Just disregarding everything else, they more or less double the number of skills you’re proficient in. Do skill checks come up so rarely that the difference between being proficient in 4-5 and being proficient in just 2-3 is meaningless? I can’t even wrap my head around that. Heck, I’ve taken the Skilled feat with several characters and it made an immense difference to me.
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As with all D&D features, the group at the table can make them matter more or matter less. There is no right or wrong here - just the preference at the table at that time. The same people can make backgrounds important in one campaign but irrelevant in another campaign. It's not set in stone. (It sometimes feels like WotC feels like they need to keep reminding us of that.)
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I find backgrounds to be a very useful tool in building backstories and solidifying PC motivations. Like if a character has a background as a criminal it can be very useful if your rogue is looking for specific info and contacts. If your fighter was a soldier they could have intimate knowledge on how the kingdom operates. If you have a character who has sailor background you have an easier time gaining passage on the water or information from other seafarers. If your DM doesn’t think backgrounds are relevant I think that’s a pretty significant opportunity missed. You can have a lot of fun weaving backgrounds into the overall story and use them for character development. Also depending on the background you can gains skills you might not have within the confines of your class, you can gain extra tools, proficiencies, and languages which can be pretty useful too!
There is, however, also a lot of redundancy between backgrounds and related classes, criminal and rogue, for example. Such overlap also makes them feel less shiny.
There is a lot of redundancy because that combination is literally if you want to play Rogue McRogue. The backgrounds are designed to either enhance your class or provide it with abilities it would not normally have. As an example, consider a Rogue with the Cloistered Scholar background that honed his stealth by sneaking into the library in the middle of the night to read books he wasn't allowed access to during the day.
Backgrounds are as dull or as interesting as you make them.
The best use of backgrounds is for inspiration for backstory. The mechanical features are pretty minor: usually a skill proficiency, a bit of starting equipment, and similar or less valuable bonuses. But the flaws, ideals, bonds, etc. are a gold mine.
I find backgrounds to be a very useful tool in building backstories and solidifying PC motivations. Like if a character has a background as a criminal it can be very useful if your rogue is looking for specific info and contacts. If your fighter was a soldier they could have intimate knowledge on how the kingdom operates. If you have a character who has sailor background you have an easier time gaining passage on the water or information from other seafarers. If your DM doesn’t think backgrounds are relevant I think that’s a pretty significant opportunity missed. You can have a lot of fun weaving backgrounds into the overall story and use them for character development. Also depending on the background you can gains skills you might not have within the confines of your class, you can gain extra tools, proficiencies, and languages which can be pretty useful too!
There is, however, also a lot of redundancy between backgrounds and related classes, criminal and rogue, for example. Such overlap also makes them feel less shiny.
On the flip side, it's a good opportunity to cast against type. Make a noble rogue, a criminal paladin, a folk hero wizard, or a barbarian sage.
I find backgrounds to be a very useful tool in building backstories and solidifying PC motivations. Like if a character has a background as a criminal it can be very useful if your rogue is looking for specific info and contacts. If your fighter was a soldier they could have intimate knowledge on how the kingdom operates. If you have a character who has sailor background you have an easier time gaining passage on the water or information from other seafarers. If your DM doesn’t think backgrounds are relevant I think that’s a pretty significant opportunity missed. You can have a lot of fun weaving backgrounds into the overall story and use them for character development. Also depending on the background you can gains skills you might not have within the confines of your class, you can gain extra tools, proficiencies, and languages which can be pretty useful too!
There is, however, also a lot of redundancy between backgrounds and related classes, criminal and rogue, for example. Such overlap also makes them feel less shiny.
The only redundancy is proficiency with thieves’ tools. The rogue can easily pick 4 rogueish skill proficiencies that aren’t Deception and Stealth from his options.
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I find backgrounds to be a very useful tool in building backstories and solidifying PC motivations. Like if a character has a background as a criminal it can be very useful if your rogue is looking for specific info and contacts. If your fighter was a soldier they could have intimate knowledge on how the kingdom operates. If you have a character who has sailor background you have an easier time gaining passage on the water or information from other seafarers. If your DM doesn’t think backgrounds are relevant I think that’s a pretty significant opportunity missed. You can have a lot of fun weaving backgrounds into the overall story and use them for character development. Also depending on the background you can gains skills you might not have within the confines of your class, you can gain extra tools, proficiencies, and languages which can be pretty useful too!
There is, however, also a lot of redundancy between backgrounds and related classes, criminal and rogue, for example. Such overlap also makes them feel less shiny.
There is a lot of redundancy because that combination is literally if you want to play Rogue McRogue. The backgrounds are designed to either enhance your class or provide it with abilities it would not normally have. As an example, consider a Rogue with the Cloistered Scholar background that honed his stealth by sneaking into the library in the middle of the night to read books he wasn't allowed access to during the day.
Backgrounds are as dull or as interesting as you make them.
Quote from pavilionaire>>On the flip side, it's a good opportunity to cast against type. Make a noble rogue, a criminal paladin, a folk hero wizard, or a barbarian sage.
Right, but Rogue McRogue, who should be the roguiest rogue of all, having started when they were young and stuck with it, ends up no more rogue-y and in fact less effective than someone whose background does not really match but is chosen first for benefits and explained second.
I disagree that is less effective, but I do agree that it should be a little more effective. Swapping thieves' tools proficiency to a choice between thieves' tools or maybe expertise in either Stealth or Deception would probably fix the issue.
I find backgrounds to be a very useful tool in building backstories and solidifying PC motivations. Like if a character has a background as a criminal it can be very useful if your rogue is looking for specific info and contacts. If your fighter was a soldier they could have intimate knowledge on how the kingdom operates. If you have a character who has sailor background you have an easier time gaining passage on the water or information from other seafarers. If your DM doesn’t think backgrounds are relevant I think that’s a pretty significant opportunity missed. You can have a lot of fun weaving backgrounds into the overall story and use them for character development. Also depending on the background you can gains skills you might not have within the confines of your class, you can gain extra tools, proficiencies, and languages which can be pretty useful too!
There is, however, also a lot of redundancy between backgrounds and related classes, criminal and rogue, for example. Such overlap also makes them feel less shiny.
There is a lot of redundancy because that combination is literally if you want to play Rogue McRogue. The backgrounds are designed to either enhance your class or provide it with abilities it would not normally have. As an example, consider a Rogue with the Cloistered Scholar background that honed his stealth by sneaking into the library in the middle of the night to read books he wasn't allowed access to during the day.
Backgrounds are as dull or as interesting as you make them.
Quote from pavilionaire>>On the flip side, it's a good opportunity to cast against type. Make a noble rogue, a criminal paladin, a folk hero wizard, or a barbarian sage.
Right, but Rogue McRogue, who should be the roguiest rogue of all, having started when they were young and stuck with it, ends up no more rogue-y and in fact less effective than someone whose background does not really match but is chosen first for benefits and explained second.
I disagree that is less effective, but I do agree that it should be a little more effective. Swapping thieves' tools proficiency to a choice between thieves' tools or maybe expertise in either Stealth or Deception would probably fix the issue.
Rogue McCriminal will be proficient in six skills pertinent to a life of larceny in all its forms - aside from Deception and Stealth, let’s say Sleight of Hand for pickpocketing, Acrobatics and/or Athletics for catburglary, Perception and/or Investigation to find the good stuff, Insight and/or Persuasion to deal with crime bosses who will have you sleeping with the fishes if they stop trusting you or no longer have use for you, or Intimidation when resorting to highway robbery. Wizard McCriminal will be proficient in four, but two of those will be tangentially related to a criminal lifestyle at best or won’t be as useful for his wizardly pursuits as others he might have chosen (Investigation works well either way, I’ll grant). Rogue McCharlatan will be just as proficient as Rogue McCriminal when it comes to illegal ways to increase one’s fortune and won’t have the Thieves’ Tools proficiency overlap. Personally I’d argue the False Identity feature is slightly less useful than Criminal Contact, however. Rogue McNoble will be somewhat less proficient than McCriminal and McCharlatan, but he’s in with the rich and powerful and that’s worth something too: means and opportunity to make a score will come easier for him.
And so on. Honestly, I don’t see the problem here. Just looking at it from a mechanical standpoint, leaving out roleplaying/flavour considerations, I see no reason to believe perceived overlaps between classes and backgrounds have a negative effect.
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I find backgrounds to be a very useful tool in building backstories and solidifying PC motivations. Like if a character has a background as a criminal it can be very useful if your rogue is looking for specific info and contacts. If your fighter was a soldier they could have intimate knowledge on how the kingdom operates. If you have a character who has sailor background you have an easier time gaining passage on the water or information from other seafarers. If your DM doesn’t think backgrounds are relevant I think that’s a pretty significant opportunity missed. You can have a lot of fun weaving backgrounds into the overall story and use them for character development. Also depending on the background you can gains skills you might not have within the confines of your class, you can gain extra tools, proficiencies, and languages which can be pretty useful too!
There is, however, also a lot of redundancy between backgrounds and related classes, criminal and rogue, for example. Such overlap also makes them feel less shiny.
There is a lot of redundancy because that combination is literally if you want to play Rogue McRogue. The backgrounds are designed to either enhance your class or provide it with abilities it would not normally have. As an example, consider a Rogue with the Cloistered Scholar background that honed his stealth by sneaking into the library in the middle of the night to read books he wasn't allowed access to during the day.
Backgrounds are as dull or as interesting as you make them.
Quote from pavilionaire>>On the flip side, it's a good opportunity to cast against type. Make a noble rogue, a criminal paladin, a folk hero wizard, or a barbarian sage.
Right, but Rogue McRogue, who should be the roguiest rogue of all, having started when they were young and stuck with it, ends up no more rogue-y and in fact less effective than someone whose background does not really match but is chosen first for benefits and explained second.
I disagree that is less effective, but I do agree that it should be a little more effective. Swapping thieves' tools proficiency to a choice between thieves' tools or maybe expertise in either Stealth or Deception would probably fix the issue.
Rogue McCriminal will be proficient in six skills pertinent to a life of larceny in all its forms - aside from Deception and Stealth, let’s say Sleight of Hand for pickpocketing, Acrobatics and/or Athletics for catburglary, Perception and/or Investigation to find the good stuff, Insight and/or Persuasion to deal with crime bosses who will have you sleeping with the fishes if they stop trusting you or no longer have use for you, or Intimidation when resorting to highway robbery. Wizard McCriminal will be proficient in four, but two of those will be tangentially related to a criminal lifestyle at best or won’t be as useful for his wizardly pursuits as others he might have chosen (Investigation works well either way, I’ll grant). Rogue McCharlatan will be just as proficient as Rogue McCriminal when it comes to illegal ways to increase one’s fortune and won’t have the Thieves’ Tools proficiency overlap. Personally I’d argue the False Identity feature is slightly less useful than Criminal Contact, however. Rogue McNoble will be somewhat less proficient than McCriminal and McCharlatan, but he’s in with the rich and powerful and that’s worth something too: means and opportunity to make a score will come easier for him.
And so on. Honestly, I don’t see the problem here. Just looking at it from a mechanical standpoint, leaving out roleplaying/flavour considerations, I see no reason to believe perceived overlaps between classes and backgrounds have a negative effect.
I think it works fine as is, so there's not a problem in my mind. I am just a fan of more customization options.
I think it works fine as is, so there's not a problem in my mind. I am just a fan of more customization options.
I mean, I’m fairly sure it was you who claimed that Rogue McRogue, the roguest rogue who ever rogued, not only doesn’t end up more effective as a rogue by taking the Criminal background but actually less so. I don’t see how that’s true, is what I’m saying. I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to more background options, but the spread we have right now is not a bad start.
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I think it works fine as is, so there's not a problem in my mind. I am just a fan of more customization options.
I mean, I’m fairly sure it was you who claimed that Rogue McRogue, the roguest rogue who ever rogued, not only doesn’t end up more effective as a rogue by taking the Criminal background but actually less so. I don’t see how that’s true, is what I’m saying. I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to more background options, but the spread we have right now is not a bad start.
That was me. Arcana is useful for handling magical traps. Religion or Arcana for avoiding curses. And both useful for impersonating a mage or priest. History for researching potential marks. Indiana Jones is a classic modern rogue and makes good use of all those skills.
Sure (though impersonating someone is better handled through Deception, with Religion or Arcana probably reducing the DC), but none of that makes a rogue with the Criminal background less effective as a rogue than one with another background - particularly if that other background doesn't have a feature that's relevant to roguish pursuits.
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Hmm aside from the obvious mechanical benefits, I just use it as a reminder of where my character is coming from when faced with a situation... I'll admit both my DM and I are really bad at using all the flavor text and more vague mechanics.
I think it works fine as is, so there's not a problem in my mind. I am just a fan of more customization options.
I mean, I’m fairly sure it was you who claimed that Rogue McRogue, the roguest rogue who ever rogued, not only doesn’t end up more effective as a rogue by taking the Criminal background but actually less so. I don’t see how that’s true, is what I’m saying. I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to more background options, but the spread we have right now is not a bad start.
That was me. Arcana is useful for handling magical traps. Religion or Arcana for avoiding curses. And both useful for impersonating a mage or priest. History for researching potential marks. Indiana Jones is a classic modern rogue and makes good use of all those skills.
Sure (though impersonating someone is better handled through Deception, with Religion or Arcana probably reducing the DC), but none of that makes a rogue with the Criminal background less effective as a rogue than one with another background - particularly if that other background doesn't have a feature that's relevant to roguish pursuits.
The criminal background gives you a means to contact a rogue's guild, even over long distances, something that simply belonging to such a guild would normally also provide. And since every rogue knowns thieves' cant, which is a rogue specific language that could only really have been learned via contact with a rogue's guild... that is nothing extra. Note the contact from the background is just that, too, not actual membership.
Not quite. The Criminal background gives you a contact who can contact an entire network for you. It’s more than being able to contact one specific guild, it’s more like having someone who can vouch for you or get you in touch with a criminal element largely regardless of where you are (presumably within reason, as determined by the DM), though limited by message travel time. This is a potentially huge advantage.
Thieves’ cant might be something you learned from a relative, not a guild. Or if you did learn it from a guild, that doesn’t mean they currently like you or want anything to do with you or that they hold any sway where you are or know anything helpful to let you contact another guild where you are. There is no such thing as “simply belonging to a rogues’ guild” regardless of background for starting characters either, just like a player can’t arbitrarily decide his character has connections with the nobility or a merchants’ guild or the local constabulary. Those things are fine if the DM allows them, but they are valuable qualities not inherently granted during character creation to anyone who just wants them.
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Coming from 1E and 3e, Backgrounds are a quick and dirty way of giving a player some roleplaying seeds. Coming from a 5E view, two skills to round out your character sheer.
Coming from 1E and 3e, Backgrounds are a quick and dirty way of giving a player some roleplaying seeds. Coming from a 5E view, two skills to round out your character sheer.
OR..
From an RP point of view, Backgrounds are a quick and dirty way of giving a player some roleplaying seeds.
From a power-player point of view, two skills to round out your character sheet.
I think it works fine as is, so there's not a problem in my mind. I am just a fan of more customization options.
I mean, I’m fairly sure it was you who claimed that Rogue McRogue, the roguest rogue who ever rogued, not only doesn’t end up more effective as a rogue by taking the Criminal background but actually less so. I don’t see how that’s true, is what I’m saying. I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to more background options, but the spread we have right now is not a bad start.
That was me. Arcana is useful for handling magical traps. Religion or Arcana for avoiding curses. And both useful for impersonating a mage or priest. History for researching potential marks. Indiana Jones is a classic modern rogue and makes good use of all those skills.
Sure (though impersonating someone is better handled through Deception, with Religion or Arcana probably reducing the DC), but none of that makes a rogue with the Criminal background less effective as a rogue than one with another background - particularly if that other background doesn't have a feature that's relevant to roguish pursuits.
The criminal background gives you a means to contact a rogue's guild, even over long distances, something that simply belonging to such a guild would normally also provide. And since every rogue knowns thieves' cant, which is a rogue specific language that could only really have been learned via contact with a rogue's guild... that is nothing extra. Note the contact from the background is just that, too, not actual membership.
Not quite. The Criminal background gives you a contact who can contact an entire network for you. It’s more than being able to contact one specific guild, it’s more like having someone who can vouch for you or get you in touch with a criminal element largely regardless of where you are (presumably within reason, as determined by the DM), though limited by message travel time. This is a potentially huge advantage.
Thieves’ cant might be something you learned from a relative, not a guild. Or if you did learn it from a guild, that doesn’t mean they currently like you or want anything to do with you or that they hold any sway where you are or know anything helpful to let you contact another guild where you are. There is no such thing as “simply belonging to a rogues’ guild” regardless of background for starting characters either, just like a player can’t arbitrarily decide his character has connections with the nobility or a merchants’ guild or the local constabulary. Those things are fine if the DM allows them, but they are valuable qualities not inherently granted during character creation to anyone who just wants them.
What do you think a thieves' guild is? Just a couple thugs operating out of a basement? Any decent thieves' guild has and is a network. If your character does not belong to such a guild, how in bloody blazes did they learn thieves' cant? Not like it is taught to just anyone. If it was it would be useless. The city guard would all be taught it and it would thus not serve its purpose at all.
Everything else on the list could have been self taught, except for that.
Again, having been part of a guild at some point in your past doesn’t mean you’re a member of whatever guild locally holds sway in good standing now. There could have been a falling out, or it could have been in another part of the world entirely, or maybe the whole organisation got nicked by the long arm of the law and you barely got away. And you could have learned Thieves’ Cant from your larcenous pa or your dodgy uncle with the understanding you were going to join the guild as a full member later. Knowing Thieves’ Cant is not a guarantee of having access to a thieves’ guild and its resources when you start your adventuring career as a 1st level PC. And a thieves’ guild doesn’t necessarily have useful contacts halfway across a continent or on the other side of the ocean. The Criminal Contact on the other hand explicitly can be contacted via sailors or caravans.
That aside, the whole notion of a Thieves’ Cant that is used all over the world yet is never leaked is a game conceit. It’s not realistic or plausible to begin with.
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I think it works fine as is, so there's not a problem in my mind. I am just a fan of more customization options.
I mean, I’m fairly sure it was you who claimed that Rogue McRogue, the roguest rogue who ever rogued, not only doesn’t end up more effective as a rogue by taking the Criminal background but actually less so. I don’t see how that’s true, is what I’m saying. I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to more background options, but the spread we have right now is not a bad start.
That was me. Arcana is useful for handling magical traps. Religion or Arcana for avoiding curses. And both useful for impersonating a mage or priest. History for researching potential marks. Indiana Jones is a classic modern rogue and makes good use of all those skills.
Sure (though impersonating someone is better handled through Deception, with Religion or Arcana probably reducing the DC), but none of that makes a rogue with the Criminal background less effective as a rogue than one with another background - particularly if that other background doesn't have a feature that's relevant to roguish pursuits.
The criminal background gives you a means to contact a rogue's guild, even over long distances, something that simply belonging to such a guild would normally also provide. And since every rogue knowns thieves' cant, which is a rogue specific language that could only really have been learned via contact with a rogue's guild... that is nothing extra. Note the contact from the background is just that, too, not actual membership.
Not quite. The Criminal background gives you a contact who can contact an entire network for you. It’s more than being able to contact one specific guild, it’s more like having someone who can vouch for you or get you in touch with a criminal element largely regardless of where you are (presumably within reason, as determined by the DM), though limited by message travel time. This is a potentially huge advantage.
Thieves’ cant might be something you learned from a relative, not a guild. Or if you did learn it from a guild, that doesn’t mean they currently like you or want anything to do with you or that they hold any sway where you are or know anything helpful to let you contact another guild where you are. There is no such thing as “simply belonging to a rogues’ guild” regardless of background for starting characters either, just like a player can’t arbitrarily decide his character has connections with the nobility or a merchants’ guild or the local constabulary. Those things are fine if the DM allows them, but they are valuable qualities not inherently granted during character creation to anyone who just wants them.
What do you think a thieves' guild is? Just a couple thugs operating out of a basement? Any decent thieves' guild has and is a network. If your character does not belong to such a guild, how in bloody blazes did they learn thieves' cant? Not like it is taught to just anyone. If it was it would be useless. The city guard would all be taught it and it would thus not serve its purpose at all.
Everything else on the list could have been self taught, except for that.
Again, having been part of a guild at some point in your past doesn’t mean you’re a member of whatever guild locally holds sway in good standing now. There could have been a falling out, or it could have been in another part of the world entirely, or maybe the whole organisation got nicked by the long arm of the law and you barely got away. And you could have learned Thieves’ Cant from your larcenous pa or your dodgy uncle with the understanding you were going to join the guild as a full member later. Knowing Thieves’ Cant is not a guarantee of having access to a thieves’ guild and its resources when you start your adventuring career as a 1st level PC. And a thieves’ guild doesn’t necessarily have useful contacts halfway across a continent or on the other side of the ocean. The Criminal Contact on the other hand explicitly can be contacted via sailors or caravans.
That aside, the whole notion of a Thieves’ Cant that is used all over the world yet is never leaked is a game conceit. It’s not realistic or plausible to begin with.
If you had a falling out with your guild, then you are insisting that all rogues without a criminal background start out enemies of the guild that trained them, since such guilds do not normally let members simply 'walk away' despite knowing their secrets (again, particularly thieves' cant, which the stray member could teach to enemies of the guild).
You are right about the same thieves' cant being used all over the world. Personally in my campaigns, each such guild has their own version. However, it is actually possible for there to be a thieves' guild that is global in scope. But similarly, the benefit of the criminal background needs to be taken with a grain of salt. It technically says that you know how to get messages to your contact 'even over great distances' with no stated limits on that. So it gives you... telepathy? Or a person specific at will sending ability? Knowing how to get messages to them when you are in the remote wilderness far from civilization almost certainly means knowing to simply get back to civilization yourself, then make contact, just as any regularly trained rogue would have to do. The alternative would be that a criminal organization has far better communications capacity than any other listed agency. Even if just sending the message through a caravan master or equivalent, it does not mean a convenient qualifying caravan wanders through whenever you want to send a message, nor that the message is instantly delivered.
I’m not insisting all rogues without the criminal background start out as enemies of a guild. I’m saying there’s all sorts of possible explanations as to how you learned Thieves’ Cant yet are currently not in a position to benefit from having at some point in the past had a connection with a thieves’ guild. And knowing how to get messages to your faraway contact is not the same as being able to. You may know just the person to hand a message to, but that doesn’t mean this person is magically available when you need him.
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I’m not insisting all rogues without the criminal background start out as enemies of a guild. I’m saying there’s all sorts of possible explanations as to how you learned Thieves’ Cant yet are currently not in a position to benefit from having at some point in the past had a connection with a thieves’ guild. And knowing how to get messages to your faraway contact is not the same as being able to. You may know just the person to hand a message to, but that doesn’t mean this person is magically available when you need him.
Right, but the simplest explanation is that you are actually still a member unless the player really does not want their character to be a member. But in that case why take a background that gives essentially that?
What you seem to be insisting is that the mere existence of the background as an option means that the DM has to contrive an explanation for the character knowing Thieves' Cant and that being a useful thing, just to make taking the background meaningful. It seems very backwards.
What? No. What I’m insisting is that knowing Thieves’ Cant doesn’t mean you somehow get all or at least most of the benefits of the Criminal background without actually taking the Criminal background. Those benefits don’t overlap with the Rogue class, they complement it.
Rogues know Thieves’ Cant. Rogues who are part of a thieves’ guild, but also Rogues who don’t have a thieves’ guild in their backstory. Even Rogues who are 5th generation city watch know Thieves’ Cant. It’s a conceit of the game. It doesn’t mean or imply anything more than that.
Putting in your backstory that your parents are nobles doesn’t give you the benefits of the Noble background. Putting in your backstory that you come from a long line of entertainers doesn’t give you the benefits of the By Popular Demand feature. Similarly, just knowing Thieves’ Cant or putting a dodgy cousin twice removed with thieves’ guild connections in your backstory doesn’t entitle you to any in-game benefits related to the Criminal background. That’s just not how it works. Maybe your DM is fine giving out extra benefits related to a well-crafted backstory regardless of the background you take as part of character creation, that can be perfectly reasonable - but it’s not something you inherently get.
You seem to be saying that knowing Thieves’ Cant implies there’s a thieves’ guild in your backstory that taught you this. That isn’t correct, but even if it was having a thieves’ guild in your backstory still wouldn’t mean you’d automatically get a proxy version of the Criminal background’s benefits without actually taking the Criminal background.
Just disregarding everything else, they more or less double the number of skills you’re proficient in. Do skill checks come up so rarely that the difference between being proficient in 4-5 and being proficient in just 2-3 is meaningless? I can’t even wrap my head around that. Heck, I’ve taken the Skilled feat with several characters and it made an immense difference to me.
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As with all D&D features, the group at the table can make them matter more or matter less. There is no right or wrong here - just the preference at the table at that time. The same people can make backgrounds important in one campaign but irrelevant in another campaign. It's not set in stone. (It sometimes feels like WotC feels like they need to keep reminding us of that.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
There is a lot of redundancy because that combination is literally if you want to play Rogue McRogue. The backgrounds are designed to either enhance your class or provide it with abilities it would not normally have. As an example, consider a Rogue with the Cloistered Scholar background that honed his stealth by sneaking into the library in the middle of the night to read books he wasn't allowed access to during the day.
Backgrounds are as dull or as interesting as you make them.
The best use of backgrounds is for inspiration for backstory. The mechanical features are pretty minor: usually a skill proficiency, a bit of starting equipment, and similar or less valuable bonuses. But the flaws, ideals, bonds, etc. are a gold mine.
On the flip side, it's a good opportunity to cast against type. Make a noble rogue, a criminal paladin, a folk hero wizard, or a barbarian sage.
In a drop-in, drop-out campaign I played for about 3 weeks, I played a Warlock Hexblade with the Entertainer background.
Everyone was convinced I was a bard until I started dropping Eldritch Blasts.
Backgrounds are extremely useful. DMs and Players who are "Roleplaying" vs "Roll-playing" might disagree,
Turns out there are characters in the world with the Performance skill that aren't Bards.
The only redundancy is proficiency with thieves’ tools. The rogue can easily pick 4 rogueish skill proficiencies that aren’t Deception and Stealth from his options.
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I disagree that is less effective, but I do agree that it should be a little more effective. Swapping thieves' tools proficiency to a choice between thieves' tools or maybe expertise in either Stealth or Deception would probably fix the issue.
Rogue McCriminal will be proficient in six skills pertinent to a life of larceny in all its forms - aside from Deception and Stealth, let’s say Sleight of Hand for pickpocketing, Acrobatics and/or Athletics for catburglary, Perception and/or Investigation to find the good stuff, Insight and/or Persuasion to deal with crime bosses who will have you sleeping with the fishes if they stop trusting you or no longer have use for you, or Intimidation when resorting to highway robbery.
Wizard McCriminal will be proficient in four, but two of those will be tangentially related to a criminal lifestyle at best or won’t be as useful for his wizardly pursuits as others he might have chosen (Investigation works well either way, I’ll grant).
Rogue McCharlatan will be just as proficient as Rogue McCriminal when it comes to illegal ways to increase one’s fortune and won’t have the Thieves’ Tools proficiency overlap. Personally I’d argue the False Identity feature is slightly less useful than Criminal Contact, however.
Rogue McNoble will be somewhat less proficient than McCriminal and McCharlatan, but he’s in with the rich and powerful and that’s worth something too: means and opportunity to make a score will come easier for him.
And so on. Honestly, I don’t see the problem here. Just looking at it from a mechanical standpoint, leaving out roleplaying/flavour considerations, I see no reason to believe perceived overlaps between classes and backgrounds have a negative effect.
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I think it works fine as is, so there's not a problem in my mind. I am just a fan of more customization options.
I mean, I’m fairly sure it was you who claimed that Rogue McRogue, the roguest rogue who ever rogued, not only doesn’t end up more effective as a rogue by taking the Criminal background but actually less so. I don’t see how that’s true, is what I’m saying. I certainly wouldn’t be opposed to more background options, but the spread we have right now is not a bad start.
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Sure (though impersonating someone is better handled through Deception, with Religion or Arcana probably reducing the DC), but none of that makes a rogue with the Criminal background less effective as a rogue than one with another background - particularly if that other background doesn't have a feature that's relevant to roguish pursuits.
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Hmm aside from the obvious mechanical benefits, I just use it as a reminder of where my character is coming from when faced with a situation... I'll admit both my DM and I are really bad at using all the flavor text and more vague mechanics.
Not quite. The Criminal background gives you a contact who can contact an entire network for you. It’s more than being able to contact one specific guild, it’s more like having someone who can vouch for you or get you in touch with a criminal element largely regardless of where you are (presumably within reason, as determined by the DM), though limited by message travel time. This is a potentially huge advantage.
Thieves’ cant might be something you learned from a relative, not a guild. Or if you did learn it from a guild, that doesn’t mean they currently like you or want anything to do with you or that they hold any sway where you are or know anything helpful to let you contact another guild where you are. There is no such thing as “simply belonging to a rogues’ guild” regardless of background for starting characters either, just like a player can’t arbitrarily decide his character has connections with the nobility or a merchants’ guild or the local constabulary. Those things are fine if the DM allows them, but they are valuable qualities not inherently granted during character creation to anyone who just wants them.
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Coming from 1E and 3e, Backgrounds are a quick and dirty way of giving a player some roleplaying seeds. Coming from a 5E view, two skills to round out your character sheer.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
OR..
From an RP point of view, Backgrounds are a quick and dirty way of giving a player some roleplaying seeds.
From a power-player point of view, two skills to round out your character sheet.
:-)
Again, having been part of a guild at some point in your past doesn’t mean you’re a member of whatever guild locally holds sway in good standing now. There could have been a falling out, or it could have been in another part of the world entirely, or maybe the whole organisation got nicked by the long arm of the law and you barely got away. And you could have learned Thieves’ Cant from your larcenous pa or your dodgy uncle with the understanding you were going to join the guild as a full member later. Knowing Thieves’ Cant is not a guarantee of having access to a thieves’ guild and its resources when you start your adventuring career as a 1st level PC. And a thieves’ guild doesn’t necessarily have useful contacts halfway across a continent or on the other side of the ocean. The Criminal Contact on the other hand explicitly can be contacted via sailors or caravans.
That aside, the whole notion of a Thieves’ Cant that is used all over the world yet is never leaked is a game conceit. It’s not realistic or plausible to begin with.
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I’m not insisting all rogues without the criminal background start out as enemies of a guild. I’m saying there’s all sorts of possible explanations as to how you learned Thieves’ Cant yet are currently not in a position to benefit from having at some point in the past had a connection with a thieves’ guild. And knowing how to get messages to your faraway contact is not the same as being able to. You may know just the person to hand a message to, but that doesn’t mean this person is magically available when you need him.
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What? No. What I’m insisting is that knowing Thieves’ Cant doesn’t mean you somehow get all or at least most of the benefits of the Criminal background without actually taking the Criminal background. Those benefits don’t overlap with the Rogue class, they complement it.
Rogues know Thieves’ Cant. Rogues who are part of a thieves’ guild, but also Rogues who don’t have a thieves’ guild in their backstory. Even Rogues who are 5th generation city watch know Thieves’ Cant. It’s a conceit of the game. It doesn’t mean or imply anything more than that.
Putting in your backstory that your parents are nobles doesn’t give you the benefits of the Noble background. Putting in your backstory that you come from a long line of entertainers doesn’t give you the benefits of the By Popular Demand feature. Similarly, just knowing Thieves’ Cant or putting a dodgy cousin twice removed with thieves’ guild connections in your backstory doesn’t entitle you to any in-game benefits related to the Criminal background. That’s just not how it works. Maybe your DM is fine giving out extra benefits related to a well-crafted backstory regardless of the background you take as part of character creation, that can be perfectly reasonable - but it’s not something you inherently get.
You seem to be saying that knowing Thieves’ Cant implies there’s a thieves’ guild in your backstory that taught you this. That isn’t correct, but even if it was having a thieves’ guild in your backstory still wouldn’t mean you’d automatically get a proxy version of the Criminal background’s benefits without actually taking the Criminal background.
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