So I bought most of the D&D 5th edition books and wanted to play it with my game group. As one of my friends was reading through the PHB he got really angry that the book says that the only way to get feats is to trade your Ability Score bonus. (This guy is a rule lawyer and doesn't agree with house rules much.) He then got even more upset that there aren't that many feats in the book either.
Another friend refuses to play because he hates subclasses and subraces. For example he wants to play dwarven bard. Well in 5th edition it seems that he has to choose. Is he a hill dwarf or a mountain dwarf? When I told him that he didn't need to my 'rule lawyer' friend said that he has to because 1) you have additional ability score increases with each subrace and 2) when choosing the height and weight there is a difference between the hill dwarf and mountain dwarf. Then they both complain about the character sheet... not enough space for equipment, why not have a notes section instead of allies and organizations? Not enough skills.... they also hate that background is so important in this edition... I love playing with this group and I want to play/DM this edition of D&D... but they seem to be fighting me on this and I don't know what to do. Any advice?
So I bought most of the D&D 5th edition books and wanted to play it with my game group. As one of my friends was reading through the PHB he got really angry that the book says that the only way to get feats is to trade your Ability Score bonus.
Or be a variant human.
He then got even more upset that there aren't that many feats in the book either.
Which is probably why there aren't very many opportunities to get them.
Another friend refuses to play because he hates subclasses and subraces. For example he wants to play dwarven bard. Well in 5th edition it seems that he has to choose. Is he a hill dwarf or a mountain dwarf? When I told him that he didn't need to my 'rule lawyer' friend said that he has to because 1) you have additional ability score increases with each subrace and 2) when choosing the height and weight there is a difference between the hill dwarf and mountain dwarf.
Not all races have subraces, but all official classes have subclasses. Subclasses (and, consequently, fewer classes) are one of the major selling points of 5th edition, for some people.
Then they both complain about the character sheet... not enough space for equipment, why not have a notes section instead of allies and organizations?
There's more than one character sheet. There's even more than one official character sheet. Try another one.
Not enough skills....
You want skills? Play GURPS.
they also hate that background is so important in this edition...
Why?
I love playing with this group and I want to play/DM this edition of D&D... but they seem to be fighting me on this and I don't know what to do. Any advice?
Get a second group?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I have a second group but we are already playing a Pathfinder campaign at the moment. The main problem is these two particular players. One is a rule lawyer as I have said, and the other is a power gamer. Both read through the books and try to build powerful characters. My rule lawyer friend is always trying to out do my power gamer friend. Both love 3.5 edition and Star Wars Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion/Force and Destiny. My other friend also loves AD&D, Shadow Run, and Legend of the 5 Rings. So you can guess what we play most often. My Power gamer friend also reads very slowly and really doesn't like being rushed in building his characters. Heck I bought a second set of each book (except adventure modules) to leave at his house so that he can read them on his own time.The rest of the group are fine with it. But 1 is married to the power gamer, and the my other player is brother to the rule lawyer. We have one or two others that join in but they are flaky. Also we meet to play at the married couples house.
Are you sure about that or is it really just that this is the only available option to you? Because these honestly sound like unpleasant players to game with at all.
Regardless, I wouldn't try to convince them of anything. Some people are set in their ways or just have different preferences. I'd start another group and not invite them but that's just me.
Yes. But he also wanted to play a character that was... I think it was a Bard that duel wielded whips and had a dragon for a mount. Or a gnome cleric with a rod of smiting! Not a mace of smiting, but a rod of smiting from AD&D! Oh his wife wanted to play a wizard that didn't like using spells but preferred to punch things. He was to be named Fisty McPunchkill (and she didn't want to multiclass into fighter.)
Not really it's only during character creation that this stuff happens. When playing the rule lawyer friend causes some strife due to RULES!!! but other than that, we have a good time.
Nah, they're interesting. Of course, one of the things I have associated with the word interesting is the fact that multiple cultures consider something along the lines of "may you live in interesting times" or "may your life be interesting" to be a very potent curse. Another is the phrase "if you can't say anything nice about something, call it interesting."
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Not really it's only during character creation that this stuff happens. When playing the rule lawyer friend causes some strife due to RULES!!! but other than that, we have a good time.
Out of curiosity, does he point out rules that would hinder the party, or just rules that would help the party?
So I bought most of the D&D 5th edition books and wanted to play it with my game group. As one of my friends was reading through the PHB he got really angry that the book says that the only way to get feats is to trade your Ability Score bonus. (This guy is a rule lawyer and doesn't agree with house rules much.) He then got even more upset that there aren't that many feats in the book either.
Another friend refuses to play because he hates subclasses and subraces. For example he wants to play dwarven bard. Well in 5th edition it seems that he has to choose. Is he a hill dwarf or a mountain dwarf? When I told him that he didn't need to my 'rule lawyer' friend said that he has to because 1) you have additional ability score increases with each subrace and 2) when choosing the height and weight there is a difference between the hill dwarf and mountain dwarf. Then they both complain about the character sheet... not enough space for equipment, why not have a notes section instead of allies and organizations? Not enough skills.... they also hate that background is so important in this edition... I love playing with this group and I want to play/DM this edition of D&D... but they seem to be fighting me on this and I don't know what to do. Any advice?
First i would say ... the rules are there to set a basic way to play in some logical way and they try to get everything *rules and world etc.. playable and to keep a balance ... but D&D is a game of imagination mostly and you can always set rules as a DM for everyone to have fun without get your adventure a mess... its to you and your player to get agree with some modification.
2nd thing ... having a player over powering other player in a group is very difficult to decide and have monsters to balance the fight ... if the monster is too weak the other player are just strong enough to get out of it with tactical and group work ... but your over powered player gonna kill that monster easily ... so if you get a stronger monster... then when he hit the other party member it can kill them one by one till it been kill by the over powered player ... a solution is to .. give them choice over generated character that you think they would like to play but keep them balanced so its less difficult for you to get them encounters and not killing half the grp all the time and always having the same overpowerd player survive because you get 1 player happy and the other member of the grp pissed because they get killed all the time .
3rd soon here when the character builder and character sheet revamp (1-3 weeks) Adams says they will be more costomization and you will be probably able to give more feats and skip subclass etc... or you can always start your character here then level it up on your sheet (old fashion pen and paper) so he can get what he want(with your approbation) if your the DM you have to be able to give them what they want without having to struggle with the balance otherwise you will have to work a lot more to ensure one player doesnt screw up your adventure and that the other player of the group also have fun and dont get kill all the time
overall keep in mind that game is there for having fun ... for players but also for the DM so they have to stop behing cry baby and respect you as a DM too
You did say thats a group you like to play with but i hardly understand how you can like to play with people who complaint all the time about rules .. and refuses house rules to please players and the other one who always want a super character ... i have one of those and you know what i do ... since his character always boosted ... i get him all the monster and killed him multiple time ... *explanation since you look the most equiped and strong character and probably the leader of the group they try to get rid of you first. .... after a couple time dying he finaly understood that D&D is not a videogame that you play alone ... its team work over powerfull character ... hope one day your buddy will understand that
Here's the way; "Hey everybody, I really want to give these rules a try. Will you try them with me? I know they don't read all that great for your preconceptions of what D&D should be like, but maybe you'll like the way the game actually plays when it get it up and running. What do you say?"
Because if it takes any more than that to get them on-board with trying out a new rules system, I guarantee it will not be worth convincing them - you'd be better off sticking to what they are used to, or finding yourself a whole new group to try 5th edition with.
The problem arose when my 'rule lawyer' friend joined the group. My power gamer friend just builds powerful characters or extremely interesting and unique characters. His wife has been our DM for quite some time. We run adventures then once the adventure is over (normally about after 3 months) we go to a new system because my power gamer friend got a new book and wants to build a new character. Yes we changed systems a lot but it was fun. Then I invited my 'rule Lawyer' friend to the group thinking he would be a good addition to the group... well... that's when I learned he was a 'rule lawyer.' We started the sunless citadel in 3.5. He was a gnome barbarian and we were going through the dungeon and he wanted to do his rage ability in a fight. But... we killed everything before he could get into the room cause he fell into a pit trap and the dice didn't like him when he tried to climb out. Later on in the dungeon, I can't remember where, there were other traps but he stomped through them. I think the DM put them, in cause our group was moving a little faster than she could read in the book, even though they weren't in the module. They were some type of spring loaded traps, in my head they were like bear traps or something. Well my rule lawyer friend has lots of hit points by this time and so he thinks I'm going to activate all the traps, or something cause he just plows through. He then argues that the damage he received was too high and spent the rest of the session trying to prove her wrong. He did prove her wrong but... come on... now because he upset the power gamer's wife (she being our DM) he got a stern talking and we decided to go to a different system. Well the power gamer made a powerful character, the rule lawyer found out. Rule lawyer complains that the power gamer was cheating (not reading the rules properly) or complaining that because the power gamer was married to the DM the power gamer was getting special privileges that the rest of the group could have. The rest of the group didn't care. If we wanted a certain thing or have certain abilities we talked it out with the DM, but rule lawyer was mad. Well in order to appease him the DM let the rule lawyer have a few wondrous items (randomly rolled) and then the rule lawyer asked that everybody (except the power gamer) gets to have wondrous items as well... Anyway things tended to mellow out for a time. Then the rule lawyer was forced to move out of his apartment because his room mate got married and moved out and he couldn't afford it. He had to break contract and pay the fine, not evicted. So power gamer and DM, being good Samaritans, let him rent out a basement room in their house... he paid his rent on time but... well they started butting heads. And now we are where we are. He seems to be ruining the role playing sessions because he is now arguing even more that power gamer is cheating, or DM is playing favorites again... we haven't had a successful start of a game in 6 months because we all are sharing books and rule lawyer is looking at character sheets while players are not around, cause we leave them at their house so we don't loose them, and tells people how they should build their characters or that they were not following the rules correctly or (in case of the power gamer) that they were out right breaking rules to get certain abilities... He is also annoying the DM about rules and asking for DM rulings during the week outside of when everyone gets together. He will soon be evicted from the house because the power gamer's parents are going to move in with them for medical reasons. And it has been proposed by the DM and power gamer to me and the rule lawyer's brother whether or not he should be kicked out of the group. I say yes cause well... he is starting to get on my nerves even, and I'm a very mellow guy. But... it seems he's damaging the group. I think if he leaves the group it will be easier on everyone... I think that the power gamer may be willing if he didn't have to deal with the rule lawyer.
<cut for space>...And it has been proposed by the DM and power gamer to me and the rule lawyer's brother whether or not he should be kicked out of the group. I say yes cause well... he is starting to get on my nerves even, and I'm a very mellow guy. But... it seems he's damaging the group. I think if he leaves the group it will be easier on everyone... I think that the power gamer may be willing if he didn't have to deal with the rule lawyer.
This player sounds like a bad fit for your group, so you should definitely remove the player from the group. Even if you guys were good friends otherwise, there are just some compatibility issues (what the person wants from the game experience) that can't be resolved and everyone involved will be better off not playing together - ideally, the ill-fitting player will move on and find a group that they actually mesh with (i.e. one that is as strict about the rules as the player wants your group to be) and will enjoy their gaming experience more because of it, while the rest of your group also enjoy your gaming experience more because that player isn't filling up your time with arguments you don't want to be having.
So I bought most of the D&D 5th edition books and wanted to play it with my game group. As one of my friends was reading through the PHB he got really angry that the book says that the only way to get feats is to trade your Ability Score bonus. (This guy is a rule lawyer and doesn't agree with house rules much.) He then got even more upset that there aren't that many feats in the book either.
Another friend refuses to play because he hates subclasses and subraces. For example he wants to play dwarven bard. Well in 5th edition it seems that he has to choose. Is he a hill dwarf or a mountain dwarf? When I told him that he didn't need to my 'rule lawyer' friend said that he has to because 1) you have additional ability score increases with each subrace and 2) when choosing the height and weight there is a difference between the hill dwarf and mountain dwarf. Then they both complain about the character sheet... not enough space for equipment, why not have a notes section instead of allies and organizations? Not enough skills.... they also hate that background is so important in this edition... I love playing with this group and I want to play/DM this edition of D&D... but they seem to be fighting me on this and I don't know what to do. Any advice?
Or be a variant human.
Which is probably why there aren't very many opportunities to get them.
Not all races have subraces, but all official classes have subclasses. Subclasses (and, consequently, fewer classes) are one of the major selling points of 5th edition, for some people.
There's more than one character sheet. There's even more than one official character sheet. Try another one.
You want skills? Play GURPS.
Why?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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I have a second group but we are already playing a Pathfinder campaign at the moment. The main problem is these two particular players. One is a rule lawyer as I have said, and the other is a power gamer. Both read through the books and try to build powerful characters. My rule lawyer friend is always trying to out do my power gamer friend. Both love 3.5 edition and Star Wars Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion/Force and Destiny. My other friend also loves AD&D, Shadow Run, and Legend of the 5 Rings. So you can guess what we play most often. My Power gamer friend also reads very slowly and really doesn't like being rushed in building his characters. Heck I bought a second set of each book (except adventure modules) to leave at his house so that he can read them on his own time.The rest of the group are fine with it. But 1 is married to the power gamer, and the my other player is brother to the rule lawyer. We have one or two others that join in but they are flaky. Also we meet to play at the married couples house.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Regardless, I wouldn't try to convince them of anything. Some people are set in their ways or just have different preferences. I'd start another group and not invite them but that's just me.
Yes. But he also wanted to play a character that was... I think it was a Bard that duel wielded whips and had a dragon for a mount. Or a gnome cleric with a rod of smiting! Not a mace of smiting, but a rod of smiting from AD&D! Oh his wife wanted to play a wizard that didn't like using spells but preferred to punch things. He was to be named Fisty McPunchkill (and she didn't want to multiclass into fighter.)
No offense but your group sounds awful.
Not really it's only during character creation that this stuff happens. When playing the rule lawyer friend causes some strife due to RULES!!! but other than that, we have a good time.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
First i would say ... the rules are there to set a basic way to play in some logical way and they try to get everything *rules and world etc.. playable and to keep a balance ... but D&D is a game of imagination mostly and you can always set rules as a DM for everyone to have fun without get your adventure a mess... its to you and your player to get agree with some modification.
2nd thing ... having a player over powering other player in a group is very difficult to decide and have monsters to balance the fight ... if the monster is too weak the other player are just strong enough to get out of it with tactical and group work ... but your over powered player gonna kill that monster easily ... so if you get a stronger monster... then when he hit the other party member it can kill them one by one till it been kill by the over powered player ... a solution is to .. give them choice over generated character that you think they would like to play but keep them balanced so its less difficult for you to get them encounters and not killing half the grp all the time and always having the same overpowerd player survive because you get 1 player happy and the other member of the grp pissed because they get killed all the time .
3rd soon here when the character builder and character sheet revamp (1-3 weeks) Adams says they will be more costomization and you will be probably able to give more feats and skip subclass etc... or you can always start your character here then level it up on your sheet (old fashion pen and paper) so he can get what he want(with your approbation) if your the DM you have to be able to give them what they want without having to struggle with the balance otherwise you will have to work a lot more to ensure one player doesnt screw up your adventure and that the other player of the group also have fun and dont get kill all the time
overall keep in mind that game is there for having fun ... for players but also for the DM so they have to stop behing cry baby and respect you as a DM too
You did say thats a group you like to play with but i hardly understand how you can like to play with people who complaint all the time about rules .. and refuses house rules to please players and the other one who always want a super character ... i have one of those and you know what i do ... since his character always boosted ... i get him all the monster and killed him multiple time ... *explanation since you look the most equiped and strong character and probably the leader of the group they try to get rid of you first. .... after a couple time dying he finaly understood that D&D is not a videogame that you play alone ... its team work over powerfull character ... hope one day your buddy will understand that
i wish you best of luck and fun with your group
Here's the way; "Hey everybody, I really want to give these rules a try. Will you try them with me? I know they don't read all that great for your preconceptions of what D&D should be like, but maybe you'll like the way the game actually plays when it get it up and running. What do you say?"
Because if it takes any more than that to get them on-board with trying out a new rules system, I guarantee it will not be worth convincing them - you'd be better off sticking to what they are used to, or finding yourself a whole new group to try 5th edition with.
The problem arose when my 'rule lawyer' friend joined the group. My power gamer friend just builds powerful characters or extremely interesting and unique characters. His wife has been our DM for quite some time. We run adventures then once the adventure is over (normally about after 3 months) we go to a new system because my power gamer friend got a new book and wants to build a new character. Yes we changed systems a lot but it was fun. Then I invited my 'rule Lawyer' friend to the group thinking he would be a good addition to the group... well... that's when I learned he was a 'rule lawyer.' We started the sunless citadel in 3.5. He was a gnome barbarian and we were going through the dungeon and he wanted to do his rage ability in a fight. But... we killed everything before he could get into the room cause he fell into a pit trap and the dice didn't like him when he tried to climb out. Later on in the dungeon, I can't remember where, there were other traps but he stomped through them. I think the DM put them, in cause our group was moving a little faster than she could read in the book, even though they weren't in the module. They were some type of spring loaded traps, in my head they were like bear traps or something. Well my rule lawyer friend has lots of hit points by this time and so he thinks I'm going to activate all the traps, or something cause he just plows through. He then argues that the damage he received was too high and spent the rest of the session trying to prove her wrong. He did prove her wrong but... come on... now because he upset the power gamer's wife (she being our DM) he got a stern talking and we decided to go to a different system. Well the power gamer made a powerful character, the rule lawyer found out. Rule lawyer complains that the power gamer was cheating (not reading the rules properly) or complaining that because the power gamer was married to the DM the power gamer was getting special privileges that the rest of the group could have. The rest of the group didn't care. If we wanted a certain thing or have certain abilities we talked it out with the DM, but rule lawyer was mad. Well in order to appease him the DM let the rule lawyer have a few wondrous items (randomly rolled) and then the rule lawyer asked that everybody (except the power gamer) gets to have wondrous items as well... Anyway things tended to mellow out for a time. Then the rule lawyer was forced to move out of his apartment because his room mate got married and moved out and he couldn't afford it. He had to break contract and pay the fine, not evicted. So power gamer and DM, being good Samaritans, let him rent out a basement room in their house... he paid his rent on time but... well they started butting heads. And now we are where we are. He seems to be ruining the role playing sessions because he is now arguing even more that power gamer is cheating, or DM is playing favorites again... we haven't had a successful start of a game in 6 months because we all are sharing books and rule lawyer is looking at character sheets while players are not around, cause we leave them at their house so we don't loose them, and tells people how they should build their characters or that they were not following the rules correctly or (in case of the power gamer) that they were out right breaking rules to get certain abilities... He is also annoying the DM about rules and asking for DM rulings during the week outside of when everyone gets together. He will soon be evicted from the house because the power gamer's parents are going to move in with them for medical reasons. And it has been proposed by the DM and power gamer to me and the rule lawyer's brother whether or not he should be kicked out of the group. I say yes cause well... he is starting to get on my nerves even, and I'm a very mellow guy. But... it seems he's damaging the group. I think if he leaves the group it will be easier on everyone... I think that the power gamer may be willing if he didn't have to deal with the rule lawyer.
guess you find your solution remove the player that rotten your playing session its like fruits lol
5th for good or ill is still a fairly ..simple system
some players are going to find it to limiting.
adding in the arcana articles and such as well as 3rd party stuff can help fix this, though would not be adventure league legal.