i dont think that is a great way to look at it. Sure in a pinch it may save you and warlocks have fewer defensive options. but if shield were a 9th level spell it being able to save you in a pinch doesn't make it balanced at 9th level. Anything above 2nd level and you are starting to compete with heavy hitter spells. sure its a rare reduce dmg do dmg spell, but is it in the same ballpark of balance as even fireball. nope. wall of fire, nope. it having a narrow niche where it may be the best option doesn't make it balanced no matter what level spell it is. drop the damage a die and its a 2nd level spell. drop it to 2d6 and its a 1st level spell. which would still be a bad option to upcast past 2nd level for most casters, and probably something you will unlearn as a warlock.
The lack of alternatives is irrelevant to whether a spell is balanced. The response to "this class does not have a spell that fills this niche like the Warlock has and we want them to have it" is not "let's make a similar spell then make it a few levels higher than comparative spells".
Let's say I created a spell that automatically hits its target. Then, every turn, it auto hits two more targets within range of your choice, for the duration of 1 minute. The catch? It does 1 damage each hit. If I then made it level 9, who'd line up for it? That there isn't another spell that works like that is irrelevant - it's a very poor return for resources invested.
The lack of competition is irrelevant.
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Its a poor return of investment that's for sure, but on a Warlock that already upcasts spells, it's an acceptable choice. I never said the spell is the greatest thing ever, but it's not as horrible as it's being made to be (I can think of worse ones).
in general I find most reaction spells to have a poor use case when you first get them. Its only when you start having higher and higher slots available that the slots they are associated with become more expendable. Once you have 5th and 6th level spells backlash will begin to look like a useful spell and less "expensive". Keeping yourself standing at higher level would be the main use here. In comparison to Hellish Rebuke, Force vs. Fire damage is an important consideration. This both mitigates any damage type and the damage it delivers is unlikely to be resisted. I would recommend it on a higher level caster who can afford to burn 4th level slots.
Pros: It is broadly useful. Can be used against any damage type or attack type or source. Mitigates and deals damage Reasonable range (60 ft) V component makes it extremely easy to use/doesn't require warcaster Force is a great damage type to deliver since it will likely not be resisted
Cons: Neither the healing nor damage individually are worth the spell level
The problem is even with the damage together its not worth it. Even at 12th level 4th level slots are expensive, you only have 3 and 2 5th and 1 6th. And that does not scale up much as you level. There is maybe a tiny use case for warlocks but odds are you have much better options for your 15 known spells you have a choice over. But due to their design they have a bit more leeway in taking super niche spells. And even with them taking it is more due to how royally screwed the warlock spell list is. If they had 1/2 the spells that thematically fit the warlock it wouldn't be on the table for one of your choices.
It wouldn’t be a cornerstone pick for me, but honestly if I was expecting a lot of fights in a day once I’m in tier 3 I might have it just as an emergency button. Absorb Elements doesn’t cover a lot of popular high level monster damages, and Shield only works on attack rolls within 5 of your AC, so this does provide some additional coverage. Wouldn’t use it if I wasn’t going down without it, but by tier 3 one prep slot isn’t that high of a cost to have the option.
In comparison to Hellish Rebuke, Force vs. Fire damage is an important consideration
Hellish Rebuke cast at 4th level is still going to do about as much damage against a creature with fire resistance as Backlash is
HR (5d10) -- 27.5 average, half is about 14. Max 50, half is 25
BL (4d6) -- 14 average, 24 max
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In comparison to Hellish Rebuke, Force vs. Fire damage is an important consideration
Hellish Rebuke cast at 4th level is still going to do about as much damage against a creature with fire resistance as Backlash is
HR (5d10) -- 27.5 average, half is about 14. Max 50, half is 25
BL (4d6) -- 14 average, 24 max
And it doesn’t do anything about the incoming damage; it’s better for punching back, but won’t keep you on your feet and requires either a specific race pick or blowing a class level to have available to most casters.
It wouldn’t be a cornerstone pick for me, but honestly if I was expecting a lot of fights in a day once I’m in tier 3 I might have it just as an emergency button. Absorb Elements doesn’t cover a lot of popular high level monster damages, and Shield only works on attack rolls within 5 of your AC, so this does provide some additional coverage. Wouldn’t use it if I wasn’t going down without it, but by tier 3 one prep slot isn’t that high of a cost to have the option.
For prep based casters prepping it isn't a massive cost, but its still not worth a 4th level slot. Even if I was getting knocked to 0 and this would prevent it. Unless I as at a table where the DM routinely coup de graced characters or it was looking like a party wipe, I'll just go down. A 1st level slot to get me on my feat is far cheaper. even if it comes after the fight is over.
In comparison to Hellish Rebuke, Force vs. Fire damage is an important consideration
Hellish Rebuke cast at 4th level is still going to do about as much damage against a creature with fire resistance as Backlash is
HR (5d10) -- 27.5 average, half is about 14. Max 50, half is 25
BL (4d6) -- 14 average, 24 max
And it doesn’t do anything about the incoming damage; it’s better for punching back, but won’t keep you on your feet and requires either a specific race pick or blowing a class level to have available to most casters.
One more time, since you seem determined to die on this hill... Backlash is a smidge of damage prevention (and this is in 5e24, where actual healing spells are boosted) better than an upcast 1st-level spell being used in a completely suboptimal situation. That's frankly pathetic
You are free to waste one of your limited spell picks on it if you want. How many incoming attacks do you think a 14-ish point reduction will actually make a difference against in Tier 3 play, anyway?
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I’ve acknowledged it’s situational, but the objective fact is that it does something Hellish Rebuke doesn’t and is more accessible, so the assertion that HR is superior in every way simply doesn’t hold up.
Its too strong for a 2nd level spell and too weak for a 5th level spell. That puts it in the 3rd vs. 4th spell level territory. In either case its going to be a situational spell. I think the action economy benefits, and damage type (force) push it into 4th level. I wish it was 3rd, but I am happy to see it and it will end up on a character sheet of mine in the future.
Average 18 points of damage mitigation is quite good when it can apply to any damage. That versatility is great, and force damage with a save for half is very reliable.
& again, optimization is a valid playstyle, but just because an element of the game doesn't play into a playstyle, doesn't mean it's bad.
My benchmark for a bad spell is Find Traps, & Backlash ranks in at well-above 2014 Resistance. Backlash DOES something, uses a reasonable damage type, is accessible & has more than 1 function built into it.
& again, optimization is a valid playstyle, but just because an element of the game doesn't play into a playstyle, doesn't mean it's bad.
My benchmark for a bad spell is Find Traps, & Backlash ranks in at well-above 2014 Resistance. Backlash DOES something, uses a reasonable damage type, is accessible & has more than 1 function built into it.
Everything is better than Find Traps, except for the UA spell Ego Whip 😂
& again, optimization is a valid playstyle, but just because an element of the game doesn't play into a playstyle, doesn't mean it's bad.
Yes, but the question was whether it's a good spell, not whether it's a bad spell. I would call it a "meh" spell -- if I had the spell I might cast it occasionally, but I doubt I would cast it particularly often and it's unlikely I'd miss it if I didn't have it.
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i dont think that is a great way to look at it. Sure in a pinch it may save you and warlocks have fewer defensive options. but if shield were a 9th level spell it being able to save you in a pinch doesn't make it balanced at 9th level. Anything above 2nd level and you are starting to compete with heavy hitter spells. sure its a rare reduce dmg do dmg spell, but is it in the same ballpark of balance as even fireball. nope. wall of fire, nope. it having a narrow niche where it may be the best option doesn't make it balanced no matter what level spell it is. drop the damage a die and its a 2nd level spell. drop it to 2d6 and its a 1st level spell. which would still be a bad option to upcast past 2nd level for most casters, and probably something you will unlearn as a warlock.
The lack of alternatives is irrelevant to whether a spell is balanced. The response to "this class does not have a spell that fills this niche like the Warlock has and we want them to have it" is not "let's make a similar spell then make it a few levels higher than comparative spells".
Let's say I created a spell that automatically hits its target. Then, every turn, it auto hits two more targets within range of your choice, for the duration of 1 minute. The catch? It does 1 damage each hit. If I then made it level 9, who'd line up for it? That there isn't another spell that works like that is irrelevant - it's a very poor return for resources invested.
The lack of competition is irrelevant.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Its a poor return of investment that's for sure, but on a Warlock that already upcasts spells, it's an acceptable choice. I never said the spell is the greatest thing ever, but it's not as horrible as it's being made to be (I can think of worse ones).
in general I find most reaction spells to have a poor use case when you first get them. Its only when you start having higher and higher slots available that the slots they are associated with become more expendable. Once you have 5th and 6th level spells backlash will begin to look like a useful spell and less "expensive". Keeping yourself standing at higher level would be the main use here. In comparison to Hellish Rebuke, Force vs. Fire damage is an important consideration. This both mitigates any damage type and the damage it delivers is unlikely to be resisted. I would recommend it on a higher level caster who can afford to burn 4th level slots.
Pros:
It is broadly useful. Can be used against any damage type or attack type or source.
Mitigates and deals damage
Reasonable range (60 ft)
V component makes it extremely easy to use/doesn't require warcaster
Force is a great damage type to deliver since it will likely not be resisted
Cons:
Neither the healing nor damage individually are worth the spell level
The problem is even with the damage together its not worth it. Even at 12th level 4th level slots are expensive, you only have 3 and 2 5th and 1 6th. And that does not scale up much as you level. There is maybe a tiny use case for warlocks but odds are you have much better options for your 15 known spells you have a choice over. But due to their design they have a bit more leeway in taking super niche spells. And even with them taking it is more due to how royally screwed the warlock spell list is. If they had 1/2 the spells that thematically fit the warlock it wouldn't be on the table for one of your choices.
It wouldn’t be a cornerstone pick for me, but honestly if I was expecting a lot of fights in a day once I’m in tier 3 I might have it just as an emergency button. Absorb Elements doesn’t cover a lot of popular high level monster damages, and Shield only works on attack rolls within 5 of your AC, so this does provide some additional coverage. Wouldn’t use it if I wasn’t going down without it, but by tier 3 one prep slot isn’t that high of a cost to have the option.
Hellish Rebuke cast at 4th level is still going to do about as much damage against a creature with fire resistance as Backlash is
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And it doesn’t do anything about the incoming damage; it’s better for punching back, but won’t keep you on your feet and requires either a specific race pick or blowing a class level to have available to most casters.
For prep based casters prepping it isn't a massive cost, but its still not worth a 4th level slot. Even if I was getting knocked to 0 and this would prevent it. Unless I as at a table where the DM routinely coup de graced characters or it was looking like a party wipe, I'll just go down. A 1st level slot to get me on my feat is far cheaper. even if it comes after the fight is over.
One more time, since you seem determined to die on this hill... Backlash is a smidge of damage prevention (and this is in 5e24, where actual healing spells are boosted) better than an upcast 1st-level spell being used in a completely suboptimal situation. That's frankly pathetic
You are free to waste one of your limited spell picks on it if you want. How many incoming attacks do you think a 14-ish point reduction will actually make a difference against in Tier 3 play, anyway?
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I’ve acknowledged it’s situational, but the objective fact is that it does something Hellish Rebuke doesn’t and is more accessible, so the assertion that HR is superior in every way simply doesn’t hold up.
Its too strong for a 2nd level spell and too weak for a 5th level spell. That puts it in the 3rd vs. 4th spell level territory. In either case its going to be a situational spell. I think the action economy benefits, and damage type (force) push it into 4th level. I wish it was 3rd, but I am happy to see it and it will end up on a character sheet of mine in the future.
Average 18 points of damage mitigation is quite good when it can apply to any damage. That versatility is great, and force damage with a save for half is very reliable.
& again, optimization is a valid playstyle, but just because an element of the game doesn't play into a playstyle, doesn't mean it's bad.
My benchmark for a bad spell is Find Traps, & Backlash ranks in at well-above 2014 Resistance. Backlash DOES something, uses a reasonable damage type, is accessible & has more than 1 function built into it.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Everything is better than Find Traps, except for the UA spell Ego Whip 😂
Yes, but the question was whether it's a good spell, not whether it's a bad spell. I would call it a "meh" spell -- if I had the spell I might cast it occasionally, but I doubt I would cast it particularly often and it's unlikely I'd miss it if I didn't have it.