What are you talking about? Both these ability clearly state they trigger when/as (functionality synonymous) you finish either type of rest
I'm not sure what you're talking about...the frustration was that according to the wording, you can't give a rousing speech just before entering battle like Theoden did unless the timing just happens to work perfectly, with you waking up and entering battle a minute later. It's an issue with the thematic nature of the feats due to their wording, not unclear phrasing.
Anyway, back to the original post, I think the idea is that you're giving a pep talk for the day, rather than a battle rousing speech. It used to be whenever you had ten minutes, so I think maybe it's to avoid the arguments of "oh, but if I'd have realised we were about to have a fight, I'd have used my fear" kind of deal. It's more complex than that, but that's what the disputes or arguments would boil down to. By attaching it to a short or long rest, they don't have the excuse.
I'd be fine as a DM with you doing it any time and just limiting it to once per rest. Depending on whether it's a one-shot or story campaign, I might not let you do it retroactively - you run the risk that you get ambushed or only warned shortly before combat or you forget, and lose the benefit. One-shots I'm less concerned about the narrative integrity of the mechanics and would probably just let you retcon it.
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If its a hex crawl campaign, i will be long resting with my party, so not a problem.
If i am normally long resting in my house or bastion or whstever, im going to wake up alone and cant use this feature.
The thing is heroic insparation dont expire until used and temp hp last until next long rest, so i could wake up in my house alone, ride into town to meet up with the rest of the party at the local Donut Shop, and hand out either of thesr features then, and they last all day.
Its not a thing that needs be handed out after we roll initiative. So there doesnt need to be arguments aboit whether you had 10 minutes to give a speech or song.
Besides a 10 minutr speech is going to start gett9ng boring. The St. Crispin's Day speech from shakespear's Henry V takes a minute and a half, and even then folks only remember "we happy few" and "these wounds i had on st crispens day". During WW1, medal of honor recipient Dan Daly rallied a large group of marines to charge with some variation of "come on you lunks, you wanna live forever?" Thats 6 seconds.
And a 10 minute song, well Bohemian Rhapsody is near 6 minutes and most songs arent as good as bohemian rhapsody. People are gonna wanna start hitting "skip". Or get bored and check out.
Make it a minute, i can hand them out as soon as i meet up with the party, and the buffs last at least all day so i dont have to do it just before we rolll initiative.
The 2014 Inspiring Leader doesn't say you give a 10-minute speech, it says "You can spend 10 minutes inspiring your companions, shoring up their resolve to fight", without any specifics. This could be going around your party giving each party member a personal little pep talk for 2 minutes. This could be a 3 minute speech that you spend 5 minutes coming up with. It could be you going up to each party member and spending a minute saying "Hey, I'm gonna say something, grab your sword/wand/mace/rod/crossbow and meet me at the bluff in 2 minutes" and then giving a rousing performance. You're misreading and overthinking a single sentence.
Also that seems academic given that you're quoting the 2024 version initially which doesn't have that 10-minute qualifier.
As for when you can give that speech, you seem to be ignoring the fact it can be given on a short or long rest, not just a long rest. A short rest is not "an hour long nap", it's just an hour spent preparing, readying, and gearing up. To loop back to your LotR reference (that I finally understand), Theodin would've spent that hour beforehand pacing his chambers, contemplating the coming battle, mustering the words to rouse his men. That is the short rest.
You seem to be misunderstanding what some of the abstractions of the game actually represent.
Is the issue between "as" and "when?" I don't see how these words have any meaningful difference in this context. Is your day planned to the second to the point where the 30 seconds after a rest really matter?
I am confused how anyone has an interpretation it must happen immediately/soon after a rest.
After a rest you can recite a song/speech (implied just once) and then after the next rest you can do it again. Why/where is the implied source it has to be right after?
Because the abilities say "When you finish" and "As you finish", not "After you have finished" or it being a "You regain the use of this ability...."
The "window" for using these abilities is explicitly at the conclusion of a short or long rest. Abilities that you can use a finite number of times at any time and then regain the use of on completing a rest are worded differently. There's no "implied source", it's literally the wording of the ability.
"Is the issue between "as" and "when?" I don't see how these words have any meaningful difference in this context."
No, the issue is "as you finish" and "when you finish" both mean at that moment in time at the end of your long rest.
"After a long rest" would mean anytime from when you finish your long rest.
If you long rest from midnight to 8am, you do the rousing speech or the musical interlude at 8am. Whoever is within earshot of you exactly at the end of your long rest, those are the only people you can affect with these features.
I say thats insanely silly, but it is what the rules actually say. And thats why im suggesting the rules need updating to just make it take one minute anytime you want to do it, and can be done once per long rest.
"Is the issue between "as" and "when?" I don't see how these words have any meaningful difference in this context."
No, the issue is "as you finish" and "when you finish" both mean at that moment in time at the end of your long rest.
"After a long rest" would mean anytime from when you finish your long rest.
If you long rest from midnight to 8am, you do the rousing speech or the musical interlude at 8am. Whoever is within earshot of you exactly at the end of your long rest, those are the only people you can affect with these features.
I say thats insanely silly, but it is what the rules actually say. And thats why im suggesting the rules need updating to just make it take one minute anytime you want to do it, and can be done once per long rest.
Dont tie it to the end of a rest
It's a SHORT or long rest, not just a long rest. If you want to do it any other time than when your party finishes a long rest, take a short rest
" It's a SHORT or long rest, not just a long rest. If you want to do it any other time than when your party finishes a long rest, take a short rest"
I understamd the rules. I just think any rule that everyone homebrews a workaround is a badly written rule.
As for your suggested workaround, i believe a short rest is incompatible with riding a horse, which is what Theoden did for an hour or more before his speech. The only way theoden could do it is homebrewing a short rest to include and allow horseback riding.
Here's an easier fix. Admit the Inspiring Leader rule as written is silly and fix the rule. We are talking about a dozen temp hit points by level 8. Its not OP to allow it untethered to a rest. Its fine. No campaign will break as a result. Really. It would be OK.
So no home-brewing required. The rule isn't silly and doesn't need a "fix" because everything you say isn't possible actually is if you properly read the rules.
"A Short Rest is a 1-hour period of downtime, during which a creature does nothing more strenuous than reading, talking, eating, or standing watch"
"A short rest is stopped by: Rolling Initiative Casting a spell other than a cantrip Taking any damage"
Ok, if you want to take the strict rules lawyer approach to the definition of a short rest, then sprintng for an hour isnt listed as interupting a short rest and therefore is fine? Sorry. No.
Standing watch involves a whole lot of standing or sitting by a campfire and not much else. Running and riding a galloping horse for an hour are not ecplicitly in the rules for a short rest, but both are a lot of work. I assume youve never ridden a horse, but if you dont believe me, google results for "how strenuous is it to ride a galloping horse for an hour" will confirm, saying "Riding a galloping horse for an hour is extremely strenuous, comparable to intense jogging", not to mention galloping for an hour is going to be prett6 rough on the horse.
So if you want to homebrew that riding an entire cavalry out to the field of battle at speed for an hour qualifies them for a short rest, thats your choice as dm. But if you insist on rules lawyering short rest to mean anything not listed as "stopping" a short rest must instead *allow* a short rest, then, you've made your case and we can agree to disagree with that interpretatiion.
You're the one arguing to a literalistic and rigid interpretation of the rules. I'm just pointing out that under the framework, you can still achieve what you claim isn't possible. You're trying to simultaneously take a rigid and flexible rules approach in order to prop up this idea of a non existent problem. It's daft
"You're trying to simultaneously take a rigid and flexible"
Nope.
Short rest requires an hour of activity that is less than "strenuous", and the rules gives SOME examples of what is NOT strenuous(reading, talking, eating) and SOME examples of what IS strenuous.(initiative, spellcasting, damage).
You broke the definition of short rest by trying to interpret the list as exhaustive: you argue if it isnt one of these three things: initiative, spellcasting, or damage, then it is allowed in a short rest. Thats applying a strictness that isnt in the rules for short rest.
The party helps a farmer build a barn. Barn building isnt initiative, spellcasting, or damage, sure, but it sure isnt a short rest either. Thats because the rules for short rest arent exhaustive.
The feats for inspiring leader and musician very explicitely specifies "when you finish a rest". There is no wiggle room there. There is only specific times you can apply the feat. It is a complete anf exhaustive definition.
So if a rule is explicit and exhaustive like "when you finish a long rest", then i read it as explict and exhaustive. When the rule is subjective like "dont do anything strenuous" followed by some examples of what is and is not strenuous, i apply the rule with the subjective interpretation it was written for.
But you attempting to interpret the definition of short rest to be a complete and exhaustive list, and anything not specifically prohiibited must therefore be allowed, breaks short rest into something completely meaningless.
That is 100% an exhaustive list, if something happens that isn't one of those three things it doesn't interrupt a Short Rest. I'm not taking any liberties or interpreting anything, I'm reading what the rules say. If you want to operate under the proviso of Inspiring Leader and Musician having zero flexibility as to when their benefits are applied by RAW, then you must apply the same lack of flexibility as to what interrupts a short rest. That's what I mean when I say you're trying to be both rigid (about Inspiring Leader and Musician) and flexible (about interrupting short rests) with the rules at the same time. Pick one, either
a) Rigid—Inspiring Leader and Musician apply their benefits exactly at the end of a short rest, but you can do things during a short rest such as galloping on a horse or putting up a barn or whatever as long as it's not rolling initiative, casting a spell other than a cantrip, or taking any damage
or
b) Flexible—Inspiring Leader and Musician apply their benefits around the time you finish a short rest with some wiggle room for reasonable narrative interpretation based on the description, but a short rest can also be interrupted by anything that beyond the list of interruptions that can be reasonable interpreted as "more strenuous than reading, talking, eating, or standing watch"
Pick one, either way you're still able to do what your original post complains you can't do.
" If you want to operate under the proviso of Inspiring Leader and Musician having zero flexibility as to when their benefits are applied by RAW, then you must apply the same lack of flexibility as to what interrupts a short rest."
Nope. Leader/Musician feat gives exactly one explicit point in time it can be applied.
Short rest says you cant do anything "strenuous" and thats quite subjective and needs interpretation what us and is not "strenuous". It provides examples, but those examples cannot be considered exhaustive.
"Bolstering Performance. When you finish a Short or Long Rest, you can give an inspiring performance:"
"Encouraging Song. As you finish a Short or Long Rest, you can play a song"
Théoden: "Forth and fear no darkness! Ride now, ride now, ride! Ride for ruin and the world's ending!"
But the only way those words do anything in game is if Théoden just finished an hour long nap right before saying that???
Come on, folks. Just make it once per long rest. This is hobbling the horses for absolutely no reason.
What are you talking about? Both these ability clearly state they trigger when/as (functionality synonymous) you finish either type of rest
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I'm not sure what you're talking about...the frustration was that according to the wording, you can't give a rousing speech just before entering battle like Theoden did unless the timing just happens to work perfectly, with you waking up and entering battle a minute later. It's an issue with the thematic nature of the feats due to their wording, not unclear phrasing.
Anyway, back to the original post, I think the idea is that you're giving a pep talk for the day, rather than a battle rousing speech. It used to be whenever you had ten minutes, so I think maybe it's to avoid the arguments of "oh, but if I'd have realised we were about to have a fight, I'd have used my fear" kind of deal. It's more complex than that, but that's what the disputes or arguments would boil down to. By attaching it to a short or long rest, they don't have the excuse.
I'd be fine as a DM with you doing it any time and just limiting it to once per rest. Depending on whether it's a one-shot or story campaign, I might not let you do it retroactively - you run the risk that you get ambushed or only warned shortly before combat or you forget, and lose the benefit. One-shots I'm less concerned about the narrative integrity of the mechanics and would probably just let you retcon it.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
If its a hex crawl campaign, i will be long resting with my party, so not a problem.
If i am normally long resting in my house or bastion or whstever, im going to wake up alone and cant use this feature.
The thing is heroic insparation dont expire until used and temp hp last until next long rest, so i could wake up in my house alone, ride into town to meet up with the rest of the party at the local Donut Shop, and hand out either of thesr features then, and they last all day.
Its not a thing that needs be handed out after we roll initiative. So there doesnt need to be arguments aboit whether you had 10 minutes to give a speech or song.
Besides a 10 minutr speech is going to start gett9ng boring. The St. Crispin's Day speech from shakespear's Henry V takes a minute and a half, and even then folks only remember "we happy few" and "these wounds i had on st crispens day". During WW1, medal of honor recipient Dan Daly rallied a large group of marines to charge with some variation of "come on you lunks, you wanna live forever?" Thats 6 seconds.
And a 10 minute song, well Bohemian Rhapsody is near 6 minutes and most songs arent as good as bohemian rhapsody. People are gonna wanna start hitting "skip". Or get bored and check out.
Make it a minute, i can hand them out as soon as i meet up with the party, and the buffs last at least all day so i dont have to do it just before we rolll initiative.
The 2014 Inspiring Leader doesn't say you give a 10-minute speech, it says "You can spend 10 minutes inspiring your companions, shoring up their resolve to fight", without any specifics. This could be going around your party giving each party member a personal little pep talk for 2 minutes. This could be a 3 minute speech that you spend 5 minutes coming up with. It could be you going up to each party member and spending a minute saying "Hey, I'm gonna say something, grab your sword/wand/mace/rod/crossbow and meet me at the bluff in 2 minutes" and then giving a rousing performance. You're misreading and overthinking a single sentence.
Also that seems academic given that you're quoting the 2024 version initially which doesn't have that 10-minute qualifier.
As for when you can give that speech, you seem to be ignoring the fact it can be given on a short or long rest, not just a long rest. A short rest is not "an hour long nap", it's just an hour spent preparing, readying, and gearing up. To loop back to your LotR reference (that I finally understand), Theodin would've spent that hour beforehand pacing his chambers, contemplating the coming battle, mustering the words to rouse his men. That is the short rest.
You seem to be misunderstanding what some of the abstractions of the game actually represent.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Is the issue between "as" and "when?" I don't see how these words have any meaningful difference in this context. Is your day planned to the second to the point where the 30 seconds after a rest really matter?
I am confused how anyone has an interpretation it must happen immediately/soon after a rest.
After a rest you can recite a song/speech (implied just once) and then after the next rest you can do it again. Why/where is the implied source it has to be right after?
Because the abilities say "When you finish" and "As you finish", not "After you have finished" or it being a "You regain the use of this ability...."
The "window" for using these abilities is explicitly at the conclusion of a short or long rest. Abilities that you can use a finite number of times at any time and then regain the use of on completing a rest are worded differently. There's no "implied source", it's literally the wording of the ability.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
"Is the issue between "as" and "when?" I don't see how these words have any meaningful difference in this context."
No, the issue is "as you finish" and "when you finish" both mean at that moment in time at the end of your long rest.
"After a long rest" would mean anytime from when you finish your long rest.
If you long rest from midnight to 8am, you do the rousing speech or the musical interlude at 8am. Whoever is within earshot of you exactly at the end of your long rest, those are the only people you can affect with these features.
I say thats insanely silly, but it is what the rules actually say. And thats why im suggesting the rules need updating to just make it take one minute anytime you want to do it, and can be done once per long rest.
Dont tie it to the end of a rest
It's a SHORT or long rest, not just a long rest. If you want to do it any other time than when your party finishes a long rest, take a short rest
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
" It's a SHORT or long rest, not just a long rest. If you want to do it any other time than when your party finishes a long rest, take a short rest"
I understamd the rules. I just think any rule that everyone homebrews a workaround is a badly written rule.
As for your suggested workaround, i believe a short rest is incompatible with riding a horse, which is what Theoden did for an hour or more before his speech. The only way theoden could do it is homebrewing a short rest to include and allow horseback riding.
Here's an easier fix. Admit the Inspiring Leader rule as written is silly and fix the rule. We are talking about a dozen temp hit points by level 8. Its not OP to allow it untethered to a rest. Its fine. No campaign will break as a result. Really. It would be OK.
"everyone gingerbread a workaround"
I've literally never heard of anyone doing that until now.
Also I'm not suggesting a workaround, I'm suggesting how it, or any other short/long rest ability is supposed to be used.
I'm not sure why you're fixated on reproducing that exact LotR scene, but even so, no, riding a horse would not interrupt it.
"Interrupting the Rest. A Short Rest is stopped by the following interruptions:
So no home-brewing required. The rule isn't silly and doesn't need a "fix" because everything you say isn't possible actually is if you properly read the rules.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
"A Short Rest is a 1-hour period of downtime, during which a creature does nothing more strenuous than reading, talking, eating, or standing watch"
"A short rest is stopped by: Rolling Initiative
Casting a spell other than a cantrip
Taking any damage"
Ok, if you want to take the strict rules lawyer approach to the definition of a short rest, then sprintng for an hour isnt listed as interupting a short rest and therefore is fine? Sorry. No.
Standing watch involves a whole lot of standing or sitting by a campfire and not much else. Running and riding a galloping horse for an hour are not ecplicitly in the rules for a short rest, but both are a lot of work. I assume youve never ridden a horse, but if you dont believe me, google results for "how strenuous is it to ride a galloping horse for an hour" will confirm, saying "Riding a galloping horse for an hour is extremely strenuous, comparable to intense jogging", not to mention galloping for an hour is going to be prett6 rough on the horse.
So if you want to homebrew that riding an entire cavalry out to the field of battle at speed for an hour qualifies them for a short rest, thats your choice as dm. But if you insist on rules lawyering short rest to mean anything not listed as "stopping" a short rest must instead *allow* a short rest, then, you've made your case and we can agree to disagree with that interpretatiion.
You're the one arguing to a literalistic and rigid interpretation of the rules. I'm just pointing out that under the framework, you can still achieve what you claim isn't possible. You're trying to simultaneously take a rigid and flexible rules approach in order to prop up this idea of a non existent problem. It's daft
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
"You're trying to simultaneously take a rigid and flexible"
Nope.
Short rest requires an hour of activity that is less than "strenuous", and the rules gives SOME examples of what is NOT strenuous(reading, talking, eating) and SOME examples of what IS strenuous.(initiative, spellcasting, damage).
You broke the definition of short rest by trying to interpret the list as exhaustive: you argue if it isnt one of these three things: initiative, spellcasting, or damage, then it is allowed in a short rest. Thats applying a strictness that isnt in the rules for short rest.
The party helps a farmer build a barn. Barn building isnt initiative, spellcasting, or damage, sure, but it sure isnt a short rest either. Thats because the rules for short rest arent exhaustive.
The feats for inspiring leader and musician very explicitely specifies "when you finish a rest". There is no wiggle room there. There is only specific times you can apply the feat. It is a complete anf exhaustive definition.
So if a rule is explicit and exhaustive like "when you finish a long rest", then i read it as explict and exhaustive. When the rule is subjective like "dont do anything strenuous" followed by some examples of what is and is not strenuous, i apply the rule with the subjective interpretation it was written for.
But you attempting to interpret the definition of short rest to be a complete and exhaustive list, and anything not specifically prohiibited must therefore be allowed, breaks short rest into something completely meaningless.
The rules for Short Rests is very explicit as to what interrupts a short rest and therefore negates the benefit:
That is 100% an exhaustive list, if something happens that isn't one of those three things it doesn't interrupt a Short Rest. I'm not taking any liberties or interpreting anything, I'm reading what the rules say. If you want to operate under the proviso of Inspiring Leader and Musician having zero flexibility as to when their benefits are applied by RAW, then you must apply the same lack of flexibility as to what interrupts a short rest. That's what I mean when I say you're trying to be both rigid (about Inspiring Leader and Musician) and flexible (about interrupting short rests) with the rules at the same time. Pick one, either
a) Rigid—Inspiring Leader and Musician apply their benefits exactly at the end of a short rest, but you can do things during a short rest such as galloping on a horse or putting up a barn or whatever as long as it's not rolling initiative, casting a spell other than a cantrip, or taking any damage
or
b) Flexible—Inspiring Leader and Musician apply their benefits around the time you finish a short rest with some wiggle room for reasonable narrative interpretation based on the description, but a short rest can also be interrupted by anything that beyond the list of interruptions that can be reasonable interpreted as "more strenuous than reading, talking, eating, or standing watch"
Pick one, either way you're still able to do what your original post complains you can't do.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
" If you want to operate under the proviso of Inspiring Leader and Musician having zero flexibility as to when their benefits are applied by RAW, then you must apply the same lack of flexibility as to what interrupts a short rest."
Nope. Leader/Musician feat gives exactly one explicit point in time it can be applied.
Short rest says you cant do anything "strenuous" and thats quite subjective and needs interpretation what us and is not "strenuous". It provides examples, but those examples cannot be considered exhaustive.
This whole argument relies on strict realism.
Need I remind OP that DND is NOT a realism simulator to the degree they are implying.
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