EDIT: Aight, since everyone has decided to take my post as an excuse to go out and bat for a community serving corporation, let me approach my point from a different angle.
The DDB dev team uses graph data to track the most popular features of their website by all users, and then based on this data makes decisions about where to put development resources. This has resulted in the neglect of features that drew in original paying supporters for their site in the first place. Most of the "users" that DDB bases their data off are players leeching off of their DMs legendary bundle and master sub.
Myself, and all other DMs i have regular contact with, am unhappy about this, as we opened our wallets for DDB (despite owning most of the books physically between us already) with the intention of investing in its future and seeing more of what drew us in originally. The homebrewing tools that were a big appeal of the site for us, have received little to no attention over the years, with numerous known and reported problems (even ones that could be fixed in minutes like the inability to create homebrew ammunition) going unaddressed, and existing tools that don't even need to be developed further simply not being able to be used in certain places.
The point of my post was to request that paying customers be given a vote, upon purchase, of what direction would best benefit them for the website to be taken in. Record the amount they paid, and note what they want more of for the site. Thats all. Not a demand on what the corporation should spend all their money on with no regard for a functional business model (as many seem to have assumed i was dumb enough to suggest). DDB would not be what it is today without its early adopters, who likely came in support of a platform that could seamlessly allow their players to plug and play with their homebrew, as I and my cohort of DMs did.
And for the record, DDB is not operated by a faceless organisation. It is run by Fandom, a company that lives and dies on community interaction. So forgive me if i, a paying customer (upwards of $500AUD spent) who has sat patiently and asked nicely for years, have had enough of my interests being ignored.
Once you've decide to give someone your money for a product or service that you deem valuable enough to warrant the giving of your money, it's none of your business what they do with it.
We have no understanding of the inner workings of the business, their true overheads. Full costings of staff, how much is their electric bills? Rent or mortgages? What’s the true incomes? We can’t tell them where to send our money when we have no idea what faction or their company needs the investment or the bills paid.
That's generally not how businesses work. You pay for a product or service. They answer to a variety of regulatory bodies. If they decide to disclose anything to anyone beyond that, they're doing more than what's required of them.
The "service i paid for" was not and is not the digital books. I owned all of them physically prior to DDB, even had bought duplicates of the core 3 books over the years, and thus had no need for the discount content. The "service" i came for and gave them money on the pretence of was the digital character sheet and seamless homebrew integration. At the time, these were the only things they had on offer, and thus the only proof of concept that could be used to judge their "service" at the time. But instead of improving and expanding on what they already had, they have assembled a hodge podge of other tools, one of which they have monetized (digital dice) and the other of which doesnt even display PC information in real time (encounter builder). So forgive me if im upset about the investment i made into an up and coming website not yielding results.
In my ohh so humble opinion, the only people they should be answering to are the ones funnelling money into their website. The point of my post was to make my voice heard, and potentially have a say in the direction the site moves in the future. Not to get flamed cause people assumed i don't understand how "profit" works, and as someone who runs a small business, "profit" works by keeping your highest paying customers happy.
What happens when someone else who has spent upwards of $500USD doesn't like your idea? (And I, who has bought every "book" DNDB has put out, don't because I believe that way leads to madness, chaos and loss of corporate direction and vision.)
And what about those who spend large sums but don't hang out on the forums (me) because they don't want to hear all the gruff and blunder? Or those who spend the money but aren't knowledgeable enough to realize the amount of expertise, etc. to implement their chosen feature? And what about...
And that's the problem. You'd have to show more concrete evidence beyond the anecdotal to steer just about any corporation in any direction. From my (admittedly limited) time here, I've noticed that it's mostly the same small set of individuals who typically post in the forums. Even the larger 20+ page threads tend to only have around 65k views. Arethose unique views by unique visitors or just views? Even if they are unique views, 65k is a small subset of DNDB users (if I remember my numbers correctly. Which I probably don't).
Heck, the roadmap thread only has 45K views.
And we don't know what kind of input they're getting from other directions (emails, etc.) or the demands/limitations/stipulations of WotC.
My point being (which is coming across much harsher than I intended even though I'm trying not to. My tone is conversational, NOT confrontational) is that there wouldn't be enough meaningful input by the userbase. Even the high spending user base. I'd rather that those who know the resources available, how they are distributed/assigned, what is needed in one area to build on another area, etc., etc. make those decisions.
People "leeching off" legendary bundles and master tier subscriptions still drive traffic and are part of the reason those sales are made. Content sharing is not a whimsical decision from DDB, it's a business decision based on what's best for their bottom line. Allocating resources to popular features is meant to generate maximum interest from players in general, because that's financially the most sound metric. Now, you say that you don't demand they toss out their business plan with your suggestion but the simple fact is that in part it does just that.
I have no problems with your desire for the homebrew tools getting a bit more love. On the contrary, I wholeheartedly support it. But putting resource allocation to a popular vote among users, rather than letting the company's best interests drive that decision, is not the way.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
What happens when someone else who has spent upwards of $500USD doesn't like your idea? (And I, who has bought every "book" DNDB has put out, don't because I believe that way leads to madness, chaos and loss of corporate direction and vision.)
And what about those who spend large sums but don't hang out on the forums (me) because they don't want to hear all the gruff and blunder? Or those who spend the money but aren't knowledgeable enough to realize the amount of expertise, etc. to implement their chosen feature? And what about...
And that's the problem. You'd have to show more concrete evidence beyond the anecdotal to steer just about any corporation in any direction. From my (admittedly limited) time here, I've noticed that it's mostly the same small set of individuals who typically post in the forums. Even the larger 20+ page threads tend to only have around 65k views. Arethose unique views by unique visitors or just views? Even if they are unique views, 65k is a small subset of DNDB users (if I remember my numbers correctly. Which I probably don't).
Heck, the roadmap thread only has 45K views.
And we don't know what kind of input they're getting from other directions (emails, etc.) or the demands/limitations/stipulations of WotC.
My point being (which is coming across much harsher than I intended even though I'm trying not to. My tone is conversational, NOT confrontational) is that there wouldn't be enough meaningful input by the userbase. Even the high spending user base. I'd rather that those who know the resources available, how they are distributed/assigned, what is needed in one area to build on another area, etc., etc. make those decisions.
If the current direction of the platform had been dictated solely by people who had outspent me on it, i would of course still be upset, but i wouldnt be up in arms all through the forums over it, because at least then i could understand that democracy has done its job. At present, they have (as they have confirmed in their development updates, which i watch religiously for the day they finally mention that fabled homebrew overhaul they have stopped talking about) made all their development decisions based on data graphs from user interaction, and probably profit as well (likely the source of digital dice, for example).
As to people not knowing whats best for the site as a whole, thats besides the point for me, and if done in the right way, wouldnt be a problem. If the devs provided a multiple choice poll after every purchase, with options consisted solely from existing and planned features, then the idea of people not being "knowledgeable enough to realize the amount of expertise, etc. to implement their chosen feature" is of little concern because the only options they can choose from are planned and existing features.
And you are right about vocal community vs the community as a whole, but again i feel that may be besides the point as said vocal community are usually the most pationate fans, with the most interest and investment in the service. If someone doesnt care enough to come to the forums to voice their opinion, then their opinion goes unheard.
WotC probably just take a large portion of their profits and care little about anything else, besides not offending snowflakes, im sure they right 3 paragraph essays into every partner contract about that. So i see little chance that WotC have any significant say in development of tools for the platform.
In my opinion, which all of this is in case i havent stated it, the most meaningful direction the platform could go in is the one where the paying customers get what they come for. I understand there is a profit and loss to be considered in all decsions, and with its current model, the homebrew tools aren't a source of income for DDB. But we have subscription tiers. I wouldnt complain if advanced homebrew tools got locked behind the master tier, if anything id welcome it if it meant they would develop said advanced homebrew tools. Im not blind to the business side of this model, im saying DDB seem to be blind to the community driven aspects of their platform.
People "leeching off" legendary bundles and master tier subscriptions still drive traffic and are part of the reason those sales are made. Content sharing is not a whimsical decision from DDB, it's a business decision based on what's best for their bottom line. Allocating resources to popular features is meant to generate maximum interest from players in general, because that's financially the most sound metric. Now, you say that you don't demand they toss out their business plan with your suggestion but the simple fact is that in part it does just that.
I have no problems with your desire for the homebrew tools getting a bit more love. On the contrary, I wholeheartedly support it. But putting resource allocation to a popular vote among users, rather than letting the company's best interests drive that decision, is not the way.
Im not speaking out against content sharing, i think its an important part of the platform and applaud its presence. Im speaking out against the way they gather their data to determine what tools get developed first. As i said in my previous comment, i want paying customers to have a more front loaded say in what features they want/come for. Im not saying they need to abandon their business model, heck, lock advanced homebrew tools behind the master tier if thats what it takes. I just dont want their direction to be fuelled primarily by the casual players who dont pay a cent. Let the people who support the platform have a say in what comes first, thats all im asking for.
How do you differentiate a customer that buys a single feature in a single book of the Marketplace because they wanted to play that One Grung versus the player that pays a monthly fee so they can have more character slots versus the player that has the legendary bundle and uses content sharing in multiple campaigns?
Or are you talking a single vote per purchase and then what would be important enough to vote on?
I think it would take a full time job to even do the analytics on who they should listen to if they have to weight everything against how much value each of the customers have provided because of how much they spent. And it's pretty pointless on the bottom line anyway.
This is a publicly traded company. If you want to make your voice heard and your decisions count, you'll need to be a Stockholder. Once a company is publicly traded, nothing else matters more than the bottom line and the profit margin. I guess in a sense, every time you buy something you vote on the bottom line... so... there is that. But for the company to keep doing well and keep putting out more features, people have to make purchases every month. Legendary bundles do not do DNDBeyond any good the month after you buy them, only the one where you do. As such, expecting a company to spend a lot of development dollars on a system where they can never make a dime from it is wishful thinking at best. Be glad we have what we have. Every now and then we might get some more support on that, but make sure your expectations are in line with the reality of what kind of company this is.
People "leeching off" legendary bundles and master tier subscriptions still drive traffic and are part of the reason those sales are made. Content sharing is not a whimsical decision from DDB, it's a business decision based on what's best for their bottom line. Allocating resources to popular features is meant to generate maximum interest from players in general, because that's financially the most sound metric. Now, you say that you don't demand they toss out their business plan with your suggestion but the simple fact is that in part it does just that.
I have no problems with your desire for the homebrew tools getting a bit more love. On the contrary, I wholeheartedly support it. But putting resource allocation to a popular vote among users, rather than letting the company's best interests drive that decision, is not the way.
Im not speaking out against content sharing, i think its an important part of the platform and applaud its presence. Im speaking out against the way they gather their data to determine what tools get developed first. As i said in my previous comment, i want paying customers to have a more front loaded say in what features they want/come for. Im not saying they need to abandon their business model, heck, lock advanced homebrew tools behind the master tier if thats what it takes. I just dont want their direction to be fuelled primarily by the casual players who dont pay a cent. Let the people who support the platform have a say in what comes first, thats all im asking for.
Let me rephrase: the casual players who don't pay a cent still generate income - by getting others to buy bundles and subscriptions so they can share their content. Having a large userbase is incredibly important for the revenue stream even if the larger part of those users never spend any money. Without that large userbase there's less interest for people to buy into the platform, because the main feature of DDB isn't any specific tool or functionality - it's that it's used by a lot of players. I get your argument, I just don't think it holds up to the business realities DDB is looking at.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I have spent just as much as you on this service, but what I want and what I am looking for is different than what you want.
If you run a business and have 10 people who have each spent $500 on a product vs 1000 people who have each spent $5 on a product, you're going to focus your attention on the people who have spent less but driven more traffic to your product.
It's like in MMOs when the hardcore, play 8 hours a day every day player complains about how the "devs should listen to them" and not the group of 5 casual players who play 8 hours a week. Those 5 are making the company a lot more money.
Or, buying one of those massive 1500 piece Lego sets. Buying one does not let you dictate which set they're releasing next.
Regardless, unless you're a shareholder in the company, you don't get to make financial decisions and drive the direction. You're a consumer who has simply purchased and uses a product from that company.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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EDIT: Aight, since everyone has decided to take my post as an excuse to go out and bat for a community serving corporation, let me approach my point from a different angle.
The DDB dev team uses graph data to track the most popular features of their website by all users, and then based on this data makes decisions about where to put development resources. This has resulted in the neglect of features that drew in original paying supporters for their site in the first place. Most of the "users" that DDB bases their data off are players leeching off of their DMs legendary bundle and master sub.
Myself, and all other DMs i have regular contact with, am unhappy about this, as we opened our wallets for DDB (despite owning most of the books physically between us already) with the intention of investing in its future and seeing more of what drew us in originally. The homebrewing tools that were a big appeal of the site for us, have received little to no attention over the years, with numerous known and reported problems (even ones that could be fixed in minutes like the inability to create homebrew ammunition) going unaddressed, and existing tools that don't even need to be developed further simply not being able to be used in certain places.
The point of my post was to request that paying customers be given a vote, upon purchase, of what direction would best benefit them for the website to be taken in. Record the amount they paid, and note what they want more of for the site. Thats all. Not a demand on what the corporation should spend all their money on with no regard for a functional business model (as many seem to have assumed i was dumb enough to suggest). DDB would not be what it is today without its early adopters, who likely came in support of a platform that could seamlessly allow their players to plug and play with their homebrew, as I and my cohort of DMs did.
And for the record, DDB is not operated by a faceless organisation. It is run by Fandom, a company that lives and dies on community interaction. So forgive me if i, a paying customer (upwards of $500AUD spent) who has sat patiently and asked nicely for years, have had enough of my interests being ignored.
Once you've decide to give someone your money for a product or service that you deem valuable enough to warrant the giving of your money, it's none of your business what they do with it.
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
We have no understanding of the inner workings of the business, their true overheads. Full costings of staff, how much is their electric bills? Rent or mortgages? What’s the true incomes? We can’t tell them where to send our money when we have no idea what faction or their company needs the investment or the bills paid.
That's generally not how businesses work. You pay for a product or service. They answer to a variety of regulatory bodies. If they decide to disclose anything to anyone beyond that, they're doing more than what's required of them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The "service i paid for" was not and is not the digital books. I owned all of them physically prior to DDB, even had bought duplicates of the core 3 books over the years, and thus had no need for the discount content. The "service" i came for and gave them money on the pretence of was the digital character sheet and seamless homebrew integration. At the time, these were the only things they had on offer, and thus the only proof of concept that could be used to judge their "service" at the time. But instead of improving and expanding on what they already had, they have assembled a hodge podge of other tools, one of which they have monetized (digital dice) and the other of which doesnt even display PC information in real time (encounter builder). So forgive me if im upset about the investment i made into an up and coming website not yielding results.
In my ohh so humble opinion, the only people they should be answering to are the ones funnelling money into their website. The point of my post was to make my voice heard, and potentially have a say in the direction the site moves in the future. Not to get flamed cause people assumed i don't understand how "profit" works, and as someone who runs a small business, "profit" works by keeping your highest paying customers happy.
What happens when someone else who has spent upwards of $500USD doesn't like your idea? (And I, who has bought every "book" DNDB has put out, don't because I believe that way leads to madness, chaos and loss of corporate direction and vision.)
And what about those who spend large sums but don't hang out on the forums (me) because they don't want to hear all the gruff and blunder? Or those who spend the money but aren't knowledgeable enough to realize the amount of expertise, etc. to implement their chosen feature? And what about...
And that's the problem. You'd have to show more concrete evidence beyond the anecdotal to steer just about any corporation in any direction. From my (admittedly limited) time here, I've noticed that it's mostly the same small set of individuals who typically post in the forums. Even the larger 20+ page threads tend to only have around 65k views. Are those unique views by unique visitors or just views? Even if they are unique views, 65k is a small subset of DNDB users (if I remember my numbers correctly. Which I probably don't).
Heck, the roadmap thread only has 45K views.
And we don't know what kind of input they're getting from other directions (emails, etc.) or the demands/limitations/stipulations of WotC.
My point being (which is coming across much harsher than I intended even though I'm trying not to. My tone is conversational, NOT confrontational) is that there wouldn't be enough meaningful input by the userbase. Even the high spending user base. I'd rather that those who know the resources available, how they are distributed/assigned, what is needed in one area to build on another area, etc., etc. make those decisions.
--Everything I do is a work of Art.
Art the Rat Bastard DM
People "leeching off" legendary bundles and master tier subscriptions still drive traffic and are part of the reason those sales are made. Content sharing is not a whimsical decision from DDB, it's a business decision based on what's best for their bottom line. Allocating resources to popular features is meant to generate maximum interest from players in general, because that's financially the most sound metric. Now, you say that you don't demand they toss out their business plan with your suggestion but the simple fact is that in part it does just that.
I have no problems with your desire for the homebrew tools getting a bit more love. On the contrary, I wholeheartedly support it. But putting resource allocation to a popular vote among users, rather than letting the company's best interests drive that decision, is not the way.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
If the current direction of the platform had been dictated solely by people who had outspent me on it, i would of course still be upset, but i wouldnt be up in arms all through the forums over it, because at least then i could understand that democracy has done its job. At present, they have (as they have confirmed in their development updates, which i watch religiously for the day they finally mention that fabled homebrew overhaul they have stopped talking about) made all their development decisions based on data graphs from user interaction, and probably profit as well (likely the source of digital dice, for example).
As to people not knowing whats best for the site as a whole, thats besides the point for me, and if done in the right way, wouldnt be a problem. If the devs provided a multiple choice poll after every purchase, with options consisted solely from existing and planned features, then the idea of people not being "knowledgeable enough to realize the amount of expertise, etc. to implement their chosen feature" is of little concern because the only options they can choose from are planned and existing features.
And you are right about vocal community vs the community as a whole, but again i feel that may be besides the point as said vocal community are usually the most pationate fans, with the most interest and investment in the service. If someone doesnt care enough to come to the forums to voice their opinion, then their opinion goes unheard.
WotC probably just take a large portion of their profits and care little about anything else, besides not offending snowflakes, im sure they right 3 paragraph essays into every partner contract about that. So i see little chance that WotC have any significant say in development of tools for the platform.
In my opinion, which all of this is in case i havent stated it, the most meaningful direction the platform could go in is the one where the paying customers get what they come for. I understand there is a profit and loss to be considered in all decsions, and with its current model, the homebrew tools aren't a source of income for DDB. But we have subscription tiers. I wouldnt complain if advanced homebrew tools got locked behind the master tier, if anything id welcome it if it meant they would develop said advanced homebrew tools. Im not blind to the business side of this model, im saying DDB seem to be blind to the community driven aspects of their platform.
Im not speaking out against content sharing, i think its an important part of the platform and applaud its presence. Im speaking out against the way they gather their data to determine what tools get developed first. As i said in my previous comment, i want paying customers to have a more front loaded say in what features they want/come for. Im not saying they need to abandon their business model, heck, lock advanced homebrew tools behind the master tier if thats what it takes. I just dont want their direction to be fuelled primarily by the casual players who dont pay a cent. Let the people who support the platform have a say in what comes first, thats all im asking for.
How do you differentiate a customer that buys a single feature in a single book of the Marketplace because they wanted to play that One Grung versus the player that pays a monthly fee so they can have more character slots versus the player that has the legendary bundle and uses content sharing in multiple campaigns?
Or are you talking a single vote per purchase and then what would be important enough to vote on?
I think it would take a full time job to even do the analytics on who they should listen to if they have to weight everything against how much value each of the customers have provided because of how much they spent. And it's pretty pointless on the bottom line anyway.
This is a publicly traded company. If you want to make your voice heard and your decisions count, you'll need to be a Stockholder. Once a company is publicly traded, nothing else matters more than the bottom line and the profit margin. I guess in a sense, every time you buy something you vote on the bottom line... so... there is that. But for the company to keep doing well and keep putting out more features, people have to make purchases every month. Legendary bundles do not do DNDBeyond any good the month after you buy them, only the one where you do. As such, expecting a company to spend a lot of development dollars on a system where they can never make a dime from it is wishful thinking at best. Be glad we have what we have. Every now and then we might get some more support on that, but make sure your expectations are in line with the reality of what kind of company this is.
Let me rephrase: the casual players who don't pay a cent still generate income - by getting others to buy bundles and subscriptions so they can share their content. Having a large userbase is incredibly important for the revenue stream even if the larger part of those users never spend any money. Without that large userbase there's less interest for people to buy into the platform, because the main feature of DDB isn't any specific tool or functionality - it's that it's used by a lot of players. I get your argument, I just don't think it holds up to the business realities DDB is looking at.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I have spent just as much as you on this service, but what I want and what I am looking for is different than what you want.
If you run a business and have 10 people who have each spent $500 on a product vs 1000 people who have each spent $5 on a product, you're going to focus your attention on the people who have spent less but driven more traffic to your product.
It's like in MMOs when the hardcore, play 8 hours a day every day player complains about how the "devs should listen to them" and not the group of 5 casual players who play 8 hours a week. Those 5 are making the company a lot more money.
Or, buying one of those massive 1500 piece Lego sets. Buying one does not let you dictate which set they're releasing next.
Regardless, unless you're a shareholder in the company, you don't get to make financial decisions and drive the direction. You're a consumer who has simply purchased and uses a product from that company.