Yeah, it is a very controversial topic to be sure. I know a lot of people are hung up on it, but honestly I think their energy would be better spent looking at what future possibilities there may be than fighting against the flow. I do get it though. Humans really don't like change.
I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Of course, people are not going to read back to see that I’ve already addressed this. I anticipate that I’m going to have to keep repeating myself on this point ad nauseum.
First off, the claim that it is a fantasy world and that makes anything permissible is obviously flawed. I need not say anything more.
It is a shared world. Could you make wagons fly? Sure. Could you make all wagons soft, spongey, the size of your fist, and taste good? It is a fantasy world, so okay. Could you keep making these kinds of changes? Maybe rocks have PTSD and taste like harp music? Maybe harp music has wheels and carries elephants down lemon sounding butterscotch?
Clearly, just because it is fantasy doesn’t mean everything is possible.
People come to the game expecting things to work according to science. When those things don’t, then they need to be explained. An explanation can be as simple as “it’s magic.” Why can dragons fly? “It’s magic.” That’s okay. But, that might require other explanations. “Why are dragons so magical?” Well, in DND, there’s a huge body of lore explaining why dragons are so magical.
So, the question comes up with your proposal, “why are all these lightweight, tiny-muscled 1/2ling PC fighters able to bend the same iron bars as the average 1/2 Orc PC fighters two times taller, 8 times more massive, whose biceps are bigger than the 1/2 king’s heads?” You can say it is magic, but then you have to explain why the 1/2lings have this magic.
”Because a bunch of woke kids thought it was discriminatory not to” breaks the suspension of disbelief.
First off, the claim that it is a fantasy world and that makes anything permissible is obviously flawed. I need not say anything more.
Given the responses, you clearly need to say more. I don't see the obvious flaw, or any flaw for that matter.
In my world, Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes were created by the Earth Mothers out of clay, rock, and gems respectively. They don't have DNA. They don't have blood types. They're not just different sized real-world humans, they are creatures created by the gods. Just like all the other life on my world.
There, done. Argue all the real world science you want, but I get to decide how things work on my world. That's the joy of magic. You can have boats that defy gravity, sprawling cities under the ocean, islands floating on lava, talking sharks, and huts that are bigger on the inside than the outside. And you don't have to explain it with science. It's magic.
You can have all the science you want in your world, but don't try to dictate to me how my world must work.
”Because a bunch of woke kids thought it was discriminatory not to” breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Ah. I missed what your real problem was. I'm an old man and I think your real argument is sad and depressing.
In my world, Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes were created by the Earth Mothers out of clay, rock, and gems respectively. They don't have DNA. They don't have blood types. They're not just different sized real-world humans, they are creatures created by the gods. Just like all the other life on my world.
But does clay on your world work pretty much the way clay does on ours? That is to say, is it the smallest grain size of the 3 primary grain sizes of soil (clay smallest, silt medium, sand largest)? Can it be used to make pottery, and does the pottery (generally) match the consistency of clay-made pottery in the real world? Or does your clay look like those styrofoam packing peanuts and have the same basic consistency?
Do rocks look and weigh pretty much the way they do here? Do you have forms of it like granite, marble, volcanic glass, and so forth? Do these rocks have the same basic type of substance and form we have in our world? Or are your "rocks" the consistency of wool, soft and warm and snuggly to cover yourself with on a cold night?
Are your gems hunks of mineral crystals, like we find in the real world, formed into things like ruby and diamond and emerald? Or are your gems squishy with the consistency of squid or octopus bodies, and stinking of fish brine?
Although I don't want to put words in your mouth (or in your forum posts), I strongly suspect, because you used the words "clay," and "rock," and "gems" in your post, that you meant us to take these words to mean the same thing as they mean in the real world -- that if, instead, you had meant to say that halflings were made out of packing peanuts, you'd have said that.
But Wren's point is, if you just say 'It's a magic world so none of the physical or biological laws as we know of apply to it,' then there is no common language we can use to understand each other. If we start to establish that nothing in the D&D world works anything like in the real world -- rather than what has always been assumed, which is that it works almost entirely like our world except where magic "edits" things a little bit -- then you have to define every term. You're going to have to tell me what the word "sword" means because I can't assume it is a long flat blade made of metal. And we're going to need to talk about what "metal" is in your world. Is there any? Or are swords made out of lollipops? Do people mine gold from the mountains, or do they mine water from it? Do they pay each other in "gold pieces" that are actually slabs of ice? Again all these things are possible, but even here -- if the physical laws don't work, then do you even have ice? Why or why not?
The human brain can only hold so many variables in it, and so what all RPGs have done since the beginning is to present us with rules for having a world that closely mimics in its basic functions (the basic physics, biology, and chemistry) the real world, so that we all understand what clay is, what rocks are, and what gems are, and then goes a step beyond it into the realm of the magical.
But even the magic functions in a way that is inspired by, and mostly follows, the rules of physics. For example, fireballs may appear in a way that is fantastical, but, having appeared, they act exactly the way a real-world fireball would act: they are hot; they burn things; they singe clothing; etc. Of course you're free to do whatever you want in your world but I'm fairly sure most of the time, when fireball is cast for the fist time, players aren't wondering what sort of an effect it will have... and DMs aren't saying things like, "In my world, fire is chocolate so you just blasted the enemy with a chocolate ball". And in most worlds I would think people aren't sitting around camp-chocolate holding out buzz-saws to to make "smores" out of saws and fishing line.
This is true for most spells... Water breathing assumes normal, biological, lungs-and-oxygen based breathing. Darkness acts like real-world darkness. Lightning Bolt acts like an actual bolt of lightning, give or take. You don't cast Water Breathing and now your character is able to breathe wood... Darkness and the room fills with buzzards... Lightning Bolt and a fountain of ice cream sprays the target. Water still means H2O... breathing still means inhaling oxygen... darkness still means the absence of light.... and lighting bolt still means a zap of electricity. At least RAW. You'd be talking about a major amount of home-brew to make it different.
The game is designed around the idea that the game world works mostly the way the real world does. Do you have to run it that way? No. But the default has to be that wheels and swords and fire and ice and water and air work pretty much exactly the same way they do in the real world, or everyone will just be confused all the time.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
This new lineage idea, does it make room for races which are biologically superior or inferior in some way?
To try to answer the original question: No, it does not. The lineages don't leave room for races which are biologically superior or inferior because the lineages are not tied to any given race. Anything you gain from a lineage seems to supersede your original racial benefits. In this case, it makes sense. If you've been turned into a Dhampir, were born as part-hag, or are basically a Frankenstien's monster, it does not really matter if you were a halfling or a half orc before.
If you feel that a Dhampir (originally Halfling) should be dexterous because it has a halfling body, you can put the floating ASI into +2 Dex +1 something else. On the flip side, if you think having quasi-vampiric powers would give a normal Halfling supernatural strength, then you could put the floating ASI into +2 Str, +1 Dex and still be true to both its origins and the lineage.
One problem with comparing the new lineage system (and floating ASIs) to the PHB races is everyone seems to assume that WotC will release new races that have floating ASIs. Instead they might feel they have "enough" base races and for the foreseeable future want to instead work on these supernatural/strange lineages that could be "fit to form" for any race. The floating ASIs will allow you to get all the benefits of the lineage while still putting the ASIs where you think they should be based on either the biological race of the creature OR the thematic empowerments granted by having that lineage. Its your choice. And thats whats important
The game is designed around the idea that the game world works mostly the way the real world does. Do you have to run it that way? No. But the default has to be that wheels and swords and fire and ice and water and air work pretty much exactly the same way they do in the real world, or everyone will just be confused all the time.
You're mistaken. The game is not designed around the idea that the game world works mostly the way the real world does. It is designed around the idea that the game world works mostly as Western Europeans thought the world worked in some vaguely medieval time. That is, magic. No biochemistry.
Spells in the game don't work exactly as they do in the real world because magic isn't real. Dragons don't work exactly as they do in the real world because dragons aren't real. Halflings don't work exactly as they do in the real world because Halflings aren't real.
Yet we speak of spells, dragons, and Halflings and people don't get confused. How is this possible if they don't work pretty much exactly as they do in the real world?
Hint: people aren't stupid.
But even the magic functions in a way that is inspired by, and mostly follows, the rules of physics. For example, fireballs may appear in a way that is fantastical, but, having appeared, they act exactly the way a real-world fireball would act: they are hot; they burn things; they singe clothing; etc.
You think some dude wearing a big hat pointing at a place that suddenly explodes in fire is inspired by physics? And a fireball that has a radius of 20 feet exactly and does absolutely nothing to anything outside that radius is inspired by physics? A fireball that you can use underwater or on the astral plane is inspired by physics?
A combat where everybody politely waits their turn is based on the real world? In the real world you can fall off a cliff, almost die, and wake up fully refreshed after 8 hours sleep? How often do you walk down a real world hallway and encounter a 10 foot cube of self-propelled acidic jello?
The entire point of D&D is that you're not in the real world, you're in a fantastic world. Maybe you prefer a world where elves work 9-5 to support their families, giants get hernias trying to pick up their clubs, and centaurs spend hours at the chiropractor, but you cannot expect everybody else to abide by the limitations of your imagination.
I'll keep playing in a world where heroes can perform epic feats without somebody nagging them about going to the dentist and counting their calories.
One problem with comparing the new lineage system (and floating ASIs) to the PHB races is everyone seems to assume that WotC will release new races that have floating ASIs. Instead they might feel they have "enough" base races and for the foreseeable future want to instead work on these supernatural/strange lineages that could be "fit to form" for any race.
Dragonlance is certain to be one of the 3 classic settings WotC is working on, and it won't be Dragonlance if Draconians aren't included. Given their canonical creation, the corruption of dragon eggs, I don't see a lot of room to turn them into a "fit to form" lineage.
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I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
In and of itself, a strong small race isn’t a problem if an explanation is given why that race is strong. Why are 1/2 Orcs relatively weak compared to every other race (after all, given their size and musculature, they should be stronger than every other race smaller than then except perhaps dwarves, but these smaller races can be as strong as 1/2 Orcs). Maybe 1/2 Orcs are diseased or cursed. You can totally build a world where that’s the case as long as you answer “why?”
But saying that biomechanics simply don’t matter to PC attributes ever? That’s gonna be a pretty big “why?” to explain.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
In and of itself, a strong small race isn’t a problem if an explanation is given why that race is strong. Why are 1/2 Orcs relatively weak compared to every other race (after all, given their size and musculature, they should be stronger than every other race smaller than then except perhaps dwarves, but these smaller races can be as strong as 1/2 Orcs). Maybe 1/2 Orcs are diseased or cursed. You can totally build a world where that’s the case as long as you answer “why?”
But saying that biomechanics simply don’t matter to PC attributes ever? That’s gonna be a pretty big “why?” to explain.
I don't want to get to deep into this because I think it is really just a matter of where you draw the line at "realism" in your games, but do you put this much thought into how a human gets down with a living rock and that union some how results in a child? That part makes sense to you, but a halfling having the same potential strength every other PC race has is weird?
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
In and of itself, a strong small race isn’t a problem if an explanation is given why that race is strong. Why are 1/2 Orcs relatively weak compared to every other race (after all, given their size and musculature, they should be stronger than every other race smaller than then except perhaps dwarves, but these smaller races can be as strong as 1/2 Orcs). Maybe 1/2 Orcs are diseased or cursed. You can totally build a world where that’s the case as long as you answer “why?”
But saying that biomechanics simply don’t matter to PC attributes ever? That’s gonna be a pretty big “why?” to explain.
I don't want to get to deep into this because I think it is really just a matter of where you draw the line at "realism" in your games, but do you put this much thought into how a human gets down with a living rock and that union some how results in a child? That part makes sense to you, but a halfling having the same potential strength every other PC race has is weird?
Grenasi are the offspring of genii and mortals. As genii are fundamentally magical beings capable of casting Wish, I think the answers to “How?” and “Why?” are given.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
In and of itself, a strong small race isn’t a problem if an explanation is given why that race is strong. Why are 1/2 Orcs relatively weak compared to every other race (after all, given their size and musculature, they should be stronger than every other race smaller than then except perhaps dwarves, but these smaller races can be as strong as 1/2 Orcs). Maybe 1/2 Orcs are diseased or cursed. You can totally build a world where that’s the case as long as you answer “why?”
But saying that biomechanics simply don’t matter to PC attributes ever? That’s gonna be a pretty big “why?” to explain.
I don't want to get to deep into this because I think it is really just a matter of where you draw the line at "realism" in your games, but do you put this much thought into how a human gets down with a living rock and that union some how results in a child? That part makes sense to you, but a halfling having the same potential strength every other PC race has is weird?
Not speaking for anyone else here, but for me that's the exact reason why I draw the line at racial ASIs but not at genasi conception: because the former makes sense from our real world perspective and the latter doesn't. I can explain one based on "normal" assumptions, but not the other. Because of that, halfling strongmen are weird but genasi are just fantastical. And there's lots of indications in the game that bigger likely means stronger to boot (just compare the average strength of larger monsters to smaller ones for one) so these assumptions on the whole get confirmed, not contradicted.
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You think some dude wearing a big hat pointing at a place that suddenly explodes in fire is inspired by physics? And a fireball that has a radius of 20 feet exactly and does absolutely nothing to anything outside that radius is inspired by physics? A fireball that you can use underwater or on the astral plane is inspired by physics?
A combat where everybody politely waits their turn is based on the real world? In the real world you can fall off a cliff, almost die, and wake up fully refreshed after 8 hours sleep? How often do you walk down a real world hallway and encounter a 10 foot cube of self-propelled acidic jello?
But fire is still hot, and burns things. Acid is still corrosive, and rots things. Water is still wet. And air is still lighter than water, at least on the prime material plane. Metal is hard, sponges are soft, ice floats, heavy objects sink, rain falls to the ground, ice is slippery, humans need to eat (at least by default in RAW), the roots of plants grow toward the ground and their shoots grow toward the sky (at least by default, not including Treants or something like this), trees provide shade, evergreens keep their leaves in winter, and a whole host of other generic "defaults" about the world exist.
We need some sort of common frame of reference for things like what is fire, what is ice, what is acid, or else the game would become literally unplayable, as you have to stop with every noun or verb and explain to the players of the game what the word means in your world.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
In and of itself, a strong small race isn’t a problem if an explanation is given why that race is strong. Why are 1/2 Orcs relatively weak compared to every other race (after all, given their size and musculature, they should be stronger than every other race smaller than then except perhaps dwarves, but these smaller races can be as strong as 1/2 Orcs). Maybe 1/2 Orcs are diseased or cursed. You can totally build a world where that’s the case as long as you answer “why?”
But saying that biomechanics simply don’t matter to PC attributes ever? That’s gonna be a pretty big “why?” to explain.
I don't want to get to deep into this because I think it is really just a matter of where you draw the line at "realism" in your games, but do you put this much thought into how a human gets down with a living rock and that union some how results in a child? That part makes sense to you, but a halfling having the same potential strength every other PC race has is weird?
Grenasi are the offspring of genii and mortals. As genii are fundamentally magical beings capable of casting Wish, I think the answers to “How?” and “Why?” are given.
Like I said, all a matter of where you draw the line. It is a personal choice. You easily accept how one magical race works, but not another based on your own personal preferences and that is fine.
Thought experiment - replace "halfling" with "elf" in these examples and see if it's still a problem. Same ASI in the core book. Indeed, despite the Small size, stout halflings have more stamina.
Halfling have the Small quality while Goliath and Orc have Powerful Build. Tweaking those can solve the Small v. Large issue. So, let's try talking about two Medium critters. Is it a problem then? How about the gith? Is it a problem if they're as strong as a half-orc?
If size is the problem, then an easy solution is to focus on the actual Size mechanics.
I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
In and of itself, a strong small race isn’t a problem if an explanation is given why that race is strong. Why are 1/2 Orcs relatively weak compared to every other race (after all, given their size and musculature, they should be stronger than every other race smaller than then except perhaps dwarves, but these smaller races can be as strong as 1/2 Orcs). Maybe 1/2 Orcs are diseased or cursed. You can totally build a world where that’s the case as long as you answer “why?”
But saying that biomechanics simply don’t matter to PC attributes ever? That’s gonna be a pretty big “why?” to explain.
I don't want to get to deep into this because I think it is really just a matter of where you draw the line at "realism" in your games, but do you put this much thought into how a human gets down with a living rock and that union some how results in a child? That part makes sense to you, but a halfling having the same potential strength every other PC race has is weird?
Grenasi are the offspring of genii and mortals. As genii are fundamentally magical beings capable of casting Wish, I think the answers to “How?” and “Why?” are given.
Like I said, all a matter of where you draw the line. It is a personal choice. You easily accept how one magical race works, but not another based on your own personal preferences and that is fine.
Let’s make sure we’re comparing apples to apples. On the one hand, biomechanics are irrelevant to any race attribute regardless of race with no in-game reason given. On the other hand, genii can have an offspring with a mortal, that genii can cast wish.
that’s not apples to apples, it is more like tuna fish and trombones.
Halfling have the Small quality while Goliath and Orc have Powerful Build. Tweaking those can solve the Small v. Large issue.
Goliaths and orcs are both medium, not large. And while Powerful Build is not uncommon among the stronger races, it's far from ubiqitous: dragonborn don't have it, neither do half-orcs, minotaurs, tortles or centaurs. On the flip side, loxodons don't have a Str bonus but do have Powerful Build.
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That's not what Mephista was saying, Pang. He was pointing out that absolutely nobody has any issue whatsoever with an elf (i.e. a slender, effeminate creature known for being light and lithe) having the same potential Strength as an orc (i.e. a massive, hulking brute of a critter known for being bulky and overmuscled). People lose their mind over Small creatures having 'the same Strength' as Strength-focused Medium creatures, but they don't - Powerful Build gives the half0orc and the like a decided edge. Mephista was suggesting that perhaps the Size mechanics are a better fix for Small creatures feeling too physically burly than forcing Small creatures to be terrible at Strength is.
Halfling have the Small quality while Goliath and Orc have Powerful Build. Tweaking those can solve the Small v. Large issue.
Goliaths and orcs are both medium, not large. And while Powerful Build is not uncommon among the stronger races, it's far from ubiqitous: dragonborn don't have it, neither do half-orcs, minotaurs, tortles or centaurs. On the flip side, loxodons don't have a Str bonus but do have Powerful Build.
But tweaking Small quality can still solve the issue. The entire argument is based on size.
No one is talking about elves with high Strength, nor thieving dwarves with high Dexterity, or gnomes with high Charisma. Only halflings.
Halfling have the Small quality while Goliath and Orc have Powerful Build. Tweaking those can solve the Small v. Large issue.
Goliaths and orcs are both medium, not large. And while Powerful Build is not uncommon among the stronger races, it's far from ubiqitous: dragonborn don't have it, neither do half-orcs, minotaurs, tortles or centaurs. On the flip side, loxodons don't have a Str bonus but do have Powerful Build.
But tweaking Small quality can still solve the issue. The entire argument is based on size.
No one is talking about elves with high Strength, nor thieving dwarves with high Dexterity, or gnomes with high Charisma. Only halflings.
Because it's the obvious example, and because 5E did away with negative racial ability modifiers. Halflings, gnomes, kobolds and goblins being equally strong as dwarves on average already stretches belief. What would a suggested tweak to being Small entail?
That aside, again, nobody's stopping elves from being strong, dwarves from being dexterous or gnomes from being charismatic. Rolling stats in order is not a thing, and we don't get told what to do or not to do with our class-based ASIs. Thanks to bounded accuracy everybody has the same potential anyway - the difference is one of cost.
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Yeah, it is a very controversial topic to be sure. I know a lot of people are hung up on it, but honestly I think their energy would be better spent looking at what future possibilities there may be than fighting against the flow. I do get it though. Humans really don't like change.
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I keep hearing this argument that I’m complaining about questionable science in a fantasy world.
Of course, people are not going to read back to see that I’ve already addressed this. I anticipate that I’m going to have to keep repeating myself on this point ad nauseum.
First off, the claim that it is a fantasy world and that makes anything permissible is obviously flawed. I need not say anything more.
It is a shared world. Could you make wagons fly? Sure. Could you make all wagons soft, spongey, the size of your fist, and taste good? It is a fantasy world, so okay. Could you keep making these kinds of changes? Maybe rocks have PTSD and taste like harp music? Maybe harp music has wheels and carries elephants down lemon sounding butterscotch?
Clearly, just because it is fantasy doesn’t mean everything is possible.
People come to the game expecting things to work according to science. When those things don’t, then they need to be explained. An explanation can be as simple as “it’s magic.” Why can dragons fly? “It’s magic.” That’s okay. But, that might require other explanations. “Why are dragons so magical?” Well, in DND, there’s a huge body of lore explaining why dragons are so magical.
So, the question comes up with your proposal, “why are all these lightweight, tiny-muscled 1/2ling PC fighters able to bend the same iron bars as the average 1/2 Orc PC fighters two times taller, 8 times more massive, whose biceps are bigger than the 1/2 king’s heads?” You can say it is magic, but then you have to explain why the 1/2lings have this magic.
”Because a bunch of woke kids thought it was discriminatory not to” breaks the suspension of disbelief.
Given the responses, you clearly need to say more. I don't see the obvious flaw, or any flaw for that matter.
In my world, Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes were created by the Earth Mothers out of clay, rock, and gems respectively. They don't have DNA. They don't have blood types. They're not just different sized real-world humans, they are creatures created by the gods. Just like all the other life on my world.
There, done. Argue all the real world science you want, but I get to decide how things work on my world. That's the joy of magic. You can have boats that defy gravity, sprawling cities under the ocean, islands floating on lava, talking sharks, and huts that are bigger on the inside than the outside. And you don't have to explain it with science. It's magic.
You can have all the science you want in your world, but don't try to dictate to me how my world must work.
Ah. I missed what your real problem was. I'm an old man and I think your real argument is sad and depressing.
But does clay on your world work pretty much the way clay does on ours? That is to say, is it the smallest grain size of the 3 primary grain sizes of soil (clay smallest, silt medium, sand largest)? Can it be used to make pottery, and does the pottery (generally) match the consistency of clay-made pottery in the real world? Or does your clay look like those styrofoam packing peanuts and have the same basic consistency?
Do rocks look and weigh pretty much the way they do here? Do you have forms of it like granite, marble, volcanic glass, and so forth? Do these rocks have the same basic type of substance and form we have in our world? Or are your "rocks" the consistency of wool, soft and warm and snuggly to cover yourself with on a cold night?
Are your gems hunks of mineral crystals, like we find in the real world, formed into things like ruby and diamond and emerald? Or are your gems squishy with the consistency of squid or octopus bodies, and stinking of fish brine?
Although I don't want to put words in your mouth (or in your forum posts), I strongly suspect, because you used the words "clay," and "rock," and "gems" in your post, that you meant us to take these words to mean the same thing as they mean in the real world -- that if, instead, you had meant to say that halflings were made out of packing peanuts, you'd have said that.
But Wren's point is, if you just say 'It's a magic world so none of the physical or biological laws as we know of apply to it,' then there is no common language we can use to understand each other. If we start to establish that nothing in the D&D world works anything like in the real world -- rather than what has always been assumed, which is that it works almost entirely like our world except where magic "edits" things a little bit -- then you have to define every term. You're going to have to tell me what the word "sword" means because I can't assume it is a long flat blade made of metal. And we're going to need to talk about what "metal" is in your world. Is there any? Or are swords made out of lollipops? Do people mine gold from the mountains, or do they mine water from it? Do they pay each other in "gold pieces" that are actually slabs of ice? Again all these things are possible, but even here -- if the physical laws don't work, then do you even have ice? Why or why not?
The human brain can only hold so many variables in it, and so what all RPGs have done since the beginning is to present us with rules for having a world that closely mimics in its basic functions (the basic physics, biology, and chemistry) the real world, so that we all understand what clay is, what rocks are, and what gems are, and then goes a step beyond it into the realm of the magical.
But even the magic functions in a way that is inspired by, and mostly follows, the rules of physics. For example, fireballs may appear in a way that is fantastical, but, having appeared, they act exactly the way a real-world fireball would act: they are hot; they burn things; they singe clothing; etc. Of course you're free to do whatever you want in your world but I'm fairly sure most of the time, when fireball is cast for the fist time, players aren't wondering what sort of an effect it will have... and DMs aren't saying things like, "In my world, fire is chocolate so you just blasted the enemy with a chocolate ball". And in most worlds I would think people aren't sitting around camp-chocolate holding out buzz-saws to to make "smores" out of saws and fishing line.
This is true for most spells... Water breathing assumes normal, biological, lungs-and-oxygen based breathing. Darkness acts like real-world darkness. Lightning Bolt acts like an actual bolt of lightning, give or take. You don't cast Water Breathing and now your character is able to breathe wood... Darkness and the room fills with buzzards... Lightning Bolt and a fountain of ice cream sprays the target. Water still means H2O... breathing still means inhaling oxygen... darkness still means the absence of light.... and lighting bolt still means a zap of electricity. At least RAW. You'd be talking about a major amount of home-brew to make it different.
The game is designed around the idea that the game world works mostly the way the real world does. Do you have to run it that way? No. But the default has to be that wheels and swords and fire and ice and water and air work pretty much exactly the same way they do in the real world, or everyone will just be confused all the time.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
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I don't completely disagree with you BioWizard, but when it comes to biology in D&D I am sure you have noticed that a lot of creatures don't work as they would in the real world. The Races that have been published break all manner of real world rules of biology and physics. Genasi are a really good example of creatures that should not exist yet are playable in D&D. How does a human mate with an elemental?! Evolution in D&D is thrown right out the window with races being created by divine powers fully formed and developed.
Yes, some semblance of reality must be maintained for us humans to work within the premise, but I honestly don't see how small humanoids being strong is more disruptive than humans with fire for hair or gemstone growing out of their skin.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
To try to answer the original question: No, it does not. The lineages don't leave room for races which are biologically superior or inferior because the lineages are not tied to any given race. Anything you gain from a lineage seems to supersede your original racial benefits. In this case, it makes sense. If you've been turned into a Dhampir, were born as part-hag, or are basically a Frankenstien's monster, it does not really matter if you were a halfling or a half orc before.
If you feel that a Dhampir (originally Halfling) should be dexterous because it has a halfling body, you can put the floating ASI into +2 Dex +1 something else. On the flip side, if you think having quasi-vampiric powers would give a normal Halfling supernatural strength, then you could put the floating ASI into +2 Str, +1 Dex and still be true to both its origins and the lineage.
One problem with comparing the new lineage system (and floating ASIs) to the PHB races is everyone seems to assume that WotC will release new races that have floating ASIs. Instead they might feel they have "enough" base races and for the foreseeable future want to instead work on these supernatural/strange lineages that could be "fit to form" for any race. The floating ASIs will allow you to get all the benefits of the lineage while still putting the ASIs where you think they should be based on either the biological race of the creature OR the thematic empowerments granted by having that lineage. Its your choice. And thats whats important
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You're mistaken. The game is not designed around the idea that the game world works mostly the way the real world does. It is designed around the idea that the game world works mostly as Western Europeans thought the world worked in some vaguely medieval time. That is, magic. No biochemistry.
Spells in the game don't work exactly as they do in the real world because magic isn't real. Dragons don't work exactly as they do in the real world because dragons aren't real. Halflings don't work exactly as they do in the real world because Halflings aren't real.
Yet we speak of spells, dragons, and Halflings and people don't get confused. How is this possible if they don't work pretty much exactly as they do in the real world?
Hint: people aren't stupid.
You think some dude wearing a big hat pointing at a place that suddenly explodes in fire is inspired by physics? And a fireball that has a radius of 20 feet exactly and does absolutely nothing to anything outside that radius is inspired by physics? A fireball that you can use underwater or on the astral plane is inspired by physics?
A combat where everybody politely waits their turn is based on the real world? In the real world you can fall off a cliff, almost die, and wake up fully refreshed after 8 hours sleep? How often do you walk down a real world hallway and encounter a 10 foot cube of self-propelled acidic jello?
The entire point of D&D is that you're not in the real world, you're in a fantastic world. Maybe you prefer a world where elves work 9-5 to support their families, giants get hernias trying to pick up their clubs, and centaurs spend hours at the chiropractor, but you cannot expect everybody else to abide by the limitations of your imagination.
I'll keep playing in a world where heroes can perform epic feats without somebody nagging them about going to the dentist and counting their calories.
Dragonlance is certain to be one of the 3 classic settings WotC is working on, and it won't be Dragonlance if Draconians aren't included. Given their canonical creation, the corruption of dragon eggs, I don't see a lot of room to turn them into a "fit to form" lineage.
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In and of itself, a strong small race isn’t a problem if an explanation is given why that race is strong. Why are 1/2 Orcs relatively weak compared to every other race (after all, given their size and musculature, they should be stronger than every other race smaller than then except perhaps dwarves, but these smaller races can be as strong as 1/2 Orcs). Maybe 1/2 Orcs are diseased or cursed. You can totally build a world where that’s the case as long as you answer “why?”
But saying that biomechanics simply don’t matter to PC attributes ever? That’s gonna be a pretty big “why?” to explain.
I don't want to get to deep into this because I think it is really just a matter of where you draw the line at "realism" in your games, but do you put this much thought into how a human gets down with a living rock and that union some how results in a child? That part makes sense to you, but a halfling having the same potential strength every other PC race has is weird?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Grenasi are the offspring of genii and mortals. As genii are fundamentally magical beings capable of casting Wish, I think the answers to “How?” and “Why?” are given.
Not speaking for anyone else here, but for me that's the exact reason why I draw the line at racial ASIs but not at genasi conception: because the former makes sense from our real world perspective and the latter doesn't. I can explain one based on "normal" assumptions, but not the other. Because of that, halfling strongmen are weird but genasi are just fantastical. And there's lots of indications in the game that bigger likely means stronger to boot (just compare the average strength of larger monsters to smaller ones for one) so these assumptions on the whole get confirmed, not contradicted.
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But fire is still hot, and burns things. Acid is still corrosive, and rots things. Water is still wet. And air is still lighter than water, at least on the prime material plane. Metal is hard, sponges are soft, ice floats, heavy objects sink, rain falls to the ground, ice is slippery, humans need to eat (at least by default in RAW), the roots of plants grow toward the ground and their shoots grow toward the sky (at least by default, not including Treants or something like this), trees provide shade, evergreens keep their leaves in winter, and a whole host of other generic "defaults" about the world exist.
We need some sort of common frame of reference for things like what is fire, what is ice, what is acid, or else the game would become literally unplayable, as you have to stop with every noun or verb and explain to the players of the game what the word means in your world.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Like I said, all a matter of where you draw the line. It is a personal choice. You easily accept how one magical race works, but not another based on your own personal preferences and that is fine.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Thought experiment - replace "halfling" with "elf" in these examples and see if it's still a problem. Same ASI in the core book. Indeed, despite the Small size, stout halflings have more stamina.
Halfling have the Small quality while Goliath and Orc have Powerful Build. Tweaking those can solve the Small v. Large issue. So, let's try talking about two Medium critters. Is it a problem then? How about the gith? Is it a problem if they're as strong as a half-orc?
If size is the problem, then an easy solution is to focus on the actual Size mechanics.
Let’s make sure we’re comparing apples to apples. On the one hand, biomechanics are irrelevant to any race attribute regardless of race with no in-game reason given. On the other hand, genii can have an offspring with a mortal, that genii can cast wish.
that’s not apples to apples, it is more like tuna fish and trombones.
Goliaths and orcs are both medium, not large. And while Powerful Build is not uncommon among the stronger races, it's far from ubiqitous: dragonborn don't have it, neither do half-orcs, minotaurs, tortles or centaurs. On the flip side, loxodons don't have a Str bonus but do have Powerful Build.
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That's not what Mephista was saying, Pang. He was pointing out that absolutely nobody has any issue whatsoever with an elf (i.e. a slender, effeminate creature known for being light and lithe) having the same potential Strength as an orc (i.e. a massive, hulking brute of a critter known for being bulky and overmuscled). People lose their mind over Small creatures having 'the same Strength' as Strength-focused Medium creatures, but they don't - Powerful Build gives the half0orc and the like a decided edge. Mephista was suggesting that perhaps the Size mechanics are a better fix for Small creatures feeling too physically burly than forcing Small creatures to be terrible at Strength is.
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But tweaking Small quality can still solve the issue. The entire argument is based on size.
No one is talking about elves with high Strength, nor thieving dwarves with high Dexterity, or gnomes with high Charisma. Only halflings.
Because it's the obvious example, and because 5E did away with negative racial ability modifiers. Halflings, gnomes, kobolds and goblins being equally strong as dwarves on average already stretches belief. What would a suggested tweak to being Small entail?
That aside, again, nobody's stopping elves from being strong, dwarves from being dexterous or gnomes from being charismatic. Rolling stats in order is not a thing, and we don't get told what to do or not to do with our class-based ASIs. Thanks to bounded accuracy everybody has the same potential anyway - the difference is one of cost.
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