Fun fact: Tomb of Annhilation is actually a prequel to Tomb of horrors; in Annihilation Accerack is still a lich wheras in horrors he's a demi-lich.
Funner fact: Return to Tomb of Horrors established that the Tomb of Horrors demilich was actually another decoy.
Another fun fact: Vecna: Eve of Ruin contains another Acererak tomb ("Tomb of Wayward Souls"), with another version of Acererak.
Return to the Tomb of horrors isn't canon to 5e
How is it determined whether a 2E adventure is canon to 5E? Or is it just that 5E's information conflicts with changes in 2E?
Whether it is in 1st-party official 5e books' printed lore.
SO nothing TSR, nothing 3.5e, nothing 4e, nothing by novelists that isn't strictly reflected in the 1st-party official books verbatim.
People love to claim Ed Greenwood, R. A. Salvatore, & Hickman & Weiss have a say in 5e lore discussions. That's not strictly true, but people love to consider that homebrew as RAW in their games.
WotC is free to adapt those & add them to the canon lore, but, even if I love the 2nd-party lore of Jarlaxle, he's only been referred to as Jarlaxle Banrae in 5e lore, so that is his name in 5e unless the new FR book explains the spoiler regarding that given last name.
Also, a lot of lore discussions tend to justify x being canon to y or how things work, but the problem with those is the "Other Stuff Exists" Fallacy.
Do I think 5e needs more 1st-party lore? It wouldn't stop the people complaining about page bloat in the slightest, & people whose primary but valid interest is the combat pillar would ignore it, and their issues with retracting lore would still exist(God knows they don't have enough sensitivity consultants of enough backgrounds)...but their mealy-mouthed way of not declaring "this is how it is in X" needs to stop:It reeks of Hasbro investors looking over their shoulder. More lore is good, as long as it has been vetted by people who know what they're talking about, ESPECIALLY regarding metaphors.
Return to the Tomb of Horrors has not been fully reflected in 5e lore, & thus isn't canon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Fun fact: Tomb of Annhilation is actually a prequel to Tomb of horrors; in Annihilation Accerack is still a lich wheras in horrors he's a demi-lich.
Funner fact: Return to Tomb of Horrors established that the Tomb of Horrors demilich was actually another decoy.
Another fun fact: Vecna: Eve of Ruin contains another Acererak tomb ("Tomb of Wayward Souls"), with another version of Acererak.
Return to the Tomb of horrors isn't canon to 5e
RttToH introduced the Demiplane of Moil, with is referenced in the 5e "Shadow of Moil" spell. Also, the 5e tWBtW campaign contains Moil references from RttToH.
Regardless, ToA is never presented as a prequel to ToH. VEoR says that Acererak is a lich (not demilich) and provides more details about him: "The most famous of Acererak’s tombs is the Tomb of Horrors, which has claimed many adventurers throughout its history. Another infamous tomb is the Tomb of the Nine Gods, in which Acererak sealed nine false gods he had slain there. He has additional tombs on Oerth, in Faerûn, and beyond."
If desired: the Infernal Machine Rebuild adventure contains time travel and is presented as a prequel to Tomb of Horrors.
Fun fact: Tomb of Annhilation is actually a prequel to Tomb of horrors; in Annihilation Accerack is still a lich wheras in horrors he's a demi-lich.
Funner fact: Return to Tomb of Horrors established that the Tomb of Horrors demilich was actually another decoy.
Another fun fact: Vecna: Eve of Ruin contains another Acererak tomb ("Tomb of Wayward Souls"), with another version of Acererak.
Return to the Tomb of horrors isn't canon to 5e
RttToH introduced the Demiplane of Moil, with is referenced in the 5e "Shadow of Moil" spell. Also, the 5e tWBtW campaign contains Moil references from RttToH. Regardless, ToA is never presented as a prequel to ToH. VEoR says that Acererak is a lich (not demilich) and provides more details about him: "The most famous of Acererak’s tombs is the Tomb of Horrors, which has claimed many adventurers throughout its history. Another infamous tomb is the Tomb of the Nine Gods, in which Acererak sealed nine false gods he had slain there. He has additional tombs on Oerth, in Faerûn, and beyond."
If desired: the Infernal Machine Rebuild adventure contains time travel and is presented as a prequel to Tomb of Horrors.
My followup post clarified my position.
If it isn't VERBATIM stated, it should be treated as a reference/cameo, not verbatim canon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Fun fact: Tomb of Annhilation is actually a prequel to Tomb of horrors; in Annihilation Accerack is still a lich wheras in horrors he's a demi-lich.
Funner fact: Return to Tomb of Horrors established that the Tomb of Horrors demilich was actually another decoy.
Another fun fact: Vecna: Eve of Ruin contains another Acererak tomb ("Tomb of Wayward Souls"), with another version of Acererak.
Return to the Tomb of horrors isn't canon to 5e
RttToH introduced the Demiplane of Moil, with is referenced in the 5e "Shadow of Moil" spell. Also, the 5e tWBtW campaign contains Moil references from RttToH. Regardless, ToA is never presented as a prequel to ToH. VEoR says that Acererak is a lich (not demilich) and provides more details about him: "The most famous of Acererak’s tombs is the Tomb of Horrors, which has claimed many adventurers throughout its history. Another infamous tomb is the Tomb of the Nine Gods, in which Acererak sealed nine false gods he had slain there. He has additional tombs on Oerth, in Faerûn, and beyond."
If desired: the Infernal Machine Rebuild adventure contains time travel and is presented as a prequel to Tomb of Horrors.
My followup post clarified my position.
If it isn't VERBATIM stated, it should be treated as a reference/cameo, not verbatim canon.
None of this discussion on what is or is not canon is helpful to this thread. OP is looking for Tomb of Horror-like options to challenge high level players, so guidance on what resources are out there with a similar vibe is helpful. Whether those are canon or not is irrelevant - the only canon that really matters in D&D is what an individual table decides, and if the OP uses one of these other Tomb of Horror inspired dungeons as inspiration, that is now canon for their game.
Personally, as someone who enjoys DMing at Tier 4 (just finished up a campaign where we played at level 20 for a few months), enjoys reading older edition high level content for both fun and inspiration, and has been sorely disappointed by the 5e epic level options (including, as I said, the laughably watered down Tomb of Horrors), I found the discussion of some other options and existing ports to be very interesting and helpful.
As someone still following this thread for its original purpose because I am curious at what folks come up with, I hope we can get back on topic.
None of this discussion on what is or is not canon is helpful to this thread. OP is looking for Tomb of Horror-like options to challenge high level players, so guidance on what resources are out there with a similar vibe is helpful. Whether those are canon or not is irrelevant - the only canon that really matters in D&D is what an individual table decides, and if the OP uses one of these other Tomb of Horror inspired dungeons as inspiration, that is now canon for their game.
Personally, as someone who enjoys DMing at Tier 4 (just finished up a campaign where we played at level 20 for a few months), enjoys reading older edition high level content for both fun and inspiration, and has been sorely disappointed by the 5e epic level options (including, as I said, the laughably watered down Tomb of Horrors), I found the discussion of some other options and existing ports to be very interesting and helpful.
As someone still following this thread for its original purpose because I am curious at what folks come up with, I hope we can get back on topic.
Thank you Caerwyn Glyndwr,
I appreciate your post!
The discussion has gotten off of the topic that I was asking about, and I have already received my answer, so no further discussion is really needed. I wish as the OP that I could mark a forum discussion complete to close it out, but alas, that is not an option.
Cheers!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty. Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers; Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas. Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.
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How is it determined whether a 2E adventure is canon to 5E? Or is it just that 5E's information conflicts with changes in 2E?
Whether it is in 1st-party official 5e books' printed lore.
SO nothing TSR, nothing 3.5e, nothing 4e, nothing by novelists that isn't strictly reflected in the 1st-party official books verbatim.
People love to claim Ed Greenwood, R. A. Salvatore, & Hickman & Weiss have a say in 5e lore discussions. That's not strictly true, but people love to consider that homebrew as RAW in their games.
WotC is free to adapt those & add them to the canon lore, but, even if I love the 2nd-party lore of Jarlaxle, he's only been referred to as Jarlaxle Banrae in 5e lore, so that is his name in 5e unless the new FR book explains the spoiler regarding that given last name.
Also, a lot of lore discussions tend to justify x being canon to y or how things work, but the problem with those is the "Other Stuff Exists" Fallacy.
Do I think 5e needs more 1st-party lore? It wouldn't stop the people complaining about page bloat in the slightest, & people whose primary but valid interest is the combat pillar would ignore it, and their issues with retracting lore would still exist(God knows they don't have enough sensitivity consultants of enough backgrounds)...but their mealy-mouthed way of not declaring "this is how it is in X" needs to stop:It reeks of Hasbro investors looking over their shoulder. More lore is good, as long as it has been vetted by people who know what they're talking about, ESPECIALLY regarding metaphors.
Return to the Tomb of Horrors has not been fully reflected in 5e lore, & thus isn't canon.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
RttToH introduced the Demiplane of Moil, with is referenced in the 5e "Shadow of Moil" spell. Also, the 5e tWBtW campaign contains Moil references from RttToH.
Regardless, ToA is never presented as a prequel to ToH. VEoR says that Acererak is a lich (not demilich) and provides more details about him: "The most famous of Acererak’s tombs is the Tomb of Horrors, which has claimed many adventurers throughout its history. Another infamous tomb is the Tomb of the Nine Gods, in which Acererak sealed nine false gods he had slain there. He has additional tombs on Oerth, in Faerûn, and beyond."
If desired: the Infernal Machine Rebuild adventure contains time travel and is presented as a prequel to Tomb of Horrors.
My followup post clarified my position.
If it isn't VERBATIM stated, it should be treated as a reference/cameo, not verbatim canon.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
None of this discussion on what is or is not canon is helpful to this thread. OP is looking for Tomb of Horror-like options to challenge high level players, so guidance on what resources are out there with a similar vibe is helpful. Whether those are canon or not is irrelevant - the only canon that really matters in D&D is what an individual table decides, and if the OP uses one of these other Tomb of Horror inspired dungeons as inspiration, that is now canon for their game.
Personally, as someone who enjoys DMing at Tier 4 (just finished up a campaign where we played at level 20 for a few months), enjoys reading older edition high level content for both fun and inspiration, and has been sorely disappointed by the 5e epic level options (including, as I said, the laughably watered down Tomb of Horrors), I found the discussion of some other options and existing ports to be very interesting and helpful.
As someone still following this thread for its original purpose because I am curious at what folks come up with, I hope we can get back on topic.
Thank you Caerwyn Glyndwr,
I appreciate your post!
The discussion has gotten off of the topic that I was asking about, and I have already received my answer, so no further discussion is really needed.
I wish as the OP that I could mark a forum discussion complete to close it out, but alas, that is not an option.
Cheers!
Breathe, dragons; sing of the First World, forged out of chaos and painted with beauty.
Sing of Bahamut, the Platinum, molding the shape of the mountains and rivers;
Sing too of Chromatic Tiamat, painting all over the infinite canvas.
Partnered, they woke in the darkness; partnered, they labored in acts of creation.