So yeah, if you dedicate to skills you don't get em all until level 7 and you rule out almost any high end abilities. Seems a fair trade.
I wasn't going to get into the best way to get all the skills because that was not the subject of the thread, but here I go.
Background (2), Half elf (2) Rogue 3 scout (7), bard 3 lore (4), at 4th level in either class take skilled (3), that is all 18 by level 7 and only multiclassed into 2 classes. You can even still get level 9 spell slots by level 20. As a bard, you mostly play support in combat, but can take the occasional sneak attack pot shot from hiding.
So yeah, if you dedicate to skills you don't get em all until level 7 and you rule out almost any high end abilities. Seems a fair trade.
I think I'd go rogue 11, artificer 6, bard 3 if I were investing that heavily. Variant human with skilled as the bonus feat is 10 at first level and adds 4 from bard. I can give up proficiencies in medicine, perform, animal handling, and acrobatics. Those would still benefit from jack-of-all-trades.
That gives reliable talent, proficiency in most skills, expertise in 6 skills, expertise in all tools (inçluding musical instruments), and 6th level caster progression for some spell support like enhance ability.
Might have some growing pains but I think I could make that work if I wanted to really skill monkey it up.
EDIT: After toying with it, arcane trickster gets the total spell level up to a ninth level caster but the artificer part doesn't come online unless were playing epic so that part's novelty at that point.
Those slots are for first and second level spells. 8 known from rogue, 6 known from bard, and 8+ prepped from artificer. Plus 8 cantrips and some ritual casting. Add 6 infusions known and 3 available.
The damage comes from booming blade / green-flame blade, and artificer adds medium armor and shield.
I think I could have a lot of fun with this in a game starting at high levels.
Hat off to both of you finding a more functional path. :-)
I was bringing it up more to point out what you could give up. Even my wonky path leaves you with a full powered Eldritch Blast for combat.
I ending up keeping animal handling and giving up intimidation proficiency in my practice builds, and arcane trickster added quite a bit to increasing spell slots. It comes online a bit late going beyond the standard rogue skill monkey part.
Seem to be over-stating what "skill monkey" classes get.
Not really. Rogue gain twice the amount of proficiences that other classes get and lore bard (probably the truest skillmonkey of them all) get three times as many. Add to that the fact that both bards and rogue tend to have abilities that overlap well with many skills and you can easily have a character that isn't really bad at any skill.
That said, the fact that the so-called skill monkey classes don't have proficiency in every single skill or that they don't have that many more proficiencies than other classes doesn't change anything I said. Yes, skillmonkeys are gonna skillmonk. Yes, they can still be good in combat. No, it's seldom a problem for the group as whole. :)
Two times a small number is still a small number. That's like saying 20 km/h is fast because it's twice the speed limit posted in a trailer park. Or needing an 19 on a d20 is twice as good as needing a 20 when the difference is a 5% successes rate. It's also not an accurate representation because it's ignoring the background skills all characters have, which means the baseline for a rogue character is 50% more than the baseline for most characters. This calling it twice as much is statistical gymnastics trying to make it look better. ;)
Like the d20 example above, the way to make a more accurate representation is portion of the total. Number of skills in a class is only a tiny portion of the 18 listed skills available. It's basically 4/18, 5/18, or 6/18 although some of those 18 are obviously less relevant than others. 22% vs 28% vs 33% on the surface; 33%, 42%, 50% is more reasonable after removing a lot of unpopular options.
The rogue class is worth 2 skills. That's the same as the half-elf race or warlock invocation, and less than the skilled feat. That's still not examining 5e's system in the bigger picture. 5e deliberately increased the value of the ability score modifiers to be similar to the bonuses for the ability checks so that the ability scores would be more relevant. For example, proficiency in 4 WIS skills is similar to +5 bonus for a 20 CHA. The bounded accuracy DC's are based on that premise.
DC 10 = no bonus
DC 15 = high ability score or proficiency, or a smaller combination of both
DC 20 = both a high ability score and proficiency
That's why those are the three most common DC's and the reason the DMG points to them being the only three needed to run the game.
What that means for the character is that having one or two more skill proficiencies isn't any better than having a primary ability score in a proficiency group that uses a lot of checks. What makes a rogue good for skills is not the two extra proficiencies the class gives. It's the low roll protection that reliable talent gives and using expertise with a proficiency in which the rogue does not have a good ability score modifier so that the DC 20 checks are reliable. Consistently hitting common DC's is the way to go in 5e.
Which leads to another point people commonly miss when it comes to checks: only roll if the outcome is in doubt. Combat and risk create the need to roll. Opposed check created the need for a roll. Outside of combat also leaves the rule from the DMG that additions rolls are allowed so it saves time by simply taking extra time and not rolling in that case either. The character will automatically succeed if it's possible for the character to make the check and has time to do so.
For example, anyone with a 16 DEX and proficiency with thieves' tools at first level can open any lock with a DC 25 or less without the need to roll if they have the time.
When 20 is the standard DC for hard and typically the upper limit that anyone can make in those checks with a 0 bonus to the roll. It's only those checks with inherent danger, during combat, or opposed checks that usually matter.
That's just 5e's design to be inclusive for all characters regardless of skill proficiencies in the check system. "Skill monkey" just isn't what it was. That way to make use of skills is to leverage class abilities, and the number of proficiencies is minor.
Again, not really sure what point you are trying to make. Yes, you can get more skills from races and feats but that goes for rogues and bards as well. A variant human bard kan have ten proficiencies at first level and guess what, that's still more than a non-rogue. And critting on a 19 and 20 is quite literally a 100% increase in probability.
I'm not really interested in "examining 5e's system in the bigger picture" or over-analyzing the DC system in general. I was more interested in answering the OP's question and that is what I did. Or, to put it very simply, yes there are skill monkeys in this game, no they are seldom a problem.
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There are 18 skills not counting tools.
1/2 rogue gets 8 at level 1.
Knowledge Cleric 1 at 2nd nets two more.
Warlock 1-2 at 3rd and 4th adds 2 more (12)
Dive into More Bard 3 by 7th and get 4 more (16)
So yeah, if you dedicate to skills you don't get em all until level 7 and you rule out almost any high end abilities. Seems a fair trade.
I wasn't going to get into the best way to get all the skills because that was not the subject of the thread, but here I go.
Background (2), Half elf (2) Rogue 3 scout (7), bard 3 lore (4), at 4th level in either class take skilled (3), that is all 18 by level 7 and only multiclassed into 2 classes. You can even still get level 9 spell slots by level 20. As a bard, you mostly play support in combat, but can take the occasional sneak attack pot shot from hiding.
I think I'd go rogue 11, artificer 6, bard 3 if I were investing that heavily. Variant human with skilled as the bonus feat is 10 at first level and adds 4 from bard. I can give up proficiencies in medicine, perform, animal handling, and acrobatics. Those would still benefit from jack-of-all-trades.
That gives reliable talent, proficiency in most skills, expertise in 6 skills, expertise in all tools (inçluding musical instruments), and 6th level caster progression for some spell support like enhance ability.
Might have some growing pains but I think I could make that work if I wanted to really skill monkey it up.
EDIT: After toying with it, arcane trickster gets the total spell level up to a ninth level caster but the artificer part doesn't come online unless were playing epic so that part's novelty at that point.
Those slots are for first and second level spells. 8 known from rogue, 6 known from bard, and 8+ prepped from artificer. Plus 8 cantrips and some ritual casting. Add 6 infusions known and 3 available.
The damage comes from booming blade / green-flame blade, and artificer adds medium armor and shield.
I think I could have a lot of fun with this in a game starting at high levels.
Hat off to both of you finding a more functional path. :-)
I was bringing it up more to point out what you could give up. Even my wonky path leaves you with a full powered Eldritch Blast for combat.
I ending up keeping animal handling and giving up intimidation proficiency in my practice builds, and arcane trickster added quite a bit to increasing spell slots. It comes online a bit late going beyond the standard rogue skill monkey part.
Again, not really sure what point you are trying to make. Yes, you can get more skills from races and feats but that goes for rogues and bards as well. A variant human bard kan have ten proficiencies at first level and guess what, that's still more than a non-rogue. And critting on a 19 and 20 is quite literally a 100% increase in probability.
I'm not really interested in "examining 5e's system in the bigger picture" or over-analyzing the DC system in general. I was more interested in answering the OP's question and that is what I did. Or, to put it very simply, yes there are skill monkeys in this game, no they are seldom a problem.