Whenever you make an attack roll, you can spend one luck point point to roll an additional d20. You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined. You choose which of the d20s is used for the attack roll. You can also spend one luck point when an attack roll is made against you. Roll a d20, and then choose whether the attack uses the attacker's roll or yours.
The specific information your looking for is unclear, though I suspect I know what you mean. However, I will go over every possibility just to be safe. If the selected die is a natural 20, it is still a Critical Hit/Automatic Success, doesn't matter if it was the lucky die or not. You can choose to use the lucky feat even if you did roll a natural 20, and even select the worse option if you want. The topic of when you may use the lucky feat on an attacker's attack roll targeting you is somewhat unclear. When I DM I say that that portion of the feat can be used like the previous portion, meaning that I would allow you to use the lucky feat against an opponent's natural 20 attack roll after it was rolled. However, other DMs may not as the text specifically says "when an attack roll is made against you" which could imply that you must declare you are using it before the die is rolled. Ask your DM for how they are interpreting this. If you are DMing, I would suggest doing it my way, as the other way makes the lucky feat less fun and reliable. Fun and good Roleplaying should always be top priority.
Are you are asking about the second part of the feat, where you can spend a luck point and can roll, using either your roll or an attacker's? The answer would be yes, it circumvents a natural 20 if that's what the attacker rolled, unless you also roll a natural 20. But... you wouldn't know if the attacker rolled a nat 20, only that it hit. (And I've seen people say that according to the wording, you wouldn't even know if it hit before having to declare a luck point is being used)
Luck can most definitely be used on a natural 20 as much as on a natural 1.
The tricky bit is the "but before the outcome is determined." part, as you would have no way of knowing if you just modified a critical hit, a normal hit or a miss when using this on an enemy. In home games (and I suspect AL to some extent) that part can be kinda ignored, or made less strict, especially if (like me) the DM declares more or less right away when they roll a crit.
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Luck can most definitely be used on a natural 20 as much as on a natural 1.
The tricky bit is the "but before the outcome is determined." part,
In the case of being attacked, you could interpret “after the outcome is determined” to mean damage dice had already been rolled, and you know they rolled well enough to kill you. I think DMs need to at least announce their roll before they roll damage, even if they know they beat your AC, so you have a chance to use your reaction abilities/spells. However, I think it’s meant to work more like “So, the dragon is going to try to rake Bob with his claws.” “I don’t really want to be raked right now, so I’ll spend a luck point.”
Because I think when making attack roll “before the outcome is determined” is always meant to keep people from being able to say “13!” “13 misses.” “Wait! I’ll spend a luck point.” I imagine the intended scenario sounds more like “11. That’s not awesome. Luck point. There we go. 18.” You have to decide to spend it before you know if it makes the difference.
I will share a bit more information. A party member, a rogue to be exact, in the group that I adventure with just made 8th level and chose to forego his ability boost for a feat. After having discussed his possible choices with our DM he chose LUCKY. During our gaming session our DM rolled a natural 20 at which point the player announces his use of the LUCKY feat in order to try and change that outcome. The argument revolved around whether or not a natural 20 is inviolate and thus immune to the effects of the feat. The decision was made to allow him the roll (he rolled a 17 which was high enough to hit his AC but negated the critical) but our DM stated he would think about the situation and warned us not to be surprised if that had been a one off.
I realise that DM's have discretion on how the rules are interpreted and am just seeking others opinions and/or experiences regarding this or similar situations.
In terms of the LUCKY feat itself, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the two possible effects, though both effecting the outcome of a die roll, work independently of each other? Meaning that in the second use, where you effect an attack roll made against you, there is no requirement that you must make your LUCKY roll BEFORE the outcome is determined.
I will share a bit more information. A party member, a rogue to be exact, in the group that I adventure with just made 8th level and chose to forego his ability boost for a feat. After having discussed his possible choices with our DM he chose LUCKY. During our gaming session our DM rolled a natural 20 at which point the player announces his use of the LUCKY feat in order to try and change that outcome. The argument revolved around whether or not a natural 20 is inviolate and thus immune to the effects of the feat. The decision was made to allow him the roll (he rolled a 17 which was high enough to hit his AC but negated the critical) but our DM stated he would think about the situation and warned us not to be surprised if that had been a one off.
I realise that DM's have discretion on how the rules are interpreted and am just seeking others opinions and/or experiences regarding this or similar situations.
In terms of the LUCKY feat itself, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the two possible effects, though both effecting the outcome of a die roll, work independently of each other? Meaning that in the second use, where you effect an attack roll made against you, there is no requirement that you must make your LUCKY roll BEFORE the outcome is determined.
RAW, the "before the outcome is determined" bit applies to all applications of the feat, regardless whether it is for a PC roll or a DM roll.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
In terms of the LUCKY feat itself, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the two possible effects, though both effecting the outcome of a die roll, work independently of each other? Meaning that in the second use, where you effect an attack roll made against you, there is no requirement that you must make your LUCKY roll BEFORE the outcome is determined.
RAW, the "before the outcome is determined" bit applies to all applications of the feat, regardless whether it is for a PC roll or a DM roll.
I have to agree with j3str3 here. The different aspects of the Lucky feat are independent of each other, depending on whether we are talking about the lucky character's roll or another roll. For you to use it on your own roll, you must decide to use it after you rolled a D20 for attack, ability check, or saving throw but before the outcome is determined (i.e. the DM says you failed the saving throw.) If you are spending a luck point to counter a critical attack from another, you choose to spend the luck point to roll again after you know their roll. See https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-you-use-lucky-feat-before-or-after-an-attacker-has-rolled/ for more info.
I guess a DM could say the roll amount to the lucky character first, then add in any modifiers after they decided whether to use the luck point or not, but that isn't RAW. The only restriction on "...before the outcome is determined" is for your own rolls. This is to prevent it from being too OP. OP example: Player: "I roll a 10 + 2 for a total of 12." DM: "That's a miss." Player: "Luck point!"
versus only marginally OP: Player: "Crap, I rolled a 1. Luck point!"
I will share a bit more information. A party member, a rogue to be exact, in the group that I adventure with just made 8th level and chose to forego his ability boost for a feat. After having discussed his possible choices with our DM he chose LUCKY. During our gaming session our DM rolled a natural 20 at which point the player announces his use of the LUCKY feat in order to try and change that outcome. The argument revolved around whether or not a natural 20 is inviolate and thus immune to the effects of the feat. The decision was made to allow him the roll (he rolled a 17 which was high enough to hit his AC but negated the critical) but our DM stated he would think about the situation and warned us not to be surprised if that had been a one off.
I realise that DM's have discretion on how the rules are interpreted and am just seeking others opinions and/or experiences regarding this or similar situations.
In terms of the LUCKY feat itself, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the two possible effects, though both effecting the outcome of a die roll, work independently of each other? Meaning that in the second use, where you effect an attack roll made against you, there is no requirement that you must make your LUCKY roll BEFORE the outcome is determined.
While it is absolutely RAW to observe the DMs have the privilege of interpreting the rules any way they think proper, I'm sure this DM hasn't thought this through.
To be consistent, the view that a 20 is inviolate and can't be undone would not hold up long. Would he also refrain from using legendary actions in response to a crit 20 rolled against his dragons and other major foes? How many times have you done something and the DM says, "Nope, Legendary Action is used for an automatic save".
This is a case where a DM needs to let the players "build" work exactly the way it was intended. You only get three luck points per long rest. Let it go at that and let the player have his feat.
But the DM is empowered to rule this however he thinks best.
Good luck and enjoy the game.
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That's a singularly unhelpful bit of Sage Advice, if I can be honest for a sec, and doesn't answer the question that was asked. Of course "the attacker must make a roll for you to make this choice", you can't choose for or against the attacker's roll if the attacker doesn't make a roll. None of that reply addresses the timing issue though. The choice "between using your roll or your attacker's" must obviously come after the attacker makes a roll, but the timing issue pertains to the choice to use the feat or not - and by the rules, that choice must be made before the outcome is determined and thus before the player knows the attacker's roll's result.
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I always announce the attack rolls of monsters when GMing to give players the option to use Reactions like casting Shield or using the Lucky feat. Otherwise you're making the use of such limited abilities rely far too heavily on guesswork for them to actually be useful.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I always announce the attack rolls of monsters when GMing to give players the option to use Reactions like casting Shield or using the Lucky feat. Otherwise you're making the use of such limited abilities rely far too heavily on guesswork for them to actually be useful.
Shield is literally a reaction triggered by getting hit, the spell explicitly clarifies this in its description. I think most DMs don't determine whether enemies hit but rather announce the attack roll and ask whether it does, in which case the player has all the info they need in order to make the right decision about using Shield or not. What to do with Lucky is up to each DM, I don't think there's really a fundamentally wrong choice here, but the difference with something like Shield is big enough that I'd call one a choice between RAW and a houserule, and the other a choice between interpretations of the RAW.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I always announce the attack rolls of monsters when GMing to give players the option to use Reactions like casting Shield or using the Lucky feat. Otherwise you're making the use of such limited abilities rely far too heavily on guesswork for them to actually be useful.
Shield is literally a reaction triggered by getting hit, the spell explicitly clarifies this in its description. I think most DMs don't determine whether enemies hit but rather announce the attack roll and ask whether it does, in which case the player has all the info they need in order to make the right decision about using Shield or not. What to do with Lucky is up to each DM, I don't think there's really a fundamentally wrong choice here, but the difference with something like Shield is big enough that I'd call one a choice between RAW and a houserule, and the other a choice between interpretations of the RAW.
Yeah, but nothing in the description says that you know what the attack roll was and consequently whether a +5 to your AC would matter. So strict RAW you could be left guessing as to whether or not it's worth burning your Reaction and a spell slot when you get hit.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I always announce the attack rolls of monsters when GMing to give players the option to use Reactions like casting Shield or using the Lucky feat. Otherwise you're making the use of such limited abilities rely far too heavily on guesswork for them to actually be useful.
Shield is literally a reaction triggered by getting hit, the spell explicitly clarifies this in its description. I think most DMs don't determine whether enemies hit but rather announce the attack roll and ask whether it does, in which case the player has all the info they need in order to make the right decision about using Shield or not. What to do with Lucky is up to each DM, I don't think there's really a fundamentally wrong choice here, but the difference with something like Shield is big enough that I'd call one a choice between RAW and a houserule, and the other a choice between interpretations of the RAW.
Yeah, but nothing in the description says that you know what the attack roll was and consequently whether a +5 to your AC would matter. So strict RAW you could be left guessing as to whether or not it's worth burning your Reaction and a spell slot when you get hit.
Absolutely - just saying, strict RAW with Luck you definitely are supposed to be left guessing. With Shield it's a matter of how you (choose to) interpret the RAW whether you get to know or have to guess; with Lucky you guess or you houserule.
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Question for the community and please forgive me if this has already been discussed...
Does the LUCK feat circumvent a rolled 20 on an attack roll?
Cropped text from the Lucky Feat:
Whenever you make an attack roll, you can spend one luck point point to roll an additional d20. You can choose to spend one of your luck points after you roll the die, but before the outcome is determined. You choose which of the d20s is used for the attack roll. You can also spend one luck point when an attack roll is made against you. Roll a d20, and then choose whether the attack uses the attacker's roll or yours.
The specific information your looking for is unclear, though I suspect I know what you mean. However, I will go over every possibility just to be safe. If the selected die is a natural 20, it is still a Critical Hit/Automatic Success, doesn't matter if it was the lucky die or not. You can choose to use the lucky feat even if you did roll a natural 20, and even select the worse option if you want. The topic of when you may use the lucky feat on an attacker's attack roll targeting you is somewhat unclear. When I DM I say that that portion of the feat can be used like the previous portion, meaning that I would allow you to use the lucky feat against an opponent's natural 20 attack roll after it was rolled. However, other DMs may not as the text specifically says "when an attack roll is made against you" which could imply that you must declare you are using it before the die is rolled. Ask your DM for how they are interpreting this. If you are DMing, I would suggest doing it my way, as the other way makes the lucky feat less fun and reliable. Fun and good Roleplaying should always be top priority.
Are you are asking about the second part of the feat, where you can spend a luck point and can roll, using either your roll or an attacker's? The answer would be yes, it circumvents a natural 20 if that's what the attacker rolled, unless you also roll a natural 20. But... you wouldn't know if the attacker rolled a nat 20, only that it hit. (And I've seen people say that according to the wording, you wouldn't even know if it hit before having to declare a luck point is being used)
Luck can most definitely be used on a natural 20 as much as on a natural 1.
The tricky bit is the "but before the outcome is determined." part, as you would have no way of knowing if you just modified a critical hit, a normal hit or a miss when using this on an enemy.
In home games (and I suspect AL to some extent) that part can be kinda ignored, or made less strict, especially if (like me) the DM declares more or less right away when they roll a crit.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
In the case of being attacked, you could interpret “after the outcome is determined” to mean damage dice had already been rolled, and you know they rolled well enough to kill you. I think DMs need to at least announce their roll before they roll damage, even if they know they beat your AC, so you have a chance to use your reaction abilities/spells. However, I think it’s meant to work more like “So, the dragon is going to try to rake Bob with his claws.” “I don’t really want to be raked right now, so I’ll spend a luck point.”
Because I think when making attack roll “before the outcome is determined” is always meant to keep people from being able to say “13!” “13 misses.” “Wait! I’ll spend a luck point.” I imagine the intended scenario sounds more like “11. That’s not awesome. Luck point. There we go. 18.” You have to decide to spend it before you know if it makes the difference.
Thanks to all that have responded thus far.
I will share a bit more information. A party member, a rogue to be exact, in the group that I adventure with just made 8th level and chose to forego his ability boost for a feat. After having discussed his possible choices with our DM he chose LUCKY. During our gaming session our DM rolled a natural 20 at which point the player announces his use of the LUCKY feat in order to try and change that outcome. The argument revolved around whether or not a natural 20 is inviolate and thus immune to the effects of the feat. The decision was made to allow him the roll (he rolled a 17 which was high enough to hit his AC but negated the critical) but our DM stated he would think about the situation and warned us not to be surprised if that had been a one off.
I realise that DM's have discretion on how the rules are interpreted and am just seeking others opinions and/or experiences regarding this or similar situations.
In terms of the LUCKY feat itself, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the two possible effects, though both effecting the outcome of a die roll, work independently of each other? Meaning that in the second use, where you effect an attack roll made against you, there is no requirement that you must make your LUCKY roll BEFORE the outcome is determined.
RAW, the "before the outcome is determined" bit applies to all applications of the feat, regardless whether it is for a PC roll or a DM roll.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I have to agree with j3str3 here. The different aspects of the Lucky feat are independent of each other, depending on whether we are talking about the lucky character's roll or another roll.
For you to use it on your own roll, you must decide to use it after you rolled a D20 for attack, ability check, or saving throw but before the outcome is determined (i.e. the DM says you failed the saving throw.) If you are spending a luck point to counter a critical attack from another, you choose to spend the luck point to roll again after you know their roll. See https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-you-use-lucky-feat-before-or-after-an-attacker-has-rolled/ for more info.
I guess a DM could say the roll amount to the lucky character first, then add in any modifiers after they decided whether to use the luck point or not, but that isn't RAW. The only restriction on "...before the outcome is determined" is for your own rolls. This is to prevent it from being too OP.
OP example:
Player: "I roll a 10 + 2 for a total of 12."
DM: "That's a miss."
Player: "Luck point!"
versus only marginally OP:
Player: "Crap, I rolled a 1. Luck point!"
While it is absolutely RAW to observe the DMs have the privilege of interpreting the rules any way they think proper, I'm sure this DM hasn't thought this through.
To be consistent, the view that a 20 is inviolate and can't be undone would not hold up long. Would he also refrain from using legendary actions in response to a crit 20 rolled against his dragons and other major foes? How many times have you done something and the DM says, "Nope, Legendary Action is used for an automatic save".
This is a case where a DM needs to let the players "build" work exactly the way it was intended. You only get three luck points per long rest. Let it go at that and let the player have his feat.
But the DM is empowered to rule this however he thinks best.
Good luck and enjoy the game.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
That's a singularly unhelpful bit of Sage Advice, if I can be honest for a sec, and doesn't answer the question that was asked. Of course "the attacker must make a roll for you to make this choice", you can't choose for or against the attacker's roll if the attacker doesn't make a roll. None of that reply addresses the timing issue though. The choice "between using your roll or your attacker's" must obviously come after the attacker makes a roll, but the timing issue pertains to the choice to use the feat or not - and by the rules, that choice must be made before the outcome is determined and thus before the player knows the attacker's roll's result.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I always announce the attack rolls of monsters when GMing to give players the option to use Reactions like casting Shield or using the Lucky feat. Otherwise you're making the use of such limited abilities rely far too heavily on guesswork for them to actually be useful.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Shield is literally a reaction triggered by getting hit, the spell explicitly clarifies this in its description. I think most DMs don't determine whether enemies hit but rather announce the attack roll and ask whether it does, in which case the player has all the info they need in order to make the right decision about using Shield or not. What to do with Lucky is up to each DM, I don't think there's really a fundamentally wrong choice here, but the difference with something like Shield is big enough that I'd call one a choice between RAW and a houserule, and the other a choice between interpretations of the RAW.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah, but nothing in the description says that you know what the attack roll was and consequently whether a +5 to your AC would matter. So strict RAW you could be left guessing as to whether or not it's worth burning your Reaction and a spell slot when you get hit.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Luck roll chosen is in place of the original one, whatever it was. It means it can circumvent a nat 20 since it will never be the roll retained.
Absolutely - just saying, strict RAW with Luck you definitely are supposed to be left guessing. With Shield it's a matter of how you (choose to) interpret the RAW whether you get to know or have to guess; with Lucky you guess or you houserule.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Yeah, and I don't like that RAW because a feat is a big investment and one that can only be used three times per long rest even more so.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.