I am looking for a statblock for Warforged. Are they technically a "living construct" in 5e?
No, warforged are not living constructs in 5e. They’re humanoids. “Living construct” is not a creature type anymore (which is something I find a bit disappointing, though I understand the reasoning).
souls, imo, are a product of religion. since gods definitely exist in D&D i'd say yes, all sentient creatures, whether made of carbon/hydrogen/oxygen or pure iron, have souls.
Gods probably don’t exist in Eberron, so this line of thinking is fallacious.
Gods probably don’t exist in Eberron, so this line of thinking is fallacious.
well i just hate being fallacious...how about '...since whatever power that clerics, druids, and paladins draw from definitely exist in Eberron...' ...or just change 'gods' with 'faith'
Warforged have souls, just like humans have souls. We don't have a way to prove it, but we just decided that we have souls, so for all purposes of talking about whether other things have souls, they do. If they can decide that they have souls, they have souls.
A brain kept alive in a jar would be capable of thought, it might even have consciousness and be aware of its surroundings, if the jar in which it was kept was sufficiently designed.
What about a homunculus? It can move, it can think, it can perceive and react to its surroundings?
By Descartian logic, the brain in the jar and the Homunculus would both have souls, despite thought being nothing but a chemical process, and the Homunculus being nothing more than a magically generated puppet, who only possesses the illusion of life.
The human body is also nothing but "a chemical process".
What about beasts and creatures that are incapable of intelligent though, do they not have souls, because they can’t choose to have one?
If the qualifier for having is a soul is that the being can choose to have a soul then according to the same logic a creature that can't choose to have a soul, can't have asoul. Goes without saying, doesn't it?
Also, warforged are created by mortals via an artificial practice. So, in creating living beings, who are not just alive, but also poses a soul, have mortals become gods?
No. Because you don't have to be a god to create life. Most adult human beings are able to create life together with another human being. Doesn't makes us god.
Do gods even exist, or are will all nothing more than dust upon the wind, that through a series of accidents has clumped together to form a being, that for a moment, believes itself to be alive?
In the real world? No. In most D&D settings? Yes.
In short, if warforged can have souls, what does that say all the other biological races? What does that say about us?
One philosophical test for consciousness is the ability to feel pain. An animal can feel pain. A computer program cannot.
Plenty of machines have self-diagnostic tools. The output of such tools could be defined as pain or contentment, if the programmer so desires. Physical pain is nothing more than the interpretation of a stimulus. Congenital insensitivity to pain, while extremely rare, exists among humans - and I wouldn't suggest these people have no soul.
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One philosophical test for consciousness is the ability to feel pain. An animal can feel pain. A computer program cannot.
Plenty of machines have self-diagnostic tools. The output of such tools could be defined as pain or contentment, if the programmer so desires. Physical pain is nothing more than the interpretation of a stimulus. Congenital insensitivity to pain, while extremely rare, exists among humans - and I wouldn't suggest these people have no soul.
Pain is pain, it is an existentialist experience.
If someone believes that computers or stones or tornadoes can actually feel pain, then one is an animist, religiously speaking.
Sure there are people whose sensory perception of pain is impaired. These people still experience the other senses. The philosophical test gets used because it is simple, vivid, and effective.
One philosophical test for consciousness is the ability to feel pain. An animal can feel pain. A computer program cannot.
Plenty of machines have self-diagnostic tools. The output of such tools could be defined as pain or contentment, if the programmer so desires. Physical pain is nothing more than the interpretation of a stimulus. Congenital insensitivity to pain, while extremely rare, exists among humans - and I wouldn't suggest these people have no soul.
Pain is pain, it is an existentialist experience.
If someone believes that computers or stones or tornadoes can actually feel pain, then one is an animist, religiously speaking.
Sure there are people whose sensory perception of pain is impaired. These people still experience the other senses. The philosophical test gets used because it is simple, vivid, and effective.
Alarm systems can see, hear and/or have a sense of smell. Something as simple as a record player interprets touch-based input. Sensory experience isn’t much of an indicator when it comes to determining whether something has a soul. It’s literally nothing more than signal capturing.
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I think their souls (yes they have them) come from the soul bank.
You know, the place where all other souls come from. There is no difference between a Human soul, Elf soul, Warforged soul...
In a lot of worlds there is a difference. In the Forgotten Realms, Dwarven souls are forged by Moradin, while Elven souls are recycled by Corellon, and Human souls just go to the afterlife.
However, in Eberron, there's not really a distinction, as far as we are aware.
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So, you are saying that those people who can't feel pain are either not human or don't have a soul. This also would suggest that you think that people who are drugged up all the time so they can't feel pain (such as people with extreme chronic pain disorders) don't have souls/aren't human/don't exist.
I have a feeling that you're not going to like the horse you're backing in the long run.
If someone believes that computers or stones or tornadoes can actually feel pain, then one is an animist, religiously speaking.
An AI can feel pain if it's coded that way. It's literally no different from how our body is wired to feel pain. If one is an animist to say that AI can feel pain, then it is also animist to say that humans can feel pain. There is a major difference between a rock and a sentient creature. Rocks are inanimate. Sentient creatures are "living" (in the loosest definition of the word).
Also, this statement seems a bit like an ad hominem. If you did not intend it that way, I suggest you are more careful in your words later on.
Sure there are people whose sensory perception of pain is impaired. These people still experience the other senses. The philosophical test gets used because it is simple, vivid, and effective.
. . . But the other senses aren't pain. You said that pain was "an existentialist experience" and then made a completely unconnected statement about them having other senses. You claimed pain is necessary to have a soul, and so stating the obvious about them having other senses doesn't support your argument at all.
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I am looking for a statblock for Warforged. Are they technically a "living construct" in 5e?
In any case, the Warforged that is a player character is by definition a "humanoid", a being with free will. This is probably the best definition of a "soul".
Probably every "living creature" is a soul, and certain sapient undead like vampire and lich are too.
But for sure, every "humanoid" is a soul.
Also, a soul isnt something one "has". A soul is something one is, a conscious being.
Warforged are living constructs in 5e. While not explicitly said, they are affected by healing magic, resting and medicine checks, which if they were not living constructs that would not be the case.
This is the aspect of Warforged that has never made sense to me. If they are made of metal, wouldn't Mending be a more appropriate spell for healing a Warforged? The idea that all healing magic works the same way for what is effectively a thinking, feeling robot the same way it would with a creature with a skeleton, bones, blood, and neurons has always been a convenience that I accept as a game balance mechanic decision, but not as a something that ever had any logical backing to it.
Warforged have souls, just like humans have souls. We don't have a way to prove it, but we just decided that we have souls, so for all purposes of talking about whether other things have souls, they do. If they can decide that they have souls, they have souls.
Or is it "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am?" Perhaps it is hubris for human beings to think that their minds are so extraordinary in the first place. There is no reason why every creature could not have a soul. It would be inconvenient, yes, to think of a pig or a green slime or a shambling mound as all having souls, but there is no reason to categorically rule out the possibility from a lore perspective.
I am looking for a statblock for Warforged. Are they technically a "living construct" in 5e?
In any case, the Warforged that is a player character is by definition a "humanoid", a being with free will. This is probably the best definition of a "soul".
Probably every "living creature" is a soul, and certain sapient undead like vampire and lich are too.
But for sure, every "humanoid" is a soul.
Also, a soul isnt something one "has". A soul is something one is, a conscious being.
Warforged are living constructs in 5e. While not explicitly said, they are affected by healing magic, resting and medicine checks, which if they were not living constructs that would not be the case.
This is the aspect of Warforged that has never made sense to me. If they are made of metal, wouldn't Mending be a more appropriate spell for healing a Warforged? The idea that all healing magic works the same way for what is effectively a thinking, feeling robot the same way it would with a creature with a skeleton, bones, blood, and neurons has always been a convenience that I accept as a game balance mechanic decision, but not as a something that ever had any logical backing to it.
Just because something is made of metal does not mean it is not biological in nature. Most people do not think of calcium as a metal, but it is a metal. Pure calcium looks like any other typical metal that we think of as metal with a gray/silvery shine.
I think most warforged crossed the line from being a construct to a biological being. Warforged might not be your typical carbon based life form, but Wizards and the D&D universe considers them to be just as alive as humans and elves.
Warforged are effectively playable golems. Turning them into biological beings kind of undermines that theme a bit, imho.
I think the main reason the warforged are no longer living constructs is because it adds unnecessary complications to the game. Mending and similar spells were used back in 3e, but it effectively doubled the number of spells a healer needed to prep if a warforged joined the group. Having cure wounds work on golems eliminates that extra step.
This is the aspect of Warforged that has never made sense to me. If they are made of metal, wouldn't Mending be a more appropriate spell for healing a Warforged? The idea that all healing magic works the same way for what is effectively a thinking, feeling robot the same way it would with a creature with a skeleton, bones, blood, and neurons has always been a convenience that I accept as a game balance mechanic decision, but not as a something that ever had any logical backing to it.
Except that warforged aren't just made of metal, though. They are made out of a blend of organic and non-organic material (just like humans). Usually metal but stone or hardwood is also mentioned. The "logic" (if that is something that ever should be applied to a fantasy game ;) ) is that warforged are living beings, therefor they are affected by magic just like any other human being. Think of it the other way around, if a human loses their arm and gets a non-organic replacement, are they less human?
Warforged are effectively playable golems. Turning them into biological beings kind of undermines that theme a bit, imho.
I think the main reason the warforged are no longer living constructs is because it adds unnecessary complications to the game. Mending and similar spells were used back in 3e, but it effectively doubled the number of spells a healer needed to prep if a warforged joined the group. Having cure wounds work on golems eliminates that extra step.
I wouldn't say it undermines them in any way. They still aren't biological beings in the sense that they can reproduce by themselves, die of old age (like most biological things do) and so on. But I guess it depends on what you want to WF to be. Then again, you can always change that in your own setting. :)
Regarding pain, the point is there is a difference between a system that is processing information, and there being a consciousness present to experience that system.
These are two completely different things.
You can have a dragonfly that is presumably conscious but with less data to be conscious of, versus a supercomputer that processes much data but without any consciousness to experience that data.
Consider a row of dominoes, one falling to knock over the next domino to fall. You can create elaborate patterns of dominoes, even to track information interactively. But at what point would consciousness enter the dominoes to experience these complex patterns?
The seat of consciousness must be something that is holistic and simultaneous.
The computer is just stones, silicon and copper. If one bit causes an other bit to electrify, and that bit causes other bits to turn off and on, at what point does consciousness enter to experience these cascading patterns?
Most likely, the brain is operating in a way that is holistic and simultaneous. Perhaps the electromagnetic fields are where consciousness is happening? If so, the seat of consciousness is literally an aura of light wrapping around each brain. Perhaps the quantum entanglements of quarks spin are where consciousness is happening? If so, the seat of consciousness is the universe itself and the brain is a kind atman entangling the consciousness of the brahman. Perhaps several physics of consciousness are happening, forming layers of consciousness. Maybe at the bottom is the consciousness of the body, and at the top is no-self of the entire universe as a conscious being. Perhaps consciousness is a physics of the fabric of space-time that scientists have yet to discover. Perhaps, ultimately, what is conscious is from beyond the fabric of space-time?
If someone believes that a computers chips can inherently experience their own processes of data, then that is animism. So that the seat of consciousness is the universe itself, and that the universe experiences sensations wherever systemic patterns happen. Animism is a prehistoric religion. If animism is correct, perhaps humans instinctively got this right?
The point of pain is, it is a vivid test. Pain isnt behavior. Pain isnt the behavior reacting to data. Pain isnt the data. It is an experience of the data. It requires a holistic presence that is able to experience the atomistic data. Pleasure like pain is experience. The test of pain and the test of pleasure are the same test, the test of consciousness being present to experience an information system. But the philosophies of AI focus on pain as the test because it is so clear and perhaps encourages empathy.
There's a really simple way to answer this question:
Are there any spells or items that care about souls? Why yes there are; raise dead (If the creature's soul is both willing and at liberty to rejoin the body, ...) resurrection (If its soul is free and willing,...), true resurrection, (If the creature's soul is free and willing....) soul cage (This spell snatches the soul of a humanoid as it dies...), magic jar (Your body falls into a catatonic state as your soul leaves it and enters the container...), and ring of mind shielding (If you die while wearing the ring, your soul enters it,...) to name a few.
Do any of these items specify the don't work on warforged directly or indirectly (say due to creature type)? Nope; only soul cage has any requisites (humanoid creatures) while the rest specify either a dead creature or make no specification other than being able to cast/attune.
Does warforged itself have any specification that prevents any of the above from working? Nope; warforged don't have any specific traits that directly or indirectly prevent any of the above from working.
Therefore we have at least five spells and one magic item that require a creature to have a soul to function, and work when used by/on a warforged. Therefore at least by RAW warforged have a soul or whatever passes for one within the various D&D settings.
One philosophical test for consciousness is the ability to feel pain. An animal can feel pain. A computer program cannot.
I would argue that pain is just a perception of physical stimulus, and our reactions to pain are just responses to those stimuli. Most of those are instinctive, and not much different to an ant following a pheromone trail, a single celled organism finding and consuming food, or even a line-following robot following a line. They are "hard-coded" responses developed over thousands of years which protect us from danger, and are not a huge amount different to responses in a computer program to "wrong" inputs.
One philosophical test for consciousness is the ability to feel pain. An animal can feel pain. A computer program cannot.
I would argue that pain is just a perception of physical stimulus, and our reactions to pain are just responses to those stimuli. Most of those are instinctive, and not much different to an ant following a pheromone trail, a single celled organism finding and consuming food, or even a line-following robot following a line. They are "hard-coded" responses developed over thousands of years which protect us from danger, and are not a huge amount different to responses in a computer program to "wrong" inputs.
I moreorless agree.
The point I am trying to make is:
There is a difference between writing a computer program that simulates information, and the computer being a consciousness that can experience this information.
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No, warforged are not living constructs in 5e. They’re humanoids. “Living construct” is not a creature type anymore (which is something I find a bit disappointing, though I understand the reasoning).
Gods probably don’t exist in Eberron, so this line of thinking is fallacious.
well i just hate being fallacious...how about '...since whatever power that clerics, druids, and paladins draw from definitely exist in Eberron...' ...or just change 'gods' with 'faith'
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I would say that it depends on how you define "Soul"
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The human body is also nothing but "a chemical process".
If the qualifier for having is a soul is that the being can choose to have a soul then according to the same logic a creature that can't choose to have a soul, can't have asoul. Goes without saying, doesn't it?
No. Because you don't have to be a god to create life. Most adult human beings are able to create life together with another human being. Doesn't makes us god.
In the real world? No. In most D&D settings? Yes.
Nothing. Not a single thing.
Regardless of what it is, or how it works, or where it comes from, consciousness is something that a physical brain can somehow entangle.
Animals too are souls, having consciousness.
One philosophical test for consciousness is the ability to feel pain. An animal can feel pain. A computer program cannot.
he / him
Plenty of machines have self-diagnostic tools. The output of such tools could be defined as pain or contentment, if the programmer so desires. Physical pain is nothing more than the interpretation of a stimulus. Congenital insensitivity to pain, while extremely rare, exists among humans - and I wouldn't suggest these people have no soul.
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Pain is pain, it is an existentialist experience.
If someone believes that computers or stones or tornadoes can actually feel pain, then one is an animist, religiously speaking.
Sure there are people whose sensory perception of pain is impaired. These people still experience the other senses. The philosophical test gets used because it is simple, vivid, and effective.
he / him
Alarm systems can see, hear and/or have a sense of smell. Something as simple as a record player interprets touch-based input. Sensory experience isn’t much of an indicator when it comes to determining whether something has a soul. It’s literally nothing more than signal capturing.
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I think their souls (yes they have them) come from the soul bank.
You know, the place where all other souls come from. There is no difference between a Human soul, Elf soul, Warforged soul...
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In a lot of worlds there is a difference. In the Forgotten Realms, Dwarven souls are forged by Moradin, while Elven souls are recycled by Corellon, and Human souls just go to the afterlife.
However, in Eberron, there's not really a distinction, as far as we are aware.
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So, you are saying that those people who can't feel pain are either not human or don't have a soul. This also would suggest that you think that people who are drugged up all the time so they can't feel pain (such as people with extreme chronic pain disorders) don't have souls/aren't human/don't exist.
I have a feeling that you're not going to like the horse you're backing in the long run.
An AI can feel pain if it's coded that way. It's literally no different from how our body is wired to feel pain. If one is an animist to say that AI can feel pain, then it is also animist to say that humans can feel pain. There is a major difference between a rock and a sentient creature. Rocks are inanimate. Sentient creatures are "living" (in the loosest definition of the word).
Also, this statement seems a bit like an ad hominem. If you did not intend it that way, I suggest you are more careful in your words later on.
. . . But the other senses aren't pain. You said that pain was "an existentialist experience" and then made a completely unconnected statement about them having other senses. You claimed pain is necessary to have a soul, and so stating the obvious about them having other senses doesn't support your argument at all.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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This is the aspect of Warforged that has never made sense to me. If they are made of metal, wouldn't Mending be a more appropriate spell for healing a Warforged? The idea that all healing magic works the same way for what is effectively a thinking, feeling robot the same way it would with a creature with a skeleton, bones, blood, and neurons has always been a convenience that I accept as a game balance mechanic decision, but not as a something that ever had any logical backing to it.
Or is it "I think that I think, therefore I think that I am?" Perhaps it is hubris for human beings to think that their minds are so extraordinary in the first place. There is no reason why every creature could not have a soul. It would be inconvenient, yes, to think of a pig or a green slime or a shambling mound as all having souls, but there is no reason to categorically rule out the possibility from a lore perspective.
Just because something is made of metal does not mean it is not biological in nature. Most people do not think of calcium as a metal, but it is a metal. Pure calcium looks like any other typical metal that we think of as metal with a gray/silvery shine.
I think most warforged crossed the line from being a construct to a biological being. Warforged might not be your typical carbon based life form, but Wizards and the D&D universe considers them to be just as alive as humans and elves.
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Warforged are effectively playable golems. Turning them into biological beings kind of undermines that theme a bit, imho.
I think the main reason the warforged are no longer living constructs is because it adds unnecessary complications to the game. Mending and similar spells were used back in 3e, but it effectively doubled the number of spells a healer needed to prep if a warforged joined the group. Having cure wounds work on golems eliminates that extra step.
Except that warforged aren't just made of metal, though. They are made out of a blend of organic and non-organic material (just like humans). Usually metal but stone or hardwood is also mentioned. The "logic" (if that is something that ever should be applied to a fantasy game ;) ) is that warforged are living beings, therefor they are affected by magic just like any other human being. Think of it the other way around, if a human loses their arm and gets a non-organic replacement, are they less human?
I wouldn't say it undermines them in any way. They still aren't biological beings in the sense that they can reproduce by themselves, die of old age (like most biological things do) and so on. But I guess it depends on what you want to WF to be. Then again, you can always change that in your own setting. :)
Regarding pain, the point is there is a difference between a system that is processing information, and there being a consciousness present to experience that system.
These are two completely different things.
You can have a dragonfly that is presumably conscious but with less data to be conscious of, versus a supercomputer that processes much data but without any consciousness to experience that data.
Consider a row of dominoes, one falling to knock over the next domino to fall. You can create elaborate patterns of dominoes, even to track information interactively. But at what point would consciousness enter the dominoes to experience these complex patterns?
The seat of consciousness must be something that is holistic and simultaneous.
The computer is just stones, silicon and copper. If one bit causes an other bit to electrify, and that bit causes other bits to turn off and on, at what point does consciousness enter to experience these cascading patterns?
Most likely, the brain is operating in a way that is holistic and simultaneous. Perhaps the electromagnetic fields are where consciousness is happening? If so, the seat of consciousness is literally an aura of light wrapping around each brain. Perhaps the quantum entanglements of quarks spin are where consciousness is happening? If so, the seat of consciousness is the universe itself and the brain is a kind atman entangling the consciousness of the brahman. Perhaps several physics of consciousness are happening, forming layers of consciousness. Maybe at the bottom is the consciousness of the body, and at the top is no-self of the entire universe as a conscious being. Perhaps consciousness is a physics of the fabric of space-time that scientists have yet to discover. Perhaps, ultimately, what is conscious is from beyond the fabric of space-time?
If someone believes that a computers chips can inherently experience their own processes of data, then that is animism. So that the seat of consciousness is the universe itself, and that the universe experiences sensations wherever systemic patterns happen. Animism is a prehistoric religion. If animism is correct, perhaps humans instinctively got this right?
The point of pain is, it is a vivid test. Pain isnt behavior. Pain isnt the behavior reacting to data. Pain isnt the data. It is an experience of the data. It requires a holistic presence that is able to experience the atomistic data. Pleasure like pain is experience. The test of pain and the test of pleasure are the same test, the test of consciousness being present to experience an information system. But the philosophies of AI focus on pain as the test because it is so clear and perhaps encourages empathy.
he / him
There's a really simple way to answer this question:
Therefore we have at least five spells and one magic item that require a creature to have a soul to function, and work when used by/on a warforged. Therefore at least by RAW warforged have a soul or whatever passes for one within the various D&D settings.
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I would argue that pain is just a perception of physical stimulus, and our reactions to pain are just responses to those stimuli. Most of those are instinctive, and not much different to an ant following a pheromone trail, a single celled organism finding and consuming food, or even a line-following robot following a line. They are "hard-coded" responses developed over thousands of years which protect us from danger, and are not a huge amount different to responses in a computer program to "wrong" inputs.
I moreorless agree.
The point I am trying to make is:
There is a difference between writing a computer program that simulates information, and the computer being a consciousness that can experience this information.
he / him