BAck in 4th in our group we would always switch DM and thus campaign each or so week, so that everyone that Dmed could play etc.
Now off course the game quality was..fluctuating, but still fun and humorous and we had some of the most epic laughing fits ever.
One time , one of them who also used to work at my shop for some allowance was DMing.
I played a Vryloka( Dhampir) Blackguard, geared it to be a Charger chassis (Horned helmet that deals +1D6 when you charge, feat that let you attack for a free action if you hit with a charge attack etc)
While in the first 7 sessions he was generous with the magic items, in the next 7 sessions, we hardly found or looted anything worth mentioning outside gold and jewels.
Now for some reasons i forgot since, my character ended up in some mess due to bad rolls, while we where at Inn to get our next job, wich was to escort a researcher to some ruins to get his hands on an artifact.
I was taken aside by the ones who runs the place, and they asked me to do something for them, cut donw a witness to one of their crimes, who's been locked away so that she won't get killed before the trial, and that the Guard is in it, so i just have to go there, tell the password to the guard, enter the cells, and stab the ***** and gtfo, simple right?...
So i go alone, since it was something only my character had to do, and everything goes as planned.
I give the password to the guard, he lets me in, and i search the cells, but... No sign of the broad...
I tell the DM that i "look inside the cell to see if there is any clue of where she might be", DM tells me that i don't find anything while i rolled like 18 perception.
So i think that something is wrong, or maybe its a setup...
I go back to the guard posted at the entrance and ask where the woman is, he tells me that she should be back there in the last cell...
And then the DM tells me that i feel a stab in my back, it was the woman who tried to shank me from behind, and i was Hella surprised, cause i checked the other cells, all where closed and the place was litteraly a corridor with 3 cells in it, so NO ******* place for her to hide and i wouldn't see...
He then tells me that she was still in her cell, just that i missed her, i then refute that i said i looked in the cell and even rolled an 18 "Yeah but you din't specify that you would Enter the cell and she was hidden behind the door", at this point i'm like "Dude...really? i had to spell out EVERY little detail when i do something?, if i say that i Loo IN the Cell, then i GO IN the ******* Cell to look IN the Cell"...
Off course a PAtrol comes by ask whats going on and i try to bullshit my way out, but rolls been ***** this evening, i fail.
So now i must fight 1 Vs 5...
Well it goes better than expected and when there's just One last guard left, here comes another patrol of 5 dudes..., and another one and another one.
I think i've cleared like 8, EIGTH ******* waves of 5 guards each time and EACH TIME they would show up when i'm about to kill the last one from the previous patrol...
Now the place we're at is on the side of the towns castle, and is litteraly a small bridge over the Moot with ONE door, so not really aplace where so many Patrols would randomly show up...
I ask when will these be over and the DM tells me dead pan "well once you've dropped dead of course...", so i understood that it was ONE of these, a BAttle/encounter that no matter what you are not supposed to win...
SO i throw in the towel, get arrested for, well mass murder...(killed 25 of the ****s) and imprisoned in the cells just behind me...Obviously frustrated, a 30min argument then starts, cause maybe i'm the one that did miss something but whne you say "I AM LOOKING INSIDE" it means that you actually go INSIDE the cell to look and search...
So then some arsehat assassin comes in the cells, kills the guard and the broad, and let me out of the cell..., and i'm like "Ok its a railroad..."
THen we end the session, and i was really ******* frustrated but whats done is done.
I tell them that due to work i will not be able to be there next week and the week after, so that they DON'T PLAY my character without me, be it in"Autopilot" or a DMPC, No one touches it(cause we had a case where one of the players was absent and someone else played the character...and ****ed with it, wich in th end led to some plot hook, but it was still a dick move)
They all agree and the Dm tells me that he has something planned for this.
2Weeks later...
The Dm comes to my place to help with the work...
And then he ask me "You did tell me you had an idea for a character no?", i slowly turn around and look at him and ask" what the hell happened?..."
See evne tho i had told them, the 4 of them, each individualy that i would not be there and that NO ONE is to play my character..., they still did...
The week after the previous game, for some reason they all Forgot that i wouldn't come, and none of them though about calling me to see if i would come or not.
So they started the session.
What happened is that my character to get out of the mess he was put in, i still had a job to do for the Shady arsesholes at the Inn to be out of "debt", so i had to accompany a group of assailants that was to intercept a group of meddlesome adventurers (you all see where i'm going with this?...)
So My character then goes and they reach the place, whee they set an Ambush for OUR group(the other players)...
In the DM mind, and according to his "MAsterplan" the ambush would go on, and there would bea bit of fights, a couyple of turns.
Then either my character or the PC's would realise whats going on, and my character would then turn ont he assailants and finish them off..., not a bad idea honestly...
Except... that the idiot, started a plan and lost control of the situation real quikc and DIN'T DO SHIT TO REMEDY IT.
He rolls INit, my Character rolls the highest of all the assailants and its a surprise round...
So obviously my Blackguard CHarger-Machine Murder train( and there's no brakes on the murder train) goes first and...Charges, logic...
DM crits, he then check my gear (we're lvl 8-9) and then realise that its a Fullblade that i have (think Dragonslayer from Berserk kind of sword..., deals D12 damages, in 4th your powers could deal 1[W] or 2[W] etc, [W] stand for the damage die that your weapon deal, and the way my Blackguard build worked was that when i Charge instead of a BAsic weapon attack that deals 1[W] dmg, i can use my at-will attack that deals 2[W] dmg instead when i charge...)
He looks at the sheets and then at the PC's players, then think "nah imma fudge it" and reroll the dice, and its...another Crit...
So he's like "welp,... it is fate", and does some crazy damage (4D12's+2D6+MODS+CHA), nearly Oneshotting the first character he charges...
So since from the description i look different from the others assailant( they all look like robbers and i'm like in Fullplate dark armor with an Horned helm...) and the kinda damage he did, they all presumed that they where facing a Boss/Mini Boss...
And then he explaisn to me that i din't make it to the next turn, since they ignored the others and focused solely on my Blackguard, and unleashed ALL their Daily powers...
They then clean up the rest and when everything is done, they start looting...
And instead of been explicit about it, the DM simply says "the gear you take from the corps looks familiar to you" and while one is making a roll to see what the DM is talking about, the other, that is the Crafter of the party, is allready disenchanting my gear, turning it in Magic dust or whatever...
So he tells me that i can come back to life, they are gonna rez me, but i will NOT HAVE ANY OF MY GEAR...
I ****ign exploded, and told him my mind, cause that was it, first the bullshittery at the jail and now this.
And for all the times they told me that the "DM is the equivalant of God and he decides everything", he couldn't simply say "you know what guys?, you din't loot his corpse and destroyed his equipement", Nope it was not "fair" to them...
I Slapped the everliving Mcshit out of him (well not really since he was still my friend, but i was Pissed at him), after that the campaign din't go anywhere anyways...
Shit that was a long one...
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Greyhawk isn't quite as high fantasy as FR, but Dragonlance is really the sword and sorcery setting. The big difference with Greyhawk is more that the gods don't get directly involved with mortal affairs quite as often and more of the conflict is between nations.
No, DragonLance is purely Heroic Fantasy. There aren't weird cults or other elements of Swords & Sorcery, not even like more modern examples such as The Witcher. Krynn is basically D&D's answer to Middle-Earth.
With some soap opera romance stuff thrown in.
What was the original topic of this thread again? lol
Greyhawk isn't quite as high fantasy as FR, but Dragonlance is really the sword and sorcery setting. The big difference with Greyhawk is more that the gods don't get directly involved with mortal affairs quite as often and more of the conflict is between nations.
No, DragonLance is purely Heroic Fantasy. There aren't weird cults or other elements of Swords & Sorcery, not even like more modern examples such as The Witcher. Krynn is basically D&D's answer to Middle-Earth.
With some soap opera romance stuff thrown in.
What was the original topic of this thread again? lol
Heh, to have been a fly on the wall during the sessions where they were play-testing the modules which formed the basis of the novels....I bet there was some frustration there.
Players have real life happening, but... during a remote session, one player had a crying baby with him and nobody could hear each other for the vast majority of the session. Same group had people missing for many sessions consecutively. That campaign was eventually cancelled. The furthest we got was a very dysfunctional town worried about dysfunctional goblins worried about dire beasts starting to show up everywhere - and oodles of random encounters with seemingly unrelated creatures. (I know of a DM who said that he has no random encounters. He said that all encounters have a specific purpose in his campaigns even if they seem random in the moment.)
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Yes the online gaming experience has ushered in a new breed of frustrating behaviors... often having little to do directly with D&D itself.
I learned years ago playing WoW to have my mic keyed so as to prevent every noise I made (or made near me) from being picked up. It has been frustrating having people that don't do this simple courtesy.
I think from this thread we can see that there are two categories of frustrating players.
One category are people whose in-game D&D behaviors can be frustrating/annoying/etc. These people are not a problem socially (usually), but are a problem in terms of the game play. The other category are people who are socially a problem, although they might be great in terms of being in the game.
Online gaming doesn't really change either of these basic things, I guess. If someone is going to have a problem character, it's going to be a problem regardless of whether you are in person or not. And inconsiderate behaviors change in how they are executed (mic behaviors rather than in person behaviors) but they come from the same root causes.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think from this thread we can see that there are two categories of frustrating players.
One category are people whose in-game D&D behaviors can be frustrating/annoying/etc. These people are not a problem socially (usually), but are a problem in terms of the game play. The other category are people who are socially a problem, although they might be great in terms of being in the game.
Online gaming doesn't really change either of these basic things, I guess. If someone is going to have a problem character, it's going to be a problem regardless of whether you are in person or not. And inconsiderate behaviors change in how they are executed (mic behaviors rather than in person behaviors) but they come from the same root causes.
I haven’t played much online, but basically I agree with you.
I think it's a personality issue (of the player) rather than the delivery method.
Online can exacerbate some things (and in person others). Different gaming systems (D&D, vs DCC, vs Rolemaster, etc.) can exacerbate things more or less. But basically, it is a personality issue -- if someone is going to be rude in person, they will be rude on line. If they are going to cheat in person, they will cheat online. And so on.
Now, online may make it easier (or harder) to do something like cheat or be rude... but the behavior is not caused by the delivery medium.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
One of the problems is that they have been bad about showing up lately. All I ask is that they put aside a few hours every few weeks. I did tell them that important things like work, school, and family should come before the game, but I was not saying that they should just run out on their commitment because they felt like doing something else. They have even used school as an excuse, even though I am taking the hardest program of all of them. It irritates me that only one of them reliably shows up and only one other has had good excuses. I actually set aside time to prepare for each session, and then it gets cancelled because over half the group has pathetic reasons not to attend. I told them they could just tell me if they did not want to play.
I also get the feeling that not all of my players respect me. I asked everyone to make a character sheet and share it with me before we started playing. Only half of the group actually did that. Now the half who did not submit sheets ask me questions like what their spellcasting modifiers are, even after several sessions, and forget what spells they chose. Those players have also failed to learn the basic rules I asked them all to learn. All I wanted was for the players to know how to make attacks and perform skill checks and saving throws. Two of the players have not even settled on their skills, even though that choice is important. Now that we have missed several sessions, I am sure those players will have forgotten how any of the rules worked.
I am sure online has made these things worse. The fact that they rarely see me other than when we play probably contributes to reduced guilt over skipping games. If we met in person I could also have overseen character creation and the addition of spells to their character sheets, which would have helped them know what they can do. But they are still being disrespectful, which would likely have harmed the game even in person.
I think you are right, online makes things more extreme in cases like this.
I think it sounds like for your group, depending on size, it might be worth trying a West Marches style game. Colville has a video explaining it but the basic premise is, you lay out the world and give them some adventure seeds, and you let the players decide who wants to tackle which adventure and when, they schedule it, they do all the organization, and then you just show up to DM. This might help you select for the more active/engaged players.
As for not sharing their PC with you -- I would say "No PC, no play." I need to see copies of each PC so that I know what game I am running and for whom.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I just had my problem player finally quit the family campaign.
He's family so I say this with love... but he is a grown man with the attention span of a toddler.
-He was on his 4th character since May 2020. None of his characters had died... he just got bored and rolled new characters. But then he wanted all the equipment and magic items from the old characters. When asked the "in-game" reason why character A would give his magic sword and all his gold to character B the response was, "Uh, cuz they are both mine and that's what I want."
- In a "dark fantasy" setting with no dragonborn, warforged, etc... he insisted on playing these races. Then threw a fit and rage quit when I pointed out - as had been addressed in zero session - they were not setting appropriate. Then other players forced me to let him back in the game and play his special creations. Then he abandoned the characters when they weren't as kewl as he expected.
- He hated role-playing and would loudly complain during any non-combat section of gameplay. However... he would also "backseat roleplay" other players... "Really? I find it hard to believe your character would do that. You make a big deal about being afraid of spiders and this is a run-down inn. Your character should have to do a sweep of the whole place to make sure no spiders. Unless you dont care about staying in character."
- He hated stealth or caution. Towards the end, while the thief would suggest waiting while he scouted ahead, he would just start triggering magical traps trying to get a TPK to let us know how bored he was with waiting.
- More than once, in the middle of combat: "Oh, I forgot. I wanted to go shopping for a different weapon before this adventure...". Cue throwing a fit and pausing the whole game while he weighed getting a greatsword or a greataxe.
- He refused to pay attention or participate in planning for missions or boss fights. Then, when playing out the plan, he would start questioning the plan, argue about every detail, refuse to have his character follow through on what his agreed role was supposed to be, derail the game, then complain about how we had been playing for 2 hours but accomplished nothing.
- It was his mission in life to kill critical NPCs. Another player spent months in game trying to make a contact in the thieves guild to get information on one of his enemies. - (Problem player attacks contact with spear the moment he arrives for clandestine meeting) - "He seemed shady to me."
This is an all-family campaign and I allowed him to continue to play with us because the rest of the family wanted to engage with him. He is... an anti-social guy. And with the pandemic we worry about him. We thought playing with us would be an opportunity for him to get some human contact. But we finally reached the point where the rest of the players green-lit me to start laying down the law and he quit pretty quickly. I feel guilty over how much more I enjoy the game now that he is gone.
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PC - Ethel - Human - Lvl 4 Necromancer - Undying Dragons * Serge Marshblade - Human - Lvl 5 Eldritch Knight - Hoard of the Dragon Queen
DM -(Homebrew) Heroes of Bardstown *Red Dead Annihilation: ToA *Where the Cold Winds Blow : DoIP * Covetous, Dragonish Thoughts: HotDQ * Red Wine, Black Rose: CoS * Greyhawk: Tides of War
- More than once, in the middle of combat: "Oh, I forgot. I wanted to go shopping for a different weapon before this adventure...". Cue throwing a fit and pausing the whole game while he weighed getting a greatsword or a greataxe.
For this one, couldn't you just have said "You forgot when you were in town, and there's no store here, you can't buy anything" or something similar?
- More than once, in the middle of combat: "Oh, I forgot. I wanted to go shopping for a different weapon before this adventure...". Cue throwing a fit and pausing the whole game while he weighed getting a greatsword or a greataxe.
For this one, couldn't you just have said "You forgot when you were in town, and there's no store here, you can't buy anything" or something similar?
Of course. That would be reasonable. But reasonable don't go around here. Not with this guy. That would just trigger him and the whole session would be shot as he would go into "I'm going to obstruct this game to punish you all for not giving in to me" mode.
Basically, imagine 4 people playing a game, and a 5th person there who has no interest in playingas part of the group, throws a fit whenever he doesn't get what he wants, and is intelligent enough to know exactly how to push everyone else's buttons... but the rest of the group feels it is their burden in life to try and involve this person no matter how awful he behaves. Until recently. And now he is gone and it is spectacular (but I feel guilty for enjoying his absence so much).
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PC - Ethel - Human - Lvl 4 Necromancer - Undying Dragons * Serge Marshblade - Human - Lvl 5 Eldritch Knight - Hoard of the Dragon Queen
DM -(Homebrew) Heroes of Bardstown *Red Dead Annihilation: ToA *Where the Cold Winds Blow : DoIP * Covetous, Dragonish Thoughts: HotDQ * Red Wine, Black Rose: CoS * Greyhawk: Tides of War
I also get the feeling that not all of my players respect me. I asked everyone to make a character sheet and share it with me before we started playing. Only half of the group actually did that. Now the half who did not submit sheets ask me questions like what their spellcasting modifiers are, even after several sessions, and forget what spells they chose. Those players have also failed to learn the basic rules I asked them all to learn. All I wanted was for the players to know how to make attacks and perform skill checks and saving throws. Two of the players have not even settled on their skills, even though that choice is important. Now that we have missed several sessions, I am sure those players will have forgotten how any of the rules worked.
I've had similar experiences from time to time. It's usually laziness more than anything else (although that is somewhat disrespectful anyway). My suggestion is to not start playing until everyone has their char sheet in order. If that means an hour less actually playing the first session, so be it. I still get questions from players like that afterwards, they'll forget stuff and won't always update their character sheets, but that's on them then - if they didn't select their spells, then they don't have spells; if they forgot to write down what they bought in town (and likely forgot to mark their expenses as well), they don't have it with them when they run into something aggressive and mean; if they didn't increase their saves or whatever, too bad. Makes me feel like an ass for enforcing this (or a kindergarten teacher for having to), but it'll get worse rather than better if I don't put my foot down. If they're lucky it's not an issue until close to the break or the end of the session, if not they might feel butthurt for 90 mins to two hours. No skin off my nose.
edit: I do make this fully clear well before the first session, while everyone's still working on their character. The players who do their homework are aware that if the first session is delayed, their less diligent co-players are to blame. They also know that I don't mind jokes or general out of character banter and if rules are unclear I'll allow some time to quickly look things up (or I'll make a temporary ruling if it takes too long and we'll hash it out afterwards), but if it's supposed to be on your character sheet it doesn't get a time-out.
- More than once, in the middle of combat: "Oh, I forgot. I wanted to go shopping for a different weapon before this adventure...". Cue throwing a fit and pausing the whole game while he weighed getting a greatsword or a greataxe.
For this one, couldn't you just have said "You forgot when you were in town, and there's no store here, you can't buy anything" or something similar?
Of course. That would be reasonable. But reasonable don't go around here. Not with this guy. That would just trigger him and the whole session would be shot as he would go into "I'm going to obstruct this game to punish you all for not giving in to me" mode.
Basically, imagine 4 people playing a game, and a 5th person there who has no interest in playingas part of the group, throws a fit whenever he doesn't get what he wants, and is intelligent enough to know exactly how to push everyone else's buttons... but the rest of the group feels it is their burden in life to try and involve this person no matter how awful he behaves. Until recently. And now he is gone and it is spectacular (but I feel guilty for enjoying his absence so much).
Sounds like an excellent reason not to DM for family.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think you are right, online makes things more extreme in cases like this.
I think it sounds like for your group, depending on size, it might be worth trying a West Marches style game. Colville has a video explaining it but the basic premise is, you lay out the world and give them some adventure seeds, and you let the players decide who wants to tackle which adventure and when, they schedule it, they do all the organization, and then you just show up to DM. This might help you select for the more active/engaged players.
As for not sharing their PC with you -- I would say "No PC, no play." I need to see copies of each PC so that I know what game I am running and for whom.
Thanks for the suggestion about the West Marches style game. I will definitely consider it. It seems like something that would suit them better.
Meh i don't considere it an Horror story, at least not for me, just a bullshit moment.
He made mistakes and instead of admitting it, he tried to bullshit his way with me, but it din't work, after that he became more concious of what he plans, and most of all he stopped assuming that Things would go how he planned...
Specially with our group, i don't even know if whatever we ever planned had gone the way it was supposed to be..., so i honestly don't have any clue why he thought it would be different once he became DM...
Ever since this( and another incident) i always assume that i must assume of nothing, and that Shit will go sideways at a moments notice(Murphy's Law is the name of the game), wich in my DM carreer since then has greatly helped (if Plan A doesn't work, there's still 25 letters to go by...)
WHat really pissed me is that up to that point everything was really under scrutiny, it was Rules-Lawyers festival, wich seeing our backgrounds is...to be expected (we are All 40k players before anything else), and 3 of our 5 man group where highly-competitive players, so it din't change much when playing DnD, even tho despite that (and been 4th Ed) we had no issue to RP, it was fluctuating between Lord of the Rings kind of seriousness and Epicness and...Monthy Python and Sacred Grail levels of stupid and ridiculous, but we loved it anyways.
So what pissed me (since i was still on that) is that the Rules lawyering was severe, there was Homebrewed stuff, but it had to be scrutinized and approved by everyone for it to work.
So when this bullshit happened and him as a DM was like "Gee i dunno what i could do to remedy this situation" is what pissed me off to no end.
As a DM i make mistakes, been a DM does not absolve you from mistakes, and if you make one, then apologize, take responsability, find the solution and move on.
Been a DM does not put you higher than the players, i do not believe that, and i loath those that thinks that because they are DM's suddenly they have a position of authority.
And i think that this is the crux of the issue, as DMing goes i think it kinda went to his head, and even tho all the "DM is the boss" bravado, he was still not up to tell the others "listen i've ****ed up, lets rewind that".
We still played togheter anyways and he worked at my Shop for 4-5 years more anyways( outside this incident he is a good lad, we where like Brothers, same kind of interests ,same humour), just that has a DM he took a step back and only did it occasionaly with other systemes like 13th Age, Vampires etc.
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"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
BAck in 4th in our group we would always switch DM and thus campaign each or so week, so that everyone that Dmed could play etc.
Now off course the game quality was..fluctuating, but still fun and humorous and we had some of the most epic laughing fits ever.
One time , one of them who also used to work at my shop for some allowance was DMing.
I played a Vryloka( Dhampir) Blackguard, geared it to be a Charger chassis (Horned helmet that deals +1D6 when you charge, feat that let you attack for a free action if you hit with a charge attack etc)
While in the first 7 sessions he was generous with the magic items, in the next 7 sessions, we hardly found or looted anything worth mentioning outside gold and jewels.
Now for some reasons i forgot since, my character ended up in some mess due to bad rolls, while we where at Inn to get our next job, wich was to escort a researcher to some ruins to get his hands on an artifact.
I was taken aside by the ones who runs the place, and they asked me to do something for them, cut donw a witness to one of their crimes, who's been locked away so that she won't get killed before the trial, and that the Guard is in it, so i just have to go there, tell the password to the guard, enter the cells, and stab the ***** and gtfo, simple right?...
So i go alone, since it was something only my character had to do, and everything goes as planned.
I give the password to the guard, he lets me in, and i search the cells, but... No sign of the broad...
I tell the DM that i "look inside the cell to see if there is any clue of where she might be", DM tells me that i don't find anything while i rolled like 18 perception.
So i think that something is wrong, or maybe its a setup...
I go back to the guard posted at the entrance and ask where the woman is, he tells me that she should be back there in the last cell...
And then the DM tells me that i feel a stab in my back, it was the woman who tried to shank me from behind, and i was Hella surprised, cause i checked the other cells, all where closed and the place was litteraly a corridor with 3 cells in it, so NO ******* place for her to hide and i wouldn't see...
He then tells me that she was still in her cell, just that i missed her, i then refute that i said i looked in the cell and even rolled an 18 "Yeah but you din't specify that you would Enter the cell and she was hidden behind the door", at this point i'm like "Dude...really? i had to spell out EVERY little detail when i do something?, if i say that i Loo IN the Cell, then i GO IN the ******* Cell to look IN the Cell"...
Off course a PAtrol comes by ask whats going on and i try to bullshit my way out, but rolls been ***** this evening, i fail.
So now i must fight 1 Vs 5...
Well it goes better than expected and when there's just One last guard left, here comes another patrol of 5 dudes..., and another one and another one.
I think i've cleared like 8, EIGTH ******* waves of 5 guards each time and EACH TIME they would show up when i'm about to kill the last one from the previous patrol...
Now the place we're at is on the side of the towns castle, and is litteraly a small bridge over the Moot with ONE door, so not really aplace where so many Patrols would randomly show up...
I ask when will these be over and the DM tells me dead pan "well once you've dropped dead of course...", so i understood that it was ONE of these, a BAttle/encounter that no matter what you are not supposed to win...
SO i throw in the towel, get arrested for, well mass murder...(killed 25 of the ****s) and imprisoned in the cells just behind me...Obviously frustrated, a 30min argument then starts, cause maybe i'm the one that did miss something but whne you say "I AM LOOKING INSIDE" it means that you actually go INSIDE the cell to look and search...
So then some arsehat assassin comes in the cells, kills the guard and the broad, and let me out of the cell..., and i'm like "Ok its a railroad..."
THen we end the session, and i was really ******* frustrated but whats done is done.
I tell them that due to work i will not be able to be there next week and the week after, so that they DON'T PLAY my character without me, be it in"Autopilot" or a DMPC, No one touches it(cause we had a case where one of the players was absent and someone else played the character...and ****ed with it, wich in th end led to some plot hook, but it was still a dick move)
They all agree and the Dm tells me that he has something planned for this.
2Weeks later...
The Dm comes to my place to help with the work...
And then he ask me "You did tell me you had an idea for a character no?", i slowly turn around and look at him and ask" what the hell happened?..."
See evne tho i had told them, the 4 of them, each individualy that i would not be there and that NO ONE is to play my character..., they still did...
The week after the previous game, for some reason they all Forgot that i wouldn't come, and none of them though about calling me to see if i would come or not.
So they started the session.
What happened is that my character to get out of the mess he was put in, i still had a job to do for the Shady arsesholes at the Inn to be out of "debt", so i had to accompany a group of assailants that was to intercept a group of meddlesome adventurers (you all see where i'm going with this?...)
So My character then goes and they reach the place, whee they set an Ambush for OUR group(the other players)...
In the DM mind, and according to his "MAsterplan" the ambush would go on, and there would bea bit of fights, a couyple of turns.
Then either my character or the PC's would realise whats going on, and my character would then turn ont he assailants and finish them off..., not a bad idea honestly...
Except... that the idiot, started a plan and lost control of the situation real quikc and DIN'T DO SHIT TO REMEDY IT.
He rolls INit, my Character rolls the highest of all the assailants and its a surprise round...
So obviously my Blackguard CHarger-Machine Murder train( and there's no brakes on the murder train) goes first and...Charges, logic...
DM crits, he then check my gear (we're lvl 8-9) and then realise that its a Fullblade that i have (think Dragonslayer from Berserk kind of sword..., deals D12 damages, in 4th your powers could deal 1[W] or 2[W] etc, [W] stand for the damage die that your weapon deal, and the way my Blackguard build worked was that when i Charge instead of a BAsic weapon attack that deals 1[W] dmg, i can use my at-will attack that deals 2[W] dmg instead when i charge...)
He looks at the sheets and then at the PC's players, then think "nah imma fudge it" and reroll the dice, and its...another Crit...
So he's like "welp,... it is fate", and does some crazy damage (4D12's+2D6+MODS+CHA), nearly Oneshotting the first character he charges...
So since from the description i look different from the others assailant( they all look like robbers and i'm like in Fullplate dark armor with an Horned helm...) and the kinda damage he did, they all presumed that they where facing a Boss/Mini Boss...
And then he explaisn to me that i din't make it to the next turn, since they ignored the others and focused solely on my Blackguard, and unleashed ALL their Daily powers...
They then clean up the rest and when everything is done, they start looting...
And instead of been explicit about it, the DM simply says "the gear you take from the corps looks familiar to you" and while one is making a roll to see what the DM is talking about, the other, that is the Crafter of the party, is allready disenchanting my gear, turning it in Magic dust or whatever...
So he tells me that i can come back to life, they are gonna rez me, but i will NOT HAVE ANY OF MY GEAR...
I ****ign exploded, and told him my mind, cause that was it, first the bullshittery at the jail and now this.
And for all the times they told me that the "DM is the equivalant of God and he decides everything", he couldn't simply say "you know what guys?, you din't loot his corpse and destroyed his equipement", Nope it was not "fair" to them...
I Slapped the everliving Mcshit out of him (well not really since he was still my friend, but i was Pissed at him), after that the campaign din't go anywhere anyways...
Shit that was a long one...
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
With some soap opera romance stuff thrown in.
What was the original topic of this thread again? lol
(Post deleted)
Heh, to have been a fly on the wall during the sessions where they were play-testing the modules which formed the basis of the novels....I bet there was some frustration there.
Players have real life happening, but... during a remote session, one player had a crying baby with him and nobody could hear each other for the vast majority of the session. Same group had people missing for many sessions consecutively. That campaign was eventually cancelled. The furthest we got was a very dysfunctional town worried about dysfunctional goblins worried about dire beasts starting to show up everywhere - and oodles of random encounters with seemingly unrelated creatures. (I know of a DM who said that he has no random encounters. He said that all encounters have a specific purpose in his campaigns even if they seem random in the moment.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Yes the online gaming experience has ushered in a new breed of frustrating behaviors... often having little to do directly with D&D itself.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I learned years ago playing WoW to have my mic keyed so as to prevent every noise I made (or made near me) from being picked up. It has been frustrating having people that don't do this simple courtesy.
I think from this thread we can see that there are two categories of frustrating players.
One category are people whose in-game D&D behaviors can be frustrating/annoying/etc. These people are not a problem socially (usually), but are a problem in terms of the game play. The other category are people who are socially a problem, although they might be great in terms of being in the game.
Online gaming doesn't really change either of these basic things, I guess. If someone is going to have a problem character, it's going to be a problem regardless of whether you are in person or not. And inconsiderate behaviors change in how they are executed (mic behaviors rather than in person behaviors) but they come from the same root causes.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I haven’t played much online, but basically I agree with you.
I think it's a personality issue (of the player) rather than the delivery method.
Online can exacerbate some things (and in person others). Different gaming systems (D&D, vs DCC, vs Rolemaster, etc.) can exacerbate things more or less. But basically, it is a personality issue -- if someone is going to be rude in person, they will be rude on line. If they are going to cheat in person, they will cheat online. And so on.
Now, online may make it easier (or harder) to do something like cheat or be rude... but the behavior is not caused by the delivery medium.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I have a few issues with my players.
One of the problems is that they have been bad about showing up lately. All I ask is that they put aside a few hours every few weeks. I did tell them that important things like work, school, and family should come before the game, but I was not saying that they should just run out on their commitment because they felt like doing something else. They have even used school as an excuse, even though I am taking the hardest program of all of them. It irritates me that only one of them reliably shows up and only one other has had good excuses. I actually set aside time to prepare for each session, and then it gets cancelled because over half the group has pathetic reasons not to attend. I told them they could just tell me if they did not want to play.
I also get the feeling that not all of my players respect me. I asked everyone to make a character sheet and share it with me before we started playing. Only half of the group actually did that. Now the half who did not submit sheets ask me questions like what their spellcasting modifiers are, even after several sessions, and forget what spells they chose. Those players have also failed to learn the basic rules I asked them all to learn. All I wanted was for the players to know how to make attacks and perform skill checks and saving throws. Two of the players have not even settled on their skills, even though that choice is important. Now that we have missed several sessions, I am sure those players will have forgotten how any of the rules worked.
I am sure online has made these things worse. The fact that they rarely see me other than when we play probably contributes to reduced guilt over skipping games. If we met in person I could also have overseen character creation and the addition of spells to their character sheets, which would have helped them know what they can do. But they are still being disrespectful, which would likely have harmed the game even in person.
I think you are right, online makes things more extreme in cases like this.
I think it sounds like for your group, depending on size, it might be worth trying a West Marches style game. Colville has a video explaining it but the basic premise is, you lay out the world and give them some adventure seeds, and you let the players decide who wants to tackle which adventure and when, they schedule it, they do all the organization, and then you just show up to DM. This might help you select for the more active/engaged players.
As for not sharing their PC with you -- I would say "No PC, no play." I need to see copies of each PC so that I know what game I am running and for whom.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I just had my problem player finally quit the family campaign.
He's family so I say this with love... but he is a grown man with the attention span of a toddler.
-He was on his 4th character since May 2020. None of his characters had died... he just got bored and rolled new characters. But then he wanted all the equipment and magic items from the old characters. When asked the "in-game" reason why character A would give his magic sword and all his gold to character B the response was, "Uh, cuz they are both mine and that's what I want."
- In a "dark fantasy" setting with no dragonborn, warforged, etc... he insisted on playing these races. Then threw a fit and rage quit when I pointed out - as had been addressed in zero session - they were not setting appropriate. Then other players forced me to let him back in the game and play his special creations. Then he abandoned the characters when they weren't as kewl as he expected.
- He hated role-playing and would loudly complain during any non-combat section of gameplay. However... he would also "backseat roleplay" other players... "Really? I find it hard to believe your character would do that. You make a big deal about being afraid of spiders and this is a run-down inn. Your character should have to do a sweep of the whole place to make sure no spiders. Unless you dont care about staying in character."
- He hated stealth or caution. Towards the end, while the thief would suggest waiting while he scouted ahead, he would just start triggering magical traps trying to get a TPK to let us know how bored he was with waiting.
- More than once, in the middle of combat: "Oh, I forgot. I wanted to go shopping for a different weapon before this adventure...". Cue throwing a fit and pausing the whole game while he weighed getting a greatsword or a greataxe.
- He refused to pay attention or participate in planning for missions or boss fights. Then, when playing out the plan, he would start questioning the plan, argue about every detail, refuse to have his character follow through on what his agreed role was supposed to be, derail the game, then complain about how we had been playing for 2 hours but accomplished nothing.
- It was his mission in life to kill critical NPCs. Another player spent months in game trying to make a contact in the thieves guild to get information on one of his enemies. - (Problem player attacks contact with spear the moment he arrives for clandestine meeting) - "He seemed shady to me."
This is an all-family campaign and I allowed him to continue to play with us because the rest of the family wanted to engage with him. He is... an anti-social guy. And with the pandemic we worry about him. We thought playing with us would be an opportunity for him to get some human contact. But we finally reached the point where the rest of the players green-lit me to start laying down the law and he quit pretty quickly. I feel guilty over how much more I enjoy the game now that he is gone.
PC - Ethel - Human - Lvl 4 Necromancer - Undying Dragons * Serge Marshblade - Human - Lvl 5 Eldritch Knight - Hoard of the Dragon Queen
DM - (Homebrew) Heroes of Bardstown * Red Dead Annihilation: ToA * Where the Cold Winds Blow : DoIP * Covetous, Dragonish Thoughts: HotDQ * Red Wine, Black Rose: CoS * Greyhawk: Tides of War
For this one, couldn't you just have said "You forgot when you were in town, and there's no store here, you can't buy anything" or something similar?
Of course. That would be reasonable. But reasonable don't go around here. Not with this guy. That would just trigger him and the whole session would be shot as he would go into "I'm going to obstruct this game to punish you all for not giving in to me" mode.
Basically, imagine 4 people playing a game, and a 5th person there who has no interest in playingas part of the group, throws a fit whenever he doesn't get what he wants, and is intelligent enough to know exactly how to push everyone else's buttons... but the rest of the group feels it is their burden in life to try and involve this person no matter how awful he behaves. Until recently. And now he is gone and it is spectacular (but I feel guilty for enjoying his absence so much).
PC - Ethel - Human - Lvl 4 Necromancer - Undying Dragons * Serge Marshblade - Human - Lvl 5 Eldritch Knight - Hoard of the Dragon Queen
DM - (Homebrew) Heroes of Bardstown * Red Dead Annihilation: ToA * Where the Cold Winds Blow : DoIP * Covetous, Dragonish Thoughts: HotDQ * Red Wine, Black Rose: CoS * Greyhawk: Tides of War
I've had similar experiences from time to time. It's usually laziness more than anything else (although that is somewhat disrespectful anyway). My suggestion is to not start playing until everyone has their char sheet in order. If that means an hour less actually playing the first session, so be it. I still get questions from players like that afterwards, they'll forget stuff and won't always update their character sheets, but that's on them then - if they didn't select their spells, then they don't have spells; if they forgot to write down what they bought in town (and likely forgot to mark their expenses as well), they don't have it with them when they run into something aggressive and mean; if they didn't increase their saves or whatever, too bad. Makes me feel like an ass for enforcing this (or a kindergarten teacher for having to), but it'll get worse rather than better if I don't put my foot down. If they're lucky it's not an issue until close to the break or the end of the session, if not they might feel butthurt for 90 mins to two hours. No skin off my nose.
edit: I do make this fully clear well before the first session, while everyone's still working on their character. The players who do their homework are aware that if the first session is delayed, their less diligent co-players are to blame. They also know that I don't mind jokes or general out of character banter and if rules are unclear I'll allow some time to quickly look things up (or I'll make a temporary ruling if it takes too long and we'll hash it out afterwards), but if it's supposed to be on your character sheet it doesn't get a time-out.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Sounds like an excellent reason not to DM for family.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Thanks for the suggestion about the West Marches style game. I will definitely consider it. It seems like something that would suit them better.
@Chaosrex my gods dude. That's not a frustrating moment, that's a horror story.
Meh i don't considere it an Horror story, at least not for me, just a bullshit moment.
He made mistakes and instead of admitting it, he tried to bullshit his way with me, but it din't work, after that he became more concious of what he plans, and most of all he stopped assuming that Things would go how he planned...
Specially with our group, i don't even know if whatever we ever planned had gone the way it was supposed to be..., so i honestly don't have any clue why he thought it would be different once he became DM...
Ever since this( and another incident) i always assume that i must assume of nothing, and that Shit will go sideways at a moments notice(Murphy's Law is the name of the game), wich in my DM carreer since then has greatly helped (if Plan A doesn't work, there's still 25 letters to go by...)
WHat really pissed me is that up to that point everything was really under scrutiny, it was Rules-Lawyers festival, wich seeing our backgrounds is...to be expected (we are All 40k players before anything else), and 3 of our 5 man group where highly-competitive players, so it din't change much when playing DnD, even tho despite that (and been 4th Ed) we had no issue to RP, it was fluctuating between Lord of the Rings kind of seriousness and Epicness and...Monthy Python and Sacred Grail levels of stupid and ridiculous, but we loved it anyways.
So what pissed me (since i was still on that) is that the Rules lawyering was severe, there was Homebrewed stuff, but it had to be scrutinized and approved by everyone for it to work.
So when this bullshit happened and him as a DM was like "Gee i dunno what i could do to remedy this situation" is what pissed me off to no end.
As a DM i make mistakes, been a DM does not absolve you from mistakes, and if you make one, then apologize, take responsability, find the solution and move on.
Been a DM does not put you higher than the players, i do not believe that, and i loath those that thinks that because they are DM's suddenly they have a position of authority.
And i think that this is the crux of the issue, as DMing goes i think it kinda went to his head, and even tho all the "DM is the boss" bravado, he was still not up to tell the others "listen i've ****ed up, lets rewind that".
We still played togheter anyways and he worked at my Shop for 4-5 years more anyways( outside this incident he is a good lad, we where like Brothers, same kind of interests ,same humour), just that has a DM he took a step back and only did it occasionaly with other systemes like 13th Age, Vampires etc.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)