all classes are balanced around standard or point buy. no class relies on rolling well, and if they did they would be terrible (you have an equal chance to roll badly)
Well, you are obviously wrong. Roll 4D6 dropping the lowest (as per the rules) means you have a higher chance of rolling higher stats.
this is coming from a person who only plays gishes (spellswords) who are nearly always MAD, and Standard array works fine. take blade singer (imo the most MAD single class)
"Works fine" is not the same as "balanced".
high elf with standard: str: 8, dex: 14 (16 with racials), Con 13, wis: 12, int: 15 (16 with racials) char: 10.
or Paladin. Half elf with standard: str: 15(16 with racials), dex 8, con 13(14 with racials), wis 12, int 10, char 14(16 with racials)
So what you are saying is that if you choose the most optimized races for certain classes they work "fine"? Well yeah, of course they do. But that has nothing to do with what I said.
if you mean niche multi class builds (druid/paladin/rogue) then yea you are gonna need to roll well. but for singleton's classes standard array and point buy are balanced
all classes are balanced around standard or point buy. no class relies on rolling well, and if they did they would be terrible (you have an equal chance to roll badly)
Well, you are obviously wrong. Roll 4D6 dropping the lowest (as per the rules) means you have a higher chance of rolling higher stats.
this is coming from a person who only plays gishes (spellswords) who are nearly always MAD, and Standard array works fine. take blade singer (imo the most MAD single class)
"Works fine" is not the same as "balanced".
high elf with standard: str: 8, dex: 14 (16 with racials), Con 13, wis: 12, int: 15 (16 with racials) char: 10.
or Paladin. Half elf with standard: str: 15(16 with racials), dex 8, con 13(14 with racials), wis 12, int 10, char 14(16 with racials)
So what you are saying is that if you choose the most optimized races for certain classes they work "fine"? Well yeah, of course they do. But that has nothing to do with what I said.
if you mean niche multi class builds (druid/paladin/rogue) then yea you are gonna need to roll well. but for singleton's classes standard array and point buy are balanced
Not really what I meant, no.
obviously the best race for a class is gonna work the best. but even with a gnome paladin, the standard array is balanced. as long as everyone is using it. 4d6 drop lowest does mathematically give you higher stats, you are right. but even so, no class is dependent on having high stats. all the classes in the PhB and all other official source books are balanced around standard array. those examples I gave you? they were balenced. that is a normal array for any starting class.
the point you made was that you need to roll to have a balanced MAD class. I contradicted that. every module has the monsters CR based on standard array- because you never know what players will roll. so they give you the average. standard. if a class is balanced around being lucky it is not balanced at all.
not being combative here, just stating the obvious.
obviously the best race for a class is gonna work the best.
Oh, so not everything is equally balanced, you say? ;)
no class is dependent on having high stats.
Never said they did, stop strawmanning.
all the classes in the PhB and all other official source books are balanced around standard array.
Clearly not evrything in the PHB is balanced, that's whay you had an entire issue with the Ranger class.
those examples I gave you? they were balenced. that is a normal array for any starting class.
No, they were optimized using racial bonuses. Anyway, you are going very off-topic now. Could we please stay on track?
uuuuummm. I chose a good race for the class. most people do that. that is not optimizing. the ranger is slightly less powerful than the other classes at higher levels. it is still balanced as a class. you did! you said that MAD classes are dependent on rolling high! I pointed out that using the right race, you can build a totally balanced MAD class using standard array. if you wanna build a gnome paladin, go ahead. you should roll (to bring you up to the level of the other party members using "optimized" races) but you dont have to. my point is that standard can be balanced for any class.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Look I appreciate the tips but we're already on session 9 so we're not able to switch to standard array or Point Buy and I wanted some way to stop him from two shotting all my bosses and making it hard to make the campaign challenging at all (Not in a DM VS Player way just like in a I wanna nerf this OP game breaking build in a single player game for more fun challenge for a video game analogy)
if I were you I would make boss battles more than just combat. maybe a puzzle that only the wizard can solve, or a test of endurance where the barbarian can shine, a tracking area where your ranger won't feel useful. then when it does come down to combat, maybe give it resistance to bludgeoning damage, or have poisonous skin.
I have this exact same problem. our ranger my party rolled for stats (4d6 drop lowest) an the rest of us used point buy. he rolled so insanely well it broke the laws of physics. he allegedly rolled 18 17 16 14 13. and 19. with 4d6 drop the lowest. 19. it isn't even physically possible. anyway, he ended up keeping his rolls (he is brokenly overpowered) and now sometimes fudges dice rolls as well.
in the end it worked out fine, as we all kinda caught up, and now his ranger, while probably still one of the most powerful, is about equal with the rest of the party.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Cool idea but my team has THE weirdest comp ever 2 Rogues, 2 Monks and 2 Sorcerers Nerfing him like that would also nerf the other monk and creating a problem with a specific class in mind doesn't really work since y know
oh god........... I really don't know. the only thing I can think of is that the boss sees him as the biggest threat, and focuses on debuffing/killing him first.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
There's a great video by Taking20 that's done recently that might help deal with this, see "Subtle DM trick of Un-Balancing your encounters"
Don't look at targeting the weaknesses of the Monk, but really steer into the strengths of it, make the other players necessary beyond just combat.
A quick thought, possibly a large construct that is going to seal the party into a trap room or something, the monks have to keep it distracted whilst the others work on disabling it, give it reasonable AC for the group but colossal HP, the monks have to keep dealing damage otherwise it will ignore them and do bad thing X (or it's a spellhunting golem, it'll attack the sorcerers if not engaged in melee, while the sorcerers need to activate a half completed antimagic field)
Regarding dealing with this in the future, I give my players a choice between Standard Array and a Group Array (each player rolls for one of the array stats in the 4d6 drop the lowest) they have to choose before they start rolling, so they can't change their minds based on what they roll, this gives the potential for greater score without giving the same variation/imbalance between the players. I tend to encourage specialization in the players, so, they don't need to have the highest possible scores, just enough difference between them that they each have something they can do better than someone else
Monks are a bit OP at tier 1 anyway so even with a regular array or point buy he would be strong. Don't worry though, as they level up, they fall back power wise to casters and fighters.
One weakness of monks is that there are very few items that increase their efficiency in battle. So make sure your treasure hoards are geared towards the sorcerers and rogues. Wands, ranged weapons, armor or scrolls. Next add items that the monk can use outside of combat, googles of the night, ring of water walking and so on.
Look I appreciate the tips but we're already on session 9 so we're not able to switch to standard array or Point Buy and I wanted some way to stop him from two shotting all my bosses and making it hard to make the campaign challenging at all (Not in a DM VS Player way just like in a I wanna nerf this OP game breaking build in a single player game for more fun challenge for a video game analogy)
Again, look up Tucker's kobolds. If one character is killing people with his bare hands then people will know about it and start acting accordingly.
uuuuummm. I chose a good race for the class. most people do that. that is not optimizing.
That is the literal definition of optimizing. Lol.
the ranger is slightly less powerful than the other classes at higher levels. it is still balanced as a class.
Yeah, they did an entire revision for that class and that class only, because it wasn't balanced with the other classes. What do you think balanced means, in game terms, even?
you did! you said that MAD classes are dependent on rolling high! I pointed out that using the right race, you can build a totally balanced MAD class using standard array.
Again, what do you even think "balanced" means? No, wait, don't answer that. Youäve already derailed the thread enough.
if you wanna build a gnome paladin, go ahead. you should roll (to bring you up to the level of the other party members using "optimized" races) but you dont have to.
That doesn't have anything to do with anything, now youäre just trolling.
my point is that standard can be balanced for any class.
Again, I don't think you understand what balanced means in game terms. Also, again, no need for you to derail the thread.
I love dice rolls for stats, I think in every game I have played we always use 4d6 drop lowest. The variety adds to the fun. As a DM it isn't really that difficult to adjust mob stats, even on the fly.
To answer OP's question, while disregarding the tangential arguments above:
1) The whole reason there is a problem is that you rolled for stats. If you weren't okay with someone getting an 18, then you shouldn't have rolled. I, myself, have sat next to someone who rolled their stats and got 18-18-18-14-16-17 (the dice weren't even weighted or anything; he was just that lucky). I don't know that I've ever seen him roll stats and not get an 18, he's that lucky. Incidentally, this is why I don't have my own players roll their stats!
2) Do nothing. Starting off with 20 in your main stat seems overpowered at 1st level, but it'll even out later. Make them level-up quicker or something, if you feel it's too good. Also, Monks are probably the weakest class in 5e (besides maybe Rangers), so if you want, you can think of this as a bonus to cancel that out.
3) Don't roll stats next time. It is nearly guaranteed to create imbalance between the PCs.
To answer OP's question, while disregarding the tangential arguments above:
1) The whole reason there is a problem is that you rolled for stats. If you weren't okay with someone getting an 18, then you shouldn't have rolled. I, myself, have sat next to someone who rolled their stats and got 18-18-18-14-16-17 (the dice weren't even weighted or anything; he was just that lucky). I don't know that I've ever seen him roll stats and not get an 18, he's that lucky. Incidentally, this is why I don't have my own players roll their stats!
2) Do nothing. Starting off with 20 in your main stat seems overpowered at 1st level, but it'll even out later. Make them level-up quicker or something, if you feel it's too good. Also, Monks are probably the weakest class in 5e (besides maybe Rangers), so if you want, you can think of this as a bonus to cancel that out.
3) Don't roll stats next time. It is nearly guaranteed to create imbalance between the PCs.
I agree. rolling will always create imbalance as someone will always roll higher than the others. that being said, my group always rolls, because we like the randomness. every class (built right) is balanced at 1st level with point buy or standard. even if it means optimizing. the thing about point buy is that it makes every class do what they are supposed to do, how they are supposed to do it in a module. if you want balance use point buy. if you want variation, roll, but be ready to deal with some imbalance.
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
That's why I like Standard Array. Everybody has the exact same numbers. If you do point buy with new players they might now know the +/- adjustment chart, and how to game it.
Except that this is unbalanced towards certain classes. Some MAD classes more or less rely on you rolling well. :/
How do you mean?
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
That's why I like Standard Array. Everybody has the exact same numbers. If you do point buy with new players they might now know the +/- adjustment chart, and how to game it.
Except that this is unbalanced towards certain classes. Some MAD classes more or less rely on you rolling well. :/
How do you mean?
I don't know about classes requiring you to roll well, but Array can be kind of clunky for some MAD builds. I prefer point-buy myself, since it allows for some extra flexibility when trying to meet multiclass requirements and such. (For example, say I want to multiclass Wizard with 1 level of Cleric as a variant Human. I want 14 DEX so that I can fill out the max AC in medium armor, 14 CON to compensate for low HP and to make concentration saves, 16 INT for my spellcasting ability, and I need 13 WIS to multiclass. This is impossible with standard array, but possible with point-buy).
For new players, I like to have myself or another experienced player there to help guide them through creation and explain why we do things in certain ways, and since you can always replicate standard array with point-buy (without any unused points), if they don't understand point-buy, you can just give that one player the array instead without any imbalance of stats. Frankly, if they don't understand how it works, just have them do it here on DnDBeyond in the character creator. If you don't want to use it for the character, then just do it for the stats, and do everything else by hand or what say you.
IMO, point-buy has all the advantages of both rolling and array. You have the balance of the array, and the flexible possibilities of rolling.
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Well, you are obviously wrong. Roll 4D6 dropping the lowest (as per the rules) means you have a higher chance of rolling higher stats.
"Works fine" is not the same as "balanced".
So what you are saying is that if you choose the most optimized races for certain classes they work "fine"? Well yeah, of course they do. But that has nothing to do with what I said.
Not really what I meant, no.
obviously the best race for a class is gonna work the best. but even with a gnome paladin, the standard array is balanced. as long as everyone is using it. 4d6 drop lowest does mathematically give you higher stats, you are right. but even so, no class is dependent on having high stats. all the classes in the PhB and all other official source books are balanced around standard array. those examples I gave you? they were balenced. that is a normal array for any starting class.
the point you made was that you need to roll to have a balanced MAD class. I contradicted that. every module has the monsters CR based on standard array- because you never know what players will roll. so they give you the average. standard. if a class is balanced around being lucky it is not balanced at all.
not being combative here, just stating the obvious.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Oh, so not everything is equally balanced, you say? ;)
Never said they did, stop strawmanning.
Clearly not evrything in the PHB is balanced, that's whay you had an entire issue with the Ranger class.
No, they were optimized using racial bonuses. Anyway, you are going very off-topic now. Could we please stay on track?
uuuuummm. I chose a good race for the class. most people do that. that is not optimizing. the ranger is slightly less powerful than the other classes at higher levels. it is still balanced as a class. you did! you said that MAD classes are dependent on rolling high! I pointed out that using the right race, you can build a totally balanced MAD class using standard array. if you wanna build a gnome paladin, go ahead. you should roll (to bring you up to the level of the other party members using "optimized" races) but you dont have to. my point is that standard can be balanced for any class.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Look I appreciate the tips but we're already on session 9 so we're not able to switch to standard array or Point Buy and I wanted some way to stop him from two shotting all my bosses and making it hard to make the campaign challenging at all (Not in a DM VS Player way just like in a I wanna nerf this OP game breaking build in a single player game for more fun challenge for a video game analogy)
if I were you I would make boss battles more than just combat. maybe a puzzle that only the wizard can solve, or a test of endurance where the barbarian can shine, a tracking area where your ranger won't feel useful. then when it does come down to combat, maybe give it resistance to bludgeoning damage, or have poisonous skin.
I have this exact same problem. our ranger my party rolled for stats (4d6 drop lowest) an the rest of us used point buy. he rolled so insanely well it broke the laws of physics. he allegedly rolled 18 17 16 14 13. and 19. with 4d6 drop the lowest. 19. it isn't even physically possible. anyway, he ended up keeping his rolls (he is brokenly overpowered) and now sometimes fudges dice rolls as well.
in the end it worked out fine, as we all kinda caught up, and now his ranger, while probably still one of the most powerful, is about equal with the rest of the party.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Cool idea but my team has THE weirdest comp ever
2 Rogues, 2 Monks and 2 Sorcerers
Nerfing him like that would also nerf the other monk and creating a problem with a specific class in mind doesn't really work since y know
oh god........... I really don't know. the only thing I can think of is that the boss sees him as the biggest threat, and focuses on debuffing/killing him first.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
There's a great video by Taking20 that's done recently that might help deal with this, see "Subtle DM trick of Un-Balancing your encounters"
Don't look at targeting the weaknesses of the Monk, but really steer into the strengths of it, make the other players necessary beyond just combat.
A quick thought, possibly a large construct that is going to seal the party into a trap room or something, the monks have to keep it distracted whilst the others work on disabling it, give it reasonable AC for the group but colossal HP, the monks have to keep dealing damage otherwise it will ignore them and do bad thing X (or it's a spellhunting golem, it'll attack the sorcerers if not engaged in melee, while the sorcerers need to activate a half completed antimagic field)
Regarding dealing with this in the future, I give my players a choice between Standard Array and a Group Array (each player rolls for one of the array stats in the 4d6 drop the lowest) they have to choose before they start rolling, so they can't change their minds based on what they roll, this gives the potential for greater score without giving the same variation/imbalance between the players. I tend to encourage specialization in the players, so, they don't need to have the highest possible scores, just enough difference between them that they each have something they can do better than someone else
Monks are a bit OP at tier 1 anyway so even with a regular array or point buy he would be strong. Don't worry though, as they level up, they fall back power wise to casters and fighters.
One weakness of monks is that there are very few items that increase their efficiency in battle. So make sure your treasure hoards are geared towards the sorcerers and rogues. Wands, ranged weapons, armor or scrolls. Next add items that the monk can use outside of combat, googles of the night, ring of water walking and so on.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]TPK!
Again, look up Tucker's kobolds. If one character is killing people with his bare hands then people will know about it and start acting accordingly.
That is the literal definition of optimizing. Lol.
Yeah, they did an entire revision for that class and that class only, because it wasn't balanced with the other classes. What do you think balanced means, in game terms, even?
Again, what do you even think "balanced" means? No, wait, don't answer that. Youäve already derailed the thread enough.
That doesn't have anything to do with anything, now youäre just trolling.
Again, I don't think you understand what balanced means in game terms. Also, again, no need for you to derail the thread.
I love dice rolls for stats, I think in every game I have played we always use 4d6 drop lowest. The variety adds to the fun. As a DM it isn't really that difficult to adjust mob stats, even on the fly.
To answer OP's question, while disregarding the tangential arguments above:
1) The whole reason there is a problem is that you rolled for stats. If you weren't okay with someone getting an 18, then you shouldn't have rolled. I, myself, have sat next to someone who rolled their stats and got 18-18-18-14-16-17 (the dice weren't even weighted or anything; he was just that lucky). I don't know that I've ever seen him roll stats and not get an 18, he's that lucky. Incidentally, this is why I don't have my own players roll their stats!
2) Do nothing. Starting off with 20 in your main stat seems overpowered at 1st level, but it'll even out later. Make them level-up quicker or something, if you feel it's too good. Also, Monks are probably the weakest class in 5e (besides maybe Rangers), so if you want, you can think of this as a bonus to cancel that out.
3) Don't roll stats next time. It is nearly guaranteed to create imbalance between the PCs.
I agree. rolling will always create imbalance as someone will always roll higher than the others. that being said, my group always rolls, because we like the randomness. every class (built right) is balanced at 1st level with point buy or standard. even if it means optimizing. the thing about point buy is that it makes every class do what they are supposed to do, how they are supposed to do it in a module. if you want balance use point buy. if you want variation, roll, but be ready to deal with some imbalance.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
How do you mean?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
For every character that rolls an 18, there is a character that rolls a 6.
It just works out that an 18 in the best stat is a bigger deal than a 6 in the weakest.
I don't know about classes requiring you to roll well, but Array can be kind of clunky for some MAD builds. I prefer point-buy myself, since it allows for some extra flexibility when trying to meet multiclass requirements and such. (For example, say I want to multiclass Wizard with 1 level of Cleric as a variant Human. I want 14 DEX so that I can fill out the max AC in medium armor, 14 CON to compensate for low HP and to make concentration saves, 16 INT for my spellcasting ability, and I need 13 WIS to multiclass. This is impossible with standard array, but possible with point-buy).
For new players, I like to have myself or another experienced player there to help guide them through creation and explain why we do things in certain ways, and since you can always replicate standard array with point-buy (without any unused points), if they don't understand point-buy, you can just give that one player the array instead without any imbalance of stats. Frankly, if they don't understand how it works, just have them do it here on DnDBeyond in the character creator. If you don't want to use it for the character, then just do it for the stats, and do everything else by hand or what say you.
IMO, point-buy has all the advantages of both rolling and array. You have the balance of the array, and the flexible possibilities of rolling.