactions that aren't the rules, everything from Catan to Twilight Imperium. I'd argue that boardgame and TTRPG are fuzzy terms with lots of overlap. There are boardgames with a lot of TTRPG elements (such as Gloomhaven or the official D&D boardgames) and there are TTRPGs with a lot of boardgame elements (such as out-of-the box games and adventures).
Or it is? Point is "does it matter?"
It can be both? It can be referred to as one in one context and the other in another.
For example, if I'm explaining D&D to someone inside the TTRPG space who (somehow) is unaware of what D&D is specifically, I might say "It's a genre-spanning fantasy TTRPG that focuses in mid-level crunch, class/species based characters and leans into action-drama fantasy tropes with lots of classic monster from mythologies, as well as iconic original ones".
If I was explaining it to someone who plays "advanced" boardgames (think Twilight Imperium or Scythe or Gloomhaven or any legacy game) but zero TTRPG experience, I might say "It's like a board game except the rules are much more flexible and there's a focus on narrative 'roleplay' which is an emphasis on in-character decision making rather than what is out-of-character optimital or tactical. The story is what matters, especially as it often persists between sessions forming a campaign"
And if I was explaining it to someone whose experience extends literally as far as chess, checkers, or snakes & ladders, I'd probably say "It's a board game where everyone plays a character and pretends to be that character and the person running the game describes the world you're playing in and exploring. It has a story like a TV show that carries over between sessions like a show has episodes"
Calling D&D a board game is what's often referred to a "lie to children" approach to explanation—to onboard someone to a complicated concept, you intentionally "lie" to them so that later on you can say "Actually what I said wasn't fully accurate and here's a better explanation" which then is also a "lie" and then you repeat this on the journey to understanding. The model of the atom is a classic example of this explanation model:
and so on and so forth. Calling D&D a board game is around the "atoms are little balls" level of explanation, whereas people discussing D&D on the official D&D forum are around the level of discussing the quantum mechanical nature of electrons and leptons.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Yeah. Like all genre distinctions, there are no hard borders. Given any definitions of "board game" and "RPG", one can come up with examples that fit both, unless they're so constrained that there's a huge space in between that fits neither. Catan is a board game, with negotiations. If you add a few mechanics so that the players create characters, and are now negotiating in character, it's spilling over hard into the RPG zone. Tabletop wargaming is a board game, and we know exactly how it turns into an RPG.
Looking at the description of the set, I really don't see what there is for anybody to get mad about. It looks like it's just D&D, formatted and marketed to try to bring in new players, in particular board gamers.
Some people just very instinctively get angry when there's a thing that's not for them.
pronouns: he/she/they
I think there are a few factors at work:
Referring to D&D as a "boardgame" in any capacity is seen as committing the sin of simplification—D&D being "boardgameified" was literally a complaint levelled against 4th edition for the audacity of having keywording, monster rolls, defaulting to the grid, and using spell/ability cards from the get go. (*these changes have actually reappeared in 5th edition or in 3rd party products to great reception, albeit hidden under a lick of paint)
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
By the strictest definition, D&D is not a board game because it doesn't actually have a game board. Of course, that's absurdly over-specific, since it doesn't even cover tile-based games, and I don't think most people would argue that Settlers of Catan is not a board game. The new starter set does not specify the format of the maps, but given that it specifies 18 maps and doesn't mention tiles, I'd bet on either a map booklet or poster maps (a map booklet is hard to use in play without accessories that aren't mentioned, so I would think poster maps, but that's a lot of poster maps. Unless it's something like 18 8.5x11 cards that you can lay out as needed, which would probably work for the caves of chaos).
I suspect that many people who end up purchasing and/or playing the game will realize that it's something more than most board games, but I doubt seriously that anyone is going to be mad about it or feel cheated somehow. I just hope that some (most?) of them fall in love with it and find some of the joy/passion that so many of us have.
By at least some strict definitions (including mine), D&D isn't even a "game". But that's getting into picky semantics that are only (maybe) useful in highly technical discussions.
In common parlance, "board game" includes a lot of things without fixed boards (Catan), or where construction of a board-like object is the point of the game (Carcassonne), or where the "board" is just a score tracker/reference/organizer (Gates of Loyang), or a tableau of cards (Splendor). If you invite some friends over for a boardgame night, and end up playing nothing but card games, nobody is going to say they were deceived. (OK, a few people will. They never get invited back to boardgame nights.)
If people can play Descent, and think it's a boardgame (which it is), a D&D set with provided maps and counters isn't really much different.
(Indeed, when I recruited for my 4e game back in the day, I got 40% of my players by asking the people who I happened to be playing Descent with at a boardgame meetup.)