3d6 is not an "Old School" method, its very specifically a 1st edition B/X method. Its the only place it has ever appeared or been used in D&D as a method at all with exception to the White Box.
As a player, i'm okay with point buy, standard array or even dice rolling methods. I even welcome the challenge to assign them in order if the DM use it!
As a DM, i usually use point buy ot standard array for online gaming and one shots. For campaign in person i usually use dice rolling method.
As someone said on the first page back in February, there's a lot more that goes into making a character unique than just your starting stats. And it's not likely you're locked into min maxing your point buy stats either. Or that there's no variation. You can either get creative with your stats or not, it applies to all dice rolling.
For example, my rogue has a strength of 8 and a con of 10, because I imagine her as toothpick, slender sniper type. Agile but not able to take hits super well, relying on range. I got this character via rolled stats but could have just as easily made her with point buy favoring dex and int and making str and con her dump stats.
I mostly prefer point buy for long term games because it puts people off on the same playing field. Rolling can be unfun if you have a big disparity between peoples rolls, and if you allow people to keep rolling until they like what they got it kind of defeats the purpose, just let them point buy or standard array but with more points/higher numbers to go around. Worst of all, rolling could stick you with rather boring, average scores like having several 12/13 scores without any defined strengths or weaknesses.
If fun for you and your table is standard array, 3d6 in order, 4d6 drop lowest, point buy, or anything else, then fine, play the way you want. No one is stopping you or judging you for doing that. But likewise, don't belittle, denigrate, demean, mock, or gatekeep when others do things differently. The only "correct" way to play D&D is the way that allows people and their tables to have fun doing it.
Yeah, this is the most important part.
Although I have not been in a lot of online D&D communities (mostly Beyond and occasionally Reddit), it seems like roleplayers are the most toxic, judgmental, and authoritarian people around as they are the ones whining and shitting on powergamers. I know not all of roleplayers are like that, but the behavior of a few not only reflects poorly on roleplayers as a group, it also reflects poorly on the entire D&D community to outsiders as well. They make power gamers look like saints, and honestly, issues of metagaming seem pretty trivial to deal with once you browse DMing guides and how-to's a bit. I have collected plenty of tools to deal with power gaming on the fly if I really need to up the challenge (my personal favorites are fluctuating monster HP, enemy reinforcements, and the classic fudging of dice rolls). Out of session, I can just pull a player to the side or have a session zero for the group and reexamine our expectations if things really get out of hand. At worst, I can always just kick a player or end the campaign and restart with fewer players.
On the other hand, I am not sure I have the tools to deal with killjoy and unpleasantness outside of screening, talking, and kicking, but those are all out of session tools. If the first thing a person spouts is "I hate powergamers", "I hate Tasha's", "I hate this", and "I hate that" 99% of the time, I guess filtering them out during sessions zero is not going to be that difficult, or if I am a player, I would just simply run as far away from those kinds of tables.
if you think the anti-power gamers (or Real Role Players as they often refer to themselves) are bad you should peek in on the Rules Lawyers, the Munchkins, the Min-maxers, and the power gamers themselves. It has nothing to do with the faction but with the nature of humans and the anonymity afforded by the internet. In my pre-retirement occupation we called them Radio Rambos always big bad bully boys when you couldnt look them in the eye.
if you think the anti-power gamers (or Real Role Players as they often refer to themselves) are bad you should peek in on the Rules Lawyers, the Munchkins, the Min-maxers, and the power gamers themselves. It has nothing to do with the faction but with the nature of humans and the anonymity afforded by the internet. In my pre-retirement occupation we called them Radio Rambos always big bad bully boys when you couldnt look them in the eye.
I never had an issue with munchkins, min-maxers, and power gamers, and I still have not encountered any problematic players from that group. I have an infinite army at my finger tips, and I can even clad each of my soldier with plot armor on a whim, so powerful PCs are not a threat at all.
What I do have an issue with are jerks and ******** who talk shit about others and shove their narrow view of the game down others' throats. I have seen this coming from a few vocal roleplayers, but I have not seen this from powergamers.
Then clearly we are not visiting the same forum sites. Cause that vitriol is endemic to a portion of all the factions of the hobby. Yes at the table none of them are a threat if you are half decent GM. But... I have personally seen just as many "my way is the only correct way to play" garbage come from optimizers because someone refused to optimize their character for combat. From Rules Lawyers because a GM had the temerity to restrict access to just 3 books and another was attacked just a viciously for refusing use an optional rule. Same from munchkins because rather than deal with their blatant imbalanced rules mutilation a GM flat out said no you cannot have that, but I will allow this much saner and more balanced variant in its stead. And seen tantrums from powergamer sites that put the rest to shame because they were asked to tone it back a bit so they didnt out shine the rest of table. The problem is not isolated to any one "faction". Hell take look at the "discussions" (assuming they havent been locked/deleted yet) between the more "vocal" adherents in the eternal Linear Story vs Open World debates on other forums.
Here on DDB we dont see as much (if at all) because they have a decent mod team and over all the posters are fairly level headed. But there are some true cesspools of fourms out there too.
Sry for the necro, but for me if I’m rolling; I just do 4d6 drop the lowest, assign in order. It’s like the classic methods from 2e and I get to figure out who the character is based on those roles. That to me is when stat rolls is good for role play.
Rolling in front of the DM and others I rolled a 18 18 18 18 14 12 character once. Fighter/Mage/Thief he had the stats to triple class. It was broken beyond belief the short time I played it. I talked to the DM and rerolled retiring the character because it was not even enjoyable.
I used to be a 4d6 purist but now feel point buy or array really creates balanced characters and good RP. Game is really balanced for point buy/array, stats above those can start making encounters too easy.
That said I believe in having a mercy reroll if using 4d6 for low stats, though if a player wants to play them for RP challenge purposes, that's great too.
And there it is. Sorry, but DM's ARE Deities. They create the entire game's setting. Players can and will run with the tools and encounters the DM puts before the players, but the DM MAKES THE RULES, not the other way around. I have no idea if you DM. I infer from your posts that you do not. But a good, even decent, DM is far more valuable to the entire community that any one player. You may not like that idea. But it is fact. Keeping a DM happy is key. And only a DM can do that for himself.
The player is always welcome to find another table. Sorry, but not every single problem a player has matters. That does not happen in the real world either.
I'd posit, it should go both ways, and the DMs job is the make the players happy... IE run a fun story for the players. If the DM doesn't have fun doing that, I'd suggest not DMing. And rather than gods DMs are judges. If you are feeling god like as a DM you've got issues.
Yes the player is welcome to find another table. I'd posit that kind of DM is going to find they don't have a lot of players if any if they are acting like 'gods'.
I would respond to Vince's post directly but given that they haven't logged in to DDB for six months and their last post was before I even started playing D&D, I doubt they'd even see it. The point is worth saying though:
DMs being gods is not a declaration of authority but of power. It's a declaration of power, that the DM should always feel free to adapt and do what's right for the table, and is not bound by the rules in doing so. It's not a declaration of authority, they are not the bosses of the table to whom the players must submit their entire will to and without question. Instead, it's a collaborative effort, both the opinions of the DM and the player matter and should be accounted for.
Too often I hear of attitudes to the effect that the DM's or the player's enjoyment is not important. Neither is remotely true. If you think one is true, then you're not a good player or DM.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I could go on, but the point has been made beautifully, and finally, by all these power-gamers. The reason people want to use the 4d6 system is to get better stats than the standard array or the 27 point buy. There is no other reason. And if they can't get their way, the idea is to wreck the game for everyone else.
Well, they are doing it wrong. The idea behind using dice for stats isn't optimizaation but because D&D at it's heart is a dice game, and the concept of having a random character is what makes the game fun for me.
Also as DM I use the reroll once rule, as I personally don't want a player with stats lower than 6... technically very possible to have horrible rolls. However generally 12 should be the common stat aka a +1. usually most players have a -1 or -2 in one stat, a +0 in 2 stats, two stats around +1 or +2, and one stat +3 or +4. since you can not get higher than a +5 without a massive epic boon and legandary gear it's easy for me as DM to design the campaign around. I also love the inbuilt extra weakness that I can target esp when they have a -2. Basically players think they are more powerful, but I as DM gain the freedom to have better creatures and more failed saves than the point buys and arrays.
Rolling in front of the DM and others I rolled a 18 18 18 18 14 12 character once. Fighter/Mage/Thief he had the stats to triple class. It was broken beyond belief the short time I played it. I talked to the DM and rerolled retiring the character because it was not even enjoyable.
I used to be a 4d6 purist but now feel point buy or array really creates balanced characters and good RP. Game is really balanced for point buy/array, stats above those can start making encounters too easy.
That said I believe in having a mercy reroll if using 4d6 for low stats, though if a player wants to play them for RP challenge purposes, that's great too.
My partner has that kind of luck.
As a DM I use the roll method, and my mercy is always reroll 1's and on reroll on a 2. For a live game this avoids someone having a 3 in a stat as 6 becomes the lowest possible stat, likewise 18 is the max.
I also like the roll in order method.
Str: 12
Dex: 9
Con: 8
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 14
And the not used anymore (Com): 11
Now take those stats and figure out what class or be daring and roll for it:
Now for class and species
Class: 16 reroll if higher than 13, or pick from the non standard D&D classes.
Species: 16 reroll if higher than 16, or pick from older content or non standard species.
Well, they are doing it wrong. The idea behind using dice for stats isn't optimizaation but because D&D at it's heart is a dice game, and the concept of having a random character is what makes the game fun for me.
For others, it's not that important, except that random rolled stats can make for characters who distort the group dynamics because of their stats.
Also as DM I use the reroll once rule, as I personally don't want a player with stats lower than 6
If you don't want a stat lower than 6, I'd suggest using a rolling method that makes it impossible. 2d6+4, for instance. It's higher variance than 3d6, but doesn't allow for the extreme lows or highs.
(I'm of the opinion that, if you're rolling stats, anything in the range ought to be an option. I've seen people here arguing that a character with a 3 stat is literally unplayable, and if that was supposed to be the case, it shouldn't be possible to end up with a character with a 3 stat.)
Variance is the real problem with randomly rolled characters, where one player ends up with significantly high or low stats, and it affects people's play experience. While 5e lets people improve their stats over time, the subsystem isn't designed for it -- the interesting feat vs. ASI tradeoff breaks down at both ends, where either you're taking the fun, interesting abilities because you don't need the stat boosts, or you need the stat boosts, so the fun abilities are off the table.
But there are ways to do random stats while reducing or eliminating the inter-character variance. The simplest would be to assign the standard array at random. One could also keep randomly choosing which stat to boost through the point system until you're out of points. (Although that approach needs something to avoid overly-flat distributions, most likely by having a bunch of large chunks of boosts up front.)
(And, of course, there's nothing requiring using the standard standard array or point systems.)
As a DM I use the roll method, and my mercy is always reroll 1's and on reroll on a 2. For a live game this avoids someone having a 3 in a stat as 6 becomes the lowest possible stat, likewise 18 is the max.
Well, they are doing it wrong. The idea behind using dice for stats isn't optimizaation but because D&D at it's heart is a dice game, and the concept of having a random character is what makes the game fun for me.
For others, it's not that important, except that random rolled stats can make for characters who distort the group dynamics because of their stats.
Also as DM I use the reroll once rule, as I personally don't want a player with stats lower than 6
If you don't want a stat lower than 6, I'd suggest using a rolling method that makes it impossible. 2d6+4, for instance. It's higher variance than 3d6, but doesn't allow for the extreme lows or highs.
(I'm of the opinion that, if you're rolling stats, anything in the range ought to be an option. I've seen people here arguing that a character with a 3 stat is literally unplayable, and if that was supposed to be the case, it shouldn't be possible to end up with a character with a 3 stat.)
Variance is the real problem with randomly rolled characters, where one player ends up with significantly high or low stats, and it affects people's play experience. While 5e lets people improve their stats over time, the subsystem isn't designed for it -- the interesting feat vs. ASI tradeoff breaks down at both ends, where either you're taking the fun, interesting abilities because you don't need the stat boosts, or you need the stat boosts, so the fun abilities are off the table.
But there are ways to do random stats while reducing or eliminating the inter-character variance. The simplest would be to assign the standard array at random. One could also keep randomly choosing which stat to boost through the point system until you're out of points. (Although that approach needs something to avoid overly-flat distributions, most likely by having a bunch of large chunks of boosts up front.)
(And, of course, there's nothing requiring using the standard standard array or point systems.)
if you are quoting me, then read the post fully.
Always reroll 1's means the lowest stat is a 6 on 3d6. 2d6+4 mathmatically is 6-16 while 3d6 always reroll 1s is 6-18. As a DM I have no issue with a player starting the game with a 20, as I know they will never have the kind of growth they expect and if they mid max that hard there will be a weakness I can and will exploint often. I am a fan of targeting dump stats with status effects.
I think it was earlier in the thread (perhaps when it was still a fresh one) when someone said they'd have one set of rolled stats and all players used that rolled array; perhaps DM rolled in front of the players. That would eliminate the inter-player variance while also keeping the "rolled stat" randomness people (claim they) want.
I think it was earlier in the thread (perhaps when it was still a fresh one) when someone said they'd have one set of rolled stats and all players used that rolled array; perhaps DM rolled in front of the players. That would eliminate the inter-player variance while also keeping the "rolled stat" randomness people (claim they) want.
in the end that is what the point buy and array really are, prerolled stats. While yes this does level the characters out to a degree, what it really does is remove the randomnes Even if the DM rolls the array before the game, it's still removing chance. if the DM rolls low, then it's a lowpower game, if the DM rolls high it's a mid max game. That isn't the same as an organically random game.
Take the recent D&D film, the Sorcerer who was at least level 9 at the end of the film clearly he had low stats all around. While the Barbarian girl had mid max stats, plus high wisdom. The MC the eloquence bard he had mid stats but they were fairly consistant across the board. (Note not going off the D&D character sheets, but based on how they preformed in the film)
In the end as a DM I want a mix with my players because you get interesting RP and dynamics that way, the wizard who' is just a nerd and bad at everything, the Paladin who's good at almost everything but as dumb as a fencepost, and the thief who's basically just a random guy trying to survive. I litterally get this interaction at my table all the time. Hells my previous campaign the Barbarian had the highest Int score... meanwhile the Warlock wanted to always get the party into fights. It was histerical how it happened. Of corse this was because the players were all small beast species. So basically Tiny Cute monsters vs the Multiverse. You get these kind of games when you let the random roll for roleplay.
Can you get close with an array, yes technically you should, but the mindset starts off very differant. Players doing an array tend to avoid randomness in the game, they calculate the dice averages, worry about build design, plan their build specifically from 1~17. they have a diagram of how they want to approach each fight. It all becomes chess with a dice at that point.
AD&D 1st and 2nd Edition had 3d6 too
As a player, i'm okay with point buy, standard array or even dice rolling methods. I even welcome the challenge to assign them in order if the DM use it!
As a DM, i usually use point buy ot standard array for online gaming and one shots. For campaign in person i usually use dice rolling method.
Point buy 100%
I tend to prefer point buy for the customization.
As someone said on the first page back in February, there's a lot more that goes into making a character unique than just your starting stats. And it's not likely you're locked into min maxing your point buy stats either. Or that there's no variation. You can either get creative with your stats or not, it applies to all dice rolling.
For example, my rogue has a strength of 8 and a con of 10, because I imagine her as toothpick, slender sniper type. Agile but not able to take hits super well, relying on range. I got this character via rolled stats but could have just as easily made her with point buy favoring dex and int and making str and con her dump stats.
I mostly prefer point buy for long term games because it puts people off on the same playing field. Rolling can be unfun if you have a big disparity between peoples rolls, and if you allow people to keep rolling until they like what they got it kind of defeats the purpose, just let them point buy or standard array but with more points/higher numbers to go around. Worst of all, rolling could stick you with rather boring, average scores like having several 12/13 scores without any defined strengths or weaknesses.
if you think the anti-power gamers (or Real Role Players as they often refer to themselves) are bad you should peek in on the Rules Lawyers, the Munchkins, the Min-maxers, and the power gamers themselves.
It has nothing to do with the faction but with the nature of humans and the anonymity afforded by the internet.
In my pre-retirement occupation we called them Radio Rambos always big bad bully boys when you couldnt look them in the eye.
I never had an issue with munchkins, min-maxers, and power gamers, and I still have not encountered any problematic players from that group. I have an infinite army at my finger tips, and I can even clad each of my soldier with plot armor on a whim, so powerful PCs are not a threat at all.
What I do have an issue with are jerks and ******** who talk shit about others and shove their narrow view of the game down others' throats. I have seen this coming from a few vocal roleplayers, but I have not seen this from powergamers.
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Then clearly we are not visiting the same forum sites.
Cause that vitriol is endemic to a portion of all the factions of the hobby.
Yes at the table none of them are a threat if you are half decent GM.
But...
I have personally seen just as many "my way is the only correct way to play" garbage come from optimizers because someone refused to optimize their character for combat.
From Rules Lawyers because a GM had the temerity to restrict access to just 3 books and another was attacked just a viciously for refusing use an optional rule.
Same from munchkins because rather than deal with their blatant imbalanced rules mutilation a GM flat out said no you cannot have that, but I will allow this much saner and more balanced variant in its stead.
And seen tantrums from powergamer sites that put the rest to shame because they were asked to tone it back a bit so they didnt out shine the rest of table.
The problem is not isolated to any one "faction".
Hell take look at the "discussions" (assuming they havent been locked/deleted yet) between the more "vocal" adherents in the eternal Linear Story vs Open World debates on other forums.
Here on DDB we dont see as much (if at all) because they have a decent mod team and over all the posters are fairly level headed. But there are some true cesspools of fourms out there too.
Sry for the necro, but for me if I’m rolling; I just do 4d6 drop the lowest, assign in order. It’s like the classic methods from 2e and I get to figure out who the character is based on those roles. That to me is when stat rolls is good for role play.
Rolling in front of the DM and others I rolled a 18 18 18 18 14 12 character once. Fighter/Mage/Thief he had the stats to triple class. It was broken beyond belief the short time I played it. I talked to the DM and rerolled retiring the character because it was not even enjoyable.
I used to be a 4d6 purist but now feel point buy or array really creates balanced characters and good RP. Game is really balanced for point buy/array, stats above those can start making encounters too easy.
That said I believe in having a mercy reroll if using 4d6 for low stats, though if a player wants to play them for RP challenge purposes, that's great too.
4d6 stopped being "legit" for us when ASIs came into play. Having a possible 9 points to add to whatever you rolled is too much.
edit: too much for our table anyway.
I'd posit, it should go both ways, and the DMs job is the make the players happy... IE run a fun story for the players. If the DM doesn't have fun doing that, I'd suggest not DMing.
And rather than gods DMs are judges. If you are feeling god like as a DM you've got issues.
Yes the player is welcome to find another table. I'd posit that kind of DM is going to find they don't have a lot of players if any if they are acting like 'gods'.
I would respond to Vince's post directly but given that they haven't logged in to DDB for six months and their last post was before I even started playing D&D, I doubt they'd even see it. The point is worth saying though:
DMs being gods is not a declaration of authority but of power. It's a declaration of power, that the DM should always feel free to adapt and do what's right for the table, and is not bound by the rules in doing so. It's not a declaration of authority, they are not the bosses of the table to whom the players must submit their entire will to and without question. Instead, it's a collaborative effort, both the opinions of the DM and the player matter and should be accounted for.
Too often I hear of attitudes to the effect that the DM's or the player's enjoyment is not important. Neither is remotely true. If you think one is true, then you're not a good player or DM.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Well, they are doing it wrong. The idea behind using dice for stats isn't optimizaation but because D&D at it's heart is a dice game, and the concept of having a random character is what makes the game fun for me.
Also as DM I use the reroll once rule, as I personally don't want a player with stats lower than 6... technically very possible to have horrible rolls. However generally 12 should be the common stat aka a +1. usually most players have a -1 or -2 in one stat, a +0 in 2 stats, two stats around +1 or +2, and one stat +3 or +4. since you can not get higher than a +5 without a massive epic boon and legandary gear it's easy for me as DM to design the campaign around. I also love the inbuilt extra weakness that I can target esp when they have a -2. Basically players think they are more powerful, but I as DM gain the freedom to have better creatures and more failed saves than the point buys and arrays.
random stat roll just to see what I get.
Ability scores: 15 16 10 13 13 13
Ok that was epic... and seriously lucky.
Cleary a Paladin with those rolls.
My partner has that kind of luck.
As a DM I use the roll method, and my mercy is always reroll 1's and on reroll on a 2. For a live game this avoids someone having a 3 in a stat as 6 becomes the lowest possible stat, likewise 18 is the max.
I also like the roll in order method.
Str: 12
Dex: 9
Con: 8
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 14
And the not used anymore (Com): 11
Now take those stats and figure out what class or be daring and roll for it:
Now for class and species
Class: 16 reroll if higher than 13, or pick from the non standard D&D classes.
Species: 16 reroll if higher than 16, or pick from older content or non standard species.
Ok this is what random said:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/157481516
note:
14- Gunslinger, 15- Moster Hunter 16- Illrgger, 17 Blood Hunter ...
For others, it's not that important, except that random rolled stats can make for characters who distort the group dynamics because of their stats.
If you don't want a stat lower than 6, I'd suggest using a rolling method that makes it impossible. 2d6+4, for instance. It's higher variance than 3d6, but doesn't allow for the extreme lows or highs.
(I'm of the opinion that, if you're rolling stats, anything in the range ought to be an option. I've seen people here arguing that a character with a 3 stat is literally unplayable, and if that was supposed to be the case, it shouldn't be possible to end up with a character with a 3 stat.)
Variance is the real problem with randomly rolled characters, where one player ends up with significantly high or low stats, and it affects people's play experience. While 5e lets people improve their stats over time, the subsystem isn't designed for it -- the interesting feat vs. ASI tradeoff breaks down at both ends, where either you're taking the fun, interesting abilities because you don't need the stat boosts, or you need the stat boosts, so the fun abilities are off the table.
But there are ways to do random stats while reducing or eliminating the inter-character variance. The simplest would be to assign the standard array at random. One could also keep randomly choosing which stat to boost through the point system until you're out of points. (Although that approach needs something to avoid overly-flat distributions, most likely by having a bunch of large chunks of boosts up front.)
(And, of course, there's nothing requiring using the standard standard array or point systems.)
if you are quoting me, then read the post fully.
Always reroll 1's means the lowest stat is a 6 on 3d6. 2d6+4 mathmatically is 6-16 while 3d6 always reroll 1s is 6-18. As a DM I have no issue with a player starting the game with a 20, as I know they will never have the kind of growth they expect and if they mid max that hard there will be a weakness I can and will exploint often. I am a fan of targeting dump stats with status effects.
I think it was earlier in the thread (perhaps when it was still a fresh one) when someone said they'd have one set of rolled stats and all players used that rolled array; perhaps DM rolled in front of the players. That would eliminate the inter-player variance while also keeping the "rolled stat" randomness people (claim they) want.
in the end that is what the point buy and array really are, prerolled stats. While yes this does level the characters out to a degree, what it really does is remove the randomnes Even if the DM rolls the array before the game, it's still removing chance. if the DM rolls low, then it's a lowpower game, if the DM rolls high it's a mid max game. That isn't the same as an organically random game.
Take the recent D&D film, the Sorcerer who was at least level 9 at the end of the film clearly he had low stats all around. While the Barbarian girl had mid max stats, plus high wisdom. The MC the eloquence bard he had mid stats but they were fairly consistant across the board. (Note not going off the D&D character sheets, but based on how they preformed in the film)
In the end as a DM I want a mix with my players because you get interesting RP and dynamics that way, the wizard who' is just a nerd and bad at everything, the Paladin who's good at almost everything but as dumb as a fencepost, and the thief who's basically just a random guy trying to survive. I litterally get this interaction at my table all the time. Hells my previous campaign the Barbarian had the highest Int score... meanwhile the Warlock wanted to always get the party into fights. It was histerical how it happened. Of corse this was because the players were all small beast species. So basically Tiny Cute monsters vs the Multiverse. You get these kind of games when you let the random roll for roleplay.
Can you get close with an array, yes technically you should, but the mindset starts off very differant. Players doing an array tend to avoid randomness in the game, they calculate the dice averages, worry about build design, plan their build specifically from 1~17. they have a diagram of how they want to approach each fight. It all becomes chess with a dice at that point.