Edit: doesn't need to be the combat star of the party - just a partial-support type as far as attacks. I am just getting back into DND and it's my first time playing 5e. Please help me with my character build.
Basically, I want my character to be able to do some decent attacks in combat as well as cast spells, and I love skills and RP. By his backstory the character is almost certainly a skald type- he's very social with a genuine interest in the world, wanting to develop himself and inspire others, using the spoken word and song a lot. He's also from the North and good with wilderness stuff.
I imagine him being good at many skills and talking to others, casting utility and combat spells, buffing his teammates and also getting some attacks in while keeping himself away from the main brunt of the enemy - perhaps shooting arrows.
Would a Valor Bard Archer be a good way to have all this? I've seen many mention it as a great combat strategy, with 4 attacks later on, for this type of character and it would fit my guy RP-wise, as he stays away from the front line, but still gets to yell shit out, do some buffing of others, cast spells, but also have significant attacks.
Questions:
If he's the archer build, would rapier be good as a backup melee weapon (for epic flavor in some situations)? Should he have a shield for when he's using the rapier or just a sword?
Is casting with a bow going to be a problem? What about with a sword and shield?
Armor-wise - since this build would have a high DEX (I imagine), is breastplate or something else worth it (capping out the modifier at 2)? Or should he use only light armor?
Will I be sacrificing any cool stuff (magic, skills, abilities etc.) optimizing his ranged attack?
Is getting feats going to leave him on the low end with ability scores? If I raise scores, should it be straight DEX and CHA?
What would be the optimal progression by levels to build this guy?
Ability Scores (char is half-elf):
Our DM is letting us use standard array or point-buy. So I was thinking of doing:
10 16(+1 incl.) 12 (+1 incl.) 10 12 16 (+2 incl.)
or
10 16(+1 incl.) 14(+1 incl.) 10 10 16(+2 incl.)
I hate negative modifiers and I'm really into skills, which is why the 10s being lowest and why I'm debating of having the 12 in wisdom (survival, perception, maybe animals). I also don't want my char being weak or dumb.
Spells: Could really use help on choosing spell for my char as well!
Multiclassing: Open to it if it's not too all over the place or complex. Also, I'd like to stay away from things like sorcerer or paladin, as they might be effective but make no sense RP in my case.
What are your suggestions/advice? (Please keep in mind I want to keep my character's theme for RP purposes.)
Where are you getting 4 attacks from as a valor bard?
Rapier would absolutely be a good back-up weapon. Shield has the drawback of taking an action to equip and remove, so switching between shield an bow would waste an action.
Casting a somatic component with a bow is no problem. Casting with a material component with a bow is a slight nuisance. As a bard, you need to pull out and play an instrument for a spellcasting focus. The problem is you only get 1 item interaction per turn without using an action or taking dual weilding feat. This could impede your battle magic feature. Sword and shield is worse, because you can't simply take 1 hand off the weapon (it is why most gish characters get war caster).
Change armor as needed. With +3 DEX mod, medium armor will still be better than light armor most of the time. At +4 DEX they are roughly equal. At +5, light armor will usually be superior to medium armor. But medium armor is more expensive and may disadvantage stealth.
There is an opportunity cost to all choices in this game. If you raise DEX, you have to wait to raise CHA. If you get a ranged feat, you have to wait to get a different feat or raise abilities.
Already mentioned opportunity costs. What you should pick depends on what you want the character to be good at. Feats make characters better at 1 thing, ASIs affect a lot of things.
Depends. You may want to take a few levels of fighter, ranger, or rogue for thematic or optimization reasons.
You can definitely afford to dump STR if you want. It only affects STR save, athletics skill, and carrying capacity. Having slightly low INT does not make the character dumb. A high CHA and average WIS will still leave you with a charming and insightful character.
As for spells: I recommend avoiding combat spells with a material component. Healing word is a go-to. As a magical archer, you may want to use magical secrets on a few ranger spells.
Is there something you'd recommend outside an archer bard that would fit my char's style (maybe some simple-type multiclass I mentioned in the OP or something else)? Also, is a ranged bard preferable to keep him safer due to lower defense/HP and for spell concentration?
Ability Scores: Cool so I'll probably take the STR10 DEX16 CON12 INT10 WIS12 CHA16 then. (I care about strength as I'd like to have decent athletics score and wisdom, again, for the skills) Although, I'm a bit worried regarding the CON - I've seen a lot of talk that it's important - for concentration I think?
So in order to avoid issues casting, I should equip just a sword if I'm not using ranged at the moment, not the shield? (and keep shield around just in case, but I'm not sure when I'd use it)
For armor, yeah I don't want penalties to stealth as I'd like my char to be able to sneak around in the wilderness camouflaged or hide places, so I guess the best option is breastplate and then lighter armor if I get a 20 DEX.
Feats/ASIs: So increasing attack stuff (DEX), i'll be sacrificing magic power (CHA)... hmmm.... so I'm going to talk about ASI/Feats here. From what I understand, the popular valor bard archer build is based on getting the Sharpshooter feat (and often-times Elven accuracy) plus Warcaster is quite popular - helps not lose concentration and can cast with weapons/shield in hand (from what I understand). I guess this means either 20 DEX/20 CHA and Sharpshooter or 18/20 20/18 (not sure which is preferable) and Sharpshooter, Warcaster or 19/18 and Sharpshooter, Warcaster, Elven accuracy.I'm too much of a n00b to know which is better and/or if there are better combos out there for what I'm trying to do.
I guess as I play I could do some things tentatively - see what I enjoy doing more in combat (attacks/spells/both) and decide the order to take the ASI's and Feats as I go. But what would generally be the preferred order? Sharpshooter ASAP, then boost CHA, then others?
Spells: I've read that a bard can't change his cantrips once selecting them, but that he can change up his spells each level - is this accurate? Can he change his spells from magical secrets? What are the most recommended cantrips and spells for this build? (I know if I go with valor bard archer, swift quiver is a must). As you said, I've heard that healing-word is quite key to get and the ranger spell is swift quiver if going ranged. What are examples of commonly good combat spells that require a material component?
Skills: I'm a huge fan of skills. I was thinking to take Athletics (I want to be a good swimmer/climber etc.), Stealth, Perception, Survival, Persuasion, Deception, and Acrobatics or Animal Handling(I want to be able to ride mounted at high levels without getting tossed). No sure what to waste my expertise on - the 2nd pair of skills comes at later levels so I could see what I use most as I go, but the 1st one is around the corner. I know having a boss CHA-based skill is a good idea, but I also wanted to boost my athletics, stealth, perception - not sure which to do.
Ah, I wasn't considering spells for attack number.
The Reddit link was insightful, as I havent seen anyone using a valor bard archer (I preffer lore bard and sword bard is pretty popular in my group).
Archer bard is fine, just a lot of your magic is going to be supplemental rather than primary.
I still say you can dump STR and INT. Jack of all trades will make up for the skill checks, and you can use an expertise on a skill to more than make up for it. Then you can focus on getting DEX or CHA 1 or 2 points higher.
I don't think this build will use a shield very often. You can still carry one just in case.
Skip
War caster will only help with somatic components and not affect your need to play an instrument at times, the concentration bonus is helpful, but resilient (CON) might be better. Sharpshooter is a must. Elven accuracy will be useful, and if you get starting CHA to 17, it can round it out.
I think your first 2 choices should be either ASI (or Elven accuracy if DEX or CHA is an odd number) and sharpshooter.
Only the artificer can change cantrips on level up. The bard can change magical secrets spells, but can't get higher level non-bard spells this way (has to get the next magical secrets). Cantrips I recommend for this are: mage hand very versatile, mending repair broken arrows, and vicious mockery bard exclusive and gives enemies disadvantage on attacks. Not many "combat" bard spells require material components luckily, but hideous laughter, heat metal, and hold person are good spells that do.
You will have decently high DEX and CHA, and Jack of all trades will boost skills you aren't proficient in. I suggest spliting your skill proficiencies (since you will have a few) between skills you already have a high ability in (DEX and CHA) that you want to be amazing at, and skills with lower abilities that you want to make up for. Other characters in party should be able to make up for your shortcomings.
Here I'll mention multiclass suggestions. I don't like to suggest any build that has the chance to get wish at a higher level lose that chance, bards have to get it with the level 18 magical secrets (which will only leave you with 2 levels to multiclass, but level 3 dip is a big power boost, so up to you). I suggest multiclassing to get the archery fighting style. Fighters can get it at level 1, if you go 3 levels fighter, the arcane archer or battle master subclass support your build pretty well. Rangers get fighting style at level 2 and require 13 WIS, but will get a few more spells, at 3rd level, the Gloomstalker will give you more stealth and ambush bonuses. Rogues don't get a fighting style (bummer), but will give you more skills, more expertise, sneak attack, and cunning action, at level 3, scout will give you free proficiency and expertise in nature and survival.
2. Not to be stubborn, but perhaps I'll dump or perhaps I'll keep them at 10s (would that **** anything up for me significantly?)
3. Shield: Having the proficiency, it makes sense to carry one anyway, as you said. It would give me more AC in situations where I want to melee and I can sheath my sword and cast with shield still equipped, or non-material spells if I have Warcaster.
4. Got it
5. So to just clarifyspells here (going a bit off topic, sorry) have 3 main types of components: Verbal (speaking), Somatic (hand motions), Material (stuff that gets destroyed when casting)... then there's Focus (the object used by diff classes to cast, holding which in one hand satisfies S+M). From what I understand, purely Verbal can be cast at anytime (except in silence or gagged), Somatic needs one hand, Material is just having a generic component bag on you unless it is a costly thing, and also needs one hand. Using a focus is kind of for flavor, but the point is that unlike clerics and other classes, a bard needs to hold a focus if he wants it to replace the S+M components, or he can use S and/or M components without it, which still require a free hand. (Off topic, but what if a character is bound, jailed, marooned, naked etc. - they can only cast V+S spells? [if hands are bound I guess V only?])?
In regards to all this, assuming my interpretation is correct, the Warcaster feat allows for Somatic gesturing while having weapons/shield equipped, so allowing you to cast any spells that don't req. the Material component. This still leaves the Material comp. issue for some popular combat spells like Hideous Laughter, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Fireball and so on.
Warcaster giving you advantage on concentration seem extremely useful, as well, for stuff like faerie fire, swift quiver, hideous laughter, heat metal etc. This is doubly true if going pure Bard and having that low(er) CON of 12...
Resilient adds 1 to CON (is it useful if CON is already an even number? and if I do late in the game?) and let's me add proficiency bonus... hmmm.. I don't know which one is better.
6. Feats/ASIs: So probably take Sharpshooter at lvl 4, and either use the rest as ASIs to get CHA and DEX to 20 or CHA 20 and DEX 18 plus 1 more feat (Warcaster, Resilient, Lucky). Lucky would be awesome to get advantage on the -5attack +10dmg rolls for sharpshooter, but warcaster/resilient are more important for casting. Elven accuracy is probably not worth it in comparison with the other options. So for order: Sharpshooter, then stat boosts until lvl 19, at which I do 2nd feat?
7. Skills: That does make sense - I might be foolish not boosting things like insight, especially if I'm using deception and want to check if someone is lying back to me, or Arcana as I'm a caster, or intimidation (I have a high enough check as it is, and RP my char is more friendly than intimidating). However, perhaps by your advice I'd take a proficiency in Animal Handling over Acrobatics, as the latter is already good and I'll have athletics as well. Expertise everyone says to do perception since it's huge for the game, but I'm quite into the others as well, so will have to see.
Multiclassing: If doing one, I'd rather stick to a level or two and not more, as I don't want to ****** my progression of bard for all the class gives, and def don't want to miss out on cool ass magic secrets! I've read that taking more than 1 lvl already really makes you lag behind, but I don't know. So either Ranger lvl 2, Paladin lvl 2 (I am not sure if I'm cool with this as don't know how I'd justify 2 levels of paladin with my backstory), or Fighter lvl 1 or lvl 2.
Fighter: If dipping conservatively, the only option is fighter lvl 1 - I've read about many people touting fighter for the CON saving throw.... are you sacrificing DEX/CHA saving throws to get that if you're doing lvl 1 fighter and how good/bad is that? Why is it significant? What other permanent effects are you gaining/sacrificing by not starting as a Bard? If MCing, should this dip be definitely the first level I take for the character? Also, what am I gaining from the lvl 1 in fighter... pretty much just the archery fighting style, essentially the +2 in attack?
A note on increasing my fighting capacity:
From these awesome replies, research, and getting more familiar with this stuff, I've noticed that these seem to be the options (besides sharpshooter feat) to make my character a better attacker, when he's not casting:
Taking the DEX ASI earlier on: 18 DEX at lvl 8, 18 CHA at lvl 12 etc.
Edit:This is probably done better with spells and not wasting a Feat - Taking the Lucky feat: advantage 3x a day, helps offset the -5 when doing +10 dmg shots with sharpshooter.
Have to figure out which are worth it in the context of still being a decent spellcaster... (many would say take CHA 18 at lvl4, then decide for lvl8 and 12 regarding sharpshooter and dex)
Have you considered Leomund's Tiny Hut as a prepared ritual for the start of combat?Outside creatures and objects can't pass through it, but ones inside when it's cast can, such as the arrows in your quiver. Other spells to note are Wall of Force, Hold Monster and Phantom Steed. It would also help to know what supplements you plan to use.
I'd recommend a one-handed instrument like a horn or even a component pouch. That way, you won't need to stow or drop your ranged weapon to cast spells that need material components.
Tiny hut takes a minute to cast, which is 10 rounds of combat. You can start before battle starts if you have enough warning, but in general this is not a reliable strategy.
2. Not to be stubborn, but perhaps I'll dump or perhaps I'll keep them at 10s (would that **** anything up for me significantly?)
3. Shield: Having the proficiency, it makes sense to carry one anyway, as you said. It would give me more AC in situations where I want to melee and I can sheath my sword and cast with shield still equipped, or non-material spells if I have Warcaster.
4. Got it
5. So to just clarifyspells here (going a bit off topic, sorry) have 3 main types of components: Verbal (speaking), Somatic (hand motions), Material (stuff that gets destroyed when casting)... then there's Focus (the object used by diff classes to cast, holding which in one hand satisfies S+M). From what I understand, purely Verbal can be cast at anytime (except in silence or gagged), Somatic needs one hand, Material is just having a generic component bag on you unless it is a costly thing, and also needs one hand. Using a focus is kind of for flavor, but the point is that unlike clerics and other classes, a bard needs to hold a focus if he wants it to replace the S+M components, or he can use S and/or M components without it, which still require a free hand. (Off topic, but what if a character is bound, jailed, marooned, naked etc. - they can only cast V+S spells? [if hands are bound I guess V only?])?
In regards to all this, assuming my interpretation is correct, the Warcaster feat allows for Somatic gesturing while having weapons/shield equipped, so allowing you to cast any spells that don't req. the Material component. This still leaves the Material comp. issue for some popular combat spells like Hideous Laughter, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Fireball and so on.
Warcaster giving you advantage on concentration seem extremely useful, as well, for stuff like faerie fire, swift quiver, hideous laughter, heat metal etc. This is doubly true if going pure Bard and having that low(er) CON of 12...
Resilient adds 1 to CON (is it useful if CON is already an even number? and if I do late in the game?) and let's me add proficiency bonus... hmmm.. I don't know which one is better.
6. Feats/ASIs: So probably take Sharpshooter at lvl 4, and either use the rest as ASIs to get CHA and DEX to 20 or CHA 20 and DEX 18 plus 1 more feat (Warcaster, Resilient, Lucky). Lucky would be awesome to get advantage on the -5attack +10dmg rolls for sharpshooter, but warcaster/resilient are more important for casting. Elven accuracy is probably not worth it in comparison with the other options. So for order: Sharpshooter, then stat boosts until lvl 19, at which I do 2nd feat?
7. Skills: That does make sense - I might be foolish not boosting things like insight, especially if I'm using deception and want to check if someone is lying back to me, or Arcana as I'm a caster, or intimidation (I have a high enough check as it is, and RP my char is more friendly than intimidating). However, perhaps by your advice I'd take a proficiency in Animal Handling over Acrobatics, as the latter is already good and I'll have athletics as well. Expertise everyone says to do perception since it's huge for the game, but I'm quite into the others as well, so will have to see.
Multiclassing: If doing one, I'd rather stick to a level or two and not more, as I don't want to ****** my progression of bard for all the class gives, and def don't want to miss out on cool ass magic secrets! I've read that taking more than 1 lvl already really makes you lag behind, but I don't know. So either Ranger lvl 2, Paladin lvl 2 (I am not sure if I'm cool with this as don't know how I'd justify 2 levels of paladin with my backstory), or Fighter lvl 1 or lvl 2.
Fighter: If dipping conservatively, the only option is fighter lvl 1 - I've read about many people touting fighter for the CON saving throw.... are you sacrificing DEX/CHA saving throws to get that if you're doing lvl 1 fighter and how good/bad is that? Why is it significant? What other permanent effects are you gaining/sacrificing by not starting as a Bard? If MCing, should this dip be definitely the first level I take for the character? Also, what am I gaining from the lvl 1 in fighter... pretty much just the archery fighting style, essentially the +2 in attack?
A note on increasing my fighting capacity:
From these awesome replies, research, and getting more familiar with this stuff, I've noticed that these seem to be the options (besides sharpshooter feat) to make my character a better attacker, when he's not casting:
Taking the DEX ASI earlier on: 18 DEX at lvl 8, 18 CHA at lvl 12 etc.
Edit:This is probably done better with spells and not wasting a Feat - Taking the Lucky feat: advantage 3x a day, helps offset the -5 when doing +10 dmg shots with sharpshooter.
Have to figure out which are worth it in the context of still being a decent spellcaster... (many would say take CHA 18 at lvl4, then decide for lvl8 and 12 regarding sharpshooter and dex)
To add to this discussion, in addition to the questions/ideas in my last reply to our thread, I wanted to ask what would be good progression choices (starting options, ASIs, Feats, Spells, MC dip etc.) for each of the 2 types of Valor Bard that we're discussing:
Valor Bard Archer that leans more toward spell power
Valor Bard Archer that want to get decent with bow+attacks
A reminder that I have never played bard, and have never seen a high level bard in action.
2. I test built with point buy and 10 15 (+1) 13 (+1) 8 12 14 (+2) seemed like a good split. Dumping INT lets you have 14 CON.
3. Nothing is stopping you from carrying a shield, but I don't think you will ever use it (can sell it if that is the case).
5. Your understanding of spells is more or less correct. You can perform somatic component with the same hand that is holding a material component. Spells that require a non-priced material component can use a focus to replace that component. You actually can't perform somatic with a hand holding a focus for spells that don't have material (another reason war caster is popular with full casters).
6. I don't think you will get much use out of war caster (essentially only using concentration advantage from it). You won't need resilient if you start fighter. Elven accuracy is not really worth it without spending more effort to get advantage. If you want to get 1 or 2 more feats (besides sharpshooter), lucky and prodigy might be worthwhile depending on what you are going for.
7. You will have 7 skill proficiencies, 4 of which will be expertise by level 11. I recommend proficiency in insight and persuasion, and expertise in stealth and perception. The rest is up to you. I don't think you will need arcana. Amd remember that every skill you don't have proficiency in will still get Jack of all trades bonus.
8. Starting 1 level fighter seems like a good plan. It will get you archery fighting style (+2 to hit), heavy armor proficiency (just in case), CON save proficiency, and you will have longbow proficiency early (in case starting at a low level).
9. You can still be a decent spellcaster even focusing on archery (swift quiver and/or conjure barrage kind of do both). Archery fighting style is about the only thing to go multiclass for archer. For a non-archer caster, 2 levels of hexblade warlock would make for a powerful spell slinger (hexblade is kind of broken).
Hey, sorry for late reply - but awesome answer and thank you for all the information man! , I've already played a session 1 with an interesting build. Now I'm optimizing for session 2 (we are playing 3 sessions then starting campaign, so we can relearn the rules/get back into DND and playtest characters), so I will make a thread trying a few diff builds/packages.
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Edit: doesn't need to be the combat star of the party - just a partial-support type as far as attacks.
I am just getting back into DND and it's my first time playing 5e. Please help me with my character build.
Basically, I want my character to be able to do some decent attacks in combat as well as cast spells, and I love skills and RP. By his backstory the character is almost certainly a skald type- he's very social with a genuine interest in the world, wanting to develop himself and inspire others, using the spoken word and song a lot. He's also from the North and good with wilderness stuff.
I imagine him being good at many skills and talking to others, casting utility and combat spells, buffing his teammates and also getting some attacks in while keeping himself away from the main brunt of the enemy - perhaps shooting arrows.
Would a Valor Bard Archer be a good way to have all this? I've seen many mention it as a great combat strategy, with 4 attacks later on, for this type of character and it would fit my guy RP-wise, as he stays away from the front line, but still gets to yell shit out, do some buffing of others, cast spells, but also have significant attacks.
Questions:
Ability Scores (char is half-elf):
Our DM is letting us use standard array or point-buy. So I was thinking of doing:
10 16(+1 incl.) 12 (+1 incl.) 10 12 16 (+2 incl.)
or
10 16(+1 incl.) 14(+1 incl.) 10 10 16(+2 incl.)
I hate negative modifiers and I'm really into skills, which is why the 10s being lowest and why I'm debating of having the 12 in wisdom (survival, perception, maybe animals). I also don't want my char being weak or dumb.
Could really use help on choosing spell for my char as well!
What are your suggestions/advice?
(Please keep in mind I want to keep my character's theme for RP purposes.)
Thank You so for any feedback!
Where are you getting 4 attacks from as a valor bard?
You can definitely afford to dump STR if you want. It only affects STR save, athletics skill, and carrying capacity. Having slightly low INT does not make the character dumb. A high CHA and average WIS will still leave you with a charming and insightful character.
As for spells: I recommend avoiding combat spells with a material component. Healing word is a go-to. As a magical archer, you may want to use magical secrets on a few ranger spells.
Thanks for the insightful reply!!
The 4 attacks - from what I've read like all over the internet, with swiftquiver and 2 attacks, you are doing 4 attacks, at higher levels, if you go valor bard archer.
As an example: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/7uh4po/how_to_build_and_effective_ranged_valor_bard/
I'll try to format my reply by topic:
Is there something you'd recommend outside an archer bard that would fit my char's style (maybe some simple-type multiclass I mentioned in the OP or something else)? Also, is a ranged bard preferable to keep him safer due to lower defense/HP and for spell concentration?
Ability Scores: Cool so I'll probably take the STR10 DEX16 CON12 INT10 WIS12 CHA16 then. (I care about strength as I'd like to have decent athletics score and wisdom, again, for the skills) Although, I'm a bit worried regarding the CON - I've seen a lot of talk that it's important - for concentration I think?
So in order to avoid issues casting, I should equip just a sword if I'm not using ranged at the moment, not the shield? (and keep shield around just in case, but I'm not sure when I'd use it)
For armor, yeah I don't want penalties to stealth as I'd like my char to be able to sneak around in the wilderness camouflaged or hide places, so I guess the best option is breastplate and then lighter armor if I get a 20 DEX.
Feats/ASIs: So increasing attack stuff (DEX), i'll be sacrificing magic power (CHA)... hmmm.... so I'm going to talk about ASI/Feats here. From what I understand, the popular valor bard archer build is based on getting the Sharpshooter feat (and often-times Elven accuracy) plus Warcaster is quite popular - helps not lose concentration and can cast with weapons/shield in hand (from what I understand). I guess this means either 20 DEX/20 CHA and Sharpshooter or 18/20 20/18 (not sure which is preferable) and Sharpshooter, Warcaster or 19/18 and Sharpshooter, Warcaster, Elven accuracy.I'm too much of a n00b to know which is better and/or if there are better combos out there for what I'm trying to do.
I guess as I play I could do some things tentatively - see what I enjoy doing more in combat (attacks/spells/both) and decide the order to take the ASI's and Feats as I go. But what would generally be the preferred order? Sharpshooter ASAP, then boost CHA, then others?
Spells: I've read that a bard can't change his cantrips once selecting them, but that he can change up his spells each level - is this accurate? Can he change his spells from magical secrets? What are the most recommended cantrips and spells for this build? (I know if I go with valor bard archer, swift quiver is a must). As you said, I've heard that healing-word is quite key to get and the ranger spell is swift quiver if going ranged. What are examples of commonly good combat spells that require a material component?
Skills: I'm a huge fan of skills. I was thinking to take Athletics (I want to be a good swimmer/climber etc.), Stealth, Perception, Survival, Persuasion, Deception, and Acrobatics or Animal Handling(I want to be able to ride mounted at high levels without getting tossed). No sure what to waste my expertise on - the 2nd pair of skills comes at later levels so I could see what I use most as I go, but the 1st one is around the corner. I know having a boss CHA-based skill is a good idea, but I also wanted to boost my athletics, stealth, perception - not sure which to do.
Ah, I wasn't considering spells for attack number.
The Reddit link was insightful, as I havent seen anyone using a valor bard archer (I preffer lore bard and sword bard is pretty popular in my group).
Here I'll mention multiclass suggestions. I don't like to suggest any build that has the chance to get wish at a higher level lose that chance, bards have to get it with the level 18 magical secrets (which will only leave you with 2 levels to multiclass, but level 3 dip is a big power boost, so up to you). I suggest multiclassing to get the archery fighting style. Fighters can get it at level 1, if you go 3 levels fighter, the arcane archer or battle master subclass support your build pretty well. Rangers get fighting style at level 2 and require 13 WIS, but will get a few more spells, at 3rd level, the Gloomstalker will give you more stealth and ambush bonuses. Rogues don't get a fighting style (bummer), but will give you more skills, more expertise, sneak attack, and cunning action, at level 3, scout will give you free proficiency and expertise in nature and survival.
1. Skip
2. Not to be stubborn, but perhaps I'll dump or perhaps I'll keep them at 10s (would that **** anything up for me significantly?)
3. Shield: Having the proficiency, it makes sense to carry one anyway, as you said. It would give me more AC in situations where I want to melee and I can sheath my sword and cast with shield still equipped, or non-material spells if I have Warcaster.
4. Got it
5. So to just clarify spells here (going a bit off topic, sorry) have 3 main types of components: Verbal (speaking), Somatic (hand motions), Material (stuff that gets destroyed when casting)... then there's Focus (the object used by diff classes to cast, holding which in one hand satisfies S+M). From what I understand, purely Verbal can be cast at anytime (except in silence or gagged), Somatic needs one hand, Material is just having a generic component bag on you unless it is a costly thing, and also needs one hand. Using a focus is kind of for flavor, but the point is that unlike clerics and other classes, a bard needs to hold a focus if he wants it to replace the S+M components, or he can use S and/or M components without it, which still require a free hand. (Off topic, but what if a character is bound, jailed, marooned, naked etc. - they can only cast V+S spells? [if hands are bound I guess V only?])?
In regards to all this, assuming my interpretation is correct, the Warcaster feat allows for Somatic gesturing while having weapons/shield equipped, so allowing you to cast any spells that don't req. the Material component. This still leaves the Material comp. issue for some popular combat spells like Hideous Laughter, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Fireball and so on.
Warcaster giving you advantage on concentration seem extremely useful, as well, for stuff like faerie fire, swift quiver, hideous laughter, heat metal etc. This is doubly true if going pure Bard and having that low(er) CON of 12...
Resilient adds 1 to CON (is it useful if CON is already an even number? and if I do late in the game?) and let's me add proficiency bonus... hmmm.. I don't know which one is better.
6. Feats/ASIs: So probably take Sharpshooter at lvl 4, and either use the rest as ASIs to get CHA and DEX to 20 or CHA 20 and DEX 18 plus 1 more feat (Warcaster, Resilient, Lucky). Lucky would be awesome to get advantage on the -5attack +10dmg rolls for sharpshooter, but warcaster/resilient are more important for casting. Elven accuracy is probably not worth it in comparison with the other options. So for order: Sharpshooter, then stat boosts until lvl 19, at which I do 2nd feat?
7. Skills: That does make sense - I might be foolish not boosting things like insight, especially if I'm using deception and want to check if someone is lying back to me, or Arcana as I'm a caster, or intimidation (I have a high enough check as it is, and RP my char is more friendly than intimidating). However, perhaps by your advice I'd take a proficiency in Animal Handling over Acrobatics, as the latter is already good and I'll have athletics as well. Expertise everyone says to do perception since it's huge for the game, but I'm quite into the others as well, so will have to see.
Multiclassing: If doing one, I'd rather stick to a level or two and not more, as I don't want to ****** my progression of bard for all the class gives, and def don't want to miss out on cool ass magic secrets! I've read that taking more than 1 lvl already really makes you lag behind, but I don't know. So either Ranger lvl 2, Paladin lvl 2 (I am not sure if I'm cool with this as don't know how I'd justify 2 levels of paladin with my backstory), or Fighter lvl 1 or lvl 2.
Fighter: If dipping conservatively, the only option is fighter lvl 1 - I've read about many people touting fighter for the CON saving throw.... are you sacrificing DEX/CHA saving throws to get that if you're doing lvl 1 fighter and how good/bad is that? Why is it significant? What other permanent effects are you gaining/sacrificing by not starting as a Bard? If MCing, should this dip be definitely the first level I take for the character? Also, what am I gaining from the lvl 1 in fighter... pretty much just the archery fighting style, essentially the +2 in attack?
A note on increasing my fighting capacity:
From these awesome replies, research, and getting more familiar with this stuff, I've noticed that these seem to be the options (besides sharpshooter feat) to make my character a better attacker, when he's not casting:
Have to figure out which are worth it in the context of still being a decent spellcaster... (many would say take CHA 18 at lvl4, then decide for lvl8 and 12 regarding sharpshooter and dex)
Have you considered Leomund's Tiny Hut as a prepared ritual for the start of combat?Outside creatures and objects can't pass through it, but ones inside when it's cast can, such as the arrows in your quiver. Other spells to note are Wall of Force, Hold Monster and Phantom Steed. It would also help to know what supplements you plan to use.
I'd recommend a one-handed instrument like a horn or even a component pouch. That way, you won't need to stow or drop your ranged weapon to cast spells that need material components.
Tiny hut takes a minute to cast, which is 10 rounds of combat. You can start before battle starts if you have enough warning, but in general this is not a reliable strategy.
To add to this discussion, in addition to the questions/ideas in my last reply to our thread, I wanted to ask what would be good progression choices (starting options, ASIs, Feats, Spells, MC dip etc.) for each of the 2 types of Valor Bard that we're discussing:
Valor Bard Archer that leans more toward spell power
Valor Bard Archer that want to get decent with bow+attacks
A reminder that I have never played bard, and have never seen a high level bard in action.
2. I test built with point buy and 10 15 (+1) 13 (+1) 8 12 14 (+2) seemed like a good split. Dumping INT lets you have 14 CON.
3. Nothing is stopping you from carrying a shield, but I don't think you will ever use it (can sell it if that is the case).
5. Your understanding of spells is more or less correct. You can perform somatic component with the same hand that is holding a material component. Spells that require a non-priced material component can use a focus to replace that component. You actually can't perform somatic with a hand holding a focus for spells that don't have material (another reason war caster is popular with full casters).
6. I don't think you will get much use out of war caster (essentially only using concentration advantage from it). You won't need resilient if you start fighter. Elven accuracy is not really worth it without spending more effort to get advantage. If you want to get 1 or 2 more feats (besides sharpshooter), lucky and prodigy might be worthwhile depending on what you are going for.
7. You will have 7 skill proficiencies, 4 of which will be expertise by level 11. I recommend proficiency in insight and persuasion, and expertise in stealth and perception. The rest is up to you. I don't think you will need arcana. Amd remember that every skill you don't have proficiency in will still get Jack of all trades bonus.
8. Starting 1 level fighter seems like a good plan. It will get you archery fighting style (+2 to hit), heavy armor proficiency (just in case), CON save proficiency, and you will have longbow proficiency early (in case starting at a low level).
9. You can still be a decent spellcaster even focusing on archery (swift quiver and/or conjure barrage kind of do both). Archery fighting style is about the only thing to go multiclass for archer. For a non-archer caster, 2 levels of hexblade warlock would make for a powerful spell slinger (hexblade is kind of broken).
Hey, sorry for late reply - but awesome answer and thank you for all the information man! , I've already played a session 1 with an interesting build. Now I'm optimizing for session 2 (we are playing 3 sessions then starting campaign, so we can relearn the rules/get back into DND and playtest characters), so I will make a thread trying a few diff builds/packages.