My problem is that a Tieflings tail doesn't serve any purpose, and at that point, why even bother having a tail? It feels like there's no reason for them to have a tail if their tails are useless.
They might as well be a human with fire resistance, which you could probably yet on a variant human via a feat anyway. So at that point, why not just take a variant human, give them fire resistance via a feat and roleplay them as having cursed blood or something due to their ancestor's interactions with devils.
Or V.Human with fire resistance, who is a warlock of the fiend if you wanted specific devil related powers.
What is a USP of a Tiefling at that point?
I don't get this. Why should tieflings have horns if they are useless? Or unusual colored skin? Or elves have pointy ears? Or dwarves have beards? Or minotaurs have bull faces? Orc tusks? Leonin's mane? Aarokocra's beak? Heck, everything about a tabaxi's appearance??? And so on.
The majority of what makes each race unique is their appearance, and nearly all of that doesn't have some specific game purpose.
My problem is that a Tieflings tail doesn't serve any purpose, and at that point, why even bother having a tail? It feels like there's no reason for them to have a tail if their tails are useless.
My problem is that a Tieflings tail doesn't serve any purpose, and at that point, why even bother having a tail? It feels like there's no reason for them to have a tail if their tails are useless.
They might as well be a human with fire resistance, which you could probably yet on a variant human via a feat anyway. So at that point, why not just take a variant human, give them fire resistance via a feat and roleplay them as having cursed blood or something due to their ancestor's interactions with devils.
Or V.Human with fire resistance, who is a warlock of the fiend if you wanted specific devil related powers.
What is a USP of a Tiefling at that point?
By all definitions of prehensile, cats, dogs, rabbits, and cows do not have them. However, the tails may not have a use that comes up in game, they certainly add favor if you consider emotional states; they move and twitch for example; and you can certainly narrate your character that way. Another way, is explaining certain rolls, like someone else stepping on it when you roll a 1 in combat.
When I played a lizard folk monk, my tail was a weapon. I swung with my sword twice (kensai), and then with flurry, would round house kick, follow by a slap of the tail. All because all the parts of the body of a monk is considered valid for unarmed strike. Otherwise, the tail can't do anyting game wise.
Not everything needs to have the utility of extra arms of a thri-kreen or a Loxodon's trunk, to be interesting to play.
by experience, be aware that giving more limbs to a player will make them immediately try to abuse it by adding more weapons or more shields. shuields have a rule that says, you can only gain benefits from 1 only.
but weapons... its gonna be DM dependant. like they will probably try to grapple with a third limb and then just whack senseless the person. or they will try to have another free attack with it by grasping say a dagger. or god forbid, a longsword.
if you add more limbs, just be aware of all the shenanigans the players will think of doing to abuse it. givingextra limbs, is the equivalent of giving flight at level 1. aarakocras have proven to be very abusive. so think of extra limbs like the same way.
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Prehensile tail as an extra limb should not be a problem, if you simply let the players know that they are still bound by the regular rules of combat regarding action(s)/reactions/bonus actions per round.
Even with the dual-wielding feat, that only gives them one extra attack - it can be with the off hand, or the tail, but does not allow for 2 extra attacks, and would have the same restrictions on what bonuses can be applied as an off-hand attack.
I see it as more of a way to enhance RP outside of combat, and give 'flavor' to combat scenarios.
Try using your feet to pick a knife (feel free to pick a safer object!). So long as you're not suffering from arthritis or other mobility issues, you should be able to do it without too much difficulty.
Now try "stabbing" something with that object. You really can't get any kind of force behind it - unless you're a gymnast or something.
The ability to pick something up with an appendage does not imply the ability to use it.
The problem with prehensile tails is that they consist of a series of joints - and joints are weak. That's why your arm isn't prehensile. It has a few joints to help you manipulate stuff, but it's most stretche of bone. Same with your legs. You can strengthen joint, like with your spine. However, that impedes its movement and makes it harder to make precision and fine movements. I think there is a good reason why I can't think of a single vase where an animal has a prehensile tail that is capable not only fine motor movements but also of bearing heavy weight. The tail is either for balance like a cat, brute force attacks like a brontosaurus, for specific tasks like gripping a tree like some monkeys or some niche use.
If an animal evolves the ability to use an appendage for both strength and fine manipulation, to my knowledge, it's always like our limbs - just the minimal number of joints to make it manipulatable, no more, because joints are a pig.
None of that is to say that if a DM and player want to make a prehensile tail like Nightcrawler's, here wrong. We're playing D&D to have fun, not simulate reality after all. However, real world logic can't really be used to justify it, that's all.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
My problem is that a Tieflings tail doesn't serve any purpose, and at that point, why even bother having a tail? It feels like there's no reason for them to have a tail if their tails are useless.
They might as well be a human with fire resistance, which you could probably yet on a variant human via a feat anyway. So at that point, why not just take a variant human, give them fire resistance via a feat and roleplay them as having cursed blood or something due to their ancestor's interactions with devils.
Or V.Human with fire resistance, who is a warlock of the fiend if you wanted specific devil related powers.
What is a USP of a Tiefling at that point?
Honestly, if you're going to get that crunchy, pretty much nothing has a point. It's all just numbers on a page, right? Everything is just flavour.
Regardless of game utility, I'd have the tail play a part in expressing emotion and communication. I'd also allow it to be used as a crude tool - to push things around and do simple tasks. The extent is something I'd work out if I ever actually DM for a Tiefling, though.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
My problem is that a Tieflings tail doesn't serve any purpose, and at that point, why even bother having a tail? It feels like there's no reason for them to have a tail if their tails are useless.
They might as well be a human with fire resistance, which you could probably yet on a variant human via a feat anyway. So at that point, why not just take a variant human, give them fire resistance via a feat and roleplay them as having cursed blood or something due to their ancestor's interactions with devils.
Or V.Human with fire resistance, who is a warlock of the fiend if you wanted specific devil related powers.
What is a USP of a Tiefling at that point?
Honestly, if you're going to get that crunchy, pretty much nothing has a point. It's all just numbers on a page, right? Everything is just flavour.
Regardless of game utility, I'd have the tail play a part in expressing emotion and communication. I'd also allow it to be used as a crude tool - to push things around and do simple tasks. The extent is something I'd work out if I ever actually DM for a Tiefling, though.
Isn’t it true that many other races were “made”? So they have the features they have because that’s what their gods wanted to them have. In that scenario, the features don’t have to be useful; if a god decided dwarfs will be short and elves will have pointy ears, then that’s the way they are.
To my knowledge, however, Tieflings aren't a “made” race.
Unless I am mistaken, of course, and as I think about it, I probably am.
IMC it wouldn't be a problem if the prehensile tail is only used to manipulate small object or support its weight etc but it would not have the strenght and agility of an extra hand/arm to be able to wield a weapon or shield for exemple.
Characters can do any non-combat, non-skill based action with their tail. If they could achieve it by "taking 10" or "taking 20" they are totally free to RP using their tail as part of it. This includes opening doors casually, holding something like a glass of wine, lifting up someone's skirt, etc.
If it requires a skill roll, bets are off UNLESS it's something that the tail is being used to flavor the skill check but I wouldn't allow something unique to that character BECAUSE they have a tail. If it provides a mechanical advantage then it should be listed as such. From an RP point of view it's a little grey: Backing up to a curtain would let someone more casually grab around blindly while the character looked like they were just standing around. That would be okay with me. Using it as a third apendage is right out.
And part of the reason I wouldn't allow it for combat is that combat generally isn't "I swing, I hit, you swing you hit". A combat round is 6 seconds during which there is a lot of back and forth, thrusts and parries, etc. It's a dance that lasts not a one and done. While someone might be able to pick up a dagger with their tail, and might be able to lash out with it once, doing so over a full combat round in a way that creates real risk for another armed individual is a different matter entirely.
My problem is that a Tieflings tail doesn't serve any purpose, and at that point, why even bother having a tail? It feels like there's no reason for them to have a tail if their tails are useless.
They might as well be a human with fire resistance, which you could probably yet on a variant human via a feat anyway. So at that point, why not just take a variant human, give them fire resistance via a feat and roleplay them as having cursed blood or something due to their ancestor's interactions with devils.
Or V.Human with fire resistance, who is a warlock of the fiend if you wanted specific devil related powers.
What is a USP of a Tiefling at that point?
Honestly, if you're going to get that crunchy, pretty much nothing has a point. It's all just numbers on a page, right? Everything is just flavour.
Regardless of game utility, I'd have the tail play a part in expressing emotion and communication. I'd also allow it to be used as a crude tool - to push things around and do simple tasks. The extent is something I'd work out if I ever actually DM for a Tiefling, though.
Isn’t it true that many other races were “made”? So they have the features they have because that’s what their gods wanted to them have. In that scenario, the features don’t have to be useful; if a god decided dwarfs will be short and elves will have pointy ears, then that’s the way they are.
To my knowledge, however, Tieflings aren't a “made” race.
Unless I am mistaken, of course, and as I think about it, I probably am.
Not so much "made" as "consequence."
Do you know what "mark of the beast" means IRL lore regarding spawn of Satan or demons or whatever? The horns, cloven feet, vestigial wings, forked tongues, "unnatural eyes", and whatever other evocative trait your game chooses to set off Tieflings as Tieflings, including their tails, function in much the same way. The physical features of the Tiefling are supposed to be stigma (look up where that word comes from) ... a sign that the Tiefling comes from a (usually human) bloodline that had some infernal dealings.
You don't need to stat it beyond descriptors. I'd actually say you shouldn't as Tieflings got enough going for them already.
Try using your feet to pick a knife (feel free to pick a safer object!). So long as you're not suffering from arthritis or other mobility issues, you should be able to do it without too much difficulty.
Now try "stabbing" something with that object. You really can't get any kind of force behind it - unless you're a gymnast or something.
The ability to pick something up with an appendage does not imply the ability to use it.
The problem with prehensile tails is that they consist of a series of joints - and joints are weak. That's why your arm isn't prehensile. It has a few joints to help you manipulate stuff, but it's most stretche of bone. Same with your legs. You can strengthen joint, like with your spine. However, that impedes its movement and makes it harder to make precision and fine movements. I think there is a good reason why I can't think of a single vase where an animal has a prehensile tail that is capable not only fine motor movements but also of bearing heavy weight. The tail is either for balance like a cat, brute force attacks like a brontosaurus, for specific tasks like gripping a tree like some monkeys or some niche use.
If an animal evolves the ability to use an appendage for both strength and fine manipulation, to my knowledge, it's always like our limbs - just the minimal number of joints to make it manipulatable, no more, because joints are a pig.
None of that is to say that if a DM and player want to make a prehensile tail like Nightcrawler's, here wrong. We're playing D&D to have fun, not simulate reality after all. However, real world logic can't really be used to justify it, that's all.
Monkeys would like to have a talk with you... they can use their feets as much as they can a hand, including picking up knives and using them. there are plenty of humans who have used their feet to great length as well. i think you underestimate the abilities one has. what you are describing isn't inability to use one feet, but the unproficiencies to use em. meaning if they aren't proficient, yes they would get the result you are talking about. but its only natural for one to have a natural proficiency with its own body. as an exemple, you wouldn'T be able to walk if you hadn't walked all your life. you wouldn't ever use a fork to eat if you hadn't learn how to. the same happens to everything...
now we're talking prehensile tail, prehensile means it has enough strength to actually grapple to things, like monkey tails. we're not talking cats tail who is used only to balance the cat. we're talking about an actual more then 1 use tail here.
this is why i say to be careful, because a prehensile tail, by definition... is like an extra arm. an extra arm means a lot when it comes to combat.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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Try using your feet to pick a knife (feel free to pick a safer object!). So long as you're not suffering from arthritis or other mobility issues, you should be able to do it without too much difficulty.
Now try "stabbing" something with that object. You really can't get any kind of force behind it - unless you're a gymnast or something.
The ability to pick something up with an appendage does not imply the ability to use it.
The problem with prehensile tails is that they consist of a series of joints - and joints are weak. That's why your arm isn't prehensile. It has a few joints to help you manipulate stuff, but it's most stretche of bone. Same with your legs. You can strengthen joint, like with your spine. However, that impedes its movement and makes it harder to make precision and fine movements. I think there is a good reason why I can't think of a single vase where an animal has a prehensile tail that is capable not only fine motor movements but also of bearing heavy weight. The tail is either for balance like a cat, brute force attacks like a brontosaurus, for specific tasks like gripping a tree like some monkeys or some niche use.
If an animal evolves the ability to use an appendage for both strength and fine manipulation, to my knowledge, it's always like our limbs - just the minimal number of joints to make it manipulatable, no more, because joints are a pig.
None of that is to say that if a DM and player want to make a prehensile tail like Nightcrawler's, here wrong. We're playing D&D to have fun, not simulate reality after all. However, real world logic can't really be used to justify it, that's all.
Monkeys would like to have a talk with you... they can use their feets as much as they can a hand, including picking up knives and using them. there are plenty of humans who have used their feet to great length as well. i think you underestimate the abilities one has. what you are describing isn't inability to use one feet, but the unproficiencies to use em. meaning if they aren't proficient, yes they would get the result you are talking about. but its only natural for one to have a natural proficiency with its own body. as an exemple, you wouldn'T be able to walk if you hadn't walked all your life. you wouldn't ever use a fork to eat if you hadn't learn how to. the same happens to everything...
now we're talking prehensile tail, prehensile means it has enough strength to actually grapple to things, like monkey tails. we're not talking cats tail who is used only to balance the cat. we're talking about an actual more then 1 use tail here.
this is why i say to be careful, because a prehensile tail, by definition... is like an extra arm. an extra arm means a lot when it comes to combat.
Thank you for the note of caution, I guess, but you mean grasp things, not grapple. You're seriously overinterpreting the literal and figurative strength of the word there. While an elephant's prehensile tusk can manipulate with much more proficiency, so to speak, than any simian's prehensile tale. A monkey's tale functionally provides some leverage on the occasion when swinging but has little ability to use its prehensility to manipulate objects, which is what we're talking about here re: Tieflings.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Thank you for the note of caution, I guess, but you mean grasp things, not grapple. You're seriously overinterpreting the literal and figurative strength of the word there. While an elephant's prehensile tusk can manipulate with much more proficiency, so to speak, than any simian's prehensile tale. A monkey's tale functionally provides some leverage on the occasion when swinging but has little ability to use its prehensility to manipulate objects, which is what we're talking about here re: Tieflings.
again, you are talking about creatures who didn't train their stuff at it... because they dont have the instincts of doing so. are you telling me tieflings are as dumb as animals ? are you telling me that if you had a prehensile tail you wouldn'T try yourself at grasping things and using them with that tail ? are you telling me you dont learn in your life ?
monkeys also... have proven capable of doing more then just balance with their tails, i suggest you go look the net for some footage... you'll be surprised what animals can do... including elephants who have teas with their masters and elephants able to do tricks with their trunks. i think you underestimate the learning ability of creatures.if in our own worlkd we are able to make such feats... it is easy to think what a fantasy world would be capable of.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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Thank you for the note of caution, I guess, but you mean grasp things, not grapple. You're seriously overinterpreting the literal and figurative strength of the word there. While an elephant's prehensile tusk can manipulate with much more proficiency, so to speak, than any simian's prehensile tale. A monkey's tale functionally provides some leverage on the occasion when swinging but has little ability to use its prehensility to manipulate objects, which is what we're talking about here re: Tieflings.
again, you are talking about creatures who didn't train their stuff at it... because they dont have the instincts of doing so. are you telling me tieflings are as dumb as animals ? are you telling me that if you had a prehensile tail you wouldn'T try yourself at grasping things and using them with that tail ? are you telling me you dont learn in your life ?
monkeys also... have proven capable of doing more then just balance with their tails, i suggest you go look the net for some footage... you'll be surprised what animals can do... including elephants who have teas with their masters and elephants able to do tricks with their trunks. i think you underestimate the learning ability of creatures.if in our own worlkd we are able to make such feats... it is easy to think what a fantasy world would be capable of.
I think your come lately endeavor is predicated on the one tweet you responded to and not really acknowledging the consensus or overall "gist" of the thread. If you had the mind to actually read the thread, as opposed to the impulsive drive to rehash what's already been discussed, you'd see that I was fine with Tiefling tails being use with "limb functionality" however only in a narrational sense and not granting them some sort of action economy breaking feature. You're free to let Tieflings learn to use their tails as limbs and grant them whatever. You can also let Tieflings learn to use their horns and hooves as natural weapons ... you can take all the things the race's actual design describe as cosmetic features to mark the race with infernal stigma and make them power sets.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Try using your feet to pick a knife (feel free to pick a safer object!). So long as you're not suffering from arthritis or other mobility issues, you should be able to do it without too much difficulty.
Now try "stabbing" something with that object. You really can't get any kind of force behind it - unless you're a gymnast or something.
The ability to pick something up with an appendage does not imply the ability to use it.
The problem with prehensile tails is that they consist of a series of joints - and joints are weak. That's why your arm isn't prehensile. It has a few joints to help you manipulate stuff, but it's most stretche of bone. Same with your legs. You can strengthen joint, like with your spine. However, that impedes its movement and makes it harder to make precision and fine movements. I think there is a good reason why I can't think of a single vase where an animal has a prehensile tail that is capable not only fine motor movements but also of bearing heavy weight. The tail is either for balance like a cat, brute force attacks like a brontosaurus, for specific tasks like gripping a tree like some monkeys or some niche use.
If an animal evolves the ability to use an appendage for both strength and fine manipulation, to my knowledge, it's always like our limbs - just the minimal number of joints to make it manipulatable, no more, because joints are a pig.
None of that is to say that if a DM and player want to make a prehensile tail like Nightcrawler's, here wrong. We're playing D&D to have fun, not simulate reality after all. However, real world logic can't really be used to justify it, that's all.
Monkeys would like to have a talk with you... they can use their feets as much as they can a hand, including picking up knives and using them.
That's great, I'm glad for them. I wasn't saying that no foot on any animal ever existed was ever capable of handling a knife, though. I was pointing out that the ability of an appendage to pick up an object does not imply the ability to use it as a weapon. I was pointing out the example that most people can pick up a knife with their feet, but using those same feet they couldn't come even close to using enough strength to stab someone with it.
there are plenty of humans who have used their feet to great length as well. i think you underestimate the abilities one has. what you are describing isn't inability to use one feet, but the unproficiencies to use em. meaning if they aren't proficient, yes they would get the result you are talking about. but its only natural for one to have a natural proficiency with its own body. as an exemple, you wouldn'T be able to walk if you hadn't walked all your life. you wouldn't ever use a fork to eat if you hadn't learn how to. the same happens to everything...
As already explained, this doesn't respond to my point, I also mentioned this point - there are exceptions, but they aren't applocable. Please read what I'm saying before responding.
now we're talking prehensile tail, prehensile means it has enough strength to actually grapple to things, like monkey tails. we're not talking cats tail who is used only to balance the cat. we're talking about an actual more then 1 use tail here.
No it doesn't mean it has the strength the grapple something. It can grasp or in someway manipulate - but that's where the similarities to an arm end. It is not capable of grappling things comparable in size. Here's a thought experiment - try using your little finger to grapple with someone (a capable adult) else's little finger, try and restrain them while they do their best to escape. Hint: Don't. If you're lucky or weak, it will hurt you. If you're not so lucky, one of you might break your finger (hence why you shouldn't do it, I don't want to be responsible for a hospital trip!). The reason why is the same reason why grappling tails don't work - lots of joints for short distance of rigid bone. Another thought experiment - tug on a pet's leg or arm (even one with a prehensile tail), then do the same to their tail. I insist that this is a thought experiment because while tugging on their arm or leg shouldn't be injurious (assuming you're not going nuts on it), the tail will.
this is why i say to be careful, because a prehensile tail, by definition... is like an extra arm. an extra arm means a lot when it comes to combat.
It really isn't an extra arm. It's built very differently which really effects how things work. You can do things with prehensile tails that you can't with arms, like actually wrap around stuff (rather than the limited approximation that we can do with an arm), and you can do stuff with your arm that you can't do with a prehemsile tail - like get as much leverage or assert as much strength. That's why our limbs evolved the way they did - if a prehensile tail could do every thing our arms and legs can do with even close to their strength, then it would be massively advantageous to have that structure in our arms and legs. Unfortunately, that's not true - hence most animals either have both (with the arm/leg structure limbs outnumbering the tail structure ones) or only have arms/legs.
I'll say again - if a DM and party wish to ignore this reality, that's absolutely fine by me - realism preventing fun is contrary to the spirit of D&D anyway - although I do agree with you that it should be done with caution. Even a realistic tail as I proposed would be a substantial advantage at times, let alone one that can wield a blade. My point is that nature doesn't support such a concept. Human sized creatures with tails wouldn't have that much use for realistic prehensile tails due to the square-cube law (unlike monkeys who are much lighter and can use it more things). It would just be useful for pushing things around (sliding a dagger that's on the floor towards a fallen team mate, for instance), but you couldn't use it like a monkey to support your weight, it would certainly break or even break off. There's a good reason why apes have evolved to get rid of tails.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
My problem is that a Tieflings tail doesn't serve any purpose, and at that point, why even bother having a tail? It feels like there's no reason for them to have a tail if their tails are useless.
"Not being able to use as on overpowered tool" is not the same as "useless". Dwarf beards also not have magical superpowers. Are they also useless?
They might as well be a human with fire resistance, which you could probably yet on a variant human via a feat anyway. So at that point, why not just take a variant human, give them fire resistance via a feat and roleplay them as having cursed blood or something due to their ancestor's interactions with devils.
Or V.Human with fire resistance, who is a warlock of the fiend if you wanted specific devil related powers.
You can do that, or you can actually lean into the racial traits of tieflings that are in no way whatsoever reliant on them having a third arm in the form of their tails.
What is a USP of a Tiefling at that point?
Why do you feel that a race has to have special powers to be interesting to play? I mean, besides all the special powers that Tieflings already have...
many people plays races only if they have importance to their characters abilities... hence why D&D is becoming boring and more boring by hvaing no downside to nay races... i loved the flaws... creatures of life has flaws, without them they are just boring.
but whatever, if people think tieflings are useless without a tail then its their choice. mines are already great for i think tieflings are the best races of d&d.
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I don't get this. Why should tieflings have horns if they are useless? Or unusual colored skin? Or elves have pointy ears? Or dwarves have beards? Or minotaurs have bull faces? Orc tusks? Leonin's mane? Aarokocra's beak? Heck, everything about a tabaxi's appearance??? And so on.
The majority of what makes each race unique is their appearance, and nearly all of that doesn't have some specific game purpose.
Do you also hate dogs?
By all definitions of prehensile, cats, dogs, rabbits, and cows do not have them. However, the tails may not have a use that comes up in game, they certainly add favor if you consider emotional states; they move and twitch for example; and you can certainly narrate your character that way. Another way, is explaining certain rolls, like someone else stepping on it when you roll a 1 in combat.
When I played a lizard folk monk, my tail was a weapon. I swung with my sword twice (kensai), and then with flurry, would round house kick, follow by a slap of the tail. All because all the parts of the body of a monk is considered valid for unarmed strike. Otherwise, the tail can't do anyting game wise.
Not everything needs to have the utility of extra arms of a thri-kreen or a Loxodon's trunk, to be interesting to play.
by experience, be aware that giving more limbs to a player will make them immediately try to abuse it by adding more weapons or more shields.
shuields have a rule that says, you can only gain benefits from 1 only.
but weapons...
its gonna be DM dependant.
like they will probably try to grapple with a third limb and then just whack senseless the person. or they will try to have another free attack with it by grasping say a dagger. or god forbid, a longsword.
if you add more limbs, just be aware of all the shenanigans the players will think of doing to abuse it.
givingextra limbs, is the equivalent of giving flight at level 1. aarakocras have proven to be very abusive. so think of extra limbs like the same way.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Prehensile tail as an extra limb should not be a problem, if you simply let the players know that they are still bound by the regular rules of combat regarding action(s)/reactions/bonus actions per round.
Even with the dual-wielding feat, that only gives them one extra attack - it can be with the off hand, or the tail, but does not allow for 2 extra attacks, and would have the same restrictions on what bonuses can be applied as an off-hand attack.
I see it as more of a way to enhance RP outside of combat, and give 'flavor' to combat scenarios.
Try using your feet to pick a knife (feel free to pick a safer object!). So long as you're not suffering from arthritis or other mobility issues, you should be able to do it without too much difficulty.
Now try "stabbing" something with that object. You really can't get any kind of force behind it - unless you're a gymnast or something.
The ability to pick something up with an appendage does not imply the ability to use it.
The problem with prehensile tails is that they consist of a series of joints - and joints are weak. That's why your arm isn't prehensile. It has a few joints to help you manipulate stuff, but it's most stretche of bone. Same with your legs. You can strengthen joint, like with your spine. However, that impedes its movement and makes it harder to make precision and fine movements. I think there is a good reason why I can't think of a single vase where an animal has a prehensile tail that is capable not only fine motor movements but also of bearing heavy weight. The tail is either for balance like a cat, brute force attacks like a brontosaurus, for specific tasks like gripping a tree like some monkeys or some niche use.
If an animal evolves the ability to use an appendage for both strength and fine manipulation, to my knowledge, it's always like our limbs - just the minimal number of joints to make it manipulatable, no more, because joints are a pig.
None of that is to say that if a DM and player want to make a prehensile tail like Nightcrawler's, here wrong. We're playing D&D to have fun, not simulate reality after all. However, real world logic can't really be used to justify it, that's all.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Honestly, if you're going to get that crunchy, pretty much nothing has a point. It's all just numbers on a page, right? Everything is just flavour.
Regardless of game utility, I'd have the tail play a part in expressing emotion and communication. I'd also allow it to be used as a crude tool - to push things around and do simple tasks. The extent is something I'd work out if I ever actually DM for a Tiefling, though.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Isn’t it true that many other races were “made”? So they have the features they have because that’s what their gods wanted to them have. In that scenario, the features don’t have to be useful; if a god decided dwarfs will be short and elves will have pointy ears, then that’s the way they are.
To my knowledge, however, Tieflings aren't a “made” race.
Unless I am mistaken, of course, and as I think about it, I probably am.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
IMC it wouldn't be a problem if the prehensile tail is only used to manipulate small object or support its weight etc but it would not have the strenght and agility of an extra hand/arm to be able to wield a weapon or shield for exemple.
At my table:
Characters can do any non-combat, non-skill based action with their tail. If they could achieve it by "taking 10" or "taking 20" they are totally free to RP using their tail as part of it. This includes opening doors casually, holding something like a glass of wine, lifting up someone's skirt, etc.
If it requires a skill roll, bets are off UNLESS it's something that the tail is being used to flavor the skill check but I wouldn't allow something unique to that character BECAUSE they have a tail. If it provides a mechanical advantage then it should be listed as such. From an RP point of view it's a little grey: Backing up to a curtain would let someone more casually grab around blindly while the character looked like they were just standing around. That would be okay with me. Using it as a third apendage is right out.
And part of the reason I wouldn't allow it for combat is that combat generally isn't "I swing, I hit, you swing you hit". A combat round is 6 seconds during which there is a lot of back and forth, thrusts and parries, etc. It's a dance that lasts not a one and done. While someone might be able to pick up a dagger with their tail, and might be able to lash out with it once, doing so over a full combat round in a way that creates real risk for another armed individual is a different matter entirely.
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Not so much "made" as "consequence."
Do you know what "mark of the beast" means IRL lore regarding spawn of Satan or demons or whatever? The horns, cloven feet, vestigial wings, forked tongues, "unnatural eyes", and whatever other evocative trait your game chooses to set off Tieflings as Tieflings, including their tails, function in much the same way. The physical features of the Tiefling are supposed to be stigma (look up where that word comes from) ... a sign that the Tiefling comes from a (usually human) bloodline that had some infernal dealings.
You don't need to stat it beyond descriptors. I'd actually say you shouldn't as Tieflings got enough going for them already.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Monkeys would like to have a talk with you... they can use their feets as much as they can a hand, including picking up knives and using them. there are plenty of humans who have used their feet to great length as well. i think you underestimate the abilities one has. what you are describing isn't inability to use one feet, but the unproficiencies to use em. meaning if they aren't proficient, yes they would get the result you are talking about. but its only natural for one to have a natural proficiency with its own body. as an exemple, you wouldn'T be able to walk if you hadn't walked all your life. you wouldn't ever use a fork to eat if you hadn't learn how to. the same happens to everything...
now we're talking prehensile tail, prehensile means it has enough strength to actually grapple to things, like monkey tails. we're not talking cats tail who is used only to balance the cat. we're talking about an actual more then 1 use tail here.
this is why i say to be careful, because a prehensile tail, by definition... is like an extra arm.
an extra arm means a lot when it comes to combat.
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Thank you for the note of caution, I guess, but you mean grasp things, not grapple. You're seriously overinterpreting the literal and figurative strength of the word there. While an elephant's prehensile tusk can manipulate with much more proficiency, so to speak, than any simian's prehensile tale. A monkey's tale functionally provides some leverage on the occasion when swinging but has little ability to use its prehensility to manipulate objects, which is what we're talking about here re: Tieflings.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
again, you are talking about creatures who didn't train their stuff at it... because they dont have the instincts of doing so.
are you telling me tieflings are as dumb as animals ?
are you telling me that if you had a prehensile tail you wouldn'T try yourself at grasping things and using them with that tail ?
are you telling me you dont learn in your life ?
monkeys also... have proven capable of doing more then just balance with their tails, i suggest you go look the net for some footage... you'll be surprised what animals can do... including elephants who have teas with their masters and elephants able to do tricks with their trunks. i think you underestimate the learning ability of creatures.if in our own worlkd we are able to make such feats... it is easy to think what a fantasy world would be capable of.
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I think your come lately endeavor is predicated on the one tweet you responded to and not really acknowledging the consensus or overall "gist" of the thread. If you had the mind to actually read the thread, as opposed to the impulsive drive to rehash what's already been discussed, you'd see that I was fine with Tiefling tails being use with "limb functionality" however only in a narrational sense and not granting them some sort of action economy breaking feature. You're free to let Tieflings learn to use their tails as limbs and grant them whatever. You can also let Tieflings learn to use their horns and hooves as natural weapons ... you can take all the things the race's actual design describe as cosmetic features to mark the race with infernal stigma and make them power sets.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
That's great, I'm glad for them. I wasn't saying that no foot on any animal ever existed was ever capable of handling a knife, though. I was pointing out that the ability of an appendage to pick up an object does not imply the ability to use it as a weapon. I was pointing out the example that most people can pick up a knife with their feet, but using those same feet they couldn't come even close to using enough strength to stab someone with it.
As already explained, this doesn't respond to my point, I also mentioned this point - there are exceptions, but they aren't applocable. Please read what I'm saying before responding.
No it doesn't mean it has the strength the grapple something. It can grasp or in someway manipulate - but that's where the similarities to an arm end. It is not capable of grappling things comparable in size. Here's a thought experiment - try using your little finger to grapple with someone (a capable adult) else's little finger, try and restrain them while they do their best to escape. Hint: Don't. If you're lucky or weak, it will hurt you. If you're not so lucky, one of you might break your finger (hence why you shouldn't do it, I don't want to be responsible for a hospital trip!). The reason why is the same reason why grappling tails don't work - lots of joints for short distance of rigid bone. Another thought experiment - tug on a pet's leg or arm (even one with a prehensile tail), then do the same to their tail. I insist that this is a thought experiment because while tugging on their arm or leg shouldn't be injurious (assuming you're not going nuts on it), the tail will.
It really isn't an extra arm. It's built very differently which really effects how things work. You can do things with prehensile tails that you can't with arms, like actually wrap around stuff (rather than the limited approximation that we can do with an arm), and you can do stuff with your arm that you can't do with a prehemsile tail - like get as much leverage or assert as much strength. That's why our limbs evolved the way they did - if a prehensile tail could do every thing our arms and legs can do with even close to their strength, then it would be massively advantageous to have that structure in our arms and legs. Unfortunately, that's not true - hence most animals either have both (with the arm/leg structure limbs outnumbering the tail structure ones) or only have arms/legs.
I'll say again - if a DM and party wish to ignore this reality, that's absolutely fine by me - realism preventing fun is contrary to the spirit of D&D anyway - although I do agree with you that it should be done with caution. Even a realistic tail as I proposed would be a substantial advantage at times, let alone one that can wield a blade. My point is that nature doesn't support such a concept. Human sized creatures with tails wouldn't have that much use for realistic prehensile tails due to the square-cube law (unlike monkeys who are much lighter and can use it more things). It would just be useful for pushing things around (sliding a dagger that's on the floor towards a fallen team mate, for instance), but you couldn't use it like a monkey to support your weight, it would certainly break or even break off. There's a good reason why apes have evolved to get rid of tails.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
"Not being able to use as on overpowered tool" is not the same as "useless". Dwarf beards also not have magical superpowers. Are they also useless?
You can do that, or you can actually lean into the racial traits of tieflings that are in no way whatsoever reliant on them having a third arm in the form of their tails.
Why do you feel that a race has to have special powers to be interesting to play? I mean, besides all the special powers that Tieflings already have...
many people plays races only if they have importance to their characters abilities...
hence why D&D is becoming boring and more boring by hvaing no downside to nay races...
i loved the flaws... creatures of life has flaws, without them they are just boring.
but whatever, if people think tieflings are useless without a tail then its their choice.
mines are already great for i think tieflings are the best races of d&d.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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This thread has turned out to be most excellent. I love all of your replies and the conversation that we have going.
Although I think the fact that we are still discussing this so many years later is remarkable.
Thank you all for your wonderful replies.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.