There are plenty of undead races. Zombies, vampires (and their derivatives), etc.. Also Dhampir are born as well and when they die they become full fledged vampires so the argument could apply that vampires can be born too. If you want to focus on PC races then there is the Revenant.
My view is still people who see racism in how certain creatures are described in the books are projecting their own bias into the game. And you know what thats normal anyone who tries to say they aren't racist are liars. Everyone is racist just to varying degrees you just need to acknowledge it. Once you acknowledge it and are aware of it you can take steps to minimize it. There is no intent here take those same descriptions and apply it to neanderthals and it fits perfectly. It also explains why they are described as evil. Forgotten realms is populated by mostly advanced societies so it stands to reason they would perceive their behaviors as evil. Its also important to remember that good and evil are not defined terms they are 100% subjective. So through the lens of elves for example how could orcs be interpreted as anything but evil?
undead being evil is racist! Since they have a pale skin color and make up the majority of creatures in the monster manual its obvious they are code for white people! Just a joke but we can honestly claim anything is racist from a certain point of view we need to draw a line somewhere otherwise we will be left with sourcebooks with zero interior pages
That's reductive to the point that it's not helpful to the conversation.
A lot of us are having a hard time reconciling being able to have fun playing this game we love with understanding how subtler forms of racism that are ingrained in it and how those things can be hurtful to other people.
I've gone through a lot of defensive rationalizations myself. "Orcs being inherently evil isn't racist, they were made that way by Gruumsh." Or "Drow being black is a magical effect that has nothing to do with real-world racism." Or "It doesn't mean anything to feature slavery in an adventure, it's not even the same kind of slavery."
But the farther I got from those initial kneejerk reactions the more time I had to sit with them, to examine the criticisms and to examine myself. The more I did that, the more I got to thinking that there are better, less defensive ways to approach these criticisms.
For orcs (and this works for most other fantasy races typically portrayed as inherently evil) in general, it's easy enough to just say "they're as varied as any other sentient race." There can still be groups of bad orcs, but now they're not representative of all orcs. Throw in a dash of different orc groups having varied cultural beliefs and practices and you can avoid stereotyping them as savages or even as "noble savages" which is problematic enough on its own.
I've started shaking things up with my antagonist groups when they're sentient humanoids. Instead of having antagonists be a homogeneous group of orcs, I'll use a grab-bag of humanoids and make them part of a mercenary company, pirates, raiders, a cult, or some other group that casts a wide net for membership.
When it comes to slavery-related issues... honestly I realized I don't feel like putting in the effort to try making a palatable version. I'm just not interested enough to tell a story with my players involving slavery. Turns out I'm not attached to the idea of using it as a plot device.
The drow... The drow is still a pretty big problem to deal with. I introduced my players to one drow priestess of Lolth. They made friends, discovered she's a complicated person who isn't inherently evil, and she basically joined their cast of supporting characters in the village they're using as home base. She even has some of the local farmers worshipping Lolth in hopes she'll send spiders to protect their crops. I'm not sure how to handle the drow race and society as a whole. I'm lost on the big picture approach to addressing them because it's a bit beyond me. For now, at least.
The new thing - at least to my limited experience - is racial bonuses. Again I had a kneejerk reaction. "It adds mechanic flavor, it doesn't mean anything!" But, I mean, come on. "Some races are better at things than other races" is real hard to separate from people believing and structuring our society around that idea for hundreds of years in the real world. There's no way to separate it. I'm coming around on the idea of encouraging players to pick the bonuses they think make the most mechanical or narrative sense (or both) and separate that from their characters' race (or ancestry, as I'm given to understand some folks think is a better term to use for this game mechanic). I'm not even opposed to making race (or ancestry) as inconsequential a choice as gender.
D&D is about as real world racist as it promotes devil worship. Yes there are devils in game, they are evil, the game isn’t. Yes there are multiple races in game, some playable, some not, some are good and some are evil, but the game isn’t racist. Drawing parallels to become offended is a stretch at best and at worst trying to tear down a game that brings people of all backgrounds together. I DM one game a week and play in another, here are some of the people I play with. A truck driver from the Midwest, a couple rednecks from the mountains, a medivac crazy man, a high profile exec, an astrophysicist, a Native American who can actually hang with me drinking bourbon, an amazing lesbian who is just delightful and makes us all look bad, a marine (yes I give him blue crayons and he tells me to **** off, go USAF), and a couple other minorities. We have a great damn time and I can tell you that outside D&D I doubt we would ever interact.... mostly because I’m lazy and don’t go near people outside work lol.
Please just play and have fun. Any reason to be offended by any of the rules or portrayals are solely a misinterpretation that have no malice from the designers or 99.99% of the player base. But if someone is bullying you or making racist statements, just let us know, we all have your back.
There are plenty of undead races. Zombies, vampires (and their derivatives), etc.. Also Dhampir are born as well and when they die they become full fledged vampires so the argument could apply that vampires can be born too. If you want to focus on PC races then there is the Revenant.
My view is still people who see racism in how certain creatures are described in the books are projecting their own bias into the game. And you know what thats normal anyone who tries to say they aren't racist are liars. Everyone is racist just to varying degrees you just need to acknowledge it. Once you acknowledge it and are aware of it you can take steps to minimize it. There is no intent here take those same descriptions and apply it to neanderthals and it fits perfectly. It also explains why they are described as evil. Forgotten realms is populated by mostly advanced societies so it stands to reason they would perceive their behaviors as evil. Its also important to remember that good and evil are not defined terms they are 100% subjective. So through the lens of elves for example how could orcs be interpreted as anything but evil?
Are Dhampir official? They do not seem to be automatically evil, at least not the UA version I just looked at. Revenant is NOT A SEPARATE RACE. "Appearing as decayed and emaciated versions of their once-living selves" They are someone who died with an unfinished task or oath so strong it brought them back from the dead. And revenants are not automatically evil, because of the nature of that return. Nor does it stereotype them at all other than having said unfulfilled task.
Zombies were living then dead and then animated. Vampires were living then converted. Either way, those are conditions, not races. Ditto lycanthropy. Even if it can be passed on (including if vampires can reproduce, despite being non-living), it is a condition that is potentially curable, not a separate race.
And saying 'everyone is racist to some degree' does not justify racism. 'Perceive their behaviours' assumes reasonably uniform behavior. That assumption is what is being challenged.
D&D is about as real world racist as it promotes devil worship. Yes there are devils in game, they are evil, the game isn’t. Yes there are multiple races in game, some playable, some not, some are good and some are evil, but the game isn’t racist. Drawing parallels to become offended is a stretch at best and at worst trying to tear down a game that brings people of all backgrounds together. I DM one game a week and play in another, here are some of the people I play with. A truck driver from the Midwest, a couple rednecks from the mountains, a medivac crazy man, a high profile exec, an astrophysicist, a Native American who can actually hang with me drinking bourbon, an amazing lesbian who is just delightful and makes us all look bad, a marine (yes I give him blue crayons and he tells me to **** off, go USAF), and a couple other minorities. We have a great damn time and I can tell you that outside D&D I doubt we would ever interact.... mostly because I’m lazy and don’t go near people outside work lol.
Please just play and have fun. Any reason to be offended by any of the rules or portrayals are solely a misinterpretation that have no malice from the designers or 99.99% of the player base. But if someone is bullying you or making racist statements, just let us know, we all have your back.
I dont know where you are getting the idea that just because we want to remove the ingrained racism that means we dont want Dnd to be a game that brings people together, because that is exactly the opposite of what we are aiming for. We want to remove the rehtoric that causes people who are uncomfortable or avoid playing because of these things to feel comfortable in this game. Expand the base. I also resent the opinion, which i have seen shared a few times now, implying that the only reason i or anyone else see racism that means we are the racist ones. I can very much assure you that is not the case. We just know what to look for better than most
I will ignore the 'i play with a few minorities so therefore racism doesnt exist' comment cause we are trying to be civil.
Can we all just acknowledge that something can be racist without intent, malicious or otherwise? Those of us who are minorities can basically all remember when someone has said or done something that has made us feel singled out or been rudely jarred back to the reality that, "Oh yeah, I'm not considered to be part of 'regular people' because everyone just turned to look at me uncomfortably to give the [X] perspective" sometimes even with good intent. It doesn't feel good, no matter how well intentioned it was. Racism isn't just outright slurs and deliberate attacks, sometimes it's pure ignorance. Both types are hurtful and harmful, but people act as if the latter should be given some sort of pass. It should not.
This then includes how writers, developers, and creators portray various peoples in their works. I applaud WOTC for for making a statement of intent to make their works more inclusive and less troubling in their portrayals for those of us who haven't had the privilege of automatic inclusion in "mainstream" society. It is, so far, only that however. A statement of intent. It remains to be seen how they actually put it into action.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Again, no ingrained racism unless you are perceiving it. Not sure what makes you the expert as to being able to sleuth out the racism ingrained in our game over the past 50 years that nobody has found before. If you feel something in the game is offensive then eliminate it from YOUR game and play however you like. A vast majority of players and outsiders don’t view the game as racist, including the people I have played with over the years and currently. Not one has ever brought up feeling the game was even remotely racist. If evil orcs trigger you, change your game not everyone else’s.
Again, no ingrained racism unless you are perceiving it. Not sure what makes you the expert as to being able to sleuth out the racism ingrained in our game over the past 50 years that nobody has found before. If you feel something in the game is offensive then eliminate it from YOUR game and play however you like. A vast majority of players and outsiders don’t view the game as racist, including the people I have played with over the years and currently. Not one has ever brought up feeling the game was even remotely racist. If evil orcs trigger you, change your game not everyone else’s.
1. Being on the receiving end of racism i think is qualification enough to notice it
2. Just because it is now being officially addressed doesnt mean that it has never been pointed out
3. Majority is also mostly white and straight so discrimination isnt something that concerns that demographic.
1) So others who have been the target of actual racist acts are wrong since they don’t agree?
2) Or misinterpreted
3) So the majority of my games are white and straight? Incorrect again
It’s your opinion and valid in your game. Be offended by whatever you like even if there is no basis in reality. But just because it’s your opinion and you may be offended doesn’t automatically mean you are right, not even close.
Again, no ingrained racism unless you are perceiving it. Not sure what makes you the expert as to being able to sleuth out the racism ingrained in our game over the past 50 years that nobody has found before. If you feel something in the game is offensive then eliminate it from YOUR game and play however you like. A vast majority of players and outsiders don’t view the game as racist, including the people I have played with over the years and currently. Not one has ever brought up feeling the game was even remotely racist. If evil orcs trigger you, change your game not everyone else’s.
I'd warn against jumping to a defensive position like this. Pointing out subtle, inherent racism in D&D isn't a personal attack against you. We can all love the game and still be able to look at its faults honestly and accept they should be addressed.
As for the idea that no one has said anything before... There are a handful of problems in our society that people are resistant to address because "no one said anything." That's often inaccurate. Often the problem is that people - especially those who are comfortable or powerful - don't listen. That seems to be what we're hearing now; many of these criticisms of D&D have been around for a while, even if those of us in the community haven't heard about them before or just haven't been in a position where we have to listen to them.
Weird how all these people claiming this material isn't racist or problematic know that so much better than the lead designers, who have clearly and explicitly said it is.
As for "intent," I can't improve upon what Ophidimancer said, so I won't try.
As for "some people from group X don't think it needs to be changed," I'm pretty sure it's not a requirement that all people from group X think alike.
Any reason to be offended by any of the rules or portrayals are solely a misinterpretation that have no malice from the designers or 99.99% of the player base.
Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in.
I’m still waiting for the subtle to obvious racism to be pointed out to myself and those whom I’m currently playing with. None of us can see any correlation from the real world to the fantasy of D&D. If an orc tribe attacks a halfling village that’s just the way things go, I wouldn’t label it a hate crime as it’s one race going after another. It’s a completely different reality of which neither race is real.
Any reason to be offended by any of the rules or portrayals are solely a misinterpretation that have no malice from the designers or 99.99% of the player base.
Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in.
But they aren’t real. I’m sure if an orc showed up at your door or a drider you would consider it a monster. Demons and devils are monstrous and evil, should we change them to be good too? Should we have all beings in D&D be good and live in harmony? That would be a pretty boring game. If you have a game where good fights and defeats evil monsters you have to have evil monsters. As far as I can tell, humans aren’t considered inherently evil or monstrous in D&D which is the only race that actually exists in real life.
Any reason to be offended by any of the rules or portrayals are solely a misinterpretation that have no malice from the designers or 99.99% of the player base.
Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in.
But they aren’t real. I’m sure if an orc showed up at your door or a drider you would consider it a monster. Demons and devils are monstrous and evil, should we change them to be good too? Should we have all beings in D&D be good and live in harmony? That would be a pretty boring game. If you have a game where good fights and defeats evil monsters you have to have evil monsters. As far as I can tell, humans aren’t considered inherently evil or monstrous in D&D which is the only race that actually exists in real life.
I will note that the issue of "X are always evil/good/etc" is problematic for reasons entirely unrelated to racism -- in most system that define good and evil in the first place, only moral agents are capable of being good or evil, and anything that lacks the ability to choose between good and evil is not a moral agent. Thus, the only way "all X are evil" makes sense is if being an X is itself a choice.
And I've never seen the Eiffel tower, but I believe the people who tell me it exists.
Perhaps I am not looking in the right place.
Orcs and Drow aren’t real, nobody has seen them.
I understand the post and the company bending to the will of those whom are offended as many companies today are. This is our society today. Not that it really effects gameplay much now unless you are in an under dark campaign which I have no idea how that’ll work now if Drow aren’t worshiping an evil deity anymore. I’m not a fan of the underdark but some people do. I’m all for bringing new and diverse people to the game, that’s great for business too which means more revenue and more content for us. But the language they use like “evil” and “monstrous” are still used for other beings.
1) So others who have been the target of actual racist acts are wrong since they don’t agree?
2) Or misinterpreted
3) So the majority of my games are white and straight? Incorrect again
It’s your opinion and valid in your game. Be offended by whatever you like even if there is no basis in reality. But just because it’s your opinion and you may be offended doesn’t automatically mean you are right, not even close.
I never said that anyone who disagrees has automatically never experienced discrimination, i was simply try to portray the fact that I personally have for those reasons. Misinterpret or not i counteracted your point. I also never personally attacked you or your game, majority applies to the community and my country, dont be selfish please.
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There are plenty of undead races. Zombies, vampires (and their derivatives), etc.. Also Dhampir are born as well and when they die they become full fledged vampires so the argument could apply that vampires can be born too. If you want to focus on PC races then there is the Revenant.
My view is still people who see racism in how certain creatures are described in the books are projecting their own bias into the game. And you know what thats normal anyone who tries to say they aren't racist are liars. Everyone is racist just to varying degrees you just need to acknowledge it. Once you acknowledge it and are aware of it you can take steps to minimize it. There is no intent here take those same descriptions and apply it to neanderthals and it fits perfectly. It also explains why they are described as evil. Forgotten realms is populated by mostly advanced societies so it stands to reason they would perceive their behaviors as evil. Its also important to remember that good and evil are not defined terms they are 100% subjective. So through the lens of elves for example how could orcs be interpreted as anything but evil?
That's reductive to the point that it's not helpful to the conversation.
A lot of us are having a hard time reconciling being able to have fun playing this game we love with understanding how subtler forms of racism that are ingrained in it and how those things can be hurtful to other people.
I've gone through a lot of defensive rationalizations myself. "Orcs being inherently evil isn't racist, they were made that way by Gruumsh." Or "Drow being black is a magical effect that has nothing to do with real-world racism." Or "It doesn't mean anything to feature slavery in an adventure, it's not even the same kind of slavery."
But the farther I got from those initial kneejerk reactions the more time I had to sit with them, to examine the criticisms and to examine myself. The more I did that, the more I got to thinking that there are better, less defensive ways to approach these criticisms.
For orcs (and this works for most other fantasy races typically portrayed as inherently evil) in general, it's easy enough to just say "they're as varied as any other sentient race." There can still be groups of bad orcs, but now they're not representative of all orcs. Throw in a dash of different orc groups having varied cultural beliefs and practices and you can avoid stereotyping them as savages or even as "noble savages" which is problematic enough on its own.
I've started shaking things up with my antagonist groups when they're sentient humanoids. Instead of having antagonists be a homogeneous group of orcs, I'll use a grab-bag of humanoids and make them part of a mercenary company, pirates, raiders, a cult, or some other group that casts a wide net for membership.
When it comes to slavery-related issues... honestly I realized I don't feel like putting in the effort to try making a palatable version. I'm just not interested enough to tell a story with my players involving slavery. Turns out I'm not attached to the idea of using it as a plot device.
The drow... The drow is still a pretty big problem to deal with. I introduced my players to one drow priestess of Lolth. They made friends, discovered she's a complicated person who isn't inherently evil, and she basically joined their cast of supporting characters in the village they're using as home base. She even has some of the local farmers worshipping Lolth in hopes she'll send spiders to protect their crops. I'm not sure how to handle the drow race and society as a whole. I'm lost on the big picture approach to addressing them because it's a bit beyond me. For now, at least.
The new thing - at least to my limited experience - is racial bonuses. Again I had a kneejerk reaction. "It adds mechanic flavor, it doesn't mean anything!" But, I mean, come on. "Some races are better at things than other races" is real hard to separate from people believing and structuring our society around that idea for hundreds of years in the real world. There's no way to separate it. I'm coming around on the idea of encouraging players to pick the bonuses they think make the most mechanical or narrative sense (or both) and separate that from their characters' race (or ancestry, as I'm given to understand some folks think is a better term to use for this game mechanic). I'm not even opposed to making race (or ancestry) as inconsequential a choice as gender.
D&D is about as real world racist as it promotes devil worship. Yes there are devils in game, they are evil, the game isn’t. Yes there are multiple races in game, some playable, some not, some are good and some are evil, but the game isn’t racist. Drawing parallels to become offended is a stretch at best and at worst trying to tear down a game that brings people of all backgrounds together. I DM one game a week and play in another, here are some of the people I play with. A truck driver from the Midwest, a couple rednecks from the mountains, a medivac crazy man, a high profile exec, an astrophysicist, a Native American who can actually hang with me drinking bourbon, an amazing lesbian who is just delightful and makes us all look bad, a marine (yes I give him blue crayons and he tells me to **** off, go USAF), and a couple other minorities. We have a great damn time and I can tell you that outside D&D I doubt we would ever interact.... mostly because I’m lazy and don’t go near people outside work lol.
Please just play and have fun. Any reason to be offended by any of the rules or portrayals are solely a misinterpretation that have no malice from the designers or 99.99% of the player base. But if someone is bullying you or making racist statements, just let us know, we all have your back.
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This is a sensitive subject and we are aware that there are conflicting opinions, hence 20 pages of discussion.
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dhampir have been official since 2e
I dont know where you are getting the idea that just because we want to remove the ingrained racism that means we dont want Dnd to be a game that brings people together, because that is exactly the opposite of what we are aiming for. We want to remove the rehtoric that causes people who are uncomfortable or avoid playing because of these things to feel comfortable in this game. Expand the base. I also resent the opinion, which i have seen shared a few times now, implying that the only reason i or anyone else see racism that means we are the racist ones. I can very much assure you that is not the case. We just know what to look for better than most
I will ignore the 'i play with a few minorities so therefore racism doesnt exist' comment cause we are trying to be civil.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Again, no ingrained racism unless you are perceiving it. Not sure what makes you the expert as to being able to sleuth out the racism ingrained in our game over the past 50 years that nobody has found before. If you feel something in the game is offensive then eliminate it from YOUR game and play however you like. A vast majority of players and outsiders don’t view the game as racist, including the people I have played with over the years and currently. Not one has ever brought up feeling the game was even remotely racist. If evil orcs trigger you, change your game not everyone else’s.
1. Being on the receiving end of racism i think is qualification enough to notice it
2. Just because it is now being officially addressed doesnt mean that it has never been pointed out
3. Majority is also mostly white and straight so discrimination isnt something that concerns that demographic.
1) So others who have been the target of actual racist acts are wrong since they don’t agree?
2) Or misinterpreted
3) So the majority of my games are white and straight? Incorrect again
It’s your opinion and valid in your game. Be offended by whatever you like even if there is no basis in reality. But just because it’s your opinion and you may be offended doesn’t automatically mean you are right, not even close.
I'd warn against jumping to a defensive position like this. Pointing out subtle, inherent racism in D&D isn't a personal attack against you. We can all love the game and still be able to look at its faults honestly and accept they should be addressed.
As for the idea that no one has said anything before... There are a handful of problems in our society that people are resistant to address because "no one said anything." That's often inaccurate. Often the problem is that people - especially those who are comfortable or powerful - don't listen. That seems to be what we're hearing now; many of these criticisms of D&D have been around for a while, even if those of us in the community haven't heard about them before or just haven't been in a position where we have to listen to them.
Weird how all these people claiming this material isn't racist or problematic know that so much better than the lead designers, who have clearly and explicitly said it is.
As for "intent," I can't improve upon what Ophidimancer said, so I won't try.
As for "some people from group X don't think it needs to be changed," I'm pretty sure it's not a requirement that all people from group X think alike.
Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in.
I’m still waiting for the subtle to obvious racism to be pointed out to myself and those whom I’m currently playing with. None of us can see any correlation from the real world to the fantasy of D&D. If an orc tribe attacks a halfling village that’s just the way things go, I wouldn’t label it a hate crime as it’s one race going after another. It’s a completely different reality of which neither race is real.
But they aren’t real. I’m sure if an orc showed up at your door or a drider you would consider it a monster. Demons and devils are monstrous and evil, should we change them to be good too? Should we have all beings in D&D be good and live in harmony? That would be a pretty boring game. If you have a game where good fights and defeats evil monsters you have to have evil monsters. As far as I can tell, humans aren’t considered inherently evil or monstrous in D&D which is the only race that actually exists in real life.
And I've never seen the Eiffel tower, but I believe the people who tell me it exists.
Perhaps I am not looking in the right place.
Oops, it looks like I forgot to attribute the statement in that previous post. It was a direct quote from the D&D development team's post on this subject at https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd .
Silly me.
I will note that the issue of "X are always evil/good/etc" is problematic for reasons entirely unrelated to racism -- in most system that define good and evil in the first place, only moral agents are capable of being good or evil, and anything that lacks the ability to choose between good and evil is not a moral agent. Thus, the only way "all X are evil" makes sense is if being an X is itself a choice.
Orcs and Drow aren’t real, nobody has seen them.
I understand the post and the company bending to the will of those whom are offended as many companies today are. This is our society today. Not that it really effects gameplay much now unless you are in an under dark campaign which I have no idea how that’ll work now if Drow aren’t worshiping an evil deity anymore. I’m not a fan of the underdark but some people do. I’m all for bringing new and diverse people to the game, that’s great for business too which means more revenue and more content for us. But the language they use like “evil” and “monstrous” are still used for other beings.
I never said that anyone who disagrees has automatically never experienced discrimination, i was simply try to portray the fact that I personally have for those reasons.
Misinterpret or not i counteracted your point. I also never personally attacked you or your game, majority applies to the community and my country, dont be selfish please.