That's were you are more likely to have a roll for initiative. Or have a pre-rolled initiative order and go with that.
You could have a simple dex comparison against the two players, see who can react first, or give the party an opportunity to stop them.
Remember that the turns are all happening within a 6 second space of simultaneous time, so you can allow players to jump in, use a passive perception check against the other players actions. Or just *ahem* roll with it and see where it goes. Just be sure there are consequences afterwards for their actions. Have them arrested :)
You can also assist in sparking the creativity by having the NPCs or monsters do something creative with or without the surrounding terrain. Sometimes the players are so attached to the rules and their player character sheets that they forget that they can think outside of the box. But believe me, the first time an NPC fires magic at a structure and causes it to collapse on them, they'll immediately start thinking of ways to use the terrain as well.
And as the others have stated above, encourage the players to describe their actions. Tell them to pretend they're watching a movie and on their turn it hits the John Woo/Michael Bay/whatever other movie slo-mo battle scene and to describe that. I remember the first time my Artificer showed up in the game I described it as a figure sprinting out from the shadows, dropping into a slide on its knees as it pulls out two rod-like implements from behind its buff coat. Throwing up dust and debris, mid-slide, a swirling flash of iridescent Aether appears as it brings together the two rods. As the dust settles, you find the figure crouched and braced as a crossbow man, but aiming, instead, a strange rod of wood and etched metal.
Heh, I love carrying around my Thunder Cannon as two broken halves that I mend together before battle 😏
Plus, if you get interrupted before you can piece them together.. 2x improvised bludgeoning weapons thank you very much..
Just thought of another way to get them to 'think' more about what they're doing.. Take away their toys. They wake up in a strange place, with no armor, weapons, or memory of how they got here - surprise! there's something bearing down on you.
While I agree with most of the people on this post about ways to improve the combat, the lack of options in combat is the biggest regression from 4e. 4e has it's own list of problems, but the thing I liked best about it was the tactical combat. It gave everyone a variety of options (too many at high levels) besides just attacking. With combat largely required to be on a grid and movement and positioning being a major factor in success, it forced more tactical decision making and encouraged groups to move enemies into position for big strikes from allies. That said, any game can be boring if your party isn't trying to make the best use of their abilities and flesh out the details of their heroic actions.
I would honestly watch liveplays of the relatively famous groups, like Critical Roll and so on. They are good at making combat interesting and fun, and even imaginative (in the sense that they are descriptive. That's the best advice I could give.
Here is what I think about the combat. It is better then 4th edition. But it isn't the best. I enjoy the combat but when compared to my favorite combat system it doesn't hold up. The Dragon Age Table Top combat system is my favorite. It is so much fun and I just love it. Stunts is what makes Dragon Age Table Top combat so much fun. Stunts are pretty much their form of crits. Except instead of just doing extra damage you get to choose what you do with your stunt. Like you roll an extra die, or you do piercing damage, etc.
Where I disagree with Rexx is on the supposed generational separation - being from the "video game generation" is not mutually exclusive with being an avid reader, and neither activity is actually required in order for someone to have imagination and ability to express imagined images, though both help (one by showing you the words to use - the other by showing the motions visually and letting you use your own vocabulary to describe them).
Not to mention the fact that GOOD video games tend to have amazing stories. I dare anyone to play any of the earlier Final Fantasy games, the Mass Effect series, etc... and tell me they aren't as narratively driven (if not more than) as some of the greats out there (hell I'll take Cecil, Shepard, and Revan over too many pages of Tom Bombadil any day of the week).
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Where I disagree with Rexx is on the supposed generational separation - being from the "video game generation" is not mutually exclusive with being an avid reader, and neither activity is actually required in order for someone to have imagination and ability to express imagined images, though both help (one by showing you the words to use - the other by showing the motions visually and letting you use your own vocabulary to describe them).
Not to mention the fact that GOOD video games tend to have amazing stories. I dare anyone to play any of the earlier Final Fantasy games, the Mass Effect series, etc... and tell me they aren't as narratively driven (if not more than) as some of the greats out there (hell I'll take Cecil, Shepard, and Revan over too many pages of Tom Bombadil any day of the week).
Yes, only I would add there is plenty of nostalgia blindness to go around. Those video games and books were "good for their time". Go back and play FF4 and see how many times there was a martyr scene. Unless sacrifice was the central theme (it wasn't), that is bad writing. As a side note, 4 is still my top 3 favorite in Final Fantasy and LotR in my top 5 series.
The same thing applies to any generation. If you grew up with Tolkien you have similar nostalgia blindness. The roots are already in. Your DC is already failed. Enjoy it for what it is, we are polymorphed into goats now. :)
Try stunts like from Exalted. If someone does something you think is cool, give them a d4 (doesn't stack with bless) for their ability check, attack roll, or saving throw on the relevant action for the stunt. But don't let it become a "I can do impossible things if I roll a d20". I hate that.
Irongron beat me to it. While some combats are okay just being combats, you should have the conflict serve the larger story. Give the PCs (and NPCs) an objective throughout the scene that they are trying to accomplish. A fun example from movies, is some type of unstable or rolling McGuffin. Each side is trying to get possession of the thing that invariably gets bounced, tossed, rolled around the battlefield, until someone finally secures it and runs away to the next scene. Another is the grand diversion wherein a combat is used to distract from the larger story goal. this gives free license to send the whole horde of guards. Some of which may hang back and start placing bets on your survival.
Finally, don't be afraid to surrender a scene if the outcome us certain and it's just about whittling hit points. Surrender and fleeing are preferable to death for most creatures.
Something I thought of, but have not put to test yet. Technically each round of battle happens at the same time. After all, everyone isn't just standing around waiting til they get hit or its their turn. I think what's lacking is the "action" part of it. In books, video games, movies, the action is continuous.
My idea is this (I look forward to feedback and suggestions): Have everyone roll for their actions, attacks, spells, etc., they can also move, and do everything they normally would. After everyone has taking their turn, the DM then describes what happened. Who got hit ( those who succeeded can roll for damage), spell effects, etc. Even if someone suffers enough damage to be lethal, who's to say they weren't able to get a last hit, spell, etc. off as they died. Give it a more action driven feel to it. I know there's still kinks to work out, and maybe it will make combat longer....but who says it should be rushed anyways?
I don't know just something I've been brainstorming on.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If you wanna hear the DM laugh, tell him your plans"
AD&D 2e used a different initiative system that imposed some simultaneous action. A version for 5e was proposed as the “Greyhawk” variant. Under this rule, everyone narrates what they want to do, initiative is rolled and then actions are taken. It makes it a bit more dynamic as poor inititiave rolls can result in a loss of action.
One of my favorite variants from a different game broke the round doe into 4 phases. People took action in one or more of these phases without regard to order. Results within the phase werent applied until the end of the phase. So it was possible to have a double KO in a fight.
Watch some of the livestream or Youtube stuff from Critical Role and see how actors do it. Now THAT is a creative bunch! I have adopted Matt Mercer's idea of allowing the character that scores the killing blow on a big enemy to explain how it looks when the boss dies. Helps people visualize. As a DM, work out in advance some rules for odd situations like the Warlock that blasts the enemy back into the rack of weapons (1d6 extra damage...killed an enemy last night) or trying to collapse the tunnel on them (roll 1d6 and the target gets that many d6 of falling rock damage...but if you roll a 1 then YOU take the damage instead as the roof hits YOU!).
Start this off yourself by describing the bad guys doing it. Making attacks with fancy flourishes or casting spells with more panache.
You can’t do much about how the players run their characters but you can certainly improve the way you run your monsters. Don’t let your fight bog down to a static exchange of blows, keep your creatures moving taking advantage of the environment. Don’t forget your dragon can take the Disengage Action or Dodge Action to reposition itself and take advantage of cover. Also don’t be afraid to take a few opportunity attacks to keep things dynamic.
Most boring fights are boring because both sides are standing still and just pounding on each other in a landscape devoid of any interesting obstacles. Don’t be that DM. I try to avoid a setting up a fight where it is just the players and one big creature (bag of HP). These are the fights that most often devolve into a static slog to get the enemy to zero HP first. Once this happens the players will realise that the best use of their turn is to do as much damage as possible and any other use of their action will be suboptimal. As a DM you don’t need to worry about that because your creatures are disposable anyway.
In your example with the Dragon if the encounter took place on a wooden bridge spanning a deep chasm. The roar of a nearby waterfall drows out most sounds and an early morning mist rolling in from the mountains obscures the approach of a Ancient Red Dragon. The dragon decends on the party attacking with its fiery breath and it and the party spend a few rounds locked in melee on the burning bridge. A few Kobold turn up and start peppering the party with slingshot (unlikely to do much damage but annoying nonetheless). Then the dragon disengages and disappears into the mist.
Will the bridge collapse, do the party engage or ignore the kobolds, are they taking fire damage, where is the dragon and has it fled or is it at this very moment rising behind the party from under the bridge. A lot more going on here than facing a dragon on flat terrain.
I am fortunate to have a group of players and a DM who are highly verbal and visual people. We describe everything. It definitely adds a deeper narrative layer to the Table, and one that we all appreciate. We feed off of each other's characterizations and congratulate each other when an RP goes well. Heck, we'll even tag team against the DM to recommend Inspiration for a job well done. He's always amenable to the cause.
We interpret dice rolls accordingly. Now, having said that, 5E mechanics are slightly different from earlier editions. The range of failure to success is about degree, so whenever a Player rolls a success for his/her character, a quick consult with the DM OOC is usually opened. Discussion is quick. We like to move our game quickly and smoothly; we play about once a month.
The DM will gently correct any interpretation to meet what he thinks is best to describe the degree of success or failure. We roll with it and let the narrative illustrate the combat round. It took us a few sessions to learn each other's RP and narrative defaults, which was great since those first few games nights were more about developing character than earning XP.
We RP in character and have a blast while doing it. Never miss an opportunity to have fun. Dice are so impersonal, which is the point. Fate has its own hour of choosing and we are but humble players in the campaign for destiny.
That's were you are more likely to have a roll for initiative. Or have a pre-rolled initiative order and go with that.
You could have a simple dex comparison against the two players, see who can react first, or give the party an opportunity to stop them.
Remember that the turns are all happening within a 6 second space of simultaneous time, so you can allow players to jump in, use a passive perception check against the other players actions. Or just *ahem* roll with it and see where it goes. Just be sure there are consequences afterwards for their actions. Have them arrested :)
- Stu
#6321 on Discord.
You can also assist in sparking the creativity by having the NPCs or monsters do something creative with or without the surrounding terrain. Sometimes the players are so attached to the rules and their player character sheets that they forget that they can think outside of the box. But believe me, the first time an NPC fires magic at a structure and causes it to collapse on them, they'll immediately start thinking of ways to use the terrain as well.
And as the others have stated above, encourage the players to describe their actions. Tell them to pretend they're watching a movie and on their turn it hits the John Woo/Michael Bay/whatever other movie slo-mo battle scene and to describe that. I remember the first time my Artificer showed up in the game I described it as a figure sprinting out from the shadows, dropping into a slide on its knees as it pulls out two rod-like implements from behind its buff coat. Throwing up dust and debris, mid-slide, a swirling flash of iridescent Aether appears as it brings together the two rods. As the dust settles, you find the figure crouched and braced as a crossbow man, but aiming, instead, a strange rod of wood and etched metal.
Heh, I love carrying around my Thunder Cannon as two broken halves that I mend together before battle 😏
Plus, if you get interrupted before you can piece them together.. 2x improvised bludgeoning weapons thank you very much..
Just thought of another way to get them to 'think' more about what they're doing.. Take away their toys. They wake up in a strange place, with no armor, weapons, or memory of how they got here - surprise! there's something bearing down on you.
- Stu
#6321 on Discord.
While I agree with most of the people on this post about ways to improve the combat, the lack of options in combat is the biggest regression from 4e. 4e has it's own list of problems, but the thing I liked best about it was the tactical combat. It gave everyone a variety of options (too many at high levels) besides just attacking. With combat largely required to be on a grid and movement and positioning being a major factor in success, it forced more tactical decision making and encouraged groups to move enemies into position for big strikes from allies. That said, any game can be boring if your party isn't trying to make the best use of their abilities and flesh out the details of their heroic actions.
I would honestly watch liveplays of the relatively famous groups, like Critical Roll and so on. They are good at making combat interesting and fun, and even imaginative (in the sense that they are descriptive. That's the best advice I could give.
Here is what I think about the combat. It is better then 4th edition. But it isn't the best. I enjoy the combat but when compared to my favorite combat system it doesn't hold up. The Dragon Age Table Top combat system is my favorite. It is so much fun and I just love it. Stunts is what makes Dragon Age Table Top combat so much fun. Stunts are pretty much their form of crits. Except instead of just doing extra damage you get to choose what you do with your stunt. Like you roll an extra die, or you do piercing damage, etc.
~I am a Halfling Warrior at Heart~
~Tempus Fugit~
I love the sound of stunts, I think I'm going to try and adapt that!
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Try stunts like from Exalted. If someone does something you think is cool, give them a d4 (doesn't stack with bless) for their ability check, attack roll, or saving throw on the relevant action for the stunt. But don't let it become a "I can do impossible things if I roll a d20". I hate that.
In my opinion, each turn has only so many actions, does anyone have a way for turns to go more smoothly and interact with things better each turn?
Irongron beat me to it. While some combats are okay just being combats, you should have the conflict serve the larger story. Give the PCs (and NPCs) an objective throughout the scene that they are trying to accomplish. A fun example from movies, is some type of unstable or rolling McGuffin. Each side is trying to get possession of the thing that invariably gets bounced, tossed, rolled around the battlefield, until someone finally secures it and runs away to the next scene. Another is the grand diversion wherein a combat is used to distract from the larger story goal. this gives free license to send the whole horde of guards. Some of which may hang back and start placing bets on your survival.
Finally, don't be afraid to surrender a scene if the outcome us certain and it's just about whittling hit points. Surrender and fleeing are preferable to death for most creatures.
Something I thought of, but have not put to test yet. Technically each round of battle happens at the same time. After all, everyone isn't just standing around waiting til they get hit or its their turn. I think what's lacking is the "action" part of it. In books, video games, movies, the action is continuous.
My idea is this (I look forward to feedback and suggestions): Have everyone roll for their actions, attacks, spells, etc., they can also move, and do everything they normally would. After everyone has taking their turn, the DM then describes what happened. Who got hit ( those who succeeded can roll for damage), spell effects, etc. Even if someone suffers enough damage to be lethal, who's to say they weren't able to get a last hit, spell, etc. off as they died. Give it a more action driven feel to it. I know there's still kinks to work out, and maybe it will make combat longer....but who says it should be rushed anyways?
I don't know just something I've been brainstorming on.
"If you wanna hear the DM laugh, tell him your plans"
AD&D 2e used a different initiative system that imposed some simultaneous action. A version for 5e was proposed as the “Greyhawk” variant. Under this rule, everyone narrates what they want to do, initiative is rolled and then actions are taken. It makes it a bit more dynamic as poor inititiave rolls can result in a loss of action.
One of my favorite variants from a different game broke the round doe into 4 phases. People took action in one or more of these phases without regard to order. Results within the phase werent applied until the end of the phase. So it was possible to have a double KO in a fight.
Watch some of the livestream or Youtube stuff from Critical Role and see how actors do it. Now THAT is a creative bunch! I have adopted Matt Mercer's idea of allowing the character that scores the killing blow on a big enemy to explain how it looks when the boss dies. Helps people visualize. As a DM, work out in advance some rules for odd situations like the Warlock that blasts the enemy back into the rack of weapons (1d6 extra damage...killed an enemy last night) or trying to collapse the tunnel on them (roll 1d6 and the target gets that many d6 of falling rock damage...but if you roll a 1 then YOU take the damage instead as the roof hits YOU!).
Start this off yourself by describing the bad guys doing it. Making attacks with fancy flourishes or casting spells with more panache.
You can’t do much about how the players run their characters but you can certainly improve the way you run your monsters. Don’t let your fight bog down to a static exchange of blows, keep your creatures moving taking advantage of the environment. Don’t forget your dragon can take the Disengage Action or Dodge Action to reposition itself and take advantage of cover. Also don’t be afraid to take a few opportunity attacks to keep things dynamic.
Most boring fights are boring because both sides are standing still and just pounding on each other in a landscape devoid of any interesting obstacles. Don’t be that DM. I try to avoid a setting up a fight where it is just the players and one big creature (bag of HP). These are the fights that most often devolve into a static slog to get the enemy to zero HP first. Once this happens the players will realise that the best use of their turn is to do as much damage as possible and any other use of their action will be suboptimal. As a DM you don’t need to worry about that because your creatures are disposable anyway.
In your example with the Dragon if the encounter took place on a wooden bridge spanning a deep chasm. The roar of a nearby waterfall drows out most sounds and an early morning mist rolling in from the mountains obscures the approach of a Ancient Red Dragon. The dragon decends on the party attacking with its fiery breath and it and the party spend a few rounds locked in melee on the burning bridge. A few Kobold turn up and start peppering the party with slingshot (unlikely to do much damage but annoying nonetheless). Then the dragon disengages and disappears into the mist.
Will the bridge collapse, do the party engage or ignore the kobolds, are they taking fire damage, where is the dragon and has it fled or is it at this very moment rising behind the party from under the bridge. A lot more going on here than facing a dragon on flat terrain.
I am fortunate to have a group of players and a DM who are highly verbal and visual people. We describe everything. It definitely adds a deeper narrative layer to the Table, and one that we all appreciate. We feed off of each other's characterizations and congratulate each other when an RP goes well. Heck, we'll even tag team against the DM to recommend Inspiration for a job well done. He's always amenable to the cause.
We interpret dice rolls accordingly. Now, having said that, 5E mechanics are slightly different from earlier editions. The range of failure to success is about degree, so whenever a Player rolls a success for his/her character, a quick consult with the DM OOC is usually opened. Discussion is quick. We like to move our game quickly and smoothly; we play about once a month.
The DM will gently correct any interpretation to meet what he thinks is best to describe the degree of success or failure. We roll with it and let the narrative illustrate the combat round. It took us a few sessions to learn each other's RP and narrative defaults, which was great since those first few games nights were more about developing character than earning XP.
We RP in character and have a blast while doing it. Never miss an opportunity to have fun. Dice are so impersonal, which is the point. Fate has its own hour of choosing and we are but humble players in the campaign for destiny.