"Europe" is not a nation. "Native American" is not a nation. Neither are they races. "Native American" encompasses all of the varieties of people from the farthest north to the tip of South America that were considered indigenous before Europeans arrived. "European" includes all of the varieties of people on the entire European continent. Both groups have lineage that can be traced all over the world. You're broadstroking the term "race" to mean something it doesn't.
I never said Europe was a nation, stop pulling strawman. Native Americans were not a nation, but they did have nations (Incan, Mayan, Aztec, and others), and the extermination of the natives was clearly a racist war. You're ignoring/excusing racism, so I suggest you stop doing that before you're booted from the thread. But, any historian will tell you that racism fueled the extermination of the natives of the Americas. And of course I'm broadstroking! I'm not going to list every single Native American nation or tribe that existed when the Spanish Conquistadors and other colonizers came to the Americas.
Stop dodging questions and using bad-faith arguments, please.
Were there racists and racist sentiments involved in the conflicts between European settlers and Native American tribes? Without question. Was racism the primary motivator for those conflicts? Almost assuredly not. The Americas were resource-rich and that's the main reason Europe started colonizing it in the first place. "These people are just savages" is a rationalization for taking their resources by force, and I guarantee similar sentiments were passed between the English and the French during their wars. The purpose of a war and its justifications are not the same thing.
So, if a white man murders a rich black man to steal their money and then says that it's okay because he thinks they're savages, the man's main motive for doing the crime was not their race? Even if they wouldn't have done the same thing to the same person if they were white? That logic seems quite flawed. It's so flawed that it's disgusting.
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It's between orcs and humans. And most fantasy makes this biological: orcs are just naturally predisposed to go around ****** and pillaging poor, innocent human villages, which, again, is a line of thinking that has literally been used to justify the American slave state and subsequent injustice.
I'm certain that none of the Southern slave plantation owners read Tolkien
I'm certain that you're missing the point. The point isn't that one caused the other, as correlation does not equal causation, but that they mirror each other. The language used in the Monster Manual and PHB as well as Tolkein's works echo the language used by white supremacists and slave owners.
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You're ignoring/excusing racism, so I suggest you stop doing that before you're booted from the thread.
As I mentioned a moment ago. Constantly comparing real world racism to anything in a fantasy game will get the thread locked - in which case, we are all booted from the thread.
The English and French were fighting over control of each other, not the extermination people and colonization of their land. Are you seriously suggesting that the mass killing of hundreds of millions of Native Americans was not racist? It is very clear that it is not racist to go to war with any other country, but if a nation does a war against another country because of their race (like the European Colonizers against the American Natives), that is definitely racist. I know what racism is, I don't need you to mansplain that to me.
I very much beg to differ (I studied this). There is about 2% of English culture that is actually English. In 1066, when the Normans invaded, they eradicated every single aspect of the Anglo Saxon culture that they could. We seem like the same 'race' because We are. We are all french. In that case, was the war not racist? Or do you have to have different skin tones to be racist? If you discriminate against someone with a tan, is it racist? Different races are people who originate from different countries, not just people of different skin tones. The colonists wanted land, and the Native Americans stood in their way. You really think that if the people were white it would have been different? And even if it WAS racist, if it was whites vs whites, would that have made it any less horrific? Are you are saying it matters if white people kill POC, but not if they kill whites or POC kill POC? I think the big thing that made the colonist's war so bad was that the colonists had FAR superior weapons, so the fight was completely one sided. It was a massacre, but it was no more racist than if the English had done it to the French. I hope you understand what I am saying here...
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
I can prove that IRL events/stories and D&D have some purposefully overlapping lore/elements. Mielikki is a deity from the real world and Forgotten Realms. The Disks of Mishikal from Dragonlance are based off of an aspect from the Mormon church (the Golden Plates), as Tracy Hickman is a member of the Mormon church. The Dhaakani Empire of Eberron and Orcs are fairly obviously based off of Native Americans, as they had their own nations and culture, and then the people from a continent to the east came and conquered them all and stole their land. Tiamat and Bahamut are both Middle-Eastern deities. There are a lot of other aspects of lore from different D&D worlds based off of real world events/peoples/mythologies. Also, even unintentionally basing an aspect of a setting you are making/developing is bound to happen, as the only settings you have to base your setting off of is the real world (or another setting, which also will have aspects unintentionally based off of the real world). Even if there was a part of a D&D setting was unintentionally racist, that's still racist.
And, about the war between Europeans and Native Americans, the reason that was racist and not the ones between the English and the French, is because they're the same race, but from different countries. That's what I said in this post, the colonizers and conquistadors were trying to exterminate a race, while the English and French were just trying to beat each other in war in order to conquer the others, not wipe them off of the planet.
It's fine for a nation of humans and a nation of orcs to be at war, or a nation of elves and goblins being at war with each other. But, if its the whole races being at war with each other, that is fine in rare occasions, but if it is every race being a caricature that is at war with other full races, that is not realistic.
(Just trying to explain my viewpoint. Again, I mean no offense.)
Inspiration has to come from somewhere. In the fantasy genre, there is very little that exists that has not borrowed from other ideas, or real life inspiration.
Take Star Trek. Star Trek is very obviously based on the real life adventures of Captain Cook, and his discoveries in Australia, Hawaii, the polynesian Islands and the Frozen North. To say its not, one would have to be completely blind. Especially since even the vessels they sailed on share the same names. Captain Cook/Captain Kirk. He traveled with a medical doctor, among other scientists. He Cook boldly sailed to places yet unkown and encountered many cultures/tribes who were as foreign to him as the aliens that Kirk encountered. One of the most popular Sci Fi series of all times, is a complete rip off of a real live adventurer. I have no issue with that. Its a clever retelling of an old story that many arent even that familiar with.
Our popular westerns are clear ripoffs of popular Asain hero stories...again many of them even share the same names.
Just because the stories are the inspiration, it does not mean the stories actually represent the history correctly, nor are they trying too. They are just the inspiration.
Vikings are traditionally portrayed as brainless brutes who live to pillage and destroy. No one really takes up an argument to come to their defense. Celtics are typically portrayed as barbaric, superstitious and half mad. Almost unhuman. Still to this day in shows that are common on Netflix portray them this way. So its ok on Netflix...but not in D&D?
I never said Europe was a nation, stop pulling strawman. Native Americans were not a nation, but they did have nations (Incan, Mayan, Aztec, and others), and the extermination of the natives was clearly a racist war. You're ignoring/excusing racism, so I suggest you stop doing that before you're booted from the thread. But, any historian will tell you that racism fueled the extermination of the natives of the Americas. And of course I'm broadstroking! I'm not going to list every single Native American nation or tribe that existed when the Spanish Conquistadors and other colonizers came to the Americas.
Stop dodging questions and using bad-faith arguments, please.
So, if a white man murders a rich black man to steal their money and then says that it's okay because he thinks they're savages, the man's main motive for doing the crime was not their race? Even if they wouldn't have done the same thing to the same person if they were white? That logic seems quite flawed. It's so flawed that it's disgusting.
You did. Quote, "but if a nation does a war against another country because of their race (like the European Colonizers against the American Natives), that is definitely racist."
Any historian would also tell you that expansionist and resource-claiming agendas contributed to the extermination too. I never said racism wasn't involved, I said it wasn't the primary motivation.
As for your last (textbook strawman) example, if by your own words the white man murdered a rich black man "to steal their money" then his main motive was to steal money. You didn't say "He murdered him because of his race." You answered your own question there, then threw in the "wouldn't have done the same if they were white" even though it's completely incongruous with every other example we've talked about so far. England and France definitely tried to murder each other, and they're what you would likely consider "white." If you had kept your counterexample to the original hypothetical and the murderer was after money but was also racist, his primary motivation would still be the money, he would just also have reprehensible character traits to go along with being a murderer. No one is excusing racism, just defining what it is, and drawing a distinction between a war's aim and a war's justification.
As I mentioned a moment ago. Constantly comparing real world racism to anything in a fantasy game will get the thread locked - in which case, we are all booted from the thread.
What else do we have to compare it to? If we can't use examples from our real world, what else can we compare fantasy racism to?
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As I mentioned a moment ago. Constantly comparing real world racism to anything in a fantasy game will get the thread locked - in which case, we are all booted from the thread.
What else do we have to compare it to? If we can't use examples from our real world, what else can we compare fantasy racism to?
Inspiration has to come from somewhere. In the fantasy genre, there is very little that exists that has not borrowed from other ideas, or real life inspiration.
Take Star Trek. Star Trek is very obviously based on the real life adventures of Captain Cook, and his discoveries in Australia, Hawaii, the polynesian Islands and the Frozen North. To say its not, one would have to be completely blind. Especially since even the vessels they sailed on share the same names. Captain Cook/Captain Kirk. He traveled with a medical doctor, among other scientists. He Cook boldly sailed to places yet unkown and encountered many cultures/tribes who were as foreign to him as the aliens that Kirk encountered. One of the most popular Sci Fi series of all times, is a complete rip off of a real live adventurer. I have no issue with that. Its a clever retelling of an old story that many arent even that familiar with.
Our popular westerns are clear ripoffs of popular Asain hero stories...again many of them even share the same names.
Just because the stories are the inspiration, it does not mean the stories actually represent the history correctly, nor are they trying too. They are just the inspiration.
Vikings are traditionally portrayed as brainless brutes who live to pillage and destroy. No one really takes up an argument to come to their defense. Celtics are typically portrayed as barbaric, superstitious and half mad. Almost unhuman. Still to this day in shows that are common on Netflix portray them this way. So its ok on Netflix...but not in D&D?
Yes, inspiration has to come from somewhere, and the origin of all that inspired all fantasy and fiction was the real world. That was the point of my post. I was not saying that it is wrong to take inspiration from the real world, as that is all that we have to take inspiration from and I am guilty of this as well for my own worlds, but I was merely proving that it is not a "wild connection" to compare how Orcs and Goblinoids are depicted and described to how BIPOC have been described by white supremacists and colonizers in the past.
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As I mentioned a moment ago. Constantly comparing real world racism to anything in a fantasy game will get the thread locked - in which case, we are all booted from the thread.
What else do we have to compare it to? If we can't use examples from our real world, what else can we compare fantasy racism to?
Sci-FI racism? I agree with you btw
And sci-fi racism was based off of real world racism, so even if you were to compare the orcs of the Forgotten Realms or goblinoids of Eberron to the klingons of Star Trek or Gungans of Star Wars, its original source would be from the real world.
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The problem with Forgotten Realms (and most fantasy settings) is that it's not about "society." It's about "race." The war is not between Stormwind and Orgrimmar. It's between orcs and humans. And most fantasy makes this biological: orcs are just naturally predisposed to go around ****** and pillaging poor, innocent human villages, ...
Since you mention WoW, I feel I need to point out that WoW Orcs were - canonically - peaceful until corrupted by Sargeras’ Burning Legion. Tolkien’s Orcs were also (according to most if the prevailing theories anyway) created through the corruption (a much more thorough and physical corruption to boot) of otherwise peaceful races/species. Dragonlance’s Draconians? Created using dark magic literally called the Corruption Ritual.
There’s absolutely nothing natural about these species’ violent predispositions. There’s plenty of evidence that most fantasy implies something completely different from what you’re suggesting, namely that violent tendencies in large humanoid societies are typically not biological but deliberately created through magic or indoctrination.
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As I mentioned a moment ago. Constantly comparing real world racism to anything in a fantasy game will get the thread locked - in which case, we are all booted from the thread.
What else do we have to compare it to? If we can't use examples from our real world, what else can we compare fantasy racism to?
It's a comparison that breaks down very quickly, thus, it doesn't have a lot of value (to me of course). It will end up going nowhere, as almost any thread of comparison has done that was between something in the real world and something in a fantasy game. The going nowhere ends up in a locked thread.
The comparison breaks down because one has very serious and damaging implications and effects. That's what happens in the real world. That's not the case in a game. That's why there's actual war and there's Call of Duty. The game doesn't glorify or condone the real world thing. The game can show it. You can take part in it with no harm done. I dare not say you can be entertained by it, but..as much as watching Saving Private Ryan wasn't enjoyable, it was an experience that I'd go through again and again, cheering how well done it was - yet the subject matter was horrible, as was American History X, and so on. That can be done in a movie because..it's a movie.
The same is said for the presence of, use of, or acknowledgement of, racism in D&D. In the real world, once seen or even hinted at, something should be done to stop it. The same should not be said for a fantasy tabletop roleplaying game. Once you compare it, you have to start thinking through taking a stance on it comparable to the other. This is horrible thinking.
I really like how Christopher Paolini portrays the Urgals in Eragon. They are just warlike by nature. Some races may just be natural murderhobo stereotypes (last bit was a joke)
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Relating this to fantasy worlds, these are typically civilizations that have lasted at least a couple thousand years.
THIS right here is why many of these threads devolve. Stop doing that.
What, relating what I just said back to D&D? <checks OP and thread title, notes this is the D&D Beyond site rather than a 'discuss history independent of any other context' site> Nah, I think I'll keep relating my posts back to D&D, thanks.
I really like how Christopher Paolini portrays the Urgals in Eragon. They are just warlike by nature. Some races may just be natural murderhobo stereotypes (last bit was a joke)
By nature? They have an entire culture that revolves around it.
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I really like how Christopher Paolini portrays the Urgals in Eragon. They are just warlike by nature. Some races may just be natural murderhobo stereotypes (last bit was a joke)
By nature? They have an entire culture that revolves around it.
but it didn't just become warlike. They were apparently 'made' to be warriors by their god....
Guys, after a deep 30s of thought, I think this thread is gonna end up the same as all of its older brethren....locked, and I have decided I don't want to be part of that reason.
Peace!
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
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I never said Europe was a nation, stop pulling strawman. Native Americans were not a nation, but they did have nations (Incan, Mayan, Aztec, and others), and the extermination of the natives was clearly a racist war. You're ignoring/excusing racism, so I suggest you stop doing that before you're booted from the thread. But, any historian will tell you that racism fueled the extermination of the natives of the Americas. And of course I'm broadstroking! I'm not going to list every single Native American nation or tribe that existed when the Spanish Conquistadors and other colonizers came to the Americas.
Stop dodging questions and using bad-faith arguments, please.
So, if a white man murders a rich black man to steal their money and then says that it's okay because he thinks they're savages, the man's main motive for doing the crime was not their race? Even if they wouldn't have done the same thing to the same person if they were white? That logic seems quite flawed. It's so flawed that it's disgusting.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I'm certain that you're missing the point. The point isn't that one caused the other, as correlation does not equal causation, but that they mirror each other. The language used in the Monster Manual and PHB as well as Tolkein's works echo the language used by white supremacists and slave owners.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
As I mentioned a moment ago. Constantly comparing real world racism to anything in a fantasy game will get the thread locked - in which case, we are all booted from the thread.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
I very much beg to differ (I studied this). There is about 2% of English culture that is actually English. In 1066, when the Normans invaded, they eradicated every single aspect of the Anglo Saxon culture that they could. We seem like the same 'race' because We are. We are all french. In that case, was the war not racist? Or do you have to have different skin tones to be racist? If you discriminate against someone with a tan, is it racist? Different races are people who originate from different countries, not just people of different skin tones. The colonists wanted land, and the Native Americans stood in their way. You really think that if the people were white it would have been different? And even if it WAS racist, if it was whites vs whites, would that have made it any less horrific? Are you are saying it matters if white people kill POC, but not if they kill whites or POC kill POC? I think the big thing that made the colonist's war so bad was that the colonists had FAR superior weapons, so the fight was completely one sided. It was a massacre, but it was no more racist than if the English had done it to the French. I hope you understand what I am saying here...
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Inspiration has to come from somewhere. In the fantasy genre, there is very little that exists that has not borrowed from other ideas, or real life inspiration.
Take Star Trek. Star Trek is very obviously based on the real life adventures of Captain Cook, and his discoveries in Australia, Hawaii, the polynesian Islands and the Frozen North. To say its not, one would have to be completely blind. Especially since even the vessels they sailed on share the same names. Captain Cook/Captain Kirk. He traveled with a medical doctor, among other scientists. He Cook boldly sailed to places yet unkown and encountered many cultures/tribes who were as foreign to him as the aliens that Kirk encountered. One of the most popular Sci Fi series of all times, is a complete rip off of a real live adventurer. I have no issue with that. Its a clever retelling of an old story that many arent even that familiar with.
Our popular westerns are clear ripoffs of popular Asain hero stories...again many of them even share the same names.
Just because the stories are the inspiration, it does not mean the stories actually represent the history correctly, nor are they trying too. They are just the inspiration.
Vikings are traditionally portrayed as brainless brutes who live to pillage and destroy. No one really takes up an argument to come to their defense. Celtics are typically portrayed as barbaric, superstitious and half mad. Almost unhuman. Still to this day in shows that are common on Netflix portray them this way. So its ok on Netflix...but not in D&D?
You did. Quote, "but if a nation does a war against another country because of their race (like the European Colonizers against the American Natives), that is definitely racist."
Any historian would also tell you that expansionist and resource-claiming agendas contributed to the extermination too. I never said racism wasn't involved, I said it wasn't the primary motivation.
As for your last (textbook strawman) example, if by your own words the white man murdered a rich black man "to steal their money" then his main motive was to steal money. You didn't say "He murdered him because of his race." You answered your own question there, then threw in the "wouldn't have done the same if they were white" even though it's completely incongruous with every other example we've talked about so far. England and France definitely tried to murder each other, and they're what you would likely consider "white." If you had kept your counterexample to the original hypothetical and the murderer was after money but was also racist, his primary motivation would still be the money, he would just also have reprehensible character traits to go along with being a murderer. No one is excusing racism, just defining what it is, and drawing a distinction between a war's aim and a war's justification.
What else do we have to compare it to? If we can't use examples from our real world, what else can we compare fantasy racism to?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Sci-FI racism? I agree with you btw
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Yes, inspiration has to come from somewhere, and the origin of all that inspired all fantasy and fiction was the real world. That was the point of my post. I was not saying that it is wrong to take inspiration from the real world, as that is all that we have to take inspiration from and I am guilty of this as well for my own worlds, but I was merely proving that it is not a "wild connection" to compare how Orcs and Goblinoids are depicted and described to how BIPOC have been described by white supremacists and colonizers in the past.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
(@Third_Sundering, did you see my earlier post? I described my opinion on what you said earlier of you are interested)
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
And sci-fi racism was based off of real world racism, so even if you were to compare the orcs of the Forgotten Realms or goblinoids of Eberron to the klingons of Star Trek or Gungans of Star Wars, its original source would be from the real world.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Getting to that, there's a lot of posts.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Ik, dont worry about it lol :)
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Since you mention WoW, I feel I need to point out that WoW Orcs were - canonically - peaceful until corrupted by Sargeras’ Burning Legion. Tolkien’s Orcs were also (according to most if the prevailing theories anyway) created through the corruption (a much more thorough and physical corruption to boot) of otherwise peaceful races/species. Dragonlance’s Draconians? Created using dark magic literally called the Corruption Ritual.
There’s absolutely nothing natural about these species’ violent predispositions. There’s plenty of evidence that most fantasy implies something completely different from what you’re suggesting, namely that violent tendencies in large humanoid societies are typically not biological but deliberately created through magic or indoctrination.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
It's a comparison that breaks down very quickly, thus, it doesn't have a lot of value (to me of course). It will end up going nowhere, as almost any thread of comparison has done that was between something in the real world and something in a fantasy game. The going nowhere ends up in a locked thread.
The comparison breaks down because one has very serious and damaging implications and effects. That's what happens in the real world. That's not the case in a game. That's why there's actual war and there's Call of Duty. The game doesn't glorify or condone the real world thing. The game can show it. You can take part in it with no harm done. I dare not say you can be entertained by it, but..as much as watching Saving Private Ryan wasn't enjoyable, it was an experience that I'd go through again and again, cheering how well done it was - yet the subject matter was horrible, as was American History X, and so on. That can be done in a movie because..it's a movie.
The same is said for the presence of, use of, or acknowledgement of, racism in D&D. In the real world, once seen or even hinted at, something should be done to stop it. The same should not be said for a fantasy tabletop roleplaying game. Once you compare it, you have to start thinking through taking a stance on it comparable to the other. This is horrible thinking.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
I really like how Christopher Paolini portrays the Urgals in Eragon. They are just warlike by nature. Some races may just be natural murderhobo stereotypes (last bit was a joke)
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
welcome.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
By nature? They have an entire culture that revolves around it.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
but it didn't just become warlike. They were apparently 'made' to be warriors by their god....
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Guys, after a deep 30s of thought, I think this thread is gonna end up the same as all of its older brethren....locked, and I have decided I don't want to be part of that reason.
Peace!
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.