I'm starting this thread to leave a product review for "Heroes of the Borderlands." I can't find any other threads regarding product reviews but I feel we should be able to discuss products, both for customer discussion and for designer/company feedback.
I did want this... I wanted it bad! I cut my teeth on the original Keep on the Borderlands back in 1978 or so, and I used to run the adventure for my friends at summer camp and in junior high school. So I was really excited to find out that the powers that be were "updating" the original for 2024 D&D.
Wow, was I disappointed. This version is completely pasteurized. I'll give them props for saying it's great to teach new people how to play the game (assuming that they like a fun, friendly setting with absolutely **NO** amount of grittiness or dark threats). But yeah, this would have made a great Saturday morning cartoon about 20 years ago. This is like the Cocomelonversion of D&D.
If you already know how to play: Save. Your. Money.They tell you this can be played by experienced players, but considering that any experienced players are going to expect more of a gritty, threatening setting, they are bound to be disappointed. It only comes with 4 PCs, so if you have 5 or more players, you're going to need to make more PCs. The encounters are overall very weak and non-threatening; very simple to overcome, and when you consider that most monsters and treasure are generated randomly by **YOU**, the purchaser, it feels lazy and unfinished.
If I'm shelling out $60 for an adventure, I want a lot more than this... I want built-in scaling, with specific directions/suggestions for making it harder (or easier), for larger groups or more experienced players. I want real threats that players have to work and strategize to overcome, or at least an "advanced player" option built-in. I want specific treasure placement, with maybe some random stuff thrown in for flavor in tucked away corners. Random placement everywhere feels like something a child would have written... or more like a random card game or deck-building card game, perhaps. "Okay, you talked to the kobolds and convinced them they're bad people for stealing eggs... draw a card. Ooh, magic plate mail armor! Congratulations!"
Overall, like I said, I'm disappointed. I wanted a rewritten update of one of my favorite old school adventure modules. What I got was a child's TV program with dice. Frankly, I'm sorry I spent my money on this.
"If I'm shelling out $60 for an adventure" You're not though, you're "shelling out" $50 (physical only)/$60 (digital+physical) for a Starter Set designed to introduce players to the game.
Valid reviews evaluate a product on its ability to deliver what it advertises. This product never advertises itself at a gritty or challenging adventure for experienced players, so it seems disingenuous to review it as such. It's not a remake/update of Keep on the Borderlands, it's inspired by it (hence being called Heroes of the Borderlands).
It sounds like you purchased this solely on seeing the words "the Borderlands" and making a misguided assumption rather than actually reading what the product is about. This is not a failure of the product to deliver, this is a failure of the consumer to make an informed purchase. Reviews are only of value if they're actually valid, and they're only valid if they're actually reviewing the product for what it claims to be
any experienced players are going to expect more of a gritty, threatening setting, they are bound to be disappointed.
Seconding what Davyd posted, but I did want to address this particular line out.
I enjoy gritty settings and I enjoy threatening settings. When I DM, players know they need at least two users of Revivify in the party for redundancy, and that even resurrection magic has a home ruled chance of failure (I use a much harsher version of CR’s escalating difficulty for resurrection).
But I know plenty of people who are extremely experienced, with decades under their belt, that just want to get together with friends, toss some dice, and have fun in a generally safe and/or not gritty heroic fantasy world. It is not the style of play, but those players very much do exist and your use of “any” in the sentence above denies their very existence as members of our community.
Plus, some of the elements of Keep of the Borderlands that were “gritty” were intentionally added by Gygax because of problematic views he had (for example, Gygax expressed support for genocide for tribal cultures, and specifically said he thought “good” people could slaughter children - making his inclusion of how many tribal children were in each location extremely problematic). Grit is fine, but intentionally adding hate to the game is not, and the original crosses that line. For this reason, the starter set was never going to be a direct reboot of Keep of the Borderlands - nor should it have been.
Soooooo your complaint is that the beginner friendly starter set is beginner friendly? Most of your complaints fall back to that, and for the lack of grit, i am going to need more details, because everything from Wound management, rations all the way to necklaces of ears have been called "grit."
Just use the maps and assets to formulate your own adventure now that you have the set, it is what most DMs do when something isn't to their taste. Add the things you miss from the old module back in, or go even older school and read "The House on The Borderland" by William Hope Hodgson and use that as a gritty Cosmic horror starting point. It may be disappointing to us Veterans of the game, but that isn't who it is for, it is for the newcomers.
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He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player. The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call To rise up in triumph should we all unite The spark for change is yours to ignite." Kalandra - The State of the World
any experienced players are going to expect more of a gritty, threatening setting, they are bound to be disappointed.
Seconding what Davyd posted, but I did want to address this particular line out.
I enjoy gritty settings and I enjoy threatening settings. When I DM, players know they need at least two users of Revivify in the party for redundancy, and that even resurrection magic has a home ruled chance of failure (I use a much harsher version of CR’s escalating difficulty for resurrection).
But I know plenty of people who are extremely experienced, with decades under their belt, that just want to get together with friends, toss some dice, and have fun in a generally safe and/or not gritty heroic fantasy world. It is not the style of play, but those players very much do exist and your use of “any” in the sentence above denies their very existence as members of our community.
Plus, some of the elements of Keep of the Borderlands that were “gritty” were intentionally added by Gygax because of problematic views he had (for example, Gygax expressed support for genocide for tribal cultures, and specifically said he thought “good” people could slaughter children - making his inclusion of how many tribal children were in each location extremely problematic). Grit is fine, but intentionally adding hate to the game is not, and the original crosses that line. For this reason, the starter set was never going to be a direct reboot of Keep of the Borderlands - nor should it have been.
Good points, and of course I can always add the level of grit that I want/prefer. I'm just disappointed that something this expansive and expensive didn't add those advanced options in the core material. Instead it forces me to do most of the work myself, which frankly, I could have done with the original module if I were prepared to put the work in. Every printed adventure path includes optional suggestions for larger groups or tougher/more experienced parties; this package does not seem to offer those options.
Can I make it work? Certainly. Is the time involved worth it? Uncertain, but for the amount of money they charged, I was hoping I wouldn't have to.
Soooooo your complaint is that the beginner friendly starter set is beginner friendly? Most of your complaints fall back to that, and for the lack of grit, i am going to need more details, because everything from Wound management, rations all the way to necklaces of ears have been called "grit."
Just use the maps and assets to formulate your own adventure now that you have the set, it is what most DMs do when something isn't to their taste. Add the things you miss from the old module back in, or go even older school and read "The House on The Borderland" by William Hope Hodgson and use that as a gritty Cosmic horror starting point. It may be disappointing to us Veterans of the game, but that isn't who it is for, it is for the newcomers.
No, you misread... I said immediately in my original post that the box set was great for starting players. What it lacks is what every other supplement offers: suggestions and adjustments for larger groups and tougher/more experienced groups. By only including 4 characters in the game, even for beginners, that's a hard blow. "Sorry, we've already got 4 players and we're beginners so we don't know how to get around that. You can't play." Just like a game of Parcheesi, they (arbitrarily?) maxed it out for four players. Personally, I've never played with so few players. I know some do; I have not.
Yes, I realize I can use the packaged information to springboard my own homebrew rendition. For the money they charged, I was hoping I wouldn't have to. Frankly, if I wanted to put in that amount of work, I could have used the original printed adventure from the late 70's.
Like Davyd said, this is a STARTER SET for NEW PLAYERS. New players will not be able to survive challenging combats and probably don't want dark, gritty content. A STARTER SET does not need advice on using it for experienced players.
Soooooo your complaint is that the beginner friendly starter set is beginner friendly? Most of your complaints fall back to that, and for the lack of grit, i am going to need more details, because everything from Wound management, rations all the way to necklaces of ears have been called "grit."
Just use the maps and assets to formulate your own adventure now that you have the set, it is what most DMs do when something isn't to their taste. Add the things you miss from the old module back in, or go even older school and read "The House on The Borderland" by William Hope Hodgson and use that as a gritty Cosmic horror starting point. It may be disappointing to us Veterans of the game, but that isn't who it is for, it is for the newcomers.
No, you misread... I said immediately in my original post that the box set was great for starting players.
Then your review should have stopped there. The starter set for starting players is great for starting players. The product does what it is designed to do. End of review. 10/10, no notes
Continuing your review with "...but it failed to do all these things it was never advertised to do and are completely out-of-scope for its design" is basically bizarre rambling.
Imagine you run a Subway franchise. You just do subs. Then you see a review that says "They had great subs, amazing options, loved it. But when I asked for a milkshake and fries, they said they only do subs which is not what I expect from a food establishment. 1/5 stars". You'd write that review off as absurd. The same logic applies to your review.
I'm starting this thread to leave a product review for "Heroes of the Borderlands." I can't find any other threads regarding product reviews but I feel we should be able to discuss products, both for customer discussion and for designer/company feedback.
I did want this... I wanted it bad! I cut my teeth on the original Keep on the Borderlands back in 1978 or so, and I used to run the adventure for my friends at summer camp and in junior high school. So I was really excited to find out that the powers that be were "updating" the original for 2024 D&D.
Wow, was I disappointed. This version is completely pasteurized. I'll give them props for saying it's great to teach new people how to play the game (assuming that they like a fun, friendly setting with absolutely **NO** amount of grittiness or dark threats). But yeah, this would have made a great Saturday morning cartoon about 20 years ago. This is like the Cocomelon version of D&D.
If you already know how to play: Save. Your. Money. They tell you this can be played by experienced players, but considering that any experienced players are going to expect more of a gritty, threatening setting, they are bound to be disappointed. It only comes with 4 PCs, so if you have 5 or more players, you're going to need to make more PCs. The encounters are overall very weak and non-threatening; very simple to overcome, and when you consider that most monsters and treasure are generated randomly by **YOU**, the purchaser, it feels lazy and unfinished.
If I'm shelling out $60 for an adventure, I want a lot more than this... I want built-in scaling, with specific directions/suggestions for making it harder (or easier), for larger groups or more experienced players. I want real threats that players have to work and strategize to overcome, or at least an "advanced player" option built-in. I want specific treasure placement, with maybe some random stuff thrown in for flavor in tucked away corners. Random placement everywhere feels like something a child would have written... or more like a random card game or deck-building card game, perhaps. "Okay, you talked to the kobolds and convinced them they're bad people for stealing eggs... draw a card. Ooh, magic plate mail armor! Congratulations!"
Overall, like I said, I'm disappointed. I wanted a rewritten update of one of my favorite old school adventure modules. What I got was a child's TV program with dice. Frankly, I'm sorry I spent my money on this.
"If I'm shelling out $60 for an adventure" You're not though, you're "shelling out" $50 (physical only)/$60 (digital+physical) for a Starter Set designed to introduce players to the game.
Valid reviews evaluate a product on its ability to deliver what it advertises. This product never advertises itself at a gritty or challenging adventure for experienced players, so it seems disingenuous to review it as such. It's not a remake/update of Keep on the Borderlands, it's inspired by it (hence being called Heroes of the Borderlands).
It sounds like you purchased this solely on seeing the words "the Borderlands" and making a misguided assumption rather than actually reading what the product is about. This is not a failure of the product to deliver, this is a failure of the consumer to make an informed purchase. Reviews are only of value if they're actually valid, and they're only valid if they're actually reviewing the product for what it claims to be
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Seconding what Davyd posted, but I did want to address this particular line out.
I enjoy gritty settings and I enjoy threatening settings. When I DM, players know they need at least two users of Revivify in the party for redundancy, and that even resurrection magic has a home ruled chance of failure (I use a much harsher version of CR’s escalating difficulty for resurrection).
But I know plenty of people who are extremely experienced, with decades under their belt, that just want to get together with friends, toss some dice, and have fun in a generally safe and/or not gritty heroic fantasy world. It is not the style of play, but those players very much do exist and your use of “any” in the sentence above denies their very existence as members of our community.
Plus, some of the elements of Keep of the Borderlands that were “gritty” were intentionally added by Gygax because of problematic views he had (for example, Gygax expressed support for genocide for tribal cultures, and specifically said he thought “good” people could slaughter children - making his inclusion of how many tribal children were in each location extremely problematic). Grit is fine, but intentionally adding hate to the game is not, and the original crosses that line. For this reason, the starter set was never going to be a direct reboot of Keep of the Borderlands - nor should it have been.
Soooooo your complaint is that the beginner friendly starter set is beginner friendly? Most of your complaints fall back to that, and for the lack of grit, i am going to need more details, because everything from Wound management, rations all the way to necklaces of ears have been called "grit."
Just use the maps and assets to formulate your own adventure now that you have the set, it is what most DMs do when something isn't to their taste. Add the things you miss from the old module back in, or go even older school and read "The House on The Borderland" by William Hope Hodgson and use that as a gritty Cosmic horror starting point.
It may be disappointing to us Veterans of the game, but that isn't who it is for, it is for the newcomers.
He/Him. Loooooooooong time Player.
The Dark days of the THAC0 system are behind us.
"Hope is a fire that burns in us all If only an ember, awaiting your call
To rise up in triumph should we all unite
The spark for change is yours to ignite."
Kalandra - The State of the World
Good points, and of course I can always add the level of grit that I want/prefer. I'm just disappointed that something this expansive and expensive didn't add those advanced options in the core material. Instead it forces me to do most of the work myself, which frankly, I could have done with the original module if I were prepared to put the work in. Every printed adventure path includes optional suggestions for larger groups or tougher/more experienced parties; this package does not seem to offer those options.
Can I make it work? Certainly. Is the time involved worth it? Uncertain, but for the amount of money they charged, I was hoping I wouldn't have to.
No, you misread... I said immediately in my original post that the box set was great for starting players. What it lacks is what every other supplement offers: suggestions and adjustments for larger groups and tougher/more experienced groups. By only including 4 characters in the game, even for beginners, that's a hard blow. "Sorry, we've already got 4 players and we're beginners so we don't know how to get around that. You can't play." Just like a game of Parcheesi, they (arbitrarily?) maxed it out for four players. Personally, I've never played with so few players. I know some do; I have not.
Yes, I realize I can use the packaged information to springboard my own homebrew rendition. For the money they charged, I was hoping I wouldn't have to. Frankly, if I wanted to put in that amount of work, I could have used the original printed adventure from the late 70's.
Like Davyd said, this is a STARTER SET for NEW PLAYERS. New players will not be able to survive challenging combats and probably don't want dark, gritty content. A STARTER SET does not need advice on using it for experienced players.
Then your review should have stopped there. The starter set for starting players is great for starting players. The product does what it is designed to do. End of review. 10/10, no notes
Continuing your review with "...but it failed to do all these things it was never advertised to do and are completely out-of-scope for its design" is basically bizarre rambling.
Imagine you run a Subway franchise. You just do subs. Then you see a review that says "They had great subs, amazing options, loved it. But when I asked for a milkshake and fries, they said they only do subs which is not what I expect from a food establishment. 1/5 stars". You'd write that review off as absurd. The same logic applies to your review.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here