^ This is very close to my feelings on the matter as well.
At this point the campaign is done for you. You need to decide if this friendship is worth nurturing. If it isn't, move this fellow down to acquaintance and move on.
If the friendship is worth investing in then when you are ready, ready to deal with negative feedback, open the door for a conversation. I would begin it with "Hey, you left yourself logged into the discord server the other day when you came over. I logged out after I noticed you were playing that old "campaign" with "this person." I miss that game. It was fun. Do you want to talk about it?
This pretty much lays all the cards on the table for you. The only problem is that this puts the question to your DM without them having the same time to have the conversation when they are prepared. They would need to be prepared to receive negative feedback just as you. But since you have chosen the time to "kick open the door" they don't have the same luxury. So it would be fair to offer to let them defer the conversation a short time while they think about it, really think about it, before the words start happening. Once the words are out, you can never take them back. They can only be given back and forgotten by someone willing to forgive. So both of you need to be careful if you both want the thing between you over.
I appreciated reading Mezzurah's remarks. I think it is a fair point that they may have meant for you to see this but couldn't throw open the door for a conversation themselves. But it is also possible it was just a 'dick' think to do. I think clearing the air between the two of you is the healthy way forward.
In general I also want to express this opinion. A DMs campaign is the DMs campaign. The rest of the group can't impose on the DM to run their campaign for them. It is the other way around. The DM invites you in to participate in his campaign. This is because of the amount of extra work the DM has to put into the game to be a DM. Would you agree to DM a campaign because your friends told you to? Or would they have to ask you? Would you continue to DM even though you were no longer enjoying the sessions after the investment you were putting into it? It is true that you are all making contributions to the campaign, but I think the campaign belongs to the DM. I think when you see your DM struggling the group should find a backup DM and offer to suspend the campaign and start something else under the new DM.
For many folks, until you've sat in that seat, you just can't appreciate how it feels to have made the investment ahead of a session only to go into the session and have a (or some) players tell you how to rule on some detail. It is pretty outrageous. Even if the DM is factually wrong according to the printed rules, they still get to decide. But the players are free to ask, politely, what other rules the DM wishes to use in contradiction to the published rules.
This is a tough situation and I wish you the best in getting past it. Good luck.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I've been debating for a while whether to weigh in on this or not, and I think I finally have the words to say:
This is not a D&D issue; as you have said, the campaign is dead and gone, or at least your part in it is. Instead, this is an interpersonal issue, and as such it absolutely needs to be addressed. It will be painful. It might bring up some harsh truths. It might even harm your friendship with this person, maybe even end it, but from personal experience I can tell you right now, not talking about it willmake it worse.
To put things into perspective, and if I may take the liberty of inserting myself into this point of view: This person, my friend, "ends" the campaign I've enjoyed playing, and tells me in no uncertain terms that they aren't bringing it back; that sucks, but that's the way it is, and I do my best to move on. Then, in this age of Covid, this friend tells me they want to play games with me, and they come into my house to hang out where I let them us my laptop so we can game together. Then, this person, while on my laptop, in my house, in my presence, logs into Discord and starts playing this campaign that they they lied to my face about ending. They then not only don't bother to log out of Discord on my laptop after leaving my house, they don't even bother switching to a different server, and leave me to do that for them, after having played this campaign they lied to me about, during what was supposed to be our time to hang out and play together, in my house, on my laptop, in front of my face the entire time.
Maybe this is just the raging ***** in me coming out, but I would find this unacceptable. Either they were being petty and wanted me to find it, or they were being completely and inexcusably thoughtless; either way, they would have some serious explaining to do, and I would start seriously reevaluating my relationship with this person.
Sigh. I'm sorry OP, I let my emotions get in the way (which I really should not have done) so I can't say I'm being an objective actor here, but from where I'm standing, and still keeping myself in this point of view (which again, I probably shouldn't do), this has nothing to do with D&D and everything to do with the fact that my friend is lying to me and using my hospitality without any thought or regard to me.
I wrote my post, and afterward read yours, and marveled at how opposite the approaches were. I didnt think you were wrong. It is important to be honest with oneself about ones feelings. It is important to know what one wants − even when desires can be mutually exclusive and conflict with each other − it is still important to decide on what the desires are. When someone is wronged, the desire for justice is important.
But. When moving forward to make the world a better place − and make a particular situation a better situation − one often needs to remove oneself from the equation. One doesnt really disappear. It is more like, if there is a group of 9 people who you care about, you kinda add yourself and your own needs as a 10th person "out there" in that group, and resolve your own needs impartially in the same way and with the same effort that you are resolving the needs for the other nine.
I wrote my post, and afterward read yours, and marveled at how opposite the approaches were. I didnt think you were wrong. It is important to be honest with oneself about ones feelings. It is important to know what one wants − even when desires can be mutually exclusive and conflict with each other − it is still important to decide on what the desires are. When someone is wronged, the desire for justice is important.
But. When moving forward to make the world a better place − and make a particular situation a better situation − one often needs to remove oneself from the equation. One doesnt really disappear. It is more like, if there is a group of 9 people who you care about, you kinda add yourself and your own needs as a 10th person "out there" in that group, and resolve your own needs impartially in the same way and with the same effort that you are resolving the needs for the other nine.
It's a little funny, because I don't think you're wrong at all either. But, the thing I've learned the hard way is that if I try too hard to remove myself from the equation, it can (and usually does) end up backfiring spectacularly.
I had a really bad habit when I was younger of not taking care of my own considerations and trying to make sure that everyone else's emotional needs were taken care of before mine, and to do everything I could to not rock the boat, and it became such a problem I had to stop and de-program myself so that my relationships didn't turn toxic or worse, exploitative. There was one where I had a decent friendship with a person who I also had deep political differences with, and I thought I could push those differences off to the side but really I was just leaving them to fester and stew, and in the end it exploded and our friendship ended with the two of us screaming at each other. There was another time where I was in a romantic relationship that started off wonderfully, but my partner had issues he wasn't willing to talk about and he ended up pulling away, and that made me resentful but I tried to remove my feelings from the equation, and it ended up just festering again to the point where...it didn't explode, we did try to end things amicably, but by then those feelings I had had just built up to the point where whatever friendship we could have had wasn't salvageable, and I regret not speaking about them sooner. The last one I want to talk about, there was an individual I thought I had a very good friendship with, but in reality they were very selfish and demanding, and they were coming into my home and stealing from me when I wasn't looking, and they were spreading lies and talking shit about me behind my back (including telling people I was ******* my own sister), and when I found out I finally did what I should have done years before and not only burned that bridge, I torpedoed it and dropped dam busters on the ******* thing.
Now, is the OP's situation anything remotely like anything that I've went through? I certainly hope not; it was all a very long and difficult and painful process for me to go through. But, the thing I had to learn was that even in my best relationships I have to put myself first and foremost, because the unfortunate reality is that I can't count on other people doing it for me.
My brief thoughts perhaps in a less than organized order
Things I would like to know more about
1) The argument : what was it about? or if you dont want to answer that, was it about the game (rules, items, characters etc) or was it about off the table stuff? (politics, relationships, parenting etc). two very different things
2) Your dealings with the DM now : is it a reciprocal relationship? Do they come over to play video games with you? Or do they come over to use your laptop to play video games? also two very different things.
Things that Im pretty sure about
1) You and the DM seem to get along well enough, so its not like they can't stand you. There could be any number of things that might've caused the group to disolve that have little to do with you directly.
2) You werent "snooping" in the discord channel and also werent wrong. They left it plain as day on your laptop screen when they gave it back to you. Thats like your friend holding your wallet then giving it back to you empty, thats not snooping.
3) Im sorry to say whichever path you take you arent getting invited back to this campaign. Not confronting them isnt going to get you an invite back. Confronting them won't either. "Hey since you caught me I guess Ill let you play now". yeah...no.
4) The DM and the one they are still RPing with have a different level of relationship than they do with the rest of you. Romantic is the obvious first thought here, but could be something else. Maybe they shared or relate to some hardship together : military service, addiction, bankruptcy, medical condition to name a few. Who knows what exactly, but it isnt common to play 1 on 1 D&D. Some people do, but most dont.
Given the info included and not included in the above, things I might consider
1) Tell them you were interested in DMing, ask them if they want to play, furthermore tell them how much you liked their world and ask them if you can co-opt it. As a DM, sometimes you get burned out, sometimes it would be nice to play, sometimes you want to come back to DMing after playing for a while. "So your telling me there is a chance?" no not really but if I was this would be the best option.
2) Just tell them that you saw the discord and that you were really into the story and were sad it ended. You didn't know they continued the story. Let it be a face value declarative statement as much as possible. Dont accuse, dont demand, dont push, simply just state it and give them a forum. If they say "oh, yeah Ive been playing with them for a bit" and nothing more then pushing them for more is only going to sour things. They don't owe you an answer and may not want to tell you for any number of reasons (see hardships above). On the other hand it will tell you more about that "is the relationship reciprocal" question. You don't owe them friendship or energy either, based on their response you will have to decide what its worth to you. Either way you didn't burn a bridge and the ball is in your court.
Hello everyone. I have decided to give an update on this post. I appreciate each of you that offered me different things to consider and think about. It gave me the confidence to approach the situation differently, which helped me feel more comfortable by confronting the old DM (I have anxiety and felt more at ease with everyone's advice given). We had a talk last night. I started off by explaining how I ended up seeing the RP messages since she had left it open on my laptop. She wasn't upset at all about me seeing them. She told me that she wasn't trying to hide it from me, but didn't really broadcast it either. She didn't say, but I think she didn't want to try hurting feelings of not only myself, but the other members as well by having it continue. But now that it's out, she said she'd share stories with me about what's been going on since everyone's departure. I then asked about why was it only just them on a 1v1 session? She informed me that her and the other member had been doing this side story (same world) along side our campaign at the time. Then when the campaign came to a close, they kept that going since it was separate to begin with. Adding to that, the main reason for the campaign cancelation was she felt like no one cared about her story and people either canceled, were late, or had certain dislikes towards NPCs and were a bit obnoxious about it. I let her know that I did care about her campaign/story and if I ever gave off that vibe, I am truly sorry. She knew I did love the story and explained that I wasn't the problem, but she was tired of the others in the group. She also added on to her reasoning; since someone ought to know how her campaign story goes, so she is incorporating bits and pieces of that into their existing side story, including the other member's OC from the party. I didn't bother asking to join in, since 1.) If she really wanted me in, she would have. I think that part is very clear and 2.) I'm not gonna rain on the nice parade they have going on already. However, I'll be excited to hear about what adventures have been going on. I want to thank everyone again on more time for all the advice and even sharing how some of you had similar experiences. It felt nice to know that some of my hurt was okay to feel. I'm sorry to those who had similar experiences, confronted those individuals and didn't end up going as well as mine did. I know it's not a perfectly happy ending, but turned out better than I thought it may have gone. To everyone who encounters something like this in the future, I hope things go well for you and no bridges are burnt. Wishing all of you happy adventures at your tables. ♡
That's excellent news, glad it went so well and that nothing bad came out of it! Also kudos for giving us closure, so often these threads fade away without ever knowing what happened!
^ This is very close to my feelings on the matter as well.
At this point the campaign is done for you. You need to decide if this friendship is worth nurturing. If it isn't, move this fellow down to acquaintance and move on.
If the friendship is worth investing in then when you are ready, ready to deal with negative feedback, open the door for a conversation. I would begin it with "Hey, you left yourself logged into the discord server the other day when you came over. I logged out after I noticed you were playing that old "campaign" with "this person." I miss that game. It was fun. Do you want to talk about it?
This pretty much lays all the cards on the table for you. The only problem is that this puts the question to your DM without them having the same time to have the conversation when they are prepared. They would need to be prepared to receive negative feedback just as you. But since you have chosen the time to "kick open the door" they don't have the same luxury. So it would be fair to offer to let them defer the conversation a short time while they think about it, really think about it, before the words start happening. Once the words are out, you can never take them back. They can only be given back and forgotten by someone willing to forgive. So both of you need to be careful if you both want the thing between you over.
I appreciated reading Mezzurah's remarks. I think it is a fair point that they may have meant for you to see this but couldn't throw open the door for a conversation themselves. But it is also possible it was just a 'dick' think to do. I think clearing the air between the two of you is the healthy way forward.
In general I also want to express this opinion. A DMs campaign is the DMs campaign. The rest of the group can't impose on the DM to run their campaign for them. It is the other way around. The DM invites you in to participate in his campaign. This is because of the amount of extra work the DM has to put into the game to be a DM. Would you agree to DM a campaign because your friends told you to? Or would they have to ask you? Would you continue to DM even though you were no longer enjoying the sessions after the investment you were putting into it? It is true that you are all making contributions to the campaign, but I think the campaign belongs to the DM. I think when you see your DM struggling the group should find a backup DM and offer to suspend the campaign and start something else under the new DM.
For many folks, until you've sat in that seat, you just can't appreciate how it feels to have made the investment ahead of a session only to go into the session and have a (or some) players tell you how to rule on some detail. It is pretty outrageous. Even if the DM is factually wrong according to the printed rules, they still get to decide. But the players are free to ask, politely, what other rules the DM wishes to use in contradiction to the published rules.
This is a tough situation and I wish you the best in getting past it. Good luck.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I wrote my post, and afterward read yours, and marveled at how opposite the approaches were. I didnt think you were wrong. It is important to be honest with oneself about ones feelings. It is important to know what one wants − even when desires can be mutually exclusive and conflict with each other − it is still important to decide on what the desires are. When someone is wronged, the desire for justice is important.
But. When moving forward to make the world a better place − and make a particular situation a better situation − one often needs to remove oneself from the equation. One doesnt really disappear. It is more like, if there is a group of 9 people who you care about, you kinda add yourself and your own needs as a 10th person "out there" in that group, and resolve your own needs impartially in the same way and with the same effort that you are resolving the needs for the other nine.
he / him
It's a little funny, because I don't think you're wrong at all either. But, the thing I've learned the hard way is that if I try too hard to remove myself from the equation, it can (and usually does) end up backfiring spectacularly.
I had a really bad habit when I was younger of not taking care of my own considerations and trying to make sure that everyone else's emotional needs were taken care of before mine, and to do everything I could to not rock the boat, and it became such a problem I had to stop and de-program myself so that my relationships didn't turn toxic or worse, exploitative. There was one where I had a decent friendship with a person who I also had deep political differences with, and I thought I could push those differences off to the side but really I was just leaving them to fester and stew, and in the end it exploded and our friendship ended with the two of us screaming at each other. There was another time where I was in a romantic relationship that started off wonderfully, but my partner had issues he wasn't willing to talk about and he ended up pulling away, and that made me resentful but I tried to remove my feelings from the equation, and it ended up just festering again to the point where...it didn't explode, we did try to end things amicably, but by then those feelings I had had just built up to the point where whatever friendship we could have had wasn't salvageable, and I regret not speaking about them sooner. The last one I want to talk about, there was an individual I thought I had a very good friendship with, but in reality they were very selfish and demanding, and they were coming into my home and stealing from me when I wasn't looking, and they were spreading lies and talking shit about me behind my back (including telling people I was ******* my own sister), and when I found out I finally did what I should have done years before and not only burned that bridge, I torpedoed it and dropped dam busters on the ******* thing.
Now, is the OP's situation anything remotely like anything that I've went through? I certainly hope not; it was all a very long and difficult and painful process for me to go through. But, the thing I had to learn was that even in my best relationships I have to put myself first and foremost, because the unfortunate reality is that I can't count on other people doing it for me.
My brief thoughts perhaps in a less than organized order
Things I would like to know more about
1) The argument : what was it about? or if you dont want to answer that, was it about the game (rules, items, characters etc) or was it about off the table stuff? (politics, relationships, parenting etc). two very different things
2) Your dealings with the DM now : is it a reciprocal relationship? Do they come over to play video games with you? Or do they come over to use your laptop to play video games? also two very different things.
Things that Im pretty sure about
1) You and the DM seem to get along well enough, so its not like they can't stand you. There could be any number of things that might've caused the group to disolve that have little to do with you directly.
2) You werent "snooping" in the discord channel and also werent wrong. They left it plain as day on your laptop screen when they gave it back to you. Thats like your friend holding your wallet then giving it back to you empty, thats not snooping.
3) Im sorry to say whichever path you take you arent getting invited back to this campaign. Not confronting them isnt going to get you an invite back. Confronting them won't either. "Hey since you caught me I guess Ill let you play now". yeah...no.
4) The DM and the one they are still RPing with have a different level of relationship than they do with the rest of you. Romantic is the obvious first thought here, but could be something else. Maybe they shared or relate to some hardship together : military service, addiction, bankruptcy, medical condition to name a few. Who knows what exactly, but it isnt common to play 1 on 1 D&D. Some people do, but most dont.
Given the info included and not included in the above, things I might consider
1) Tell them you were interested in DMing, ask them if they want to play, furthermore tell them how much you liked their world and ask them if you can co-opt it. As a DM, sometimes you get burned out, sometimes it would be nice to play, sometimes you want to come back to DMing after playing for a while. "So your telling me there is a chance?" no not really but if I was this would be the best option.
2) Just tell them that you saw the discord and that you were really into the story and were sad it ended. You didn't know they continued the story. Let it be a face value declarative statement as much as possible. Dont accuse, dont demand, dont push, simply just state it and give them a forum. If they say "oh, yeah Ive been playing with them for a bit" and nothing more then pushing them for more is only going to sour things. They don't owe you an answer and may not want to tell you for any number of reasons (see hardships above). On the other hand it will tell you more about that "is the relationship reciprocal" question. You don't owe them friendship or energy either, based on their response you will have to decide what its worth to you. Either way you didn't burn a bridge and the ball is in your court.
Hello everyone. I have decided to give an update on this post. I appreciate each of you that offered me different things to consider and think about. It gave me the confidence to approach the situation differently, which helped me feel more comfortable by confronting the old DM (I have anxiety and felt more at ease with everyone's advice given). We had a talk last night. I started off by explaining how I ended up seeing the RP messages since she had left it open on my laptop. She wasn't upset at all about me seeing them. She told me that she wasn't trying to hide it from me, but didn't really broadcast it either. She didn't say, but I think she didn't want to try hurting feelings of not only myself, but the other members as well by having it continue. But now that it's out, she said she'd share stories with me about what's been going on since everyone's departure. I then asked about why was it only just them on a 1v1 session? She informed me that her and the other member had been doing this side story (same world) along side our campaign at the time. Then when the campaign came to a close, they kept that going since it was separate to begin with. Adding to that, the main reason for the campaign cancelation was she felt like no one cared about her story and people either canceled, were late, or had certain dislikes towards NPCs and were a bit obnoxious about it. I let her know that I did care about her campaign/story and if I ever gave off that vibe, I am truly sorry. She knew I did love the story and explained that I wasn't the problem, but she was tired of the others in the group. She also added on to her reasoning; since someone ought to know how her campaign story goes, so she is incorporating bits and pieces of that into their existing side story, including the other member's OC from the party. I didn't bother asking to join in, since 1.) If she really wanted me in, she would have. I think that part is very clear and 2.) I'm not gonna rain on the nice parade they have going on already. However, I'll be excited to hear about what adventures have been going on. I want to thank everyone again on more time for all the advice and even sharing how some of you had similar experiences. It felt nice to know that some of my hurt was okay to feel. I'm sorry to those who had similar experiences, confronted those individuals and didn't end up going as well as mine did. I know it's not a perfectly happy ending, but turned out better than I thought it may have gone. To everyone who encounters something like this in the future, I hope things go well for you and no bridges are burnt. Wishing all of you happy adventures at your tables. ♡
That's excellent news, glad it went so well and that nothing bad came out of it! Also kudos for giving us closure, so often these threads fade away without ever knowing what happened!
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