I am just wondering if i was to use echo knight and say one level or 2 levels of cleric so that i could get the death domain could i use my echo to use inflict wounds or would it be better to take a 3 level dip in fighter and the rest cleric and get as high as i can in cleric with inflict wounds as long as i can use the echo to do my damages
The echo cannot use inflict wounds. All of the echo abilities center around the knight taking the attack action. Casting inflict wounds requires a [Tooltip Not Found] action. Therefore, the knight cannot cast inflict wounds through the echo.
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The echo cannot use inflict wounds. All of the echo abilities center around the knight taking the attack action. Casting inflict wounds requires a cast a spell action. Therefore, the knight cannot cast inflict wounds through the echo.
I was looking at the echo as being the same as a familiar and just being abe to cast it and move it up and use it to touch the enemies that you're fighting and then casting inflict wounds through you through your Echo so using the echo 2 cast inflict wounds which would keep you out of Harm's Way but would still use the echwitha familiar make the attack but you are saying that its not able to do that what i am saying is that the pc does the cast but the echo does the touch part that your casting it through the echo not that the echo it self is casting the spell just as you would with a familiar
Like telling your echo to open a door or using it to find. traps
Its just how i am reading it it would make sense that you could cast your echo and make it walk up to a monster touch it and then as an action cast inflict wounds and then bang roll to hit like any other attack
The Echo does what it says it does, and that's it. The rule that lets familiars be the point of origin for your touch range spells isn't present on the Echo ability, so it cannot do it.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.Explorer's Guide to Wildemount (p. 183)
War Caster
Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell
When a hostile creature’s movement provokes an opportunity attack from you, you can use your reaction to cast a spell at the creature, rather than making an opportunity attack. The spell must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature.Player's Handbook (p. 170)
These together mean that the Echo functions as the locus of your opportunity attacks, thus giving you an Inflict Wounds potentiality.
It is still specific beats general. In the description of the echo it specifically says attack. Crawford ruled against any kind of cheating a spell out of the echo. Your DM may allow it
That is pretty interesting how a generous interpretation of the rules would let a player cast spells through the Echo, but only as a reaction with Warcaster.
Keep in mind that the Echo is not a creature... I don't think it even qualifies as an "object"... its more like a persistent effect. It doesn't get an Opportunity Attack of its own, and the details of using it to get an opportunity Attack overtly state that you treat it as though your character is in the Echo's space, and only uses the term "Opportunity Attack"... it doesn't state "Melee Weapon Attack". Warcaster as well only uses the term "opportunity attack"... so whatever form an opportunity attack takes, it can be replaced with a spell, using the other restrictions of the feat.
That said... I feel like that's not the intent of the Echo Knight Fighter ability. It's basically just a "bug" where necessary qualifiers and complications weren't' included in the class description. Nobody's perfect, and there are lots of weird little contradictory comboes like this in D&D.
An interesting side conversation addendum with my above post is this: could you get around the War Caster requirement (to even begin to cheat the Echo requirement for Attack action, not Cast a Spell option), by utilizing the post-Tasha update to the Bladesinger's level 6 ability to replace one attack with a cantrip?
Theoretically, this would be even more RAW-allowed by following the, 'Attack' action requirement in the usage of your Echo. Thoughts?
An interesting side conversation addendum with my above post is this: could you get around the War Caster requirement (to even begin to cheat the Echo requirement for Attack action, not Cast a Spell option), by utilizing the post-Tasha update to the Bladesinger's level 6 ability to replace one attack with a cantrip?
Theoretically, this would be even more RAW-allowed by following the, 'Attack' action requirement in the usage of your Echo. Thoughts?
I think the logic holds up to a certain degree... BS Extra Attack states that you can replace one of the attacks in the attack action with a cantrip. Echo Knight states that, when taking the attack action, you can choose to have the attack originate from your space or the echo's. I think it falls into a sort of "order of operation" thing... if you were to say that you are casting a cantrip in place of an attack, then logically the Echo can't do that for you. However, if you consider it to be an Attack first, and then in the process of transferring the attack to the Echo it is replaced with a Cantrip, then it could be delivered by the echo.
I feel like this is easier to dismiss than the Warcaster exploit. The main reason I mention that is because the Echo Knight's unique Attack of Opportunity overtly states that you treat it as though your character is in the Echo's space, whereas using the Echo to attack states that the attack originates from your space or your echoes, but does not state that you treat it as though you are occupying the Echo's space.
Personally, I don't think you should definitively allow either exploit... but honestly if I was DM'ing and someone invested a multiclass and a feat into this specific combo I'd probably allow it, but I'd do so knowing I'm being generous to the player.
I am just wondering if i was to use echo knight and say one level or 2 levels of cleric so that i could get the death domain could i use my echo to use inflict wounds or would it be better to take a 3 level dip in fighter and the rest cleric and get as high as i can in cleric with inflict wounds as long as i can use the echo to do my damages
The echo cannot use inflict wounds. All of the echo abilities center around the knight taking the attack action. Casting inflict wounds requires a [Tooltip Not Found] action. Therefore, the knight cannot cast inflict wounds through the echo.
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I was looking at the echo as being the same as a familiar and just being abe to cast it and move it up and use it to touch the enemies that you're fighting and then casting inflict wounds through you through your Echo so using the echo 2 cast inflict wounds which would keep you out of Harm's Way but would still use the echwitha familiar make the attack but you are saying that its not able to do that what i am saying is that the pc does the cast but the echo does the touch part that your casting it through the echo not that the echo it self is casting the spell just as you would with a familiar
Like telling your echo to open a door or using it to find. traps
Its just how i am reading it it would make sense that you could cast your echo and make it walk up to a monster touch it and then as an action cast inflict wounds and then bang roll to hit like any other attack
The Echo does what it says it does, and that's it. The rule that lets familiars be the point of origin for your touch range spells isn't present on the Echo ability, so it cannot do it.
The Echo is an object, not a familiar.
If you want something that can inflict wounds take Trickery Domain Cleric and Invoke Duplicity. That Duplicate can be used to cast through.
Or warcaster feat*
These together mean that the Echo functions as the locus of your opportunity attacks, thus giving you an Inflict Wounds potentiality.
It is still specific beats general. In the description of the echo it specifically says attack. Crawford ruled against any kind of cheating a spell out of the echo. Your DM may allow it
That is pretty interesting how a generous interpretation of the rules would let a player cast spells through the Echo, but only as a reaction with Warcaster.
Keep in mind that the Echo is not a creature... I don't think it even qualifies as an "object"... its more like a persistent effect. It doesn't get an Opportunity Attack of its own, and the details of using it to get an opportunity Attack overtly state that you treat it as though your character is in the Echo's space, and only uses the term "Opportunity Attack"... it doesn't state "Melee Weapon Attack". Warcaster as well only uses the term "opportunity attack"... so whatever form an opportunity attack takes, it can be replaced with a spell, using the other restrictions of the feat.
That said... I feel like that's not the intent of the Echo Knight Fighter ability. It's basically just a "bug" where necessary qualifiers and complications weren't' included in the class description. Nobody's perfect, and there are lots of weird little contradictory comboes like this in D&D.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
An interesting side conversation addendum with my above post is this: could you get around the War Caster requirement (to even begin to cheat the Echo requirement for Attack action, not Cast a Spell option), by utilizing the post-Tasha update to the Bladesinger's level 6 ability to replace one attack with a cantrip?
Theoretically, this would be even more RAW-allowed by following the, 'Attack' action requirement in the usage of your Echo. Thoughts?
I think the logic holds up to a certain degree... BS Extra Attack states that you can replace one of the attacks in the attack action with a cantrip. Echo Knight states that, when taking the attack action, you can choose to have the attack originate from your space or the echo's. I think it falls into a sort of "order of operation" thing... if you were to say that you are casting a cantrip in place of an attack, then logically the Echo can't do that for you. However, if you consider it to be an Attack first, and then in the process of transferring the attack to the Echo it is replaced with a Cantrip, then it could be delivered by the echo.
I feel like this is easier to dismiss than the Warcaster exploit. The main reason I mention that is because the Echo Knight's unique Attack of Opportunity overtly states that you treat it as though your character is in the Echo's space, whereas using the Echo to attack states that the attack originates from your space or your echoes, but does not state that you treat it as though you are occupying the Echo's space.
Personally, I don't think you should definitively allow either exploit... but honestly if I was DM'ing and someone invested a multiclass and a feat into this specific combo I'd probably allow it, but I'd do so knowing I'm being generous to the player.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium